Mid-Ohio Valley Tomatoes

[reed]

I've been reviewing all the stuff in the other topics about planning what to grow, how to go about crossing it, what to hope will come out of it and so on. And about the exerted stigmas and so on. I hope you will help me out on the planning because a good bit depends on when a tomato flower actually gets pollinated. Here is another picture from a few years ago.


What do you all think? Is this tomato flower pollinated at the time the photo was taken? If it isn't pollinated at this point, then it will be easy to do a lot of what I want to do.
 

[William Schlegel]

I've been reviewing all the stuff in the other topics about planning what to grow, how to go about crossing it, what to hope will come out of it and so on. And about the exerted stigmas and so on. I hope you will help me out on the planning because a good bit depends on when a tomato flower actually gets pollinated. Here is another picture from a few years ago.


What do you all think? Is this tomato flower pollinated at the time the photo was taken? If it isn't pollinated at this point, then it will be easy to do a lot of what I want to do.
 

I think that one might be pollinated. Maybe would need to catch it a day or more earlier.

When the stigma sticks out like this (exsertion) it is often the case that it is receptive to pollen before pollen is released. The flower though will look really fresh and new, not fully unfurled.

[Roland]

The flower on the picture above will have good pollen at this moment.

Check in this video when the flower have not yet pollen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a9Pa4gV4HU

[Justin Jardinier]

I hope you will help me out on the planning because a good bit depends on when a tomato flower actually gets pollinated.

Here's another example, using tweezers:

https://youtu.be/9Rdt_ymzTIM?si=BGkcacbzB2ZrJXak

He cuts the anther cone, but often that step is not necessary, with the big ones of yours it can probably be pulled off, as a whole or in parts. Some people even use their fingers - I do with larger flowers. With small flowers like some pimps of other small flowered species, some of them are so delicate that the style often comes off with the anther cone, so for those, I cut the anther cone in aa somewhat similar way to how he does it but usually not right at the base, I leave a bit more of the anther cone for support and basically make it artificially very exserted. That gives more risk of self-pollen contamination but it does usually seem to work well, though I have usually done that indoors.

I also have very sharp needle-nosed tweezers, which are great for inserting into the anher cone and drawing up from the base, to split it open, taking care not to damage the style in the process. With your big open flowers that should not be necessary but I find this very useful for some flowers. That way, I can then start to pull out the anther cone piece by piece, or sever half or more way down to make the style very exserted, where just pulling the whole thing may damage a thin delicate style. Whereas for some, pulling the anther cone off whole works fine, although sometimes to aid that I insert each one of the needle-like ends of the pair of tweezers into the anther cone, skewering it in such a way that I can then pull it off in a very controlled direction, to avoid snapping off the style which can happen if pulling it off at a bad angle. This also ensured I am not putting any pressure on the style, which could result in pulling it off.

You don't have to take in all that I have said. The main way to learn is take in a bit, then just try a few times. If they all fail, come back to the videos or what people have written for inspiration and then try again. It's actually not very difficult with domestic tomatoes.

You might also want some tags. Indoors I use tiny paper price tags on thin cotton string, but outdoors you will want something waterproof - I found some small plastic ones that I cut down even smaller, I wanted them to be very light - and a pen (I use a thin garnering pen that has ink that withstands UV light and is waterproof) to write the male and female on it and I write the date too, but not necessary. So my tag might read for example:
F: Mr Stripey
M: pimp volunteer
12.16

I tie the tag on peduncle, is that what it's called? The stem part that remains attached to the tomato after it has been picked Not too tight since it will expand as it grows - I put a kind of loop that can be pulled apart by growth but doesn't fall off. This makes it easy come harvest, with the details all there written.

Some people just tie coloured string around it, and have a colour system. I make too many crosses for that but did do that with another crop where I only made few cross types. Again if you do, take care about UV, no good using string/thread with a colour code and then have the colours bleached by the sun!

[William Schlegel]

I use the paper price tags on string outside as well as inside. I have an arid climate though and I write on them with a permanent garden marker.

[Kadence Luneman]

If you have any bits of tyvek house wrap I've heard it's good for tags in the garden.
Different colored yarn.
Different colored twist ties.
Little sale tags on string, write on it then tape over to waterproof.
I've seen people use scotch tape alot with taping squash flowers for hand pollinating. See if writing stays on it.

[Justin Jardinier]

I use the paper price tags on string outside as well as inside. I have an arid climate though and I write on them with a permanent garden marker.

Oh, yes I was wondering if they might work if in a dry climate. I had a couple on from inside that still hadn't ripened when taking those 2 plants outside so I left them on, and they seemed fine but then one day I saw the surface had disintegrated, probably due to rain. It literally crumbled! I guess they use some kind of powder to coat the surface. It's a pity because one was with an important tomato and I still don't know what the cross was - I had a guess but the F1 isn't seeming my guess was right. So, at least in my climate with these particular paper tags, I won't be risking it again! At least my outdoor plastic tags should be reusable - I am hoping to clean off the ink with alcohol and be able to use them next year.

Tyvek, nice idea! I made my wallet from Tyvek, it's so strong and light, and waterproof.

[Steph S]

Roland's video link is really great to answer that question, what stage of flower to use for a cross.  Very thorough discussion with lots of examples.
It's not difficult to remove the sepals, petals, and anther cone at that stage - everyone has probably broken a few stigmas by mistake but with lots of flowers on a tomato plant, lots of room to practice. I use my fingernails, no special tools. Once sepals and petals are nipped off, I'll pinch out a section of the anther cone, at which point the stigma is clear, and the rest of the cone can be pushed back and removed.

If there's a cross I really want, I will always do it twice as a backup, in case one was damaged.  I usually do two in the same cluster if possible, and then I just tag the cluster.  Removing the sepals is key, because when the fruit swell up, you know which one is crossed because of the lack of sepals, no mixups.

I often find that the stigma is not fully receptive at the optimal time for removing the cone, but will fully mature in a day or two, and when it does, there is a well developed sticky knob on top which the pollen will stick to.  Sometimes you can see how the end of the stigma has gotten bigger over a few days.  The for sure mature sign is that it makes a clear line when you drag it through pollen.  I usually pollinate the same day of removing the cone, regardless, but I repeat it for two more days, collecting fresh pollen each day from several flowers if possible.

Good luck with your project!

[reed]

Thanks for all the good info and the video links. They make it look easy enough that maybe I can do it. I have some small tools that will probably work as long as my fat stubby fingers and bifocal glasses allow it. I have some old sunglasses to use to collect pollen but if that doesn't work, I'll take whole flowers, open them up and tap the anthers directly on the mother flower.
 
I was going to just use the PL varieties as mothers because successful crosses to Rl types will be easy to find the next year but If I practice and it seems to be working, I'll use some RL mothers too. All of the PL except for one will be new in my garden so I don't know yet if they belong here at all. Most of the large beefsteak heirlooms, especially the yellow/red ones do grow well here, but not all of them do and no way to know except by planting them. I also don't know yet if they have similarly open flowers.
 
I'm not too worried about the tags. I like the bright colored ribbon, only I cut it lengthwise to only about a half inch wide. You can loop it into a loose knot and just slip it over the flower and then tighten. That works much better for me than putting it around a stem first and then making the loop. I wasn't really planning on much actual recording of parents, but mostly just to make sure someone doesn't pick and eat my crosses, I'm already changing my mind on that because of how many I'm going to try to do.
 
So far I've ordered three new ones, Yellow Brandywine (76 days) and UTV Brandywine (72 days) from Southern Exposure and Hillbilly (85 days) from Seed Savers Exchange. They are all potato leaf. The UTV Brandywine is very interesting, the catalog description says this "OTV Brandywine 72 days. (Indeterminate) [Named and released by Dr. Carolyn Male and Craig LeHoullier, editors of Off the Vine (OTV), heirloom tomato newsletter. Bred from an accidental cross of Yellow Brandywine and an unknown red beefsteak.] Produces a large percentage of usable attractive tomatoes, relatively free of defects, averaging 12 oz. Excellent potato leaf foliage cover. 6-8 ft. tall plants. "

I'll probably get still more of the big slicers as they are our favorites, but I'm short on sauce tomatoes. Utah Heart is fantastic, but it is the only one I have or at least the only one I've grown for several years. I have old, but good seed so I think I'll try to cross it to Particularly Productive Rutgers (PPR), its flower is the one in the picture. Also going to get some modern hybrids and am looking at one called Supersauce from Burpee. And also from Burpee, Better Boy, which is on the Cornel list as having late blight resistance.
 
I think in the long term I want to decrease the DTM overall so I will try to get that started with Early Girl and maybe dwarf Early Girl. I've grown them both before and they do well and so do their volunteer descendants. I don't think I want to mess with any very short season types from cold or short season climates. All those I've tried seemed to dry up or melt down or taste nasty.

And to finish it off I guess maybe I should see about bringing in a little more late blight resistance. I'll dust off some old F2 and F3 seeds of Iron Lady (yuck) and Plum Regal. I say yuck on Iron Lady because it tastes bad but maybe that can be fixed. Plum Regal isn't all that great either except it dries easily and tastes much, much better after it does. A number of other tomatoes on the Cornel list are noted to have late blight resistance so I may get a couple more too.

 

[William Schlegel]

I've heard good things about Purple Zebra F1 and Galahad F1 on here so have now made crosses with both.

[reed]

I think I will pick up some of the Galahad for all that disease tolerance and it's just 69 DTM. I don't know right off how I'll work it in, maybe with the sauce subproject, try to cross it with Utah Heart. Sounds like a nice stockpile of its F2 seeds might not be a bad thing to just, have on hand. I bet it doesn't have open flowers though, that's a bummer that would have to be fixed later because I also want the promiscuous pollination just not because of SI. I think that might be fairly easy with the big tomatoes and their big open flowers. I'm not as optimistic with some of the F1s like Early Girl. If I recall they have tightly closed flowers, but I'll deal with that later.

Another question: Concerning the F1s, especially Galahad. What are the pros and cons of going ahead and crossing them with mine this year? Or growing them growing out for a generation or two before crossing with mine? 

[Justin Jardinier]

And to finish it off I guess maybe I should see about bringing in a little more late blight resistance. I'll dust off some old F2 and F3 seeds of Iron Lady (yuck) and Plum Regal.

How was their performance with late blight, compared to your Mr Stripey and your sauce tomato?

Another question: Concerning the F1s, especially Galahad. What are the pros and cons of going ahead and crossing them with mine this year? Or growing them growing out for a generation or two before crossing with mine? 

I don't know enough to say except that for late blight, it's homozygous for PH-2 and PH-3 so you will get heterozygous for all your F1, whereas with Purple Zebra being heterozygous already, only 1 in 4 will get that. Some people are working on dehybridizing Purple Zebra but I don't know what progress they've made yet. Other disease resistances, maybe Galahad is heterozygous, I don't know.

[William Schlegel]

It's a good question about the dehybridizion. To let it self a few years or keep crossing? I struggle with that same question. I think some of the guys in Europe have late blight pressure strong enough, dependable enough, to select for late blight resistance reliably. I think they have a shot at low cost dehybridization of these tomatoes. I think personally I've settled for putting it into the mix. Late blight resistance is a trait that could be useful sometime! I could pay for a set of tests each year to guide that. Another possibility might be to just keep crossing it into the mix every few years.

You might be somewhere in the middle. Maybe just enough disease pressure to keep those genes in the mix.

Dehybridization is a safer route in some ways. I like having my own crosses in that mix which is why I've chosen to at least initially cross with the crosses. I have a lot of hope for a cross I made last year: it is a F1 hybrid of Galahad F1 x (Mission Mountain Morning x Purple Zebra F1) now that could be worth the genetic testing fees while it segregates. I also think it could be great fun to make even more crosses with that!

One way to go would be to plant

[Justin Jardinier]

It's a good question about the dehybridizion. To let it self a few years or keep crossing? I struggle with that same question. I think some of the guys in Europe have late blight pressure strong enough, dependable enough, to select for late blight resistance reliably.

I just had a thought. It's in 3 parts:
1) For those of us with enough LB, we can dehybridise heterozygous LN resistance, or cross with homozygous and bread to homozygosity in a few generations. But either way, the other disease resistances could be harder to retain, depending on the pressure for those diseases.

2) Work could be done by a group of people either on dehybridising or working to keep resistances in a specific cross, by the group. Suppose for example that the subject has 5 resistances, and 5 members each have one of those diseases severely in their area. They could all select for their disease in the first year of selection, then send the seeds to everyone else, where they all get selected the next year. I'm not sure how many years it would take but potentially if each time all plants that did well were again sent to everyone, this might work quite well.

3) For people who are within a region (like maybe EU, or US?)in which live plant material can be sent, this could potentially be sped up (or number of plants to grow decreased) by clones being grown out for example by growing a plant early indoors, then making cuttings and get them rooted (or do air layering method?) then sending them out. Not sure how practical that is but that way, the same plant could be tested for every disease at once, if every disease is present in the region.

In a way, even in point 2, the survivor populations are being tested in every area, just always a year behind. It would be less complicated but take I guess more time, and I guess require more space. But either feel to me like could be valuable to try?

I guess another approach would be to acquire the diseases and test seedlings. LB can be stored, so shouldn't be too hard to do with that. I have no idea about the other diseases. Nor whether there might be some special protocols necessary to prevent their spread, like in a prepared greenhouse or indoor room or something. If (or when) I had/have more space, I would love to get into doing such testing. It seems like it could be very advantageous to be able to test large numbers of seedlings, as opposed to smaller numbers of plants for a whole year and maybe not even get the disease that year. I guess one could even do series of tests over the course of a couple of months over winter, with batches of seeds, and then keep the survivors alive either to make more seeds for later field tests for full conditions, or keep them alive until Spring. Could save so much time to get the specific disease resistances locked in and leave more time and space for selecting for flavours, tolerance of heat or cold or general neglect etc. for the outdoor season.

[Steph S]

Do I understand correctly, that Ph2 and Ph3 are different alleles at the same locus?
If so, dehybridizing without marker assisted tech means you will likely lose one or the other and end up with homozygous Ph2 or 3, if selecting for LB resistance in your area, depending on the prevalence of one race of LB or the other.

WRT your plans Reed, if you grow out the F1 (such as Galahad) first, your F2 of the hybrid will have a mix of LB genetics, some will be Ph2 only, some Ph3, and some heterozygous (about half of the plants). You will have to be at the season stage when LB strikes to figure out which one has the best resistance, and use it in your cross.  The big problem with this is that crossing during the blight stage of the season has a higher risk of failure just because fruit may not mature or you may not get pollen at the time you want it (if your local parent is going down). 
If you cross your local favorites with the eg Galahad F1, you can do that early season before blight, and then your crossed F1 will be an equal mix of heterozygous for Ph2 or heterozygous for Ph3.  This would make it easy to select for the one or other Phx that is most effective against your local race of LB.  In the F2 generation, 3/4 of your plants should have resistance - IDK if the homozygous Phx plant will stand out as even more resistant in any way but the hope is that you can select and end up with a homozygous Ph2 or 3.

IDK about variability of LB race in a location from year to year.  I suspect the prevalent race would tend to be the same, except in case that the other is introduced and becomes dominant.  But I am guessing.

Still if you end up with a homozygous resistant Ph2 or 3 adapted to the local LB race, and it then changes, you can repeat the process for the new LB and get a second line homozygous for the second Phx gene.  For that purpose I would keep some of the F1 eg Galahad seed, to reintroduce the second gene as needed.

Again I am making the assumption that in a given season the LB prevalent is one race or the other, and the advantage of the heterozygous F1 plant is that it will resist whichever race turns up.

The project of trying to select for heterozygous plants might not be realistic without marker assist, if the assumption about one or other LB race being prevalent is correct. You will not have selection pressure for both genes at the same time.  Also, selecting for heterozygous, if possible, will always mean that your subsequent generation has 1/4 plants with no resistance (if a single gene is resisting a single race of LB) or 1/2 of plants with no resistance if both genes were actually necessary in the same season.

If the race of blight does vary year to year, then having two homozygous lines for Ph2 and Ph3 would allow you to make your own hybrids with assurance they are heterozygous and resistant to both races.