Searching for parthenocarpic tomato

[Alex]

Oregon Spring is very sour, not my taste at all. But it grows great for me and tolerates heat well.

Favor could be improved by crossing it with Mexican honey, Galapagos hybrid, or Matt's tomato, or something else that is heat-tolerant and tasty.

[Brent M]

Hi all.  I see I'm a member.  I don't remember signing up.  Age maybe?  Lol.  So, was out having pizza and a couple beers as I do occasionally.  Whilst there, I do my often-Googled searches on "Parthenocarpy and Tomato" because I want to see if there's anything new on the horizon that can rival my work and I'm alone so why not.  That's when I came across this particular thread.  I've been working with phenomenal parthenocarpy for about 10 years.  Most of my proof is documented and I was wondering if any of you have heard of me?  Brent Montgomery from Arkansas.  If my work is of interest, I'd be happy to start a new thread.  When I post in forums about my work, it often leads to unfruitful conversation by folks not in the know, but I'm at the point now where I could use some feedback for non-action in the tomato world related to parthenocarpy.  Will answer anything with utmost transparency.  I've got a ton of knowledge on the subject especially related to my gene pat-b.  New thread or should I just go away?

[whwoz]

New thread is sounding good Brent M.  Some knowledge folks here and good honest conversation is always appreciated.

[Adrian]

Fruits almost without seeds seem a good idea!
I have noted that varietys with long fruits contains less seeds.

[Alex]

I found information on the tomatoville forum that Cold Set is heat tolerant, so I'll look into it.

This variety of tomato does not survive in my climate.

[Alex]

Hi Brent,
Do you have anything to test? I have tested many parthenocarpic tomatoes and they do not produce fruit or survive in my climate. Exception is "Oregon spring" and only in spring.
It is very difficult to get Severianin tomato, there is no success.

[Brent M]

Hi Brent,
Do you have anything to test? I have tested many parthenocarpic tomatoes and they do not produce fruit or survive in my climate. Exception is "Oregon spring" and only in spring.
It is very difficult to get Severianin tomato, there is no success.

I am considering field trials and that would include several places in the US that have extreme temps.  I've trialed Oregon State University (OSU) tomatoes against mine--Oregon Spring and others.  Severianin is the pat-2 source of OSU's work (and other places in the world).  There's a reason they're no longer working on parthenocarpy.  It's not good at all.  I've trialed against mine.  My tomatoes would grow where you live no doubts, but if I do field trials, they must be contracted trials where I have access.  Hang tight; they're coming.

[Brent M]

This variety of tomato does not survive in my climate.

I've trialed several heat/cold set varieties against mine; mostly heat set.  It really seems to be a...well, flexing of the truth.  These varieties are still tied to the viability of pollen.  The tomato ovary still has to be pollinated with successful fertilization to grow.  Good parthenocarpy doesn't have to be pollinated.

[Alex]

Not only parthenocarpy is important, but also excellent taste. Among parthenocarpic tomatoes, I have never met tasty ones. In my climate, parnenocarpic tomatoes either do not survive or bear 1-2 tasteless fruits. Oregon spring bears 10-20 sour fruits, but this is also very little. At the same time, wild tomatoes live 8-9 months, bear fruit for half a year, bear hundreds of fruits and are tasty.
I tested all wild tomato species and about 500 cultivars. Not a single cultivar tomato is on winners list, only 10 wild ones.
Therefore, it is unlikely that your tomatoes will win.

[Brent M]

Not only parthenocarpy is important, but also excellent taste. Among parthenocarpic tomatoes, I have never met tasty ones. In my climate, parnenocarpic tomatoes either do not survive or bear 1-2 tasteless fruits. Oregon spring bears 10-20 sour fruits, but this is also very little. At the same time, wild tomatoes live 8-9 months, bear fruit for half a year, bear hundreds of fruits and are tasty. Therefore, it is unlikely that your tomatoes will win.

Happen to be up.  Insomnia.  I'm not sure what "unlikely to win means", but I read doubts in your response so I'll address the concern of taste.  Oregon Spring is a pat-2 breeding from Oregon State University.  As I'd mentioned, I trialed it and several others from OSU against mine--specifically my lines Donovan and Brandybear over a few years.  I've actually trialed over 100 varieties against mine in the past decade from all the top OPs to fancy hybrids.  Anyway, back to topic.  My lines are a new form of parthenocarpy referred to as pat-b and is not expressed from the same location as pat-2 on the genome.  In fact, pat-2 expression is often said to be more than a single gene in many papers which explains why it's so hard to breed with.  Pat-2 generates negative pleiotropic effects (abnormalities) in the plants.  According to my conversation with Professor Myers, breeder at OSU, it's why parthenocarpy has been been discontinued despite being a Baggett priority back in the day.  In my trials, OSU lines were far inferior in every way. It certain conditions, some of the OSU lines are ok, according to some testimony, but there's an environmental caveat to that--the the PNW area and early in the year. So, I agree with you that pat-2 parthenocarpy isn't good news as I've validated.  I'm not sure what parthenocarpic varieties you've tried, but outside of OSU, there aren't any I'm aware of so I'm not comfortable disparaging other forms you may have tried that I haven't heard of.  Can you tell me the varieties?  If there are others, I certainly want to trial them.  As far as my lines, they're extremely tasty.  In fact, I'd say top-tier, and in my humble opinion, better than any other I've tasted.  For example this year, my flagship cherry tomato "Brent" brixed at 16 and my flagship slicer "Brandybear" brixed at 8. For those that don't know brix is an indicator of fruit quality with higher levels scoring higher in taste...most of the time.  In my lines, I call describe it "concentrated" tomato flavor.  My videos are public and go more in depth on all this as it's where I record visuals, tests, trials, grows, etc.  I do believe there is a correlation between taste and pat-b.  Some say lack of seeds in fruits imparts a better taste as nutrient reserves are not allocated to seed production, but instead reside in the flesh.  We know the purpose of flesh is simply a covering to help disperse seed so there may be an animal "attraction" reasoning as to why.  Just a thought. I wish I could afford to have my lines quality tested clinically, but I must settle for taste tests.  Each year, it costs me thousands of dollars which is another reason I'm glad the testing phases are over.  To sum up, I promise you my lines are VERY tasty. 

I can understand that what I'm telling you may seem extraordinary being there's nothing I've said negative about pat-b.  I've done the work.  I show the fruit in videos in various climates.  Seedless fruit.  Seeded fruit, a seed-saving propagation concern.  I show the brix readings.  What I need is outside validation and testing which is why I'm considering forms of field trials in other locations by professionals.  That is tough and requries money if I were to pay for it to be done.  What I've tried to do is partner with someone who has resources to do all this.  This validation, however it may occur, is important.  I had thought that documenting it all would be enough of a lure for those wanting to "invest" or get involved.  Seems not at this point.  So, I've started telling everyone who'll listen all the time.  This forum is part of that.  I know the validation is important; otherwise, it's just me rambling off stuff that some will question (in a bad way).  I AM ALL IN FOR IT.  How?  If someone has access or knowlege on a good approach to go about it, I'm all ears.  Right now, it's falling on deaf ears.  I've talked with seed companies, major ag, universities who have breeding programs, and even our government.  I even wrote a letter to the President for heaven's sake.  For me, the hard part is over--the work.  I've proven that it can be bred into all types of tomato.  I've proven it doesn't affect the plants in a negative way structurally.  I've trialed it extensively in every environment I could muster, and in those trials, controls were used (other lines) side-by-side.  My proof is simply video documentation.  I have lots of it and it can be watched over a long period of time.  I speak to what I see, what I think, and why I'm doing it.  I've had it tested genetically.  Do I have dishonest motivations?  LORD, to what end?  But, some think so and have said so.  I've been kicked off of forums.  Well one forum, Tomatoville, and one Facebook group to which I can't remember the name.  I've had people who don't know anything about me, or pat-b, try to argue with me.  Blows me away, everytime, and it's very discouraging.  Why not ask a question instead?  Express doubts through questions needing clarification.  Give me a chance to address your concerns.  I don't have to be here or in public at all.  I'm not selling tomato varieties.  The lines I speak to are part of the work and not for sale.  I am here for the last part of this whole deal, getting it out there.  I wrote this paragraph because of this gentleman's comment.  What has happened in the past is that "piling on" nature of some folks can be quite damaging to positive conversation.  It redirects conversation from good back-and-forth to taking sides and posturing.  I don't understand the nature of it honestly, but I see it all the time in social media.  I'd rather just leave as it's counter-productive to the truth and my goals.  All I'm saying is please ask questions instead of poking at me if you feel a desire to poke at me that is.  In this comment, all was fine until the last sentence which is why I wrote this paragraph.  Just ask, "How do they taste?  To me, that's very important."  In the end, it may certainly be that pat-b genetics won't "win", but it my little rational mind, why not?  It only helps.

Just a quick comment on "wild tomatoes".  Are you referring to small tomatoes like "Matt's Wild", "Coyote", or something similar?  Maybe another species?  I do know cherry tomatoes set fruit better than larger tomatoes. Some places can't grow bit tomatoes.

[Alex]

Can you tell me the varieties?

Siletz (not tasty, 1-2 fruits), Gold Nugget (no fruit), Cold Set (not survive), Oaxacan Jewel (no fruit), Oregon Spring (sour, spring only), De Barao (not survive), Legend (1% survives, no fruit).

Some say lack of seeds in fruits imparts a better taste as nutrient reserves are not allocated to seed production, but instead reside in the flesh.

This makes sense.

To sum up, I promise you my lines are VERY tasty. 

Then great!

Are you referring to small tomatoes like "Matt's Wild", "Coyote", or something similar?

Yes. Texas Wild cherry is the best producer, early, long-lived. "Galapagos tomato" (S. lycopersicum x S.cheesmaniae) is also quite good. We have our own native wild tomato - Guam wild cherry tomato/Local cherry tomato, it is very tasty, but it cracks, which is solved by picking it at beginning of ripening, and it will ripen in 2 days after such picking without cracking. Plus various wild small tomatoes, such as Kamatis na ligaw.
So far I have achieved fruiting from mid-November to early May, then it is very hot until mid-July. In mid-July, a new wave of tomato fruiting begins, but it is difficult for them to survive extremely hot period to begin fruiting in mid-July. In this regard, Sara's wild tomato survives and fruits in mid-July, so I consider it as a source for crossing in order to increase heat resistance.
Coyote does not survive.

I do know cherry tomatoes set fruit better than larger tomatoes.

Large tomatoes do not set fruit for me.
I just really doubt that your tomatoes will produce fruit in my climate. Experience shows that presence of wild tomato genes is necessary, with rare exceptions. You can certainly try. I think that you could potentially achieve fruiting by crossing with a Texas wild cherry tomato for improvement.
On what original variety did mutation occur?

[Brent M]

Siletz (not tasty, 1-2 fruits), Gold Nugget (no fruit), Cold Set (not survive), Oaxacan Jewel (no fruit), Oregon Spring (sour, spring only), De Barao (not survive), Legend (1% survives, no fruit).This makes sense.Then great!Yes. Texas Wild cherry is the best producer, early, long-lived. "Galapagos tomato" (S. lycopersicum x S.cheesmaniae) is also quite good. We have our own native wild tomato - Guam wild cherry tomato/Local cherry tomato, it is very tasty, but it cracks, which is solved by picking it at beginning of ripening, and it will ripen in 2 days after such picking without cracking. Plus various wild small tomatoes, such as Kamatis na ligaw.
So far I have achieved fruiting from mid-November to early May, then it is very hot until mid-July. In mid-July, a new wave of tomato fruiting begins, but it is difficult for them to survive extremely hot period to begin fruiting in mid-July. In this regard, Sara's wild tomato survives and fruits in mid-July, so I consider it as a source for crossing in order to increase heat resistance.
Coyote does not survive.Large tomatoes do not set fruit for me.
I just really doubt that your tomatoes will produce fruit in my climate. Experience shows that presence of wild tomato genes is necessary, with rare exceptions. You can certainly try. I think that you could potentially achieve fruiting by crossing with a Texas wild cherry tomato for improvement.
On what original variety did mutation occur?

Siletz and Oregon Spring are OSU lines which we discussed.  You can add Legend to that as well.  It's also OSU and one I first trialed.  All 3 of these stem from Severianin, a Russian cultivar that originated the pat-2 parthenocarpic trait most have tried to exploit. 

All of the rest of the varieties you mention aren't attributed to parthencarpy meaning their weakness is still the viability of pollen fertilizing the ovary...and pollen is fickle at best because it requires ideal temperatures. 

As I understand it, Gold Nugget has some mention of parthenocarpy, but I've not seen research supporting that nor seedless fruits by anyone, anywhere.  It's mentioned as a parthenocarpic variety that has "some parthenocarpic fruit, somtimes, in some areas".  I don't consider it really parthenocarpic.  I believe it requires environmental cues, like daylight hours or certain temperatures, to trigger hormones to a degree IF pollination occurs, so essentially it's "environmental" parthenocapry at best.  This is scientific research that is not my own.  That statement requires a bit of clarification.  Pollination is defined as pollen transfer from the anthers to the stigma.  It OFTEN leads to fertization, but not always.  What it may do, at times, is trigger the ovary growth hormone bypassing flower drop that usually occurs when the ovary isn't fertilized. In one of my trials, the OSU cultivar "Legend" would not set a single fruit for months in a controlled environment--no wind, no pollinators, me not pollinating the flowers, and in a lower light "winter" grow.  This was in my grow room using heaters during the winter months.  Thousands of flowers and not one set fruit on Legend.  In that trial, I grew my cultivar "Donovan" right next to Legend the exact same way.  Almost all of Donovan's flowers set normal, full sized large fruit to maturity and none had seeds. 

An indication you're not working with parthenocarpy is fruit always having seed or production stops for any reason for a healthy plant.  As we discussed cherry tomatoes in general do better than large tomatoes. 

What I'd love to see is folks like you giving it a go with pat-b.  These are often referred to as "hostile environments" in scientific papers.  Until that happens, I surely cannot say they will or won't.  I sure hope they will.  I've trialed some extreme temps and they always come through so I can't imagine putting effort into breeding outside of the trait just in case it may not work.  To me, that's introducing a negative without reason. 

[Tim DH]

Hi Brent,
     Thanks for joining the forum. I'm enjoying the conversation even tho' I haven't got much to contribute. My own growing environment is dominated by a cold dark start to the season. Once the plants actually get to flowering size we are usually alright. ... I might benefit from seedless toms for bottling, since I think that in long storage, seeds can give an unpleasant taint to the sauce.

     Regarding being banned from Tomatoville, from what I read elsewhere that is almost a badge of honour! I however never even got accepted for membership, but that's all irrelevant now as that forum appears to have finally folded for ever.

Tim DH

[Alex]

Brent, welcome to Guam. Tomatoes start bearing fruit in mid-November, so they should be planted early in September-October depending on when they start flowering. Pests are mostly aphids, which are quite resistant to pesticides and adapt to them. Pesticides need to be brought in, we don't have anything normal for aphids. I'm interested in testing your tomatoes.
And you're right that there are no normal, truly parthenocarpic seedless tomatoes.

[Adrian]

Hi Alex, for fight against aphids we have tried a solution with water and black soap. 1 tablespoon for 1,5 - 2L of water in a pulverisatior.For a better dilution the water must be a little hot.
Have you ladybug? You put a larva in the leafs of the infested plants.She will feast!
. It seem efficient for aphid don't able to fly but less for flyng aphids. Its not dangerous for the plant.

Small question for brent M.
What is the effect of the parthenocarpic  genetic at heterozygote condition?
Do you think that it seem interested if thoses varietys are crossed with big fruits varietys with low fruit setting?

Parthenocarpic varietys also seems adapted at green housse or shelter with low wind.