Garden Journal

[Jeremy Weiss]

An even smaller Pawpaw tree, with large fruit and things is probably possible to create.

Maybe a triloba/parvifolia cross would get you the shortness you want?

Alongside Poncirus trifoliata, I'd also like to grow Citrus australasica next to or near it.

Along with other relatives once I make a superior citrus. I've read that Microcitrus, is a subgroup that the Finger lime belongs to.

Poncirus belongs to another group, apart from the Kumquat group, and the lemon one.


Tropical growers told me that crossing species from different groups, is fine. But, mixing them altogether can create infertile plants.


Finger limes are hardy to around zone 8a.

They grow 6 - 25ft. Pots will produce smaller plants.


These aren't large trees compared to most commercial Citrus.

Flying Dragon, Poncirus could produce a smaller statured tree.

I'd prefer something larger than Flying Dragon, myself.

I'd probably keep the Finger Limes shape, and the "caviar" trait.

And select for disease and cold hardiness.

This is really simply personal advice, but I might suggest selecting AWAY from those finger limes that have brown when ripe fruit. The fact that their "caviar" is pinkish tinted can be nice, but I remember that, the one time I found a package of finger limes for sale in a market, I almost didn't buy it because there was a brown one in there, and I assumed that one had gone rotten and would soon spread to the rest of the package. 

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One tree I might consider for a food forest, if I had the room, is Yellowhorn, (Xanthoceras sorbifolium), since it is supposed to produce nice flowers AND edible seeds. 

[Garrett Schantz]

Brown when ripe may be bad then.

That's fine with me.


Yellowhorn, (Xanthoceras sorbifolium) - seems to be the sole member of its genus. It's in the same family as horse chestnut, maples, ackee and lychee.


Species being the only representative of their genus, usually indicates that there used to be other relatives which are now extinct. Making that a fossil species.


It seems like that species prefers a sunny location.

I do want to gather tulip poplars as well, they can can grow in some shade. Some neighbors have them. They look nice.


Sometimes I see Magnolia grandiflora grown as an ornamental. Or just seeded in random open areas.


I've also read that it probably had a larger range than it used to.

And that it has a lower fertility rate compared to species found on different continents. They prefer to intake pollen or whatever from other trees. But, they're usually not found in large stands or whatever.


Which could mean that the low fertility indicates a bottlenecking or something similar.

I don't know of a lot of things that eat their berries or even pollinate them, unless there's other flowering trees and things underneath or around them.

Plus the species prefers open areas, grows slow and its limited numbers in areas could mean that many things don't know to look for its berries or interact with it much.



Tulip trees, will grow in shade, they get nice flowers. They usually die in shade, at some point. They're pioneer species and make space for forests.


There's supposedly two species, one is from China, Vietnam (I'd consider island populations to be another species) and one from North America.

Both species have semi evergreen "varieties", found in warmer areas or specific locations. Types in Florida have longer taproots and handle drought better.


They're in the same family as Magnolias. Obviously they're less widespread than Magnolias and probably had more relatives at some point. There's actually fossils of relatives.


Pawpaws are also in the Magnoliales order. Magnolias and Liriodendron / Tulip trees are in that order - but their family on has two genera. Granted, Magnolias have over 200 species in their genus.


I figured something like that was the case because of the leaves and some other features.


Magnolia acuminata could be fun to grow and see if any hybrids can form. It also only grows in sparse locations, but it prefers to take in pollen or whatever from other trees.


There's a "Japanese Magnolia" in the yard as well. I am interested in attempting to pollinate it with a neighbors Magnolia grandiflora.


I sort of want to breed a Magnolia with faster growing long lived species.

Those seem to be the most successful species in Asia. And, I believe that without human intervention, our native types are going to hit a dead end.

Which that happens. Sure.




I've also considered a A. triloba x parviflora cross like you mentioned.

I'd prefer an intermediate sized plant. It may help with saving space, or breeding a purely ornamental hybrid.

I still want a type that's pollinated by beetles. But, I'd be interested in medium sized trees - Malus, Lemons / Oranges, Pawpaws and other things. I've seen Dwarf Pomegranates as well.


There's also obviously Dwarf Palmetto - related to taller relatives with which it can hybridize with.


Plus there's the Nanking cherry. It's closely related to some North American species.


I believe that medium sized trees or shrubs, are more superior to large or small ones.


They also reach maturity faster from seed, usually.


I'm also interested in grexes. Tree ones.


Some research reveals that Apple, pear and other grexes were more popular at some point.

With Asian pears, there are still mixes and things.


Tree breeding takes a long time.



Dwarf trees and things, would be great for just walking outside and grabbing some fruit from a small tree.

Medlar and things like Pawpaw, you don't just grab off a tree. But they're compact and convenient if you can make dwarf types.


And, most people don't need entire trees for themselves.

Maybe a few small ones / populations in a small area, fitting a grex. Different ages of trees - planted at different times.


Not grown side by side - intermixed with other things.


With the Trifoliate Orange, I'd also like a small tree or shrub that's also cold hardy and can be sent to others in the United States.


Chicago hardy fig, is already pretty short. There are actual dwarves as well.


An interspecific fig grex would be fun to grow - especially alongside Pawpaws, since they both attract flies and beetles or they can.

Figs lack any real pollinators in most areas. I've heard that some things can sometimes pollinate figs.


Plus fig wasps aren't everywhere.


There are species native to Africa and the like - bonobos and things eat their fruit.


There's also Avocado relatives which are dwarves and resistant to some newer diseases. And temperature species.


Growing smaller trees or shrubs close together, can be fine if they're not closely related.


These smaller trees, also won't produce a ton of shade.


Which means that they make better trees in mixed plantations.

I'd still recommend shrubs, berry ones and growing related species in nearby forests where related things are harvested.


Bananas could also be a fun woodland breeding project. Select for smaller seeds and make pink Bananas or grexes which are more disease resistant.

I've been researching some Banana relatives which are native to South America and Central America.

One species is from Honduras and parts of Florida and some warmer states. They're pollinated by bats, which also use the flowers to make nests - or the leaves.


It's probably possible to goad related species into pollinating Banana flowers, or attracting other things which are pollinating other species anyway.


Bananas actually prefer woodlands. They are less disease prone, prefer shade and they intake nitrogen and things from tree liter.



I could probably work on breeding cold hardier Bananas as well.



Not all of these would be woodland trees. But, figs can handle shade or full sun - especially if hybrids are involved.



Either way, this probably doesn't fit the garden topic.


Just future plans that will take awhile to get up and running.

[Jeremy Weiss]

Plus there's the Nanking cherry. It's closely related to some North American species.

I've heard good things about the three new cultivars of white fruited Nanking Cherry, whose fruit are supposed to taste better than the standard red one. I was pretty close to ordering some for my own yard in the spring, until I realized that, between the lack of space, the lack of sun, the time it would take to go from saplings to trees old enough to bear fruit and our horde of squirrels, chipmunks and birds would have no trouble eating any fruit they produce long before it was ripe enough to pick for our own use (I was able to enjoy the peaches from my tree for maybe one or two years; then the  moment the trunk and branches got thick enough to support a squirrels weight, every single one would be yanked off and have itself chewed through to get at the kernel by them while they were still hard and green*,) I'd never see the benefit from them.

ASSUMING Sacred Succulents gets any more in, like they said they might, I might give another shot to their Himalayan Mountain Ash (actually, a form of Sorb Apple). The first two saplings did BEAUTIFULLY here before the gardeners weed whacked them down (the third and last they left alone, but that one never really took off and died after about a year.) But that's a big "assuming" (if they're so far behind it is taking them six or so months just to get around to filling a basic seed order, getting something as time sensitive as a living tree is probably hopeless.)

And since I am in a climate that can take it, I'd contemplate adding a Japanese Flowering Ume/Mei plum, (Prunus mume)......IF I could find an example of the rumored ones that are sweet enough you can eat them RAW (as opposed to the standard kind, which you have to pickle into umeboshi or make into plum wine to consume, neither of which I like.)

In terms of shrubby berries, since you are 8a (as opposed to my 6b) you are probably JUST on the upper border of being able to grow Portuguese crowberry (Corema album)which is in the heather blueberry family. Not sure how they taste, but people do eat them, and there was someone who had seed on Etsy (whether they can be brought in I don't know, I got mine, but Customs has gotten a lot better since then.)

*Okay, the peaches were tiny, and not all that tasty (Hiawatha is usually grown for either its ornamental qualities of having purple leaves or for use as a rootstock than for its fruits.)but they were at least MINE.   

[Garrett Schantz]

I have been a bit concerned since I'm roughly an hour or so from Jackson - 40 ish minutes.

Some USDA maps say I'm Zone 8b based on my address.

Some of them are weird and say 8a.


Most years according to people here, it drops down to the 20F degree range at the lowest, but every few years there's a light frost.

And people grow Elephant Ears in swamps and things which I guess don't freeze over. They're invasive in this area.

Some neighbors had to burn their escapees.


Plus some zone 9 plants are grown as perennials here. A big frost killed some neighbors old shrubs and things - people said they'd never seen it this cold, the winter we come here - of course.



Either way, I have been taking an assumption that this could be closer to 8B like some maps say. It's hard to say with how everything is.


The roads were frosted over and people were banned from driving because they don't have salt trucks down here. Or encouraged not to do so. People were crashing and everything. I wouldn't even call what was on the roads, frost. I think it was only frosted for less than a day.

But then again I'm more used to that stuff.



I'm a little bit worried about growing some Prunus species and other things.


I also can't grow some types of blueberries and things.


Cherry trees require "Chill Hours." Some sour cherries are out, I can't grow them.

I prefer sweet ones anyway, and I also prefer not to grow Self compatible types.


Royal Lee, requires 300 chill hours. It can tolerate 200 chill hours and grow in Zone 10a as well.

Not self fertile - can be paired with Royal Minnie to assist with pollination.


Royal Rainier, only requires 400 chill hours.

Lapins, Bing, or Black Tartarian - recommended companions, as it's not self fertile.

"The fruits are large yellow cherries with a red blush which is not very common among cherries."



I've also been interested in flowering cherries from Japan.

Katsura trees are on a list of things to grow as well, just because they're technically living fossils. Two species in their genus, are from Japan.

Their genus is also the only member of their family that's still alive.


There used to be relatives all across the United States and elsewhere, at some point in time.


The trees supposedly smell like caramel when their leaves begin to drop.


I've been thinking up an area, of where nicely scented trees and nice looking trees along with a pollinator garden, are all around each other. Maybe I'd include Gardenias and Magnolias in that sort of place.


Make a nice relaxation spot.


Prunus emarginata and Prunus pensylvanica, are in Prunus subg. Cerasus.

That's the same subgenus as some flowering cherries.

Prunus serrulata and Yoshino cherry (Yoshino is a hybrid complex - some are made up of multiple species, more than two) - they'd be in than subgenus along with many other Japanese species.


Prunus cerasus and Prunus avium are both in this group as well. The sour cherry and the sweet cherry. Those two have many hybrids with one another.


Prunus maackii and Prunus serrula are also in that group.

They have really nice looking bark.



Now, Prunus emarginata - can be found in California and all sorts of places.


So, it's heat hardy and would probably do well over in Mississippi as well.

It's as supposedly crossed with Prunus avium, but their offspring has a low fertility and produces very few fruits.


To me, that's saying that they're fertile with one another and can produce offspring.

But one parent is very inedible.



I could probably create a more heat hardy Flowering or fruiting cherry tree.


A flowering one is very likely since I could have something nearly sterile and still have it produce flowers.


Also, diseases may eventually spread to flowering cherries and things or vice versa.


There's also only about two members of that subgenus, native to North America.

So, if these were ever separated into genera or whatever. That means there isn't a ton of these left, group wise.



Going back to the Nanking cherry.

It's in the same section as plums and things rather than cherries.

And then it has more subsections.

It's related to Prunus pumila from North America.


That is an interesting one.


There's a hybrid of it, with Prunus cerasifera. Which that one is from Europe and parts of Asia.

Prunus × cistena - the purple sand cherry. I bought a plant in Pennsylvania. It produces berries when pollinated - seems fairly fertile and you can grow out the seeds and obtain plants.


Lives about 20 years. But, because it makes edible fruits - it will likely self sow if you let it.


Prunus cerasifera has a hybrid with Prunus mume, called Prunus × blireiana.

Prunus spinosa, also seems related to Prunus mume and cerasifera.


Prunus pumila is in the same subgenus but not section - as Prunus cerasifera.



But, Sect. Microcerasus has Prunus pumila and Prunus tomentosa, the Nanking Cherry in it.



Using the Purple Leaved Sand Cherry to try and cross over to Nanking Cherry, may be fun.


I've also been wanting to try and cross Black cherry / chokecherry, over to other groups of things.

Even over to flowering types.


For one, I would like some disease resistant trees.

And ones that can self sow to some extent. I'd also still like large trees.


Nanking cherries almost always all taste good. And they fruit in a small period of time from seed.


I know that Beach plums can cross over to a lot of relatives, readily if their flowering times overlap.


Those could be fun to grow here too.


Either way I'm probably off topic.

[Garrett Schantz]

https://permies.com/t/40/139798/Garrett-Garden-Seedlings#1995460


I've been posting some images and other things here.

Not quite garden stuff either.


I've been cleaning out some wooded areas and picking things up.


When the previous land owner got old, I'm fairly sure that her kids and whoever just chucked things that couldn't be maintained anymore or weren't kept up with.


Seems like she and some others may have liked frogs.

[Garrett Schantz]

https://imgur.com/a/boLZ8Na

These may be roots from this species.

I was tossing sticks into larger piles - and limbs into a pile.

Box blades took out shrubs and things - I found these but not on or near any shrubs.



The flowers seem large to me. Didn't look like Jerusalem artichokes to me either.

[Garrett Schantz]

It seems like I'm a month behind on starting tomato seeds.

I was doing some other things lately.


So, new climate. Forgot whatever.




This means that I can probably start things outside. It's more or less zone 8.


I'd still start them now / immediately. Not too happy with myself.



I don't have cells planned out.



I have leftover Wildling, and BH Series seeds. Plus some exserted tiger.



Growing Green Ripper, Weight in gold and Jan's. There's also Saraev M-22, Aladdin's lamp and Bowling Pin.




Those would be my standard tomatoes.


I may grow Pruden's Purple and Eva Purple Ball, I have leftover seed.





As for the oddballs: Heirloom Reviews Woolly currant tomato, Arcanum Pink Cherry, Velvet red, Woolly blue wine, woolly kate yellow, douchoua pepper tomato, silvery fir tree, livingstons honor bright, reisetomate and some others.


Some of these are oddballs, because their foliage is fuzzy. Others have odd traits.



Some lesser oddballs: Garden peach, Wapsipinicon peach, Neon Peach and Fuzzy peach.


Most of these lack fuzzy foliage.



I have old leftover seed for Wagner blue green and Black bumblebee as well. Got Purple Smudge. Misplaced my old packet.

I forgot to order Sart Roloise seed.



I'm not forgetting about the wilds either. I have habrochaites. Not the neandermato strain. For some reason I don't think I've actually grown it yet.

Wild currant tomato from Peru and Alberto shatters. Same as usual. Maybe peruvianum. I have a few leftover seed.

Lot of seed was lost when I moved.



Mostly saved seed.



I may or may not try peppers. The seasons are longer here, but eventually you get into "too hot / scorching for transplants" down here.


I know that I can get away with the tomatoes. I may be transplanting them a lot earlier than I'd usually plan on, size / growth wise. And the production may be similar to what I'd get in PA.


But, it is what it is. I messed up with this.



I can probably start the goji berries as well.


Lycium andersonii - desert goji, Lycium berlandieri - Berlandier's Wolfberry, Lycium exsertum - Desert wolfberry, Lycium ruthenicum - Black goji, Lycium chinense, Goji berry.


Yellow goji would be nice as well. Many gojis can seemingly cross pretty freely. And they are perennials.


With the climate here, they'd likely flower late in the year here, or next year.


I may try to play around with cold hardy genetics in tomatoes and things here.


And I may try out Kangaroo apples again. I have leftover seed.

[Garrett Schantz]

I had two seed packets of Black Goji.

One, is from the experimental farm network. I believe that they got their seed from sheffields. So, the seeds could be from China for all I know.


Those seeds, are black. Or a dark brown.


My packet from tradewindsfruit, has yellow seeds, like Lycium chinese.



Lycium exsertum has dark yellow seeds, the same with Lycium berlandieri. Those are both from Tradewindsfruit.

Lycium andersonii, from Brian Laufer's online store, has sort of brown looking seed. I think it was slightly larger than the other species seed.



I also planted Physalis crassifolia. Plus pierce Lester ground cherry. Hopefully the ground cherries from last year, from this area or ones I tossed out to let them grow, return this year as well.




I still have cannibal tomatoes, and a few species of eggplant. I'll be doing those rather than peppers.


I could probably still get away with peppers. I'll just get some from the store this year.




I found a few scant leftover wild tomato seeds. Besides habrochaites, there's two or so seeds in some packet.


I'm probably going to sow them in the ground, and see what happens.


I found leftover seeds from Habrochaites x Pimp F2 and yellow pear shaped plants coming from one of j&l gardens Peruvianum or whatever it was.


I was lazy, didn't care for what I had and was busy with stuff at the time. The seeds over two years old now I think. Maybe.


I'd have to check on that, but I'll likely prepare an area for the seed. They're mixed together and I think that reisetomate and some things likely crossed with whatever, as well as Florida everglades.



I noted that my Wagner blue green seeds are from 2021. Sell by date is 12/21. So, those are from back when I was getting into blue tomatoes originally. Lot of old seed.


Black bumblebee was free seed.


Woolly blue wine and woolly kate yellow seem similar. For some reason I got seed for both.




I still had BH and Wilding seed as well.


But yeah. I got stuff planted.



The Lycium species should all be perennials here. There's two main Lycium species - the most popular ones. I only have one of those red ones.


I'd also like to obtain seed for yellow gojis at some point. They're considered to be edible when ripe.


Red ones usually don't taste too good.

[Garrett Schantz]

I also sowed some seeds in a semi prepared bed.


This was a garden bed or planter bed.


I moved weeds out of it last year and added a bit of soil, since the weeds pulled a lot of soil with them. Weedy shrubs which got over there at some point.



The seeds are from Solanum carolinense. I saved a few fruits (even when ripe, they stay and mostly dry on the plant, they seem to be perennials - make long branches which lean on other plants for support).



They're very susceptible to some form of powdery mildew.



I tossed the seeds there, just so that I can fully see how this grows. There was another type of "horsenettle" back in PA. It was more of a small thing, grows more upright.



Obviously, that bed is a mess. I planted some of the peruvianum seeds in there, along with a few other things which probably won't do much. Not enough seeds for things that'll make a proper population.


I'll likely use it as a spot to grow things as experiments or things in which I don't have much seed first.



I tossed some Pimp x Habro F2 seed there as well. Some American black nightshade. Yeah.


I normally wouldn't grow a bunch of Solanums together. Maybe that spot will work as a trap crop or whatever.




I'm likely going to get Sart Roloise, I'd like to grow litchi tomatoes here.



Kangaroo apples, I planted a hybrid type of Kangaroo apple. They pair well next to litchi tomatoes.


Plus having a pollinator area, is always nice.



I believe that HRseeds has Buffalobur and things.





Solanum carolinense is toxic. Eating one fruit probably wouldn't kill me, but yeah.


Ripe fruits seem less toxic than the fruit. I mean fully ripe. Yellow isn't ripe. These don't drop from the plant, they dry up. They seem to eventually pop open.



The ripe fruits and roots can be used medicinally. I don't recommend it.


But, if you're having urine / bowel issues, or some other problems. I guess it can be used for whatever. There's less toxic alternatives out there.

[Garrett Schantz]

Tradescantia virginiana grows out in the fields here. I think.

Some plants were up to my knees. Pretty tall. Ones allowed to grow without being mowed.


Tradescantia pallida (Unsure of what cultivar), was also growing outside here when we moved.



Some trees were cut down in a area with the Tradescantia pallida plants.


So, there's a ton of woodchips.



And there seems to be some Tradescantia volunteers. I'd assume that local animals / birds / bugs go for the flowers and seed pods.

https://imgur.com/a/Ec5sfYy



Theres some probable fennel and some sorta Solanum in there too.


I tried to plant some things there before we figured the trees were getting chopped.



Some of this could be grass.


But, I've been wanting to grow these two species side by side, because I saw a few oddly flowered plants out in the yard.


Odd plants.



Their flowering time overlaps. I saw that last year.



The native species, grows upwards / tall. It also resembles tall grass before it flowers. Likely cold hardy to some degree.



Tradescantia pallida, has large leaves. It grows all spindly, it's fairly low growing. The Purple leaves are neat.




I'd like to get a tall Tradescantia with larger leaves, so that people and myself can distinguish it from grass. Maybe a few overtones of purple here and there. Growing upwards / tall.



And maybe having it with a better cold hardiness / more varied flowering time.



I don't know if hybrids are possible, but some images on the imgur post, just before the Purple leaved plants, looked odd.

[Garrett Schantz]

I did end up planting eggplants and other things.

Upper Volta garden egg, Cannibal tomato, Solanum macrocarpon, Solanum lasiocarpum, Black beauty eggplant,Solanum stramnifolium - some hybrid kangaroo apples.

Planted those at around the same time as those other things.



I also decided today, to try and direct sow some peppers.


Mostly C. annums. I've realized that they can do well in Zone 8, direct sown.


Some other species. Maybe not.


Spacing may be weird. But their root system and other things should be interesting. I've always had decent luck with direct sown closer spaced plants.


I planted some Sugar Rush Peachy Striped, Aji de Colorado Alpino and Capsicum flexuosum, into the same row.

Or scattered row.



For a middle row, Murasaki, Perfect Sweet Italian Swarm Pepper and Mountain Roaster.


A third row, Capsicum exile (could be an incorrect name, got it as free seed before), Dwarf Aji Charapita and CGN 20800.



I seeded some others in another area, less seed. Alpine Poblano, Lofthouse Sweet Pepper Grex, Cañoncito and Doe Hill.


Less seed due to it being a smaller area.



If I need actual pepper plants, I'll buy some.


I don't fully expect these to do well, but this being USDA Zone 8. Some of these will likely be able to germinate, grow and reproduce.

I already have direct seeded tomatoes coming up. Including S. peruvianum, habrochaites and some hybrids.


The ground should get hotter before everything else does.


I believe that there's ample time to at least get some pepper production. I'm not in Texas or anything, but I had a "sure why not" sort of moment.


If it works, it works.




I've had some other ideas as well.

I won't get into Rubus suavissimus. I'm almost 100% not growing it, not this year. I'd need to source seed and whatever else.

Trifoliate Orange and Lemons, the same. I've been wanting to cross and grow a Lemon with trifoliate orange.


Decaisnea fargesii is another.



But, the important ones I'll be growing.

Mexican Sour Gherkin, Blue Butterfly Pea, Mandarina Lemon Balm (Maybe), Orangelo Thyme (Maybe), Limoncello Lemon Balm (Supposedly more like Lemon than lime), Blue Spice Basil and Red Roselle - which could possibly be hardy here.



And what else. Rhus typina. Staghorn Sumac. And possibly whatever is growing locally here.


Raindanceseeds is currently offering Rhus typhina, integrafolia, ovata, aromatica (two types or variations), trilobata.

I'm not getting all of those. Not this year, maybe they'll offer them again.



Two of the things I've mentioned, are Vining plants. Then there's some low growing, perennial to annual herbs.

All sorts of things, different families or genera.



These would be for drinks. Mainly.



I am going to be trying out an experiment.


I decided to try some old something lemonade, pink lemonade. From the store.

Drank it when I was little. It's a pink powder.


I'm not a huge fan of the lemonade and things found in stores. Dunno what it is about them.



I'd also like to mention. I'd be using Rhus species as lemonade or a lemonade replacement. It likely doesn't and never will taste exactly like lemonade.


I can probably grow lemons here. I'd still want to try and breed a cold hardier, seed grown Lemon.


And I'd prefer not to use ones from the store.



I've simply been hit with "all I have to drink for the next two weeks is water, unless I buy soda, something healthy but bad tasting or something very unhealthy."

That's usually what the options are. Healthy drinks found in stores like fruit juices don't have much filler / other things in them.

Or the healthy ones have sugar added to them - all sorts of stuff.



I'm probably better off making drinks at home.


So, I've listed quite a few things which can be dried.

Some of these are used to make decent tasting teas.

Lemon Balm can be added to smoothies, lemonade and other things.


Red roselle is used in quite a few drinks.

Blue butterfly pea flowers can be added to most teas, probably forms of lemonade as well.



The mentioned Rubus species would be nice. It's leaves can be used as a nice tasting artificial sweetener.

It also produces blackberries. You'd just use the leaves in small amounts, I'd assume.


You can also sort of prepare Rhus species, to make a powdered extract.


The same goes with blue butterfly pea and these other things.

You could make a "tea blend" that tastes akin to lemonade.



The Mexican sour gherkin - or "Cucamelon." I've had them before.

They don't taste much like cucumbers. There's not much sweetness, but there's a sour taste.



I've been thinking up ideas for the species and it's fruit.


They're very watery and small, hard skinned.

It's probably possible to make a little press, and juice these.

I don't think you'd need a lot of these, but I think they'd mesh well with these other things. Plus they'd impart some water content.



You probably couldn't dry it.


You could add strawberries or something else. I'd do those as specialties, because they aren't as healthy.


I myself, would likely combine maybe a few things like strawberries, mixed with the artificial sweetener rubus.


That way you're not intaking too many sugars or too much of an artificial sweetener.


Diabetics and the like, would likely prefer just the artificial sweetener.



Most of these can be grown in just about every Zone.




I also decided to just go ahead and get Moonshadow Hyancith, Urizun Winged Bean and red noodle bean. Plus promiscuous African peas. The breeding mix from the experimental farm network.

Red noodle beans and black eyed peas are the same species if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't mind seeing some outcrossing between them.


And one of the biggest barriers in Vigna breeding for home gardeners is that they don't outcross very often. Some species can supposedly cross well enough. Well, not black eyed peas it seems.


But, it's still neat.


I also went "Why not?" with the Madagascar Mung Beans. They're from Taiwan I think. Taiwan has some Vigna species.

That doesn't mean anything. But, yeah. Diversity is nice.


Plus I planted out some Adzuki beans, just to see if they'll come up this early.


I don't know of anyone who grows them. I planted seed from Tradewinds and the Hokkaido variety.


I'm trying to use some old seed or make some seed crop.


So I did plant some horse gram and some other things as well.

Some of that's come up.

[Jeremy Weiss]

I also decided to just go ahead and get Moonshadow Hyancith, Urizun Winged Bean and red noodle bean. Plus promiscuous African peas. The breeding mix from the experimental farm network.

Red noodle beans and black eyed peas are the same species if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't mind seeing some outcrossing between them.


And one of the biggest barriers in Vigna breeding for home gardeners is that they don't outcross very often. Some species can supposedly cross well enough. Well, not black eyed peas it seems.


But, it's still neat.


I also went "Why not?" with the Madagascar Mung Beans. They're from Taiwan I think. Taiwan has some Vigna species.

That doesn't mean anything. But, yeah. Diversity is nice.


Plus I planted out some Adzuki beans, just to see if they'll come up this early.


I don't know of anyone who grows them. I planted seed from Tradewinds and the Hokkaido variety.


I'm trying to use some old seed or make some seed crop.


So I did plant some horse gram and some other things as well.

Some of that's come up.

As someone who has grown most of these, I'll tell you what I have learned based on my results.

I haven't grown Moonshadow specifically, but, based on my other hyacinth bean experiments, it's sort of 50/50 if you will get seed back or not. A lot of them are VERY day length sensitive, and can often need day length periods that, here, would be found in January or February. I knew of two varieties that could reliably produce seed for me (Ruby Moon and a bush type one I got from a friend) and it took me about five or six YEARS to get a third (one plant out of a mix from Ghana, plus there was an "almost" that would probably have worked in your case, but not mine, since I am two zones further north than you.) Trying four more this year (what's left of the African stuff plus two I got from someone and one I got out of some overripe pods at an Indian grocery store.)

The mungs and the azuki's you should have no problem with. Assuming Magagascar Blue is the same as the mottled seeded ones I have been picking out of bags of beans from India (and, at least from a visual POV, they appear to be identical,) that one was the very FIRST mung bean to ripen for me; harvest was all in by July (and I only started them around Mid-April). Ditto azukis, most will be ready with plenty of time.

With the horse gram, it again depends on where you got your seed. Using my black seeded selection as a barometer, about 40% of plants produced pods before the frost came, and about 20% produced far enough before that to get high quality seed. So you may want to overplant this year and then select from what you get back in future years. Harvesting may also be a bit tricky, they like to tangle themselves all over each other, and finding the pods under the leaf and vine cover can be hard, as is telling when the pods are fully ready to harvest (one advantage of my black seeded selection, I can SEE when the seeds are ripe THROUGH the pod sides as the pods yellow up.) 

You also reminded me, I have some seed for Green Roselle I should dig up and plant (I'm curious as to what the drink tastes like if you DON'T have the anthocyanins.)

[Garrett Schantz]

Yeah, I think I got my horse gram from Ahmka seed, but the last I checked it hasn't been open.

That seed is getting a bit old.


I also planted Lathyrus tuberous. I'm hoping that they return.

They have a lot of hard to find legumes.



Didn't really get around to planting it before.


It would be interesting if this one mung bean is the same type that you've found in packages.


Those could've been off types for all that we know.


Either way. I've decided that this year is a new legume year.


The Hokkaido and Tradewinds (Packed for 2019) Adzuki beans are from over a year ago.


I planted Lotus tetranoglobis already. Another "Winged" legume. More of a thing that I want to naturalize.



There is also the Kali Black Gram that I planted. Which is Vigna mungo.


The possibly better outcrossing Vigna cowpeas and the mottled mung beans - plus the Urizun Winged beans and other newly mentioned things.


Urizun Winged is supposedly less daylight sensitive than other Winged Beans.


I'm hoping that the Hyancith bean is the same.


I'm not as concerned with the Hyancith bean. I've heard that they're a pain to prepare, and things like peas, common beans and things already exist and aren't as big of a pain to prepare. Those ones can be a bit more toxic than other legumes listed here.


I personally dislike ordering huge bags of legumes, just for a few seeds.


I probably could've tried growing some Garbanzos while I was at it. Or gotten more seed.



I'm mainly interested in seeing whether or not I can get chance Vigna crosses.


Cowpeas are probably out of the question. But I wouldn't mind some weird lucky cross.




I also have Woolly Beans germinating. They already have their first true leaves unfurled.

Volunteers. There's also some of the types from Prarie Moon Nursery, possibly one other species and a very, very small other Woolly Bean. Both types from Prarie Moon, were very small seeded. And they lack a fuzz, the vines have smaller leaves.

Smaller flowers.


I grew an inland fuzzy type from Hayefield last year as well. From Pennsylvania if I remember correctly. An ecotype.


And then, the experimental farm network's standard breeders mix.


I've heard that woolly beans outcross more than common beans.


But yeah. Lots of legumes.




The green roselle seems like fun.


Reselle is maybe hardy to zone 9. Zone 8 might be pushing it on the hardiness.


So I'm probably going to be on the lookout for hardy types.


Okra is supposedly a perennial here.

[Jeremy Weiss]

I tend to doubt them being off types. For one thing mungs self pollinate, so off types/crosses, while not unknown, are not super common either.

More to the point, the mottled appearance isn't the only way they look the same, they're also quite a bit smaller than the (already on the small side) "normal" mung beans in the bags. Plus, that packer has a pretty long rep with me of getting off type stuff mixed into their bulk legumes (for a long while, their horse gram was riddled with guar bean seeds), their mothe beans with pods of some sort of indigo (and a lot of other stuff) and their whole red lentils with (at different times) both grass pea/ really ancient type English pea seed (I'm actually growing out those old type English peas this year; they're in the cold frame now) and assorted vetch seeds in amount where there would be 20-50 of the extraneous seeds per HANDFUL taken from the bag (as far as I can tell, they have cleaned those up in the last year or two).

I wish you luck on the cowpea crosses, but, for the record, I have never HEARD of a regular cowpea and a "long/asparagus" cowpea crossing. If you look, you'll see even the seeds look different, long beans have long seeds, with a curve.

The closest thing I can GUESS to a common cowpea cross was the type I used to get out of the "Heathy Bean Mix" I could get at the Korean supermarket (hunting through those bulk bags is something I do all the time, and what I find makes up a large part of what I plant); the one I called "Owl's Eye" While the pure "Owl's eye" seemed the commonest (a whitish cream cowpea with a mottled "eye" around the hilum, there were always some on either side of that, cream with a pure brown eye and pure or mostly mottled.

My own cow peas aren't doing that great (I think only four of what I planted germinated, and I think two of those are dead now), so, if I do screw up the courage to go back into the city to hunt, I may try and get some more of the black ones from one store I call "greenhearts" (since some of them actually do have pale green cotyleons). Or maybe Iuck out and find some speckled eye ones or "Paint Splash" (like a black eyed pea, but the black part streaks out over the white surface rather than staying confined to a tight space.) in the bin at that herb shop.

It's probably too late to start chickpeas here, and the space I would have put them has been allotted to favas, so maybe next year again I start playing with my "velcros" (chickpeas with seed coats so rough they will stick to things like flannel in a manner similar to burs).

Oh, you mean smooth fuzzy bean. Yeah Prarie moon does have that...sometimes (it's a lot harder to get than the "normal" one)   

[Garrett Schantz]

https://www.prairiemoon.com/strophostyles-helvola-trailing-wild-bean


https://www.prairiemoon.com/strophostyles-leiosperma-small-wild-bean

These two, were very small. Tomato seed sized. (Not flat)

And smooth.



One was smaller than the other, by a bit.


The experimental farm network, I grew their mix as well last year. Those were semi woolly. Then Hayefield's type from Pennsylvania had fuzz. Both were decent sized.



But yeah. It seems like I'm getting volunteers from all of them.



The black seeded Vigna appears to be coming up. The same goes with some Adzukis.

Some of these are images from different sorta planter areas.


I did plant the Lathyrus species in an entirely different bed from any other form of legume. More of a perennial bed.



The woolly Beans won't be popping up the the same beds as things I planted myself.



I also planted a few remaining Pretzel Beans. I think some of those came up. When I tried them before, they didn't come up.

The stuff which isn't here yet, those cowpeas and things will be planted a bit later.


But yeah, woolly beans may or may not have crossed.



With the long red noodle beans and the like, and the common cowpeas.

They are still the same species, one may be a subspecies. I haven't heard of them crossing, maybe ones from a subspecies or whatever ancestor from some area.


Whatever the case, Vigna species are like common beans, in that they don't outcross too much. From what I can tell.


And I don't know a lot of people who grow both of those Vignas.


The one group which may potentially be prone to outcrossing sounds like my best shot there.


Figure I'll just see what happens.


Kali Black Gram would be Vigna mungo. Which is a close relative to mung beans.


So, in terms of legumes. This year looks like fun.


Some things in other images may range from various legumes to maybe some herbs.


I sporadically planted some things here and there.

I'm mostly just going for seed, and seeing how everything grows.