Open Source Plant Breeding Forum

I think we need some general garden musings type threads. So starting one here.

I rototilled today and yesterday. The soil is in good tilth. I think the April dry period normal to my area has started.

I really enjoy these threads.

Looks like I'll be moving 1200km mid to late June. I've planned out a primarily direct seeded multispecies grex for the new place (will include promiscuous tomato and pepper grex transplants, plus direct seeded corn mixes, ans mixrs of squash, beans, melons, lettuce, sunflowers, many greens, many root crops) and I'm working on my plan for up here. I've put some glutinous barley and triticale  and crossed radish seed into pots on the deck for seed increase hopefully before I go; I guess I should keep the other pots for digging up plant starts to come with me.

Meanwhile my fancy apple seeds arrived and need to go in their fridge medium; the snow is off the south slopes and I could plant between the haskaps as soon as the soil unfreeze, the pigpen-slash-tomato-trial-field is ankle deep mud and would be ready to be sown in grain if I wanted to do that with it. I'm debating between something I'd like (greens? It's weird to think of planting something but not being here to take seed from it) and something saleable if I need to put the property up (rye or sunflowers or cover crop barley?)

I have a bunch of starts indoors, including pepper grexes from doe hill and greek pepperoncini last year. My hungarian black x matchbox cross pepper pod is on its way towards ripe, and one matchbox x Hungarian black pod is ripe but I'm not sure if it's one I crossed (the cat went after my markers). Another that's certainly a cross is full size but not coloured yet.

Micro-dwarf tomatoes Moment and Fat Frog are full of green fruit. My hydroponic Sweet Baby Jade is finally flowering so I can take its pollen for those two micros.

Tomato starts are currently all my planned breeders, they're getting a little leggy since I don't have a fan on them yet but they're plugging along.

My chinense peppers are loving life, they're just gorgeous dense plants. By comparison my pubescens are dropping some lower leaves, I think they'd also benefit from air movement. Annuums, shocker, look like I expect peppers to look.

I have a bunch of experimental pepper varieties in waiting to separate from their plugs until more grow lights arrive shortly, and I'll likely plant a bunch of my bucket of unlabeled tasty tomato seeds (everything that ripened last year that tasted good but wasn't specifically labeled when it was brought to the house, including promiscuous and named varieties) just to see what happens. I don't think I could actually not grow tomatoes out there no matter what. Lucinda, about whom I'm very excited, is doing well.

Still keeping an eye on my possible cross of KARMA miracle, the regular leaf one. Nothing to note there.

5 skirret seeds have germinated out of 18 planted. Rhubarb is 100% germ. Dahlia coccinea are lovely and have some neat variation in leaf shape and colour. The early teff looks like you'd expect - I don't have an eye for grass.

I need to look up when artichokes can go out, and I need to seriously irrigate my greenhouse. It's dead dry from winter.

That's what I was doing in the greenhouse today - dumped all the tomato containers from last year into the big tubs, watered well and dug in some chicken manure pellets.  I usually or often do this when I'm nearly ready to plant but this year I decided to work on making the worms happy before I plant.  A fair few tomato roots left there for worms to chew on.  A few worms were spotted in the process, but I want to see more.   We had a couple of very nice days for yard work although the ground is still frozen, I hope to have thawed garden compost to work with soon.  Of course, it's snowing now, but...  soon.

Yesterday was potting up peppers: C praetermissum, targo mures, aji marchant, aji delight, sarit gat, haskorea, chimayo, aji delight, shishito, greek pepperoncini, early japapeno, piment de bresse. today will also be potting up peppers: birgit's locoto, mad hatter, sugar rush peach, KS white thai, sugar rush variegated (looks like black leaves), habanero pastel, brown ethiopian biber, szedged 179, pickles, rocotillo, brown egg, cnario, rocoto mini brown, rocoto marlene, santa lucia yellow seasoning, zavory, trinidad green scorpion.

I'll also pot up the half-dozen exserted orange tomatoes I saved from the middle of the promiscuous patch last year and planted at the same time as the second set of peppers. They've shown an interesting germination pattern: three of them germinated within a couple days, and now a second set is germinating all at the same time about ten days after the initial seedlings, and generally both sets are in one cell. Maybe I'll wait a couple days and let the little ones fully leaf out.

My grow lights are still not here.

I have some "Black Alberta" barley which is is not hullless, seems like "hulled" is the new "flammable/inflammable" in some write-ups. It's visually gorgeous but I have no way to use it for myself. I think that can go into the pigpen before the mud sets to keep the clay from tightening up, along with some greens for a yield. If I plant through it later on, so be it.

Going to be planting things like Ninfadora (Capsicum chinense - variegated foliage/unripe fruit), Indonesian Variegated x Sangria F5 (Capsicum annum - white variegated ), Sugar Rush Stripey (Capsicum baccatum) - perhaps some corked peppers, bleeding calyx types as well. Also growing another chinense called Yaki Blue Fawn - has some annum and chinense parents.

Some of these peppers have different genes / mutations for their variegation or other traits. Sugar Rush Stripey for example, only has variegated fruit - other white variegated peppers have it on their leaves - this probably means some other mutations are responsible for both of these traits. Attempting to combine them, even in a sterile cross could be fun. Oh yeah, and Sugar Rush Stripey's variegation shows when it is ripe - meaning it is probably nice for markets.


Also planning on doing similar tests with tomato varieties. Cherokee Tiger Black (Chartreuse Foliage) Lutescent / Honor Bright (Yellow Foliage) Stick tomato (Interesting Growth type) Painted Lady (White Variegated - Striped Fruit).

I wasn't very interested in variegated tomatoes before, because they seem to be weaker than regular tomatoes. But, combining them with Dwarf Varieties could create some nice ornamental / edible patio plants.


Most of the seeds I have planted so far have germinated - some of them haven't really been openly traded / sold in the United States before. I got a seed permit to get those ones, they should be fun to grow and share with others.


I have mentioned before that I will be moving at the end of this year - at some point after this, I will try and make some berry patches / gardens when there. I probably won't be able to do much the first year.

I will be taking some Sambucus racemosa cuttings from the woods, bringing some Rubus cuttings as well. I will be moving outside of Sambucus racemosa's comfort zone - I will just apply mulch around the base of the plant to retain moisture, putting it under a tree should help give it some shade as well. Pretty much want the species because there is a single mutant in the woods that produces red / yellow bicolor berries.

Some of the things I have planned out to go in this garden / growing area:

Oso Berry - Blue Sausage Fruit - Musa sikkimensis - Musa velutina - Musa basjoo - Yucca species - Asimina obovata / other "wild" Pawpaw species - Trifoliate Orange (Some zone 8 Citruses as well) - Medlar (Pretty much the edge of their comfort zone) - Amelanchier arborea - Amelanchier canadensis - Blueberries - Rubus species - Prunus species, some other trees will be in that area either for shade or supports. Some of these will be right on the edge of their comfort zones, may not perform that well - I will do some hybridizations with some things to help them out.

Akebia vines - Cucamelons (Melothria species) - Perennial beans, some other things as well.


I have quite a few Solanum species growing right now, can't wait for them to grow and then go into the garden when everything warms up.

Hard frost this morning. 21 F according to weather.gov and 25 F according to weather underground. My wife was out trying to save her ranunculus corms with water but she doesn't know if it did any good. She said the tomatoes in the greenhouse looked fine.

We are still having freezing temperatures pretty much every night, but above freezing in the day.   The coldest night in the forecast this week is -3C, but with days above zero the ground is slowly thawing anyway.  Frost heaved weeds are ready to be raked but the wind is howling this afternoon so I think I will leave it another day.

I was halfway through a post about it being almost snowfree on my south-facing and level unshaded ground yesterday, walked away from it, and this morning it is snowing again. Grass and the first weed cotyledons are just starting to consider emerging in the warmest places, like against south-facing greenhouse or house walls.

I hadn't quite decided what I was doing here in the North with my whole garden. I've decided to seed a hundred or so tomatoes from my last year's "this tasted good but I didn't label it so who knows what it is" mix, put in-ground last year June 10 and harvested early to mid sept. It contained the following at plnting, though they didn't all ripen:

Alexander B, Ambrosia red, Big Hill (Lofthouse), Big Hill series panamorous (Lofthouse), Bloody Butcher, Brad (Lofthouse), Brad F2 (Lofthouse), Cabot, Carbon, Cherokee chocolate, Cole, Czech bush, Early siberian, Exserted orange (Lofthouse), Galina, Glacier, Gobstopper, JD's special C-tex, Jory, Karma miracle, Karma purple multiflora, Katja, Kiss the sky, Lime green salad, Longhorn, Manitoba, Martino's roma, Maya and Sion's Airdrie Special, Mikado black, Minsk early, Moravsky Div, Native sun, Northern ruby paste, Old italian pink, Polaris, Q-series panamorous (Lofthouse), Rinon rippled delight, Ron's carbon copy, Rozovaya bella, Siberian, Silvery fir, Silvery fir tree, Store green cherry, Stupice, Sugary pounder, Sweet apertif, Sweet cherriette, Taiga, Uralskiy ranniy, Van Wert Ohio, Violet noir, Wildling panamorous (Lofthouse).

I'm also probably going to put some of my hard-selection magic manna corn in, I have a lot of the seed, it has a poor germination rate, only about 30% of the plants ripened seed last year, I'd like to see what it does this year.

Those two are mostly for curiosity, since I'll probably be gone before significant harvest.

Meanwhile I cut back my dahlia coccinea starts and am attempting to root the trimmings because why not? Peppers all look good, some appear to be budding out so I must have let them get a little too rootbound before potting up. Chimayo especially seems to want to get on with things.

My matchbox peppers are ripening and flowering and flowering some more. I might as well start a tray of seeds from the cross-pollinated but not emasculated fruit. Meantime each leaf node is pumping out clusters of lovely white flowers, I cannot believe how heavily they seem to want to produce in this second year.

Sweet baby jade tomato is flowering now, as are fat frog and moment. I've been putting off doing the cross because of those fiddly little flowers but it'll happen in the next few days.

My saved Exserted Orange pollen trap seed has yielded mostly tomato-leaf and some potato-leaf seedlings.

I have five skirret plants growing well, as is my teff and asparagus. My elderberry and currant seeds got knocked over by a cat, so they'll go out into the top of a large outdoor pot and hopefully I'll notice and ID them if/when they start.

My breeding tomatoes indoors are getting leggy; I'm going to cut them back and really dig out that fan to put on them, or maybe move them up to my desk where there's more air movement. I'm debating potting them up into 1-gallon pots or just planning to run with flowers in the current 4" to get my crosses. Maybe gallon is the way to go.

Down south I'm starting 100 each of my hot and sweet pepper grexes, both a combination of new-bought seed and saved seed from up north.

Also will be starting 100-150 plants of promiscuous, a-class flavour seeds harvested up north in mid-August.

50 plants each of KARMA miracle, my saved crossed sweet amarylla tomatillo (with the goal of keeping the sweet character and maintaining the early/size of the tomatillo for a fruit to eat out of hand), saved exserted orange pollen trap seed, the orange/red promiscuous bicolour I really liked the taste of but that didn't  ripen till a little later, mikado black, and lucinda.

10 each of silvery fir, minsk early, Brad, Sweet cheriette, either KARMA purple MF or KARMA purple (my labelling here when I saved them left something to be desired) and a locally-adapted Barry's crazy cherry.

5 each of: grocery store green, galina, maya & sion, a golden currant from a friend, rozovaya bella, uralskiy ranniy, early annie, and red plum.

I'm not planning to do any staking etc so I'm steering clear of the vinier indeterminates for the most part.

I've got my corn packaged up for planting down there and the rest in storage.  The new garden for the first year will be a7000-10000 square foot triangle, I'm allocating each corner a corn grex. Sunflower plantings will cut the breeze between corners a little but I'm expecting some crossing between blocks, and hoping for plenty of crossing within:

A corner for flour corns: I'm very curious to see how my five different accessions of Painted Mountain do next to each other; I'm going to plant them in adjacent strips so I can keep an eye out. I have one from the gulf islands, one from the lower mainland BC, one from interior BC, one from the Annapolis valley on the other coast, and one from Baker Creek. Then my saved Magic Manna (mostly starburst), "american indian flour corn" from Salt Spring seeds,and some of the original Magic Manna hat I planted last year, before it was heavily selected for the North towards starburst manna.

The flint corner will contain atomic orange from Baker Creek, saskatoon white from Adaptive, cascade ruby gold from Adaptive, New York red flint from Great Lakes, assinibione flint from Heritage Harvest, homestead yellow corn from Great Lakes, gaspe from Great Lakes, gaspe I saved from Heritage Harvest, gaspe from Heritage harvest, and gaspe from John Sherck.

The third corner of the triangle field will contain my field corns: early riser and oaxacan green dent.

My goal with the sunflowers is to find multi-branching small-flowered types and work on a reasonably-sized, edible bud that subs in for artichokes.

Understory of the corn/tomato/squash in the triangle will include a dry bean mix and a ton of greens: a lot of different brassicae, lettuces, maches, claytonias, chenopodium, chicorum, etc that is not yet finalized. Squash is also not yet finalized.

Excitingly I've lined up three dozen apple tree maidens for spring planting, though I have yet to get my fun seeds from Steven Edholm into bags in the fridge.

I've acquired some wild asparagus seed I'm also excited about but it won't be going anywhere until next year. Keeping an eye out for perennial foods that are good with wet feet over the winter. I suspect I'll be looking into a lot of currants and quince.

Meanwhile I'm threshing grains slowly, and slowly packing up my seeds into longer-term (vacuum sealed, freezer) storage if I think they won't be used this year. It's a slow process; I need to make my peace with waiting on some very exciting things till next year.

Potato leaf exserted orange would be fun! Though that could mean there are or were potato leaf genes hiding in the population at my place!

How well isolated was your population?

I'm quite enjoying these serendipitous surprises, but the waiting is so hard. I'm forced to keep planting more to keep me occupied.

I didn't isolate the F2 at all, F3 and F4 populations which I sent off to EFN and Snake River were isolated by 150 feet from any other tomato. So it is possible I introduced potato leaf into it in 2019 but I've never seen it expressed. It is also possible the unknown father in 2018 could have introduced it. I think I still have seed samples from all three different years. Plus a sample of the sister variety orange hill Joseph sent me.

My plan for this year is rather to allow it to mix with other exserted types.

It's still in the thirties here and planting time for okra is another five or six weeks off but got the last of my okra seed last weekend.  I'm always tempted to buy more but want to save room to replant some of what I save from last year's Cajun Jewel.  It seemed to grow the best of what I've tried in my garden so far.  This year I want to landrace okra and see how much I can improve on last year.  I have seeds for Kandahar Pendhi, Ultracross, Motherland, Alice Elliott, Clemson Spineless, Choppee, Wright's Pot Belly, Jing, Sultani, and Cowhorn.  When visiting my father I saw Baby Bubba and Go Big and bought them on impulse.  Going to plant a mix of all the new varieties next to patch of saved Cajun Jewel and see what happens. 

One seed of MMS x BH F2 germinated so rather than plant ten of them together, my plan is to put that one plant in a container with Exserted Orange. 

I have a packet or two of Okra I have been meaning to plant including a grex from a fellow in California. Probably needs planted because I have had it a few years now. Joseph's famous strain has been off the market a couple years because of crop failures or what not. My wife has been eating a lot of Okra lately it works with her new diet she has been trying out so growing it makes more sense now!

I also plan to plant MMS x BH F2 but from the anthocyanin strain with other exserted tomatoes including exserted orange, exserted tiger, and the tropical fruit tasting one if I can spare a few plants of the latter for crossing blocks. I am waiting for the potato leaves to come out and then I will thin out the regular leaved ones on that strain and only keep the potato leaved ones so that the crosses will be obvious next year.

Unfortunately I am very late to the game.  I found an old post of Joseph's on Tomatoville and ordered the varieties he said worked such as Sultani and Cowhorn.  I already have Cajun Jewel.  I wish I could have gotten some of his original seeds.  Ultracross looks promising with its diversity.

There was snow in the forecast and it's been a dry spring, so I broadcast-sowed two kales from the local seed swap, my edible chrysanthemum, some poppies, some lettuces, some beets, and some cilantro in and around my shadier haskap bed between the bushes.

I also broadcast white clover seed into my pathways.

Now there's 5cm of snow and another 5 expected. It should settle the seeds nicely.

The migratory birds have avian flu this year so all my birds are inside my greenhouses for awhile. No early greens for me!

Moved some rare "invasive" perennial / annual flowers into a barrel planter along with some other things.

Tiger lilies, tulips, grape hyacinth, variegated stonecrop, sea holly, coneflower, spring garlic.

https://youtube.com/shorts/VJMq7bLCDcs

Some of these aren't very visible yet, others are a little munched by deer. Not sure what some of these plants are, don't seem them elsewhere so figured I would move them to a safe spot.


In a metal planting bin, I moved some apple mint, peppermint (multiple varieties), spearmint and another type of mint. The unknown type, I have always called spearmint - it is different from actual spearmint, this species has more of a "bite" mintiness and some coarse hairs on it (not like apple mint's hairs). I also see a bunch of seedlings, so there is probably going to be a lot of spearmint popping up, the apple mint didn't flower last year.

Also moved some salad burnet, garden sage, oregano and lemon balm in there as well.

The mint more or less just creeps, easy enough to trim if it tries growing upwards.

Oregano, I am not concerned about - I don't use it very much. Lemon balm tends to get bushy. Salad burnet sort of spreads from it's roots like mint does, leaves are also smaller so it will probably grow in-between the mint's gaps.

Pretty much only tossed things in there that are perennials - that would work well enough with each other.

Got some rototilling done today. Red rototiller is working.

I've been doing a lot of work with pick and shovel this past week whenever weather permitted.   Some bed prep for grains, after I discovered large roots had spread into those beds, and some work to open up old garden beds and new space in my old garden area.   All of the beds currently in rotation from last year's garlic have been planted with grain, leaving some space for peas to go in a little later.    There is another small raised bed which was in grain last year and completely fell apart during the winter while the pea trellis was trying to walk away in a gale.   I'm planning to take it apart and rebuild a new bed with space for peas next to/attached to the tomato 'bus shelter', which is the only thing that didn't blow over or away last year.
We got about 5 cm of snow overnight which has turned to rain - enough to melt the snow is expected and to really soak what I planted.  There is some tattered row cover on the newly planted stuff.  Absolutely necessary or the seed would be dug up by birds and/or squirrels, and the young seedlings would be mowed down by hares.  Will have to keep that on until the grass is green ie something else for critters to eat.

Ugh, Steph, I have aspen roots all through my grain beds. Luckily I gave up on them, planted some haskaps there, and am moving away to somewhere aspen don't even grow.

Avian flu is sweeping through, so my birds are going to be in my greenhouses and confined to my easily-fenced garden beds through mid-May - if the plentiful rapini seed I winter-sowed is up yet (I expect it would be, in the greenhouse) it's long since eaten.. The piglets obligingly escaped and tilled in my kale and lettuce seed for me.

I'm mostly focusing on putting together seed mixes for the new place (1 acre + 1/2 acre + 7000 square feet, all but the latter pretty much raw ground newly reclaimed from rubus spectabilis so it'll need some vigorous growers) and playing with corns and two squash grexes (pepo and maxima) there. It's surprisingly hard to find really big hubbards etc. I think I'm up to six sources for painted mountain corn now, super interested to strip plant and see how much variation there is in populations. The extra space lets me separate into a gaspe/morden preservation field, a flour field, and a flint field instead of messing with keeping them in corners.

I've been hand-pollinating my c pubescens every morning, it's a lovely ritual and I have some small pods starting. Except for the first few flowers they should all be crossed.

It feels very weird and sad to be doing so little outside. I feel like hoarding my plants and bringing them to the new place, especially with all the space, rather than doing a big garden of any kind here. A row of tomatoes, a row of beans, a row of chard, a row of lettuce or cabbage, a couple squashes-- that seems like whoever ends up here could manage that and not feel overwhelmed. Meanwhile the clover is up and returning some of the bare soil to lawn.

Rototilled a couple hours. Then spread sand on cardboard a couple hours for my wife.

Planted my Salvia carduacea and Salvia columbariae today.

Planted some flat parsley, rosemary and Italian basil yesterday.

Bee balm will be moved to one of my flower planters too.

Keeping strawberry plants where they are.

Hoping for some F. virginiana x F. chiloensis hybrids. The virginiana type is from "Port Huron" - Oikos (Now out of business). My chiloensis type is from native food nursery, set fruits with a single chiloensis plant last year, probably due to F. virginiana.

I will be trying some crosses by hand, I am waiting for F chiloensis to put out more leaves and begin to flower first.

May or may not move some clones into totes to move with me. I'm pretty sure that the wildlife here is also going to spread fruits and hybrids all over the place.

We have crows, pigeons, robins and all sorts of things here. Not to mention groundhogs, moles, rabbits and raccoons.

Alpine strawberries and the other strawberries are favored fruits to many animals.

Cultivating wild species like Potentilla Canadensis and wild spring garlic (the leaves have a garlic taste, small clumping bulbs) is pretty fun.

Moving some ornamental Salvias as well.

I am giving a lot of plants away to people in the area - I had an area set up for pollinators, a lot of people looking to buy the property won't appreciate it.

I am also hoping to send seed out for some of these things as well, I may not be able to plant many things when I first move / some things may not grow in the climate I'm moving to.

I also might try taking some cuttings of a Sambuscus racemosa cuttings out to people.

There is a single specimen growing here with bicolor red / yellow berries. The place I'm moving to is in zone 8, this species maximum heat zone is zone 7 (granted, the area I'm moving to is borderline 7 / 8, it still may grow).

I'm not feeding birds this year, not intentionally at least. Avian flu has appeared in my state as of recently. I don't raise birds, but I don't want to create a bird feeding area. Bird bath may stay inside as well.

Have been sort of cycling through rototilling the tomato isolation gardens. I like to rototill about three times before planting. I have been using the red one because the blue one won't start. I don't think the red one is very good at getting remaining weeds at least not in one pass. I run out of time and patience after about one pass a weekend and don't get back to it till the next weekend. Today I didn't have work so I helped my wife put up a sweet pea fence, helped zip tie the temporary deer fence back up, and then rototilled just a couple of spots where I will ultimately want to plant squash and similar things. One of them was for the first time this year and it wasn't a very good till. I have to work the rest the week. Then I plan to take some time off.

Greenie and Garrett, you both have my sympathies for moving house in the growing season.  Although the plus side may be being able to move some perennials, for sure.

We had reports of avian flu here back in February, and some flocks were lost.  Also still putting out the warning not to approach or handle sick birds.  The nesting season is in full swing here with an almost jungle like sound when you throw in a squirrel or two...  I suspect that Mr. Muggins is raiding nests and that's not a happy thought.  All the birds have looked hale and hearty though until today, I saw a robin definitely not at his best.  Actually looked like something broken, but slowly hopping along.  Feathers a mess too a bit ragged.  So I hope the flu and the squirrels don't ravage our friends too much.  Hope your flock stays safe, Greenie.

Here it's the usual rebuilding and working on expanding my ground.  Built a new bed for peas attached to the tomato bus shelter which is the only thing that didn't blow down in the hurricanes last year.  Still to tack on a trellis for that.  Shored up the others and hoping they will be more secure this time.  Wish I had piglets to till for me, because the old garden is still too rocky for a tiller.  So fork it will be.   Nothing planted there yet, but today I got a beautiful pickup load of horse manure delivered, just wriggling with worms.  It's a bit fresh but will definitely use some of it now at least sparingly to get those worms working where needed, let the rest age for fall.

I am not moving until the growing season is pretty much done, but I probably need to end the garden earlier this year to throw grass seed and whatever else down.

Moved the trellis and a few other things into one smaller area, converting herb beds into raised beds this year as they are decent sized. Growing some things in totes as well.

Trellis helps a lot with saving space - probably only doing cucamelons and cucumbers - maybe beans up it this year.

Might till a very small area - or lay cardboard down next to everything else just to kill roots and grass.

Well I found the poor robin dead today, keeled over next to one of my raised beds.   I had seen bird flu alerts in the news, so I googled and found the number to call, our wildlife gov folks are asking anyone to report dead birds, then they collect and test them.  They came in a couple of hours and picked up the bird, but meanwhile I had been over to work on my new/old garden and found a load of feathers on one corner of the compost pile there.  The big feathers pretty sure it was robin.  So I think this bird had a bad encounter with the squirrel or maybe some other predator, and then died of the injuries.  Very sad, but better than bird flu.  Anyway they will test for it to be sure.  I asked him about the status of the outbreak of late, and he said they get the occasional positive test but mostly negative.   So thankfully there doesn't seem to be a major outbreak at present but they are continuing to monitor closely with the cooperation of the public.
I am really glad that we have a government that puts money behind this kind of important work. 

Roofers are gone and I've had perfect hardening-off weather: overcast, a tiny bit of rain, not generally too windy. Worked most of the plants up to six hours at a time already. I need to be gone for a day this weekend so I guess they'll stay inside for that, we're still frosty at night.

My friend in town is also moving, I visited him and liberated some suckers of what I believe to be a gallica rose: super multipetalled, unbelievably fragrant, repeats, foliage *not* rugose. Pretty sure it's been there at least 50 years, if not longer: it's formed quite a thicket. Very glad I got a piece.

The avian flu is in the next town over, it makes me nervous.

Still need to take my tiller in and get it looked at. Some small engine repair knowledge would have served me well. The pigs are still in that field though, so until the butcher comes on the 14th I can't get into it anyways.

Rhubarb is just starting to come up and haskap buds to unfurl. Plum buds are swelling but not yet open. The aspens put out a bumper crop of catkins this year, I guess they liked our hot summer last year.

Probably going to start direct sowing some more things today, also going to start planting out some stuff.

Temps don't go below 40 - 45F according to the forecasts. Everyone else here just planted their tomatoes like a week ago - I should hurry up and do so as well.

Because I am mostly growing in planters this year, I am thinking of putting S. habrochaites on the borders of bins / beds - same with related things.

Got a lot of rototilling to do before average last frost on Sunday. Ran out of gas so need to get some more. Kind of the final round of rototilling for many of the gardens. Though there are some garden spaces that could use a lot more rototilling especially if I want space for squashes and such.

Also shoveling sand and compost around mostly for my wife who is growing cut flowers.

Done shoveling sand and compost as of yesterday.

Rototilled for a good while today.

Planted Montana Morado Maize, sunflowers including Lofthouse's strain of giant and Arikara, and a mix of cucumbers including Lofthouse, a couple years of home saving 17 and 19 and a couple new to me varieties. I think the 17 and 19 seed didn't look that great. I remember bringing some very overripe lemon cucumbers home to seed save last year but I didn't find it if I got any seed out of them.

Yesterday I planted moschata and pepo squashes.

Family has been in quarantine since friday. Think I'm finally the last to get "the COVID".  :( My throat is killing me.

Planted some pluerry and peach-nectarine hybrid pits that were in the freezer. Also planted several species of Mertensia bluebell seeds that were also in the freezer, most of them native to Colorado. Hopefully they germinate fine.

Huckleberry Gold potatoes look to be thriving. Also have lots of little TPS seedlings sprouting. The native wax currant has lots of flowers on it and the Rubus deliciosus bush has lots of flowers, though no genetically diverse pollen to set fruit with.

The peas seem to be doing well. My "large podded" group has extra large leaves and they are extra tender leaves, compared to most of the others

My one test seedling of my alcohol treated Hopi Black Squash Moshata is growing. Plan to grow it in a pot and self fertilize it to save the variety from extinction. I am one of two who have very old seeds for it. Plan to send seeds to Baker Creek and EFN if successful. I only have 10 more seeds.

Haskap buds are well and truly burst on my southernmost slope and flowers will be opening soon. The hummingbirds are out to take a look. Stinging nettles are big enough to pick. My thistle patch is coming up, looks like it spread a bunch, I'd better get on that. Last year I was going to eat the young shoots and missed the very short window.

Thinking about the garden down south. Without my dogs down there I wonder what deer are least likely to eat?

Moved a columbine and a bleeding heart to the flower / pollinator area.

Also dug up some milkweed rhizomes and used a bit of rooting hormone on them. Dug up and moved my butterfly bush that I bought last year on sale.


Stonecrop, Coneflower, Milkweed (Asclepias syriaca), Morning glories, Ipomoea quamoclit, Scarlet Runner beans, Cucumbers, Tomatoes, Peppers, Ground cherries, Solanum habrochaites, Solanum peruvianum, Tzimbalo Melon Pear, Solanum caripense (True Species), Red Beebalm, Mentha species, Chives, Kangaroo Apples, Litchi tomatoes, Nasturtiums, Canary Nasturtium, Lavender, Anise Hyssops Catnip, Grape hyacinth.


All of these fellows will be in the same general area this year.

Typically, Bombus species only go for certain flowers / species listed here - Kangaroo Apple and Litchi tomato's large flowers, large morning glories, Coneflower, Scarlet Runner bean flowers, Red Beebalm, Catnip and mints along with Anise Hyssops etc.

Honey bees usually swarm Milkweed, Chives flowers, bunch of the same things that Bombus species do. Typically don't go near anything that require them to shake flowers to release pollen or other things.

Probably don't need to mention how happy Butterflies will be to have all of these species in the same area - especially the butterfly bush and Milkweed. Hoping to see hummingbirds stop by as well.


Usually takes a year for pollinators to realize that a new flower / species exists. Happened with S. habrochaites and other species. Kangaroo Apples and Litchi tomatoes were only noticed by one bee last year - more should visit this time around.

I've been seeing Bombus queens out and about on what flowers are around this early.

I've been seeing a lot of Colorado Potato Beetle but the annual Solanum species that they usually utilize isn't germinating yet. Phenology seems slow here.

I rototilled for a few hours this morning. Then this afternoon I got some Cucurbita maxima planted in two spots I had rototilled earlier. I planted the grex this year for the first time since 2019 as I am not growing a seed crop of Lofthouse Buttercup this year. So some Tetsukabuto genetics, some Lofthouse maxima genetics, some random saved seeds including some from as far back as 2016 and two packets my wife wanted to grow for ornamental purposes Jarrahdale and a pink or white hybrid.

I weeded the volunteer Lofthouse parsnip patch for awhile and also played whack a Cardaria draba, as well as perennial grasses, and Cirsium arvense out in various gardens with my hoe as the rototiller often seems to skip over them without really rooting them out. I would probably need to make more passes at a time for that. I did that kind of today with one of the areas where I planted the Maxima squash. Whack a Cardaria draba with the hoe seems to be an effective method as well.

Saw my first bumblebee today as well!  ;D

Saw my first bumblebee yesterday! It was flying around the Rubus deliciosus flowers, though I didn't see it land.

Weeded the northeast garden today. Found 7 tomato seedlings in the direct seeded patch there but pulled up one.

Planted sweet corn and watermelons with my son.

Planted flint corn and Goldini squash today in the northeast garden. Left the tomatoes out on the land covered all day. Uncovered the tomato bed at the house. Wish the temperature would warm up to 40 degrees F at night.

Cucumbers, Indian gherkins, Mexican gherkins, beans, morning glories and nasturtiums are coming up nicely.

Took them a little while to start coming up, I have Joseph's landrace, Bhutan-meets-Greg (A landrace with Gagon cucumber mixed into it), Dragon's Egg, Richmond Apple, Poona Kheera, Sikkim, SMR 58, County Fair, Lemon cucumber, Beit Alpha, Jibai Shimoshirazu.

The Experimental Farm Network West Indian gherkin seems ro look different than the standard variety, I am growing the normal type alongside it.

The beans and morning glories are mostly for seed - flowers this year. The only thing that I'm really growing for food on the trellis is probably the cucumbers. I will probably end up with a lot of seed by the end of this all.

No tillers for a week, I presoaked my fava beans and couldn't wait, so I hand-dug the new ground (well, pig-depastured ground) and put them in yesterday. Will be doing the same with snap and soup peas this evening.

Got a bit of a sunburn so spent some time indoors picking through a bag of painted mountain corn. Apparently I pulled out my favourite 80 kernels and might try to cross it with morden. Lots of spots (cudu?), stripes, an eagle, some lavender, coffee, and both lavender and orange flame ones. Nothing green in the bag, it looks like. I need to track down a reference for how these colours move, though I expect crossing them with the white morden is the best way to see what happens.

Squash massive grex started indoors yesterday, melon big grex started today. I should start my squash pollen-trap gold nuggets too. If I get a bag of viable seeds out of any of it I'll call these a win.

Haskaps are blooming and the hummingbirds are becoming a hazard. They fly in through the door to the deck and get stuck in my vaulted roof. Will keep the door closed for a bit. It's the first mosquito hatch, so fair enough.

Cucumbers are working on their first leaf. I think I'm going to try the tromboncino and young north georgia candy roaster this year instead of zucchini, to give me a good clean pepo grex.

My rapini keeps coming up in the greenhouse and the ducks keep eating it - it self-seeded last year. I'm sad about that. Maybe I should try and salvage a piece.

I have roughly a billion matchbox pepper pods to pick and put into rice vinegar. It's my current favourite condiment. I better not fall in love with all the peppers I'm trialling this year; I do not have room for them all in the house over winter.

My heavily-selected pepperoncini seeds (only one plant of all of them actually set fruit last year) are flowering very precociously. Very pleased with that.

I'm making up a planting calendar for next year, with all the weird one-off things I forget to plant until a couple weeks later than I should (lentils are on my mind right now)

My corn isolation spot is super shot through with aspen roots that are much wider than I thought. My options are to give up without ripping them all out and water and fertilize very heavily, or to take a lot more time prepping that spot.

Oh, and the upper field is silty sand, I guess it is an old riding ring (with years of pasture, then pigs). Bunch of very rounded rocks in there too. If there wasn't so much organic matter in the soil it would feel like a beach. I suspect I'll have to water it.

I planted some white spruces today along my west property line, which I had to hook out of the old garden area.  These are nice trees, and since the var takes over any cut or falling down areas to their exclusion, I wanted to make sure we have some young ones still coming along in the forested part.   I also managed to plant some shrubs this week  that have been languishing in pots for longer than I care to remind myself.  Hawthorns, a white lilac, forsythia.   I have more trees in pots that I would really like to plant now but I think for most it will be impossible to do them justice without a lot of prep.  At minimum there are days of work cutting out deadwood and cleaning up what has fallen, technically I could do that this time of year without bothering the birds but I haven't bit the bullet to buy myself a cordless chainsaw and it really is too much to do without a hand.
All the tall soup peas are in, I've run out of space for them here, so I put some lines of sprouted peas into a flat until I can get out and build the trellis at my mother's.  Amplissimo Victoria Ukrainskaya, Biskopens, Bulroyd Bean, Latvian Soup Pea is a new one from Salt Spring.  In the short soup peas, I have interplanted rows of Margaret McKee with a Black Hulless Barley that is supposed to be short and robust (no lodging), with a long row of McKee in front, to see if they produce as well in between as they do alone.  Desiree Blue Pod is another long row on the back.   Not sure what kind of supports these will get.  The barley is already up, planted a week earlier, but it's all under row cover yet, as are my other grains (except the fall planted spelt) until I get some protection around the beds.   A lot of rabbits this year.  And indeed the spelt has been browsed, maybe multiple times, and could do with some protection itself.
I also soaked the favas, and put them in pots to start on the advice of a friend who says critters took all they direct seeded one year.  So we'll let them sprout up first I guess.

Pepo and some moschata squashes are germinating. No maxima germInation yet. Some volunteer corn is up but none of what I deliberately planted. Sunflowers are up.

Moved some more volunteers into the flower garden: Tragopogon porrifolius, Ageratina altissima, Siberian wallflower - Ageratina altissima and Siberian wallflower just started popping up this year / last year. Turns out that both are perennial - I dug up two Ageratina plants and moved them next to the Milkweed, Pokeweed and Butterfly Bush.

Butterflies seemed to enjoy Ageratina last year, bees visited it as well - grows tall enough to warrant putting into a flower garden as well. It also still flowers late into the season. Should start flowering in late summer, the plants last year were new arrivals as mentioned before, interested to see how many flowers they put out this year as they are pretty tall and bushy at the moment.

Planted bush beans and tepary beans, planted some onion including Dakota tears and third generation in my garden Lofthouse, and second generation in my garden leek seed, planted carrots, dill, and parsnips. Planted okra for the first time ever a mix of Mike's grex that I have been intending to plant for years and some Clemson spineless I found in a to give away box of packed for 2021 seed. My wife has been eating a lot of Okra it works with Keto. Planted some radish seed I saved last year. Planted watermelon went heavy on yellow types I got in trade and some saved seed.

My flour corn is germinating. This year it is the Montana Morado Maize though I noticed a few volunteers over where last year's flour corn was in the same garden and I planted cucumbers this year and I think I will leave them. That was Montana Cudu Corn.

Moschata and pepo squash are continuing to germinate. I noticed today a phenomenon whereby some moschata squash seed far from the soaker hose seemed to be germinating great so I moved the soaker hose away from the seed. In moving the hose I  noticed one germinate of the Green Ayote squash from the original packet. I hope more germinate and some of the 2021 green ayote or the the likely hybrid.

I may have found one volunteer watermelon yesterday in the direct seeded tomato row. I left it. I also did some wheel hoeing today in lieu of getting the rototiller back out for fear it would frighten off my son and I hoed around a radish seedling.

I re-rototilled a couple areas and planted cowpeas a mix of Joseph's  and Carol's. Planted salsify. Planted sweet sorghum mostly Mennonite with a little bit of a strain from the former USSR, turnips including seven top, purple top white globe, and aprevecho hardy. Also planted tartarian buckwheat. A tiny bit from saved seed and a large packet of Medawaska that has been waiting awhile to get planted.

Edit: also planted scarlet runner and some pole beans.

There is space for another row. Not sure what else to plant.

Well it seems I did myself some kind of injury, the day after my last post, while putting potatoes in at Dad's old garden which hasn't been planted for a decade.  There weren't a lot of raspberries invading that end of the bed since Mom had someone  to cut it down last year.  But I only had my pick and an old, not so sharp shovel to make the trenches and boy was it hard to break that ground without a machine.  It was too hot of a day to boot, and by the time I had one bed made (of three intended) my whole body had swollen up, I was a mess.  And not over it yet either.  Sore back and neck today, but I had to get the winter tires into storage before it rains for a week, so I did that and tidied the shed.  In the process I found another tool - an 'edger' with a broad blade you can put your foot on.  Took it out and tested and yes, it cut through that voluptuous sod.  So that will surely help with the remaining potatoes. 
The soil down there is fantastic.  The land was farmed for about 400 years, one of the first places opened up, deep and a high organic matter content, and nothing like the poor conditions at my own place which is totally from scratch.  So it would really be great to rescue that from the weeds, but I am face on my own physical limitations.  If I can open up trenches in that deep sod the potatoes will do the work, but what a job to get trenches alone.
The wind on our weekend storm must've been locally much more violent than the report from the airport station where they only gusted around 70 kph.  One of the tall pea trellises I'd been working on to shore it up against the gales came down again, so I did repairs and strengthened that hopefully enough yesterday when the rain stopped.  At Mom's her heavy chairs and benches had been totally tossed, so I straightened those up today too.  I had meant to build a tall trellis at her place as well but I've really lost confidence in that project.  It's not something you throw together here, I have nothing standing that wasn't anchored to a tree stump.  I just need to select some shorter peas in the breeding and grow short peas until I have shorter versions of those admired tall ones.
The sugar beet X chard F1 group has been moved outdoors, they are all bolting but some are much slower than others, which may be interesting for the production of diverse colors in the seed.  Full red being one of the latest to bolt. 
Fava seeds don't seem to last long - I have 100% germination on the ones I bought this year and most are up, the ones from last year sprouted but aren't up yet, the ones from two years ago went moldy instead of sprout...

Planted out the remnants in the greenhouse today. Black Beauty Eggplant, Lofthouse sweet peppers, a single purple tomatillo from Sandhill, and a single Amarillo tomatillo. Four currant tomatoes I transplanted with my son. A few watermelons he planted. Now the greenhouse is empty except for the tomatoes planted in the ground in there. The largest of the three Solanum chilense has just about grown up to the greenhouse bench and I am trying to train it to come out behind it. I really hope it sets some good viable seed this year. It is going so much better than the last time I tried to grow it.

I planted some tiger teddy sunflower seeds my wife said needed planted. Then I weeded around some squash and weeded and hoed around some tomatoes.

Finally got my tiller arrived and set up on the weekend. I've never had a rear-tine before and it is magical! I tilled the upper field in something like 5 hours (the pigs did great taking the sod off it, and it's lovely ground below except for the one sandy spot) and plan to do the back field tomorrow. My corn is soaking, half of it is in the ground. I've settled on 24 types, of which 4 are different sources of Painted Mountain (one of which contains extra fancy seeds I picked through a bag for). I decided to start half my maxima grex inside and half direct-seeded and the potted ones have their first leaves. I'm interplanting my corn heavily with all kinds of things. I've started soaking my bush beans.

The tomatoes are still out on the deck waiting to be planted out -- last year they got out June 10 -- and they're looking much happier now that we're getting a bunch of heat. Even the dwarfs I planted super late are looking big enough to plant out.

I lost one tray of dahlias to spider mites (!) but the other is thriving, and my peppers are struggling with spider mites a bit but recovering as they spend more time outside.

I planted my fava grex into three beds; two I covered and one I left open. Perhaps unsurprisingly the crows picked the sprouts off the uncovered favas, though they couldn't quite pull them out, and killed most of them. I'm covering my corn with row cover until it's a couple inches tall; luckily I have a bunch of row cover. I probably need more than I have, though, I think crows can be hard on squashes too.

Apple blossoms have just opened - it's a weird apple year, a lot of the trees around have very few blossoms -- and my haskaps have finished flowering. I need to till between the fruiting shrubs and cover the ground with cardboard; thistles are becoming a big problem around that spot.

Today I'm most excited about my ethiopian kale but that changes moment to moment. This is by far the biggest garden I've done, and I'm able to put so many things in it! Thursday we're supposed to get a good solid rain, then I'll need to run waterlines after that.

Bush beans, runner beans, scarlet runners, teparies, cowpeas, turnips, tartarian buckwheat, sorghum, carrots all germinated.

Maybe a few germinates on okra and salsify.

Looks like things are ok after the work week. I need to weed. However, it is going to rain all weekend. Might not be constant but definitely an inpediment.

William,  what kind of okra did you end up planting?

Attempting landrace of okra.

I planted one area with Cajun Jewel seeds saved from last year.  In the other half I planted Motherland, Ultracross, Alice Elliott, Go Big, Baby Bubba, Jing, Kandahar Pendhi, Dwarf Long Pod, Choppee, Pot Belly, Cowhorn, Yalova Akkoy, Green, Zambian Landrace II, and Clemson Spineless.  All were planted on May 8.  Kandahar Pendhi, Choppee, and Jing never germinated.  Those spots were replanted with Green and Cowhorn since those two germinated the earliest of all the okra.  One Cajun Jewel seems much larger than the rest and was unaffected by the 33 degree morning we had.  Baby Bubba and Motherland were the two new varieties with the largest plants so far.  Motherland is the largest plant of both areas by a bit and showed no signs of distress after the 33 degree morning, with 3/4 of the okra showing some damage.

May main goals for this project are ability to grow  when weather is below 60 degrees at night, and productivity.  So far we have had most nights in the 40's and 50's and the winners so far are Motherland, Cajun Jewel (one plant), and Baby Bubba.

I planted a packet of Mike's Okra Landrace from a seed trade with him a few years back (so older seed) and a packet of packed for 2021 Clemson Spineless that was in a free box at a garden store near my parent's place out in Washington state near Seattle. I thought I saw one germinate last night but it was dim out due to cloudiness and late in the day.

Mike's page about his though it is out of stock:
https://www.diablovalleyfarm.com/product-page/okra-landrace

Thank you.  I'll have to keep an eye on it and see if I can get some for next year. 

I'm not sure how active Mike is with seed growing nowadays.

I rototilled (cultivated), wheel hoed, hoed, and hand weeded today. Tried to focus on the three patches of corn but the rototilling sort of took me away from the corn for a while. I think one patch of corn is weeded, another has good progress, and the third has slight progress. Also got some work done around the four squash patches. Rototilled on both sides of the turnips, Tartary buckwheat, and sorghum. Sorghum is much smaller than corn seedlings so far. I've never grown sorghum before, the packets have been waiting around a few years.

I don't think that the tines on the Troybuilt horse (approximately 84 or 85 model my parents bought new) are doing a good job. My mom has said for some years that it needs new bolo tines and I think she is right. I have a lot of perennial weeds Cirsium arvense aka Canada thistle (why we in the U.S. attach Canada's name to this European thistle I have no idea- but I like to think it got the name when it took over a goodly portion of Canada just like it has my garden) and Cardaria draba aka white top and they don't cut off easily nor die easily. Not sure how to order or install new bolo tines though- debating about searching through parts catalogues online myself or asking the repair guys to do it. My blue rototiller isn't working yet this year, probably needs to go in- I think the red Troybuilt horse should go in also. It runs fine but the fuel valve is leaking and then there is this bolo tine question- probably wouldn't hurt to get it an annual service too.

Mowed today. Set some sprinklers for the first time in awhile. I think the rainy times are over and time for July and August dry. At least in my climate.

Fertilized today with some OMRI listed Whitney Farms and Miracle grow of the mostly water soluble sort. I don't think I used enough based on the directions. Oh well. Also apparently I could do so again in a week. Hmm.

Watering has been the  name of the game since the hot weather kicked in mid June.  It's too bad a high humidex does nothing to wet the ground.  Full morning's work to water everything now - garlic, wheats, peas, tomatoes, odds and ends.  Garlic scapes are early, a lot of things are coming on early.   I have a bed where I sowed dwarf peas and barley at six inch rows to see how self supporting that would be.  Seems to be working for the peas, but the barley is suffering.
Buckwheat, radishes, mustard and field peas are up in my old veg garden - could not believe how hard and rocky it was when I went to turn it, but surprisingly moist below thanks to the high proportion of clay.  I brought a hose over to water just after planting but had to poach it back for the peas and garlic at the bottom of the garden.  Other than that it's not being watered and is the only bed I planted and didn't give any protection at all, decided just to sow heavily and hope the rabbits only nibble.
There seem to be three rabbits basically living in my garden.  I see them just about every day.  They've stayed out of the beds that are minimally protected with row cover or chicken wire, but I have one more bed to finish planting and build a trellis for peas already in there, and they now have the habit of jumping through there, so I'll have to do some dramatic tidying up ha ha. To make an impression. ::)

Oooof. Garden is planted, and then replanted after the crows emptied out 2/3 or so of the corn beds completely.

Favas are flowering. Tomatoes are flowering. My dry beans (especially the beefy grex, which I'm most excited about) are poking along. I got a nice mix of dry beans from sweet rock farm that's pretty but didn't emerge evenly.

Last year I got my first tomato mid-July, this year will be later.

Tomato volunteers are coming up and growing fast, but sadly they're not where my last year's tomatoes were grown so they're likely supermarket seeds from the pigs.

I got a nice squash grex in the ground, lots of different types in there. I wish I'd recorded the types seperately because one had cotyledons almost as big as my palm and I'm curious about it. It's starting to take off. I'm hoping to get viable seed from several fruits this year. Honestly this was a lot of new bought seed and just a little from my two saved individuals from last year. One set of the squash is planted in a good block, I'll probably mulch it once things start drying out a little.

My melon grex had some trouble with transplanting but there are lots of plants that survived, they're about as far along as the squash and in the sandiest, sunniest spot. That grex contains a melon someone from just east of me was working on for a number of years (he gave up, tried greenhousing a couple years, and has now decided to go for hardy fruit bushes instead) plus the Lofthouse Oliverson melon, the Farthest North mix from adaptive etc. Very curious how this goes down.

My tallest corn plant from the cascade ruby gold bed is knee-high, not bad for being planted June 8 (though it was pre-soaked). Even with just the few varieties left it's neat to see how much variation there is from variety to variety.

Of particular interest in the brassica family is "karate cabbage" or "ethiopian kale" or brassica carinata. It's supposed to have a unique taste. A lot of my early greens got wiped out because they were interplanted with the corn and I needed to move soil to hill up the corn and keep crows out. Luckily it's just about time for the summer plant of diakon and napa cabbage, and I've been eating off my volunteer lamb's quarters comfortably in the meantime. Second early lettuce has a couple weeks to go.

I have a trial of soup peas I planted down in an as-yet-unweeded bed among the haskaps, it's a little shady down there. I also have a nice bed of my favourite soup pea, bouchard, which is very dwarf and I suspect will do great planted among barley and corn. This is my second year of seed increase and I'm looking forward to having enough to eat too.

I'm still fascinated by the differences in my different fields: the wood field is sandy and deep, the far field is organic and shallow over clay and also pretty gravelly, my first garden is manufactured with peat and compost so it's deep and dark, last year's tomato field is deep rich dark well-maintained clay. What I did not do, but wish I had, is plant a couple of genetically uniform indicator plants in many different spots to compare them.

Peppers are staying potted this year, for the most part. Enough time to worry about that when they're happily flowering.

We keep having big rains just as I feel I need to start seriously watering. May that pattern continue. The plants love it, as they love these >20C daytimes we've been having so reliably. I think we've even been above 10C one or two nights now! If this keeps up things will ripen no problem.

Cloudy and some fog this morning so I took advantage of the "cool" to trench the three beds of potatoes before breakfast.  Two hours, counting the ten minute driving there and back.   
One bed, in the upper garden, is full of goutweed.  The lower garden, to my surprise, was full of 'mile-a-minute' - something I've been shown and warned of as a 'terrible weed'.  There was no sign of it when I put the spuds in, but there's lots of it now.    I have no idea how these new-to-me weeds will play ball with the old plan of feeding weeds to the potatoes.
Either way, I think my old fashioned potato growing days are done.  I just can't face the trenching in hot july weather.  Caplin were rolling somewhere in the area last week, which would have sent me to the beach at 6 am in the old days, every day until I got some to pile on the potatoes.  I didn't even want to see a fish, it was so hot.  I couldn't even imagine cleaning and cooking fish in my hot kitchen, let alone flipping them out in the field surrounded by a cloud of blackflies and then piling dirt on top...

Ugh, goutweed is my nemesis. I probably spent a solid fifth of my landscaping career picking it out of gardens.

I am very happy with my lower-yield, zero-work method of doing potatoes in deep deep straw. I just need to get on buying straw in late summer/early fall in big square bales when it's cheap and available. Which... is coming up.

It's the height of the rhubarb harvest right now, I've started one mead and thinking about starting a second. Sweet ciciley flowers are probably a few days away from candying time (they're black licorice flavoured, if they get simmered in sugar syrup and then dehydrated they are really lovely).

I got some orach seed from a neighbour, she says they self-seed well here. I always thought they were a hot weather plant but I'll give them a try.

Last night I had time to walk the garden just for pleasure. That was very nice.

Yeah I have to say, I've really been enjoying the daily data rounds on the heading wheat... just like a stroll for the pleasure, except for the excitement of being on a mission.
I finally got that pea trellis up yesterday.  I also did a little sympathy watering in the perennial garden, which is strictly rain fed.  The drought effects are a bit more severe than I've seen before.  Rain finally came overnight and it is pelting down there now this morning.  Just a huge relief for all things getting crispy...   Dragonflies and damselflies were lurking in the valley yesterday in anticipation.  First big blue of the season.

Got my Sorghum weeded and another patch of tomatoes.

Last night was another late-night garden walk. In a month it'll be dark enough I'll need a headlamp for these.

Corn is very happy for the most part and it's just such a generous plant to work with. I suspect I'll feel differently when much of it doesn't ripen, but I get so much enjoyment out of watching it put on significant daily growth. The tomatoes are similar, but I'm more used to them growing like that. Tomato flowers are starting to come out in very unexpected shapes on unexpected plants.

I planted some fall seeds: diakon, a little napa cabbage, a little of a heading cabbage that's supposed to resist aphids, a bunch more greens mixes of various brassicas, or lettuces, and chicories. I've tossed diakon seeds in the greens mixes, a riff on planting radishes in to mark the row, just for fun.

My maximas are just barely starting to vine, the direct-seeded ones on the southmost slope do in fact seem to be catching up with my indoor starts. Folks always say that happens but I admit to surprise.

Now I'm turning my mind to my fall-planted grains, favas, etc with some encouragement from Steph's posts.

My lamb's quarters isn't going to seed yet, but the weeds in with it that I'd rather not keep are. I may actually do some hand weeding that isn't directly from the ground to my mouth or my salad bowl.

I need to find room for my skirret and alba roses in the ground so they can settle in before winter.

Aside from a bit of leaf damage on my turnips and arugula things look good.

After a ton of ducklings hatched this spring I'm giving some thought to what running ducks under a half-grown stand of corn would look like. I bet they'd be happy.

Haven't been watering the garden as much as I should have been.

But, I did learn that the Bhutan-meets-Greg Cucumber Grex, is very drought tolerant. Other cucumbers are smaller, some yellow leaves etc.

Growing around 7 varieties, Poona Kheera and Sikkim are in this mix as well. But, this grex is doing great, have it in some different spots too. Cucumbers are full of water, so I am starting to water these more often as they need it. West India Gherkins, and Mexican Sour Gherkins don't need much water either. The Sour Gherkins do get very sour if I don't water them, so there is that to consider.


Tomatoes aren't doing the greatest, our cool weather flipped from the 60s to the 80s - 90s pretty early in the season and there hasn't been much rain in those periods. Mine are starting to recover, other people's are as well.

Exserted Orange is flowering a lot now. Lot of the things I wanted to use it to cross with didn't do well, some died. Noticed some S. habrochaites volunteers, they are actually outcompeting grass... Guess something that competes with grass and weeds makes decent breeding material. Some pimpinellifolium types are growing in lightly shaded areas around the border of the house.


Elderberry I found last year still has yellow berries: https://youtu.be/iFxaJOjuMCw

Guess I need to take cuttings. Also taking cuttings of some brambles. Got a bunch of strawberry varieties and species in one pot, trying to use as little pots to save moving room as possible.

Yesterday when I went to check the grains in the back beds, I startled the small rabbit inside the enclosure.   Trying to shoo the thing out, apparently they cannot see chicken wire as this little hare bounced itself repeatedly off two sides that are wired in before it finally got a clear shot at a way out.   These back beds were never really secure, there's row cover around the back and it keeps fallling off and getting propped up again.  I decided to put an extra piece of chicken wire around the peas and barley, which I meant to do just for support, again done hastily and a bit of a mess but it was enough to keep them out last night.
I also planted some kousa in the unfinished salad bar out front, and secured the sides. 
This morning out watering I found the rabbit had gotten into the small W bed of Black Hulled Emmer and Rivet, which just emerged from boot, and ate the whole back corner.
Again I had left the back open because there are big tall plants now behind it.
There hasn't been a bad rabbit year here for a long while.  Bit of row cover draped around beds has been enough to keep animals away.  With regards the snowshoe hares, they find lots of grass around the garden, which they seem to like best to eat anyway, so why worry about something surrounded by cover that might be a trap.
Problem is, it's so hot and dry, you can't help noticing the difference where watering has been done.
I've been watching that little rabbit from the window, sneaking in beside the garlic bed to nibble that bit of grass near the edge of it where water fell from the hose.
Anyway, the other problem is, grain is a grass.  It's what they like best.
So I will have to improve on my fencing of the trial areas.

Weeded with the red rototiller this morning. It doesn't do a great job but it covers a lot of territory fast.

Got my pepo squash grex weeded. It seems to be suffering from some kind of deficiency in part.

I am behind on weeding and watering several areas still. Making some progress weekend by weekend.

Very warm today currently 94 F or 34.4 C it looks like similar temperatures may persist the remainder of the month.

Temps have been in the upper 80's-mid 90's here with very little precipitation. 

Tomatoes are healthy except for Terra Cotta.  Exserted Orange has one tomato and some flowers, Exserted Tiger has ten tomatoes and flowers.  MMS X BH has six tomatoes that are starting to ripen.  Three are cherry type, two are grape type, and beefsteak shaped.

Peppers are moving slowly.

Cajun Jewel is producing pods.  Out of new varieties Zambia Landrace II, Cowhorn, and Go Big are only ones doing anything.  Zambian is largest okra plant in my garden.

Out of squash planted Bulam is biggest, followed by Lofthouse, and then Canadian Crookneck.  The rest are smallprobably won't produce anything.

I think I am back down to two Okra plants. I think I should have started them in pots. They are tiny.

Randy that is pretty exciting to me to hear about the three tomatoes from my garden.

My main moschata and pepo grexes are small. Maximas seem ok but not great. The goldini zucchini patch seems good.

The watermelon plants might be a bit on the small side.

Corn is starting to tassle.

I still haven't completed a complete first weed through of the gardens but made some more progress. It's possible that some of the rows of flint corn are just doomed.

Doing my first pass of watering for the year before the heat we're supposed to have this week (32C daytime, 14C nighttime, which is surprising for us). I need some sort of a pressure booster for my hoses, the pressure tank for my well is too erratic to do irrigation usefully, but here we are.

My squash are sending up male flowers only so far, but a couple melons are somehow a little ahead of the squashes.

I've been doing a bit of weeding, the pennycress is almost seeding so I'm trying to get it to the pigs before the seed drops.

Daikon is up and on its first set of (slightly flea-beetled) leaves, along with more lettuces etc. Turnips are lovely. Still in love with b carinata, which has leaves thick enough that the flea beetles don't really impact it substantially-- the leaves get pocked but not holes nor broken down into lace.

The Crowpocalypse on my corn beds meant I'd underseeded a bunch of my corn with greens, including lettuces, and then replanted the beds when the corn was killed. There was enough soil disturbance to make the underplanting very patchy, and I'd taken those markers down in the garden. Now I have a very splashy, breathtakingly lovely collection of mostly-romaine-looking lettuces that I cannot trace back to their origin, but I very much want to keep growing in the future. Letting some go to seed was always the plan, so this doesn't really change much. They really are gorgeous though.

My dry beans are very slow, blossoms on some of them just coming out and others probably will wait till later this week. Also my favas don't seem to be setting seed right? They bloom and then shrivel.

I'm collecting seed from my first capsicum pubescens crosses, which is fun. I'm not yet used to opening them up and seeing black seeds. The plants seem to be unhappy on my deck, they're pretty yellow, I think it may be sun bleaching.

Most of my energy is going into a new permaculture food forest-style perennial planting down by the house: apples, ribes, old roses, haskaps, sour cherries, grapes, comfrey, rhubarb, sweet ciciley, asparagus, mint, horseradish, skirret, that sort of thing all with some serious microclimating plans. I know I'll later regret putting it in without eradicating the aspen completely first, but I want to put in the screen for my neighbours asap.

Everything has loved this heat. Corn has roughly doubled in biomass volume in the last week, squash has tripled, tomato patch is as expected a solid mat by now -- best for cross-pollination, I think. My speckled tomato plant still has speckled tomatoes.

I have been watering with the one sprinkler that takes my well's pressure -- set it in place, timer for an hour, move it over one increment, timer for an hour, repeat. I'm aiming to hit every spot once a week which seems to work. They're calling for rain by midweek so I can relax after that.

Work has been a lot of kms on my legs with a heavy pack of water in the heat so I haven't been doing much in the evenings. This weekend I'm going to play with a bunch more crosses -- maybe I'll make a cup of tea and do that right now, actually.

Once I start getting ripe fruit I think I'm going to take cuttings from my favourite of the promiscuous plants to bring in and play with during the winter. Why not? Hydroponics really makes that easy.

My peppers are mostly in small holding pots, but I do keep intending to pot them up. It really am enjoying their diversity.

Meanwhile I'm laying out more perennial beds and mucking the duck and goose barns out onto cardboard where I want those beds next year, lasagne-style. A fall and winter should give them enough time for the grass to break down and the bedding to compost enough.

My watering strategy is to try to hit everything I can for six to 12 hours on the weekend with a sprinkler or soaker hose. I don't always get everything watered.

Bought more soaker hose (300 feet) to replace some that got old and tore. Hard to do anything but water and pick a few tomatoes and other seeds.

I started to pull the garlic on Friday, which was three weeks from scapes being cut and usually spot on for the time they're ready.   I think it was about right for the glazers, which are smaller anyway as they're still growing up from bulbils, and in a couple of cases starting to split those inside wrappers.   I started on the main crop of Marbled Purple Stripes but after pulling the first variety I stopped.   The bulbs are crazy small!   It is not just the effects of a winter without snow cover, although I can see that didn't help.  But it seems to me these bulbs can't have grown at all during the hottest weather and high UV.   They all look pretty 'stricken' with browning of all tips and half leaves, but under the ground they're not done. The ground is plenty moist down at the bulb level so it's not moisture deficit.    Leaving the rest for another full week if it doesn't rain heavily.
Meanwhile the Prelude wheat is getting close to harvest time.  I read that they should be harvested before full maturity due to shattering.  So I plan to cut and hang them indoors to finish maturing.  Some of the Emmers from the Blue Tinge group are also very close.

Goldini is doing good. I found a suspected teosinte.

Garden is interesting this year.

I suspect a lot of things are behind where they should be for mid-August. Okra, Melons, Squash (except Goldini), Sorghum, peppers are all a bit stunted I would say to put a word on it.

Tomatoes might be stunted but they always are a bit.

I think the common beans are overcrowded.

Same with the row of direct seeded tomatoes that ended up being a wide strip of volunteers. Overcrowded probably should have thinned.

Tomato harvest is a little overwhelming but not nearly as bad as it could be if they were doing better. It still may yet get there.

Lots of heat though and some things are catching up a bit now. Moschata and mixed pepo squash are finally setting. Maxima has a few decent fruits. Goldini is a highlight with what looks like a decent seed crop already far advanced. A few cucumbers which suffered a severe deer browsing event are producing fruits and some of those, look like they might ripen seed. Including one Lofthouse long yellow cucumber.

The scarlet runner beans are happily attracting hummingbirds. The tepary beans are setting bean pods now.

I tried a few volunteer carrots. Mostly yucky. Found one I liked and tried to save about an inch of the top in the fridge to replant. It was orange with a purple core.

My fava beans are mostly harvested. One patch was a complete failure of the four. A couple only had two or three plants each. I did get a hand full of green and a hand full of tan thumb print ones back. Lost the purple thumbprint though. Found one pretty brown speckled purple though.

Plants here are stunted also.  Tomatos are doing the best but maybe two or three weeks behind where they were last year.  Peppers just producing a crop.  Okra almost a month behind and only three squash.  It's cooler off some and it rained last week so okra are finally to grow larger leaves.

Tomato harvest is a bit onerous lately but not too bad, as I've managed to drain off a few kilos here and there to relatives, friend's CSA, and not least my dear Mom.  Loading up the car with about 6 kilos yesterday for her to manage.   Worst is keeping up with containers to pick into.
Tomato plants are hit pretty bad with the summer funk.  Leaves are a mess and the fruit keeps ripening fast..  I'm holding off a big chopdown hoping to see the green ones hit their stride but the bulk of the crop is coming on strong.
Garlic is in, trimmed and curing.  Not a great year but still we have plenty.   
Just shucked my crop of soup peas from the dwarf peas and barley rows.  Very pleased with the yield from Margaret McKee and the timing with Black Hulless Barley was perfect too.  These peas produced a lot better being planted in single rows, cw the double row last year to 'hold each other up'.  They preferred barley supports.  A fast crop and a good yield.
All of the wheats/spelts that were ready enough got harvested yesterday and are hanging to dry.
I've been picking soup peas from the tall trellises as soon as they're mature.  No moose yet this season, some bird or squirrel is getting a few. But you never know, could be moose any day and the end of it.   I planted a mix of soup peas this time, some of which finish a lot earlier.  So I have some vines going yellow now while others are just getting in stride.  The idea being that moose might not find it so appealing with the early ones going down.  It doesn't look impressive that's for sure but I am pickin peas and happy enough.  OTOH my snow peas are peaking with a great yield of pods and perfectly green and luscious, so I suspect the moose would be tempted by that instead, if or when they show up.  I believe the unusual heat has kept them from traveling around as they normally do, sticking very close to ponds for cooling, and every tree and shrub as well has had a full season to grow without being chewed down for a change.   
Sugar Beet X Chard F2 seed is mostly in, also drying is B. Oleraceae seed of simultaneously flowering Yod Fah gailan and a purple sprouting Kale (probably a psb F1 cross  itself, which came to me as saved Red Spear).  Lettuce seed just starting to fluff a few.  Tomato seed is mostly done, one more round of 4 jars and that's it for the year.
With a beautiful slightly drizzly day today at 17C I weeded forked and limed a couple of the garlic out beds before some actual measurable rain? We hope for tonight.

Squash and corn are getting riper.

I think next year I will plant a patch of corn with all kernel types mixed. I think painted mountain genetics need to be spread to the other kernel types.

Pepo squash Mandan x Lofthouse grex is looking nice. Lots of hybrids from last year's three way natural cross showing that they are in fact hybrids. Letting Zephyr F1 set some seed. Hoping for that banded trait.

Carol Deppe's 500 foot plus isolated Goldini squash is setting mature fruits nicely. They are very far along. I can't wait to harvest them.

Moschata squash may make it.

A few Maxima squash would be OK to harvest now but could mature more.

Watermelons may produce but no dry tendrils yet.

Getting a few ripe beans.

Sorghum is heading out more.

Tomatoes are a bit overwhelming.

Ah its great that you are growing Goldini squash ! Have you tasted some immature fruits ?

Quote from: Nicollas on 2022-08-28, 12:13:29 AM
Ah its great that you are growing Goldini squash ! Have you tasted some immature fruits ?

Yes, my impression was that they are very bland. That may be by design. I would really like to dry some in my food dehydrator but not sure if I'll have time. I remember Carol saying that she bred them specifically in part for dry flavor of the immature fruits. Most of the crop is going to seed and is pretty far along. I suspect if frost came tomorrow, I would have some viable seed.

Flavor wise I think Lofthouse Crookneck has spoiled me a little.

Tepary beans, common bush beans, half runners are all ripe, corn is getting ripe seed, maxima squash look good. Moschata squash are going to make it, pepo squash look good.

However, with pepo squash, if you harvest before it freezes and you kind of have to. How do you tell it's ripe? I might have some of Carol Deppe's Goldini that ripe but am not sure.

My gold nugget squash really came through this year: I tossed seed out in an unwatered, weedy row with some other squash seeds after I'd transplanted my fancy squash out in a different part of the garden, so they were at least six weeks behind. They are forming firm rinds, and they were in the middle of that grex row and just up from another grex patch, so here's hoping they have viable seeds in there. Everything else is fun, but it's the kabochas and gold nuggets that I really want seed from. There are several what I think are lofthouse buttercups that might make it too; not knowing what anything is makes it hard to figure out whether something is a small squash that's sized up, or a small one still growing. Anyhow, fingers crossed for maximas.

Tomatoes are really only starting; I'm going to have crates of green ones in the house again I think. My mixed patch has a neon orange one I find pretty interesting. More tasting tonight.

With corn I can only wait.

Beans don't look like they'll make it; guess I'll be pickling a bunch this year.

I am anxiously watching the biggest melon, it's been the same size for awhile but doesn't look like it's doing much.

Cleared the spot for my winter grain, need to till it but it would be nice to get a bit of rain first.

My three tiny test triticales are almost done; two ripened and the third sent up a ton of tillers which have not yet done so.

Cucumber seed is all in. Pepper seed is coming in. This is a weird year.

Picked more tepary beans today. The ones from yesterday look like they dried down a lot. There were some that were still a little plump and moist though most were nice and dry. Have two paper plates of tepary drying and one paper plate of common bush bean types.

I think Emmy Lou's Golden Bean is dominating the common bush bean types. Then blue speckled is dominating the tepary beans. This may be entirely due to founder effects. I had a little bit more of those two beans to start with for each of their respective types.

Speaking of triticale, I was reading about it last week and found this:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303729004_Triticale_Breeding-Progress_and_Prospect
Very nice overview of triticale issues.   I did try a small patch one year but they were too late for that season, for sure.

If it's any consolation, the heat is bringing garden to a wrap here just as effectively as cold weather normally does.  Although I admit, it is nice not to think about trays of green tomatoes to triage.   None of the plants that are starting to flower again have enough time to make fruit, leaves are a mess, so now it's just the takedown work when the last of these ripens.
All my grains have been harvested except for a few head of Zhukovsky, the rest and the last were brought in this week.  I'll prep those beds for garlic but not much is happening in the heat except for picking.
Been shucking a certain number of grain heads to check for pest rates - caterpillars in some as well as grain beetles in some others.  A few beetles in the soup peas as well.  I harvested quite a lot of soup peas this year with no moose visiting.   Only a few pods of Bulroyd left to pick.  Tall pea plants are ready for teardown, and the snow peas are not looking so hot either, leaves are covered in spots, but Tai Chung has been pumping out the peas and flowering more and again, so you never know, they may produce a few more yet and outgrow the blight for another week, maybe.   I had a few kousa to pick and a few more coming on, the remaining lettuce is starting to bolt and cabbage butterflies took out the bok choy and arugula. 
I do have buckwheat starting to flower in the garlic bed by the door.  I hope that has time to set some seeds for me.

Picked some squash for seed today today. Goldini, two Mandan x Crookneck F1, and a couple maximas. Couldn't find a moschata I thought should be picked. I am nervous though because my new neighbor goats followed my neighbor dogs over for a visit. Asked some of my goat knowledgeable friends and neighbors and goats sound very herbivorous.

Also picked some more beans and the first two ripe cowpea pods. White seeds maybe fast lady.

It's apple season, 2-3 batches through the canner per 24 hours a I work to stay ahead of the bears.

Today I take everything warm-weather in - beans that didn't ripen enough to dry down, for pickling; squash that I think can ripen enough for seed but aren't cured (no squash made it to dead-vine-and-cured stage outside), squash corn beans and green tomatoes that didn't ripen enough for storage, for relish; corn for seed that has/will ripen enough to germinate next year; green tomatoes that can still turn in the next two months; pepper plants; those couple melons that are full sized but not quite ripe, for seed; whole bean plants that I think are close enough to ripening to dry down.

Last night was the first frost up at my friend's up the hill, hard frost on the car windows. Here it was just a bare breath on the tips of a couple pepper leaves as far as I can see; I'll walk the upper garden at lunch since any damage should be visible by then. Supposed to be a touch colder tonight.

Patchy frost predicted. Picked more squash but left a lot to mature more.

Put sprinklers on the moschata squash and the LA2329 Solanum habrochaites patch.

Picked a few more Cowpeas all white so far.

Picked some watermelons.

Picked some seed tomatoes.

Garden is still mostly plugging along. Some sections froze and are done but lots are still doing great.

We got quite a bit of rain as well.

Sunflowers especially Tiger Teddy are very late this year.

The scarlet runner beans are late this year too.

Here September is nearly past and still we're getting lots of warm weather.  Kousa continuing to produce although I haven't watered more than once or paid them any attention. Still a few tomatoes blushing but what's left of the plants are a mess - I even stopped watering them in the greenhouse most of the time and I haven't kept up with stem rot left by my pruners, hmm. So there's a big greenhouse and garden cleanup pending that has just been neglected for the time being. There's always a crush of non garden work this time of year, and just nice to get a day to go dig the potatoes.  I picked some apples too for my Mom before Fiona in case of wind but luckily the impact here was negligible.  I've been busy enough with work to put my wheat threshings on hold, but finally finished cleaning brassica seeds today. I have one more big bag of the SugarBeetXChard F2 to clean.  Peas got finished last night - it is still really humid in the house though, and some pods have been very slow to dry.  I'm pleased with the amount of fava seed I got from just a few square feet.  Still setting pods. Perennial wheat is looking pretty tall under the row cover, which I'm keeping in place not taking any chances on the grasshoppers, rabbits and mystery guests.  Buckwheat is still loaded with blooms and pollinators - mostly flies and wasps, only a few bumblebees still foraging the sunny side of the garden.

Frost warning the other night so I brought in remaining tomatoes, moschata squash, and seed okra pods.  There ended up not being a frost.  I have one pepper that I left outside because I hope to get seeds from it.  It's not ripe yet. I have saved seeds from just about everything I grew this year including one okra plant that did much better than the rest called Zambia Landrace II from Buffalo Seed Company.  This was my first attempt at Landrace gardening.  Excited to now have my seeds for next year.

Zombie garden keeps on kicking. A few gardens froze but plenty did not.

Zombie garden is ongoing. I thought Tuesday might be its end but then the forecast for frost improved somewhat. I am harvesting bits here and there.

Wish I could make sorghum syrup somehow. It may manage a big seed crop. I picked my favorite / earliest stalk last weekend and set it in the garage to further ripen. It has enough seed on it alone to try again.

Do you grind up the stalk and process the juice?

Yep but I never have and don't know where to start. I don't want to buy $250 of equipment.

I wonder if an old-fashioned hand-cranked meat grinder would work.  I have one, but they may only be available in antique stores now.

You can still get them at places like gander mountain that sell hunting stuff and some meat processing stuff.

The equipment I've seen for sorghum syrup processing was more like a series of ringers that were flat and crimped to crush open the stem and then squeeze out the juice to cook down. It had a big gear on the top that would have a post through it and a horse or mule hitched to it. Walking around the whole machine while people passed stalks inside the horse path circle to someone feeding stalks into the machine.

I rototilled today. The most protected bed of outside tomatoes is still alive aside from those in the greenhouse. It should die any day but I thought I had seen it alive for the last time last weekend!

Found seeds that I lost during the move.

Now, I have copy seeds of some things since I thought I'd lost some of this stuff. Kind of a "yay" and a "what do I do with the extra packets" sorta feeling.


Tossed some Ribes divaricatum, Ribes roezlii, Maclura pomifera, Maclura tricuspidata around an area right next to the forest. Basically on / around a spot with a small, diseased purple leaved cherry "tree". Lot of cankers on it.

It seems to be recovering, due to it being away from any buildings and next to an old forest, I'd assume it's a volunteer of some sort from who knows when.


Maclura tricuspidata may not love any form of partial shade or excess water right here.

I'm hoping that it does well enough to one day to one day at least flower and look nice. I'm also hoping it will cross with the Osage orange that will be next to it.

I'm assuming the Osage orange fruits will fall into the nearby stream at some point. I say probably, it's almost definitely because it's very close to the forest edge where I planted this, a few feet probably.


Maclura fruits with potential hybrids stored in them floating down a stream. That could be interesting. I don't think Che likes wet feet - streams.

Though, if animals happen across a hybrid with palatable, edible fruits that's growing in a river or a stream - and they came over for a drink...

I suppose that would be interesting.

https://www.sciencealert.com/fluke-discovery-of-ancient-farming-technique-could-stabilize-crop-yields

Interesting article.

Talks about maslins. Which, those have been known about for awhile.


Basically, there's the tradition of fellows planting soybeans, and then corn - different years / seasons of whatever - letting animals onto those areas every so often, alternating.


This method, rather than having monoculture fields, yeah they alternate crops here - but there's still fields of a single species. This one has a bunch of different species grown next to each other.

Some people may just see this as companion cropping and whatnot. Native Americans did something similar or a type of maslin using beans, squash and corn.

That is typically called the three sisters method. Further research shows that some tribes had Caigua - another cucurbit, melothria - some chenopodium species and other things also intermixed in that method, or different tribes did things a bit differently than another.

Mexico and those surrounding areas traded with South America quite a bit apparently, so they shared crops.


Moving on to what Maslins do:

Throw barley, oats, rye and wheat all into the same plots without separating them. Pests go down, typically get a higher yield than if just wheat or another species was planted there. Diseases and fungi also go down.

And, as the article says - this is feasible using grains because you can always make bread using these - separating them is possible and grains can be harvested using the same equipment usually.

The general idea is that if the weather isn't good, you will still always get a crop.



I may try this out with non grains. I don't use any harvesting equipment of any sort anyway.

Granted, same plant families will still be separated to an extent, as will vining plants.

Vining plants may be toss in with other things in the future.


The downside with mixing grains, and just making bread with all of then, would probably be the flavors that people don't like. And allergies.


I'm planting some Chasmanthium latifolium seed. Those may make it into some grain mixes or things at some point. If I do use those to make bread, it'll probably be in a mixed bread. Doesn't seem like it would be fun to try cultivating it for that purpose right away.


I believe that the species spreads aggressively.

Wild wheat and barley can spread aggressively too.


Figured I'd put this plan on here.

I think they do sort of the same thing in China. Despite being about the same size, rice beans are called rice beans because, traditionally, you planted them where your rice paddies were after you had drained them for the harvest. You got some extra food, the soil got a bit of extra nitrogen (if you tilled the plants in once you had harvested, and it helped to keep the weeds from forming an impenetrable cover you had to chop through once you needed to prepare the paddy for the next growing season.)

Oh, and this is just personal opinion, but I prefer the term "feral" to "wild" for things like wheat and barley. Real wild wheat is the actual wild einkorn and emmer that grows over parts of the caucuses, and that is genetically distinct.  In my book, calling grain that has escaped from cultivation wild would sort of be like calling a feral horse (like a mustang or a brumby) a tarpan, or a feral cow (which they have in Australia) an aurochs. 

I'm pretty sure wild accessions used for study escaped at certain points along with actual crops.

And a lot of wild types aren't as easily harvested.

So, I'm unsure of how to label them.


But yeah, mixing crops in plantings like this seems neat.


I have been wanting to try to grow Khorasan wheat. Seems to have the same chromosome count as Einkorn, Durum etc.

I believe the species has around 16,000 planted acres worldwide and prefers dry soils. Also supposed to have a rich, nutty flavor.



I always get a bit lost on how to classify wheat species. All of the cultivated types seem to have different ancestors more or less, and a lot of them crossed with things in another genus.

Then there's intergenetic hybrids made with other grains.





Single group plantings have always just looked like a large disease and pest vector to me. And I feel like eventually, wild resistant genes will run out after things caused by these plantings adapt.

Seeing acres of one crop feels unnatural.

That's interesting and makes alot of sense. I have such small amounts that I'm starting to grow grains. Once I have an amount of them I definitely want to try a mixed plot now.

There's also the added benefit, some insect predators or a lot of them - won't nest on certain species.

Their main food source or a preferred one, may be on those plants.

Or pesticides kill everything, including predators.


Doing something like Promiscuous tomatoes mixed with greens or self seeding plants, maybe some perennials - could be interesting.

I set up an area back in PA that spawned a huge nest of ladybugs every year.

Right next to the garden, pile of rocks stacked beneath a tree.

They would end up feasting on whiteflies and other pests. If the pests returned, they did too.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-01-17, 01:00:11 PMI'm pretty sure wild accessions used for study escaped at certain points along with actual crops.

Near where experiments are done, sure. But most random grain you see on the side of the roads comes from either spillage from grain delivery trucks or grains that were still in straw spread out on the side of the road for some reason (usually to control erosion of dirt that has been turned over for road work.) And that tends to be all domestic.

I suppose that, in some areas, there could also be bit's leftover from long abandoned farms, but generally, within  year or two of any grain dropping, the birds and other critters have eaten so much of it that there isn't enough landing on the ground to come back (i.e. it is not common to find PERMANENT stands of feral grain in most places, they're there for a season, and then disappear.)

Birdseed can also result in small patches which are usually recognizable by the appearance of millet in the mix (once, in Union Square NYC, I saw a dropped pile of birdseed actually result in the growth of viable and flowering peanut plants, as well as some flax.) 

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-01-17, 01:00:11 PMAnd a lot of wild types aren't as easily harvested.

So, I'm unsure of how to label them.

That IS true. Einkorn and emmer need to basically be squeezed out of their glumes. Avena fatua
(a kind of wild oat, which is a MAJOR weed in a lot of places) has that annoying huge coiling and uncoiling hair (which drills it into the ground when it falls) and I bump into far more hulled barley going rouge than naked barley.

With einkorn and emmer there is also the fact that the only real difference between them is ploidy, and einkorn doubles itself into emmer on it's own pretty easily (that's WHY you can discover wild emmer in the Center of Diversity for wheat, it doesn't NEED human intervention to double up. It's actually happened to me with MINE a few times.) 

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-01-17, 01:00:11 PMI always get a bit lost on how to classify wheat species. All of the cultivated types seem to have different ancestors more or less, and a lot of them crossed with things in another genus.

Then there's intergenetic hybrids made with other grains.

If I recall from my botany classes, it's sort of like this. Einkorn is AA (diploid). Double that and you get Emmer (AAAA). Then, the unknown Goat grass came in and added BB. AAAABB equals Durum (past wheat, and also the wheat people tend to use for floral displays, because it looks neater. AABBBB is bread wheat (more gluten, less starch).

Almost of the others are mixes of these in different forms. You get turgium (rivet wheat), polonicum (poulard wheat), zhukovsy, vavivilovii and the other hyper cold resistant ones, and so on.

The one exception is timopheevi which brings in DNA from another wild wheat, Triticum uratu.

I think that compactum (club wheat) and sphaerococcum (shot or globe wheat) are now considered morphological forms rather than distinct subspecies. I've tried shot wheat, but it doesn't work very well for me here (at least the strain I was using didn't).

As for pests, I can only say that, out of all of the wheats I have grown the einkorns and the emmers tended to be the only ones that gave me a good number of clean, blemish free, attractive heads (which, since I use nearly all of my small grain for floral and ornamental purposes, is important to me.) The shot wheat was sucked nearly dry, and most of the grains were little more than "tombstones" (industry term for a shriveled, aborted grain).

The Eastern European species never even came up for me, but maybe I screwed up with regards to them being winter or spring sown grains (Salt Spring Seeds, where I got them from, didn't tell me, so I had to guess. It messed up my sprat barley (Horedum zeocricton) as well.     

Planted some old Amelanchier ovalis seed that I bought at some point next to the garden.

I don't know if they are still viable. Basically found them stuffed away in between pots.

Planted them near the place where I put Osage orange and Che seeds. I'll probably get native Amelanchier species at some point.

Amelanchier arborea can apparently be found in Mississippi. Not much information on it from what I can find.


Strawberries and things are starting to come back. Canna lilies and Kniphofia plants are coming up from shoots and whatnot. In PA, perennials coming back from shoots and things usually gave me a thumbs up for planting certain herbs.

Honestly, because of the zone I could probably get away with a lot of things being started early. Not gonna push my luck though.

Purple Mitsuba, Canadian Honewort seeds came in earlier. I'm hoping to find Cryptotaenia elegans seeds at some point somewhere as it's seemingly edible too.

First two species I mentioned have edible shoots and roots - used that way. Going to try seeing if they'll cross. I'm in zone 8, so I'm unsure how we'll they'll do. Both seem to be at the edge of their comfort zone here.


Purple Shiso seeds came in too.


These things will all be grown in the same space. Probably with Good-King-Henry, some greens and other things as well.

Very mild winters here. Shiso seems to be something that'll self seed readily here. Same story with some other stuff. So, I'm setting up a little spot for these things.


Also got a rare sunflower called "Sunspots", different from Sunspot.

Has variegated leaves - mutation seems to be an unstable type. This means, the seeds will probably never always give out 100% variegated seedlings.


I tried seeing if I had any leftover mutant sunflower seeds that the experimental farm network sold years ago. Doesn't seem to be any left, couldn't even find the old packet.

That one had sunflowers with short petals if I remember correctly. Was also in the same boat of being an unstable mutant.

Sunflowers have a lot of self correction genes.

Neither of the mentioned traits like leaf variegation or short petals are in any commercial varieties to my knowledge.

I'd probably use the variegated types for breeding with red flowered sunflowers or things, not large heading types. I feel like variegation weakens plants. So, this is more of an ornamental breeding experiment or it'll become one at some point.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-01-20, 02:22:46 PMAlso got a rare sunflower called "Sunspots", different from Sunspot.

Has variegated leaves - mutation seems to be an unstable type. This means, the seeds will probably never always give out 100% variegated seedlings.


I tried seeing if I had any leftover mutant sunflower seeds that the experimental farm network sold years ago. Doesn't seem to be any left, couldn't even find the old packet.

That one had sunflowers with short petals if I remember correctly. Was also in the same boat of being an unstable mutant.

Sunflowers have a lot of self correction genes.

Neither of the mentioned traits like leaf variegation or short petals are in any commercial varieties to my knowledge.

I'd probably use the variegated types for breeding with red flowered sunflowers or things, not large heading types. I feel like variegation weakens plants. So, this is more of an ornamental breeding experiment or it'll become one at some point.

I'm growing two kinds of sunflowers next spring, Black Beauty and Envy (at least, I think that's what the green petaled one was called.)

Assuming both do well enough to give me seed back at the end of the year, down the road, when I have more time and space, it might be fun to try and do some crosses to get Black Beauty's near black petals into a pom-pom sunflower.

Sunflowers tend to cross readily, so hybridization usually just requires planting them next to each other and next years seed will mostly be hybrids.

They prefer to outcross, so two Sunflower plants of different varieties would probably result in mostly all hybrid seed between them.



I found a small image of the Experimental Farm Network's Sunflower that I mentioned.

I might post the image.

It's named Tubular Ray Sunflower, luckily their order updates include images, so I found it in an old email from them in 2019.


The name came from the name its typically referred to in studies. Google image searching the term reveals how it looks, also comparisons with it using the Teddy bear type - standard type.

I dont think I used all the seeds, really hoping I find them somewhere.


https://hayefield.com/product/helianthus-annuus-sunspots-variegated-sunflower/

Link with images on the variegated sunflower.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-01-20, 05:59:24 PMSunflowers tend to cross readily, so hybridization usually just requires planting them next to each other and next years seed will mostly be hybrids.

They prefer to outcross, so two Sunflower plants of different varieties would probably result in mostly all hybrid seed between them.



I found a small image of the Experimental Farm Network's Sunflower that I mentioned.

I might post the image.

It's named Tubular Ray Sunflower, luckily their order updates include images, so I found it in an old email from them in 2019.


The name came from the name its typically referred to in studies. Google image searching the term reveals how it looks, also comparisons with it using the Teddy bear type - standard type.

I dont think I used all the seeds, really hoping I find them somewhere.


https://hayefield.com/product/helianthus-annuus-sunspots-variegated-sunflower/

Link with images on the variegated sunflower.

Hmm, then the following year's flowers will be.....interesting (what color DO you get if you cross black and green? Brown?)

Hard to say.

Depends what makes up the colors in the plant along with other genes I'd imagine.

Sometimes green in flowers is a lack of a color or just a ton of chlorophyll.

So, crossing the brown flowered sunflower might just make another brown sunflower or a bunch of green and brown ones in the F2.

Or, the two genes may have one that's completely or near completely dominant over the other so the other one wouldn't show up.


I'll try researching sunflower color genes later. I wouldn't be surprised if there's multiple green flower genes along with multiple brown ones.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-01-21, 12:18:23 AMHard to say.

Depends what makes up the colors in the plant along with other genes I'd imagine.

Sometimes green in flowers is a lack of a color or just a ton of chlorophyll.

So, crossing the brown flowered sunflower might just make another brown sunflower or a bunch of green and brown ones in the F2.

Or, the two genes may have one that's completely or near completely dominant over the other so the other one wouldn't show up.


I'll try researching sunflower color genes later. I wouldn't be surprised if there's multiple green flower genes along with multiple brown ones.

Well Black Beauty is really more of a very deep mahogany crimson, so I'd guess a super dose of the red pigment.

The green is a pale lime green, which sounds like a little chlorophyll plus a lack of yellow.

So actually, if the two really did mix, you'd probably get more or less a very slightly brownish red, Or else more or less the same deep red with a slightly more brownish cast.

To get a fully brown one, you might have to first keep upping the amount of chlorophyll in the petal of the green one until you had one whose petals were the same color as the leaves (which, given that I have never seen a green variation of a normally non-green flower EVER get that dark, is probably impossible.)   

Planted Lime Basil, Lemon Basil, Blue Spice Basil, African Numnum Basil, Holy Kaprao Basil, Indian Coriander, Coriander, Dill - I have some older parsley and cilantro that I planted early popping up too, they are on their first or second leaves.

Started 4 cells of Exserted Tiger, 1 Cherokee Tiger Large, 1 Cherokee Tiger Black, 1 Lutescent, 1 Green Ripper, 4 Chmielewsky, 1 Copper Currant, 4 Wild Hairy tomato HR, 4 Peruvianum Lofthouse, 1 Burnley Bounty, 1 Double Rich, 1 Keith Alissa Gold Leaf, 4 HR Peruvianum, 1 stick tomato, 1 Purple Smudge, 1 Alberto Shatters, 1 Wild Gem, 4 Arcanum Pink Cherry, 4 Heirloom Reviews Woolly Currant, 1 Wild Currant From Peru, 1 Weight In Gold, 1 White Beauty, 1 Island Sunrise, 1 Butter Apple, 1 Big Hill, 4 Exserted Orange, 4 Orange Hill, 1 Oscar Pearson Hard Fruit, 5 Costoluto Florentino, 2 S. arcanum, 4 Chilense Type 2, 4 J.F. Macbr's Wild, 1 Galapagos Island, 1 Galapagos Island #2, 2 Galapagos Wild Minor Type 2, 4 Wild Hairy Type 2.

12 cells of Pierce Lester, 8 cells of Mary's Niagra,  2 cells of baker creek ground cherry 2020 - unnamed, 2 cells of Denver perennial, 8 Queen Of Malinalco.


4 cells of Melazane Rossa Di Rotonda, 4 cells Kitley, 4 Japanese White Egg, 2 Gboma, 2 Upper Volta Garden Egg, 4 Chi Yei, 4 Chinese String,

2 HR Pepino Lloron, 2 WoodlandCreationz Tzimbalo, 2 Mycalasona Tzimbalo. First one is the species closely related to Pepinos "true species". Second ones the common type. Third has red seeds.

2 Matt's Peppers Cannibal Tomato, 2 HR Cannibal Tomato. One is slightly smaller than the other, different shade of color - none are the same color / size as the other seed provider. There's multiple types of that variety - accidentally bought a second packet since I lost the one at first.

2 Kangaroo Apple, 2 Large Kangaroo Apple, 4 Solanum linearifolium X Aviculare, 4 Solanum Vescum X Aviculare, 4 S. sturtianum.

4 Lulo, 2 S. stramniifolium, 2 S. ferox, 2 S. candidum , 2 Cocona.

4 Bombona, 4 Jiquiri.

2 Jaltomata sinuosa, 4 Jaltomata cajacayensis, 2 Back Serrated Jaltomata.

4 Everglades 41 Kenaf, 4 Kagawa Sunset Hibiscus, 4 Korean Silkflower, 4 Molokhia, 4 Red Roselle.

I'll be growing those last ones alongside the spot I'm planting Okra, maybe I'll toss in Marshmallow seeds into the area too.

Doubt I'll get anything "fun" from that, but the bees will probably like it.

At this time I am thinking descendants of The One! and Mission Mountain Rising for certain.  Also Exserted Tiger, Exserted Orange, and Mission Mountain Morning.  My plants of The One! are still flowering and producing a small amount of tomatos.  May try to plant them outside this spring.  Also, am planning Bison, Purple Zebra, Amana Orange, Galina, Lyana Pink, and possibly Firesteel. 

For peppers I am planning saved seeds from serrano tampiqueno, pablano, banana, and Korean chilis.  I bought a pack of Fish peppers.

For squash Lofthouse and Canada Crookneck I saved from last year plus Guatemalan Ayote, and Arabat.  Not sure what else yet since I have so many packs of seed!

For okra saved seeds from last year's group of survivors: Cajun Jewel, Dwarf Long Pod, Cowhorn, Baby Bubba, and Zambia Landrace II.  I have Catawba Freedman, Puerto Rico Everblush, Heavy Hitter, Ken's, Burgundy, and Zambia Landrace I plus most of a pack of Ultracross for this year.  I might try starting some in my grow tent this year and see how it compares to direct seeding.

I also have 3 kinds of garlic and 2 kinds of sorghum I am trying.

To my knowledge Cajun Jewel and Long Pod are both dwarf okras.  I watered my okra very sparsely last year and it was a drought year so these survivors are tough ones.

I'm doing corn, beans, melons, corn - probably no watermelon or squash.

I have 3 Okra grexes from The Experimental Farm Network.

Motherland Okra from Bakercreek seems neat. Plus the heavy hitter okra.

Motherland Okra's leaves seem like I could carry a cat or two around in them judging from the images.

Believe the pods become woody pretty quickly. Seems like the variety was possibly used for its leaves and whatnot - heavily.

Description says 6 - 8 feet in some climates. 15 feet in other ones.

Mississippi is probably a decent climate with the humidity and whatnot, for Okra. Haven't grown it before, lived in PA till last year.


Also growing some beans.

Using almanac and locals estimates on when to start stuff.

Did end up planting peppers. Someone else said I could get away with doing them still, few people did.

Believe they said starting them up till April is OK, they hardly ever get big frosts - long season. Pretty late for them, I guess.

Did plant two Tubocapsicum anomalum cells, along with the Cannibal Tomato and a bunch of other species  weeks ago with the tomatoes. Noticed the Tubocapsicum had some germination on it.


Ok, so for the peppers -

Did one cell of an old paper packet of C. flexuosum, one HRseeds flexuosum, and one from Brazil, sourced there.

4 Bullnose cells, 4 Orange Bell cells. 2 Murasaki Purple cells, 2 Elephant peppers (Not trunk or the other one - this is the embroidered variety), 4 CGN 19198, 2 Dwarf Tepin, 1 Dwarf Aji Charapita, 1 CGN 20800, 2 Alpine Poblano (Would've done 1 or two 4 packs - neighbors growing these too - but the standard variety), 2 or 4 Mountain Roaster Peppers, 4 Perfect Sweet Italian Swarm, 2 Candy Cane Chocolate Cherry, 2 Cañoncito, 4 Ninfadora, 4 Sugar Rush Peach Stripey, 4 Aji de Colorado Alpino, 4 USDA Cardenasii, 4 Mini Olive Rocoto, 2 Dragon's Breath *2*, 2 Hellfire Chili Chocolate, 4 Carbanero X BBG7 Chocolate.

I have no idea what USDA accession one of these came from.

Cañoncito apparently has a precocious flowering thing going on. The Dwarf Types have some sort of dwarfing gene - figured I'd try an Annum and a Chinense dwarf.

CGN 19198 - said to be either C. praetermissum or C. eximium.

Fatali has it marked as Capsicum sp. and they claim they don't believe it to be either species.


Capsicum Cardenasii, appears to be rather interesting. Got free seeds from someone before.

Mini Olive Rocoto - You typically can't go and buy rocotos at the store here, let alone mutant green ones (these ripen to green).


Not growing a ton of each species - I will grow more in the future, I also may make more cells or things - split cells. I'll see.


Was hoping I still had seeds for a Chinense - Annum cross that goes back to either parent somewhat easily too.

A lot of these, I'm going to allow to cross.

Lot of the things like Flexuosum may be in containers or more permanent placements - ornamental spots.

I sorta wanna see if I can cross the little fruited guys before trying to mix them into domestics.

I'll try making arrangements to send seed out for this kind of stuff.

I'm not sure if anyone's noticed, but I purchased these with colder climate breeding in mind. Still works here, but I can only test certain amounts of cold.

Went ahead and ordered some seed starting trays and things. Couldn't find anything in the store the other day when I was in town. Either crappy ones that fall apart or nicer ones way higher priced. So it made sense to order online for the pricing and get what I want.

A while back I planned out all the starting dates and put them in the calendar. To make myself not plant stuff way early and have enormous tomato starts and running out of space, etc. So nothing will get started here til after middle of March.

Just have to get some bag soil. Definitely need to up my composting game to be able to use. The garden soil is too clay and weed seedy to try to use this year.

I did a crazy thing and started a load of pepper seeds around new years.  Just trying that out to see if I can get ripe peppers before the ants and aphids wake up and smell the party.   Lucky or not, all my seeds of favorite peppers were too old to germinate, but I ended up with eleven plants from a supermarket 'snack pepper' seeds.   They are more than ready to pot up at this point.  I managed to pick up an extra half dozen bags of compost so I'm okay for dirt, it's finding pots is the issue.  Small enough that I don't run out of windowsill space, cause that's all I have for them.  Hope it's enough, for the length of daylight this early in the year.

Yeah, I mark trays and other stuff to make sure I have room for everything I want.

I order my trays and cells online. Usually order trays from greenhouse megastore. Trays there are firm, don't break really. Can get away with reusing them for awhile.


Did check stuff up for neighbors stuff and whatnot, they're confusing planting out dates and seed starting dates I believe.

Though, they haven't gardened in years, aren't originally from around here and others start at different times to my knowledge.

I'm going off Jackson's charts since most almanacs, websites and stuff give me that for my area.

Pretty accurate.

Musa basjoo, Musella Lasiocarpa, Knifolia Lola, Coal Miner Elephant Ear and Cleopatra Canna Lily have returned.

Ordered them online late last year. Only one thing hasn't returned yet.


On the subject of "Musella lasiocarpa", there also exists a Chinese cultivar called Musella lasiocarpa 'Foxi Jinlian.


Here's some sites on the Red variations or that cultivar itself:

https://aucview.aucfan.com/yahoo/w90307878/

https://www.ahs.ac.cn/EN/Y2013/V40/I4/811

Images here show a red type too:

https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:585005-1/images



I believe I read it's an ecotype or something. I'm seeing a bit of variation in the species. If anyone knows of anyone who's imported Red types or grown out imported seed - please let me know.

The species itself was thought to be extinct in the wild at some point, is mostly found in isolated areas in the wild to my knowledge and its habitats are shrinking.

I'd probably let them freely cross - female flowers are the most visited by bees to my understanding. This increases the chances of cross pollination quite a bit.

My area is a hummingbird central at parts of the year, least that'sehst others say and what I saw when moving here.

Trying to plant things they like. Milkweed seeds were planted, just waiting to see if they come up.

My social media is full of seed starting and lambing. 23 days until I can start some seeds. And I'm about to be two weeks into lambing due dates and still no lambs! Crossing my fingers for them to start this weekend...

I did pop an apple seed into a little cup because it looked like it was starting to grow already, right from the apple. It's now a few inches high. I've got it under a light and hoping it doesn't get leggy.

I finally dumped out a tote that I brought from PA yesterday.

Put it between the herb beds, reusing the soil - like two flowers were still alive in it, dead litchi tomato parts and other things.

Gently removed some seedlings as well.

In the fall I found local trees and things, cool looking natives. Tossed them in there.


That was all since August - towards the end of it.

Found some acorns with roots coming out of them, somewhat deep or whatever in the soil as I dumped it.

They looked different than the local acorns, could be PA acorns.

I left those go in the soil / peat.

The spikes on the litchi made it so most chipmunks or squirrels here (they're huge here), didn't touch the tote.

Also saw some bugs and stuff come out of the soil as I flattened it a bit when it was out of the tote.

An hour or two ago, over 12 hours later - an imported red ant hill in the herb bed that I need to remove (right next to this), was overflowing with red ants.

I saw them carry two large redants away from the hill, black ants were going into their hill.

Looked like a war.


I don't think red ants have any predators here.

They are horribly invasive. From what I saw, they were all jumping the other ants in clusters, which only served to slow a few down. The larger black ants took out many reds at a time, though there were less than them.

I wanna say it looked like the reds took their queens and evacuated.

Did I introduce new ants by mistake?

I'm fairly sure they're native to the states at the very least. And red ants are hated here.

Should I cleanse that area?

I think they are ones from PA.

Once I remember my password, I'll post images or try to.

Went inside to grab my phone and the reds has burrowed back into their colony to deal with larger black ones that entered while they dealt with ones outside.

More black ants were crawling onto the bed upwards, and going in while that happened.

There were also some small black ones crawling around.


Back home, they were able to bite me but I don't think they made huge colonies. And you'd have to actually mess with them proactively to tick them off.

I did see them fight territorially back home. Or defend themselves and follow other ants home if they tried anything.

Also saw them carry long leg spiders and grasshoppers away before.

I tried giving them borage seeds, scrap food before which I saw them carry into their hills before. Usually sandy looking hills, they burrow but there's a small bit of hive above ground.


I also know it rains a lot up here and unlike at home, the toat became soaked. Like very wet soil. Red ant hills ended up at the bottom surrounding the tote.

I'm unsure if that would've trapped them or if they had any reasons to go that long a distance to get out of the tote since there was still dropping leaves which attracted bugs and earth worms were still in it.

Or maybe the red ants attacked the black ones, or it happened the opposite way.

I wouldn't be surprised if they saw there's an ant hill and non soaked soil nearby, in Peat moss like they were living in, and started climbing up?

Either way, they were all attacking the reds hill, reds were running and carrying what looked like small egg shell fragments, other things and booking it.

Some were going back in and attacked the black ants that went under or the ones up top.

It was interesting to see, I guess.

But, should I kill them?

They're territorial at best. Reds are too.

I still probably need to fully confirm they're from PA. They could've just been drowned by soil I placed there and moved upwards.

Not an Allegheny mounding ant. Nor pavement ants.

Back home they built sandy noticeable mounds, killed some grass in areas but they tended to make them in places with no grass.

Plus the predatory aspect to them, they'd eat a lot of fallen apples along with bees too.

Did I understand correctly that you may have brought the black ants, but the reds are already living there and are a pest?   If so I'd be glad, personally, to have ants that beat back the nastier ones.

I have several species of ants in my garden and area.  There are big black carpenter ants which feed on dead wood, and these are a big problem if they get into your house.  The carpenter ants come in multiple sizes as well, with the big ones and queens (also big, usually seen when winged and dispersing) most noticeable but they also have picnic sized workers and tiny pin ants which they use as scouts, and those can get into tiny cracks and also chaperone the queens into places they find to nest.  Carpenter ants are their own problem (for structures) but they do not farm aphids.  The aphid farmer adult ants are "picnic ant" size and black, and as far as I know may as well be the 'picnic ant'.  They like sweets and will get into your kitchen.  They use scouts (normal sized) very effectively: the scouts are very furtive and will also freeze and hold still for long periods hoping you don't see them.  These are a huge pest for getting into the greenhouse and infesting my crops there.   They also develop fairly large hills over time in dry grassy areas, which become a source for indoor trouble.   And third there is a small half red- half black ant which for lack of a name I'll call the blueberry ant.  I first met them while picking berries, and if you stand in their nest they will bite you like crazy.  Very savage with the bites.  So I was not a bit thrilled to see them turn up in my garden and set up shop in the compost pile.  They seriously love the compost piles I build, which is fine during the summer as its piling up but no fun at all when you want to turn it or take it away, because of their liberal biting.  So when I started to see a few in the greenhouse I was truly alarmed.
However, it turned out that the 'blueberry ant' is a predator on those aphid farming picnic ants, which are nearly twice their size.  You see them scuttling off with the bigger black ant carried over their head. I suppose they must bite them and get the better of them.  The blueberry ants have never bitten me in the greenhouse or in the house.  We have fallen into a sort of ecosystem balance, where I build them the compost place to nest all summer, and they visit my house to clean up the invading picnic ants.

Upshot of that long ramble, I think it is natural and good for ants to prey on other ants, and sometimes it is needed and beneficial. 

Yeah. I think I introduced ones from PA not native or present to Mississippi.

Which, being from the same country doesn't always mean they're great to have elsewhere.

Checked the area again, the black types have little sprawling trails of their hills around the reds former one. I say former, because I checked the reds hill and it's smaller black ants.

I said large before, probably because they looked that way to me.

Yesterday, I placed a near rotten avocado half next to that little path they're making, seems like there was ant hill looking stuff on it and carrying parts of it away into the hill.

So, that probably narrows down the species if they're small, black and eat anything.

I did step in their hills a few times so far.

Feels like their bites are like sparks off fire or firecrackers. Reds up here are a bit more painful.

Doesn't seem like these ones leave large marks to following day.

But yeah. They're killing ants from another country that are highly invasive. So. That's cool.

I'm pretty sure they're just territorial, reds or one of the two picked a fight.


I'll keep an eye on them.

I went out and planted Cucumis seeds earlier.

I believe the reason they aren't typically planted for a few weeks is because of a mix of different reasons.

Canna lilies and elephant ears have been up a few weeks now without issue. Some native salvias and other flowers have been flowering for awhile now too.


Seeds will still germinate and whatever. I believe the date is meant for plant starts anyways. Seed death or rot isn't a factor, double checked some stuff - tomato seeds germinated in soil as did some other stuff. Temps are good.

Frosts are done according to the charts.


Planted Cucumis hystrix, C. saclexixii, C. filiformous, C. melo - 2 different sourced Borneo accessions, 1 Japanese  and Chinese accessions (Unsure of which accessions, they can vary quite a bit even in countries / continents).

Sambar Cucumber, Apple Melon (Very small seeds - close to tomato seed sized), Oriental pickling melon, Armenian Cucumber, Hithadhoo Maldives Melon (Only one seed was left in my packet), Xylangouro Melon, South African Landrace Kiwano, Zimbabwean Landrace Kiwano, Round Jelly Melon Kiwano, Assam Cucumber - brown skin ripening type from the High Himalayas - supposed to smell like a melon when ripening, Sikkim Cucumber.


I planted the seeds around soil mounds I've been around / near the raised herb beds.

The main Cucumber and melon crops, will still be planted somewhat close by. Possibly in the neighbors garden - we may share this year.

There would still be C. Melo wild hybrids to watch out for when saving seeds due to that.

I might plant some Lofthouse Landrace and Bhutan Meets Greg landrace cucumbers near the herb bed groups. Those will probably go in the main plantings though.

I figure, closely planted stuff have a higher chance of crossing with each other, so keeping then away still means I'd still have hybrids but, yeah.

I'm probably doing a lot of intentional crosses, so that shouldn't be too big of an issue.

Interspecific hybrids would be uncommon or a rarity.

It's still a bit early for me to start my Cucumis seeds.

When I do, my plan is to use my last saved packet of Borneo (just the packet, the one Borneo from last year that lasted long enough to make mature seeds I didn't really like the taste of. I'm hoping there are some in the packet more like the second one I got I had to harvest immature.) Some more Russian Netted (sort of like you Assam, but spherical) and some West Indian Gherkins (not my choice, but mom got me some seeds for the holiday and has not stopped bugging me about growing them.)

One thing I WISH I still had was some sort of odd Chinese melon I got some years ago from the Richter's Seed Zoo (which means it was a Simcox find.) Based on the picture, it was an orange fleshed melon (which while perfectly normal for a central Asian Muskmelon type, is a but odd for a Chinese origin Asian melon. long shape, and very small seeds for its size. 

Yeah, I'm growing the oddities over in the same space, probably gonna try some intentional crosses too.

Both of my Borneo types could be the exact same things.

Might let three types of each accession (Except if they're different species) grow in the spot, immediately move others and expand the area I'm growing them.

I believe I got the Assam cucumber from The Roughwood Seed Collection.

The Xylangouro is from the Greek Island, Chios.

Hithadhoo Maldives Melon is from Hithadhoo, an island in the Maldives. One seed left means I probably won't have a pure strain of this, ever.

The Japanese agretis type is from Japan.


So, there's a lot of island types.


The Sikkim, Assam and some others are from various interesting places.

The Armenian cucumber is a pretty cool C. melo. Seems to have disease resistances that a lot of members of the species doesn't have.

Planted some molokhia cells, Everglades 41 Kenaf, some Marshmallow, 'Kagawa' Sunset Hibiscus, Korean Silkflower, Red Roselle cells as well.

Pretty much all in a bed for greens.

Didn't do simple rows, one plant would be red roselle, the next in the row was 'Kagawa' Sunset Hibiscus - then more Red Roselle.

Across from the Red roselle cells I planted, I did Everglades 41 Kenaf - Korean Silkflower went across from the Kagawa Sunset Hibiscus.

Planted the Marshmallow and Molokhia cells in between the rows a bit.

Only did 2 total rows or so. I don't regularly use Roselle flowers - back home they were a very rare thing to find growing anywhere. The greens will be nice. If I like all the stuff, they'll get more of them grown in the future.

Still a bit upset that I didn't order'Whitten' Kenaf from EFN. I forgot that I even had the Everglades 41 Kenaf that I ordered from them awhile back.

Whitten Kenaf was made in Mississippi. So, even though it's maintained in Georgia it would've probably been very adapted to my state. Georgia isn't much different anyway.


I'm not using the Kenaf for Fibre. Not at the moment at least. It's related to the Silkflowers and Red Roselle - same genus. Everything on the plant is also edible like them.

Fibres usually mean it gets cooked before any form of eating.


I'll plant some of the odd Okras just outside the bed. Basically planting those things together, because why not.

I'd very much like to try interspecific crosses at some point.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-03-03, 10:09:10 AMYeah, I'm growing the oddities over in the same space, probably gonna try some intentional crosses too.

Both of my Borneo types could be the exact same things.

Might let three types of each accession (Except if they're different species) grow in the spot, immediately move others and expand the area I'm growing them.

I believe I got the Assam cucumber from The Roughwood Seed Collection.

The Xylangouro is from the Greek Island, Chios.

Hithadhoo Maldives Melon is from Hithadhoo, an island in the Maldives. One seed left means I probably won't have a pure strain of this, ever.

The Japanese agretis type is from Japan.


So, there's a lot of island types.


The Sikkim, Assam and some others are from various interesting places.

The Armenian cucumber is a pretty cool C. melo. Seems to have disease resistances that a lot of members of the species doesn't have.

My borneo is just the opposite, in that one packet are (theoretically) multiple strains that are very different. The first one I got (the one that did mature, but I didn't like the taste.) was mottled and smooth, the second one (liked the taste, but was too immature to take seed from) was solid pale green and fuzzy.

And I am more or less HOPING the Russian netted I get are in fact what they say. I currently only know one place to get it (there seemed to be more, but it looks like a lot of places are confusing Russian netted with Brown Russian, which is a longer kiva type cucumber (that's what the brown kinds like Assam are called.)I know what I got last year wasn't brown Russian (it was green when immature, ad Brown Russian is white) but none of them stayed long enough to brown and crackle up, so it could be ANY roundish dark green cucumber ( even though, off the top of my head, Richmond Apple is the ONLY dark green round cucumber I know.) 

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-03-03, 11:04:02 AMStill a bit upset that I didn't order'Whitten' Kenaf from EFN. I forgot that I even had the Everglades 41 Kenaf that I ordered from them awhile back.

Whitten Kenaf was made in Mississippi. So, even though it's maintained in Georgia it would've probably been very adapted to my state. Georgia isn't much different anyway.


I'm not using the Kenaf for Fibre. Not at the moment at least. It's related to the Silkflowers and Red Roselle - same genus. Everything on the plant is also edible like them.

Fibres usually mean it gets cooked before any form of eating.

Interesting I didn't know kenaf was edible. I got whitten kenaf from EFN to try this year. Not sure how well it'll do here in Ohio but thought it was worth trying. I'm growing flax as well. Both for fiber. Hopefully... we'll see about the processing later... lol.

Kenaf almost got me arrested. My dad (who is a Type 1 diabetic) had a lob blood sugar reaction so bad we had to call the EMT. In our area, most of the EMT workers are also policemen, and so the first people to arrived were some uniformed cops. This was also the time I had a Kenaf plant in a pot in my living room (since it was the end of the season and it had just started to bud). One of the cops saw it and, well, there's a reason Kenaf's species name is cannabinus. Those few flower buds probably saved me a night in jail (this was far enough back that hemp was definitely NOT legal in my state.)

Surpsingly, managed to get actual seed indoors (two plants, and a makeup brush) Wish I could have done the same with the Sunn Hemp (Crotalaria juncea), I thought those were really pretty flowers (alas, they had those bee-trip legume flowers, and I was never any good at tripping those manually.)

Not doing Kenaf this year, but AM doing white/green roselle (I'm curious what the drink tastes like when there AREN'T any anthocyanins in it.)   

I'm fairly sure Whitten Kenaf is bred to have rounded leaves, rather than cannabis looking ones.

Mainly due to past raids due to law enforcement.

At least, EFN says this. Dunno if it's true - haven't grown the variety.


I tossed out some Lemon Balm seeds around the marshmallow, Hibiscus plantings.

Purchased Garlic and regular chives from botanical interests seeds along with Diplotaxis tenuifolia, Lemon Balm.

Got Cardinal vine or whatever it's called, moonflower and Clark's blue morning glory - these are all similar flowers in the same genus, but different species. So, they probably won't cross.


I'll probably use Lemon Balm and Roselle calyxs in tea together. I've read somewhere online that they do well together.

I've also read it's possible to make other drinks with those two things, maybe a few other ingredients.

Roselle and things transplanted well.


I've also noticed Solanum ferox and some Kitley germinating.

Last time I grew them, I had no luck. I think the kitley has a 30%ish germination rate. Got them from The Experimental Farm Network at some point.

BTW, is it normal for members of the Hibiscus and related genera to be capable of self pollination. I ask because, for about five years (since I didn't know what it was) I was growing a Manihot plant in my house (yes, if they don't freeze, they WILL live that long.) and it kept churning out seeds regularly a LOT of them, over its lifespan, I filled a pill bottle up to the top with them), despite, as I said, being indoors where there were not bugs to move pollen (and no other ones for it to get pollen from) As I remember having to FORCE the seed on the Kenaf by moving pollen from one plant to the other with a makeup brush (and, even then, not getting that many due to it being pretty rare for both plants to have open flowers at the same time.) it seemed unusual to me that I didn't have to do that that time.   

Manihot esculenta and Manihot grahamii are self pollinating I think. But, that's considered inbreeding.

They prefer to outcross I think.

Added Sunviva to my tomato list as well as Rinon Rippled, Isfahan, and Moyamensing.  I really need to stop buying seeds.

Started Korean Chilis, Poblanos, and Serranos saved from last year and some seeds a friend gave me, and Fish peppers. 

I have squash seeds I saved from last year plus some Ayote seeds, and Arabat.  I found a pack of Sucrine du Berry in my collection but not sure if I want to plant it because I will have to take space from something else at this point.

For okra planting what I saved from last year and adding Puerto Rico Everblush, Catawba Freeman, Ken's, Burgundy, Zambia Landrace I, Heavy Hitter, Never Again, and Bamyeh Falastinia.  May try some more Ultracross again.

For sorghum I have Mennonite and Nerum Boer. 

Also have several packs of peas I'm going to mix and plant and an assortment of carrot seeds I got from Nikitovka with my small batches permit.

Not sure where I'm going to find room for everything because my garden's not that big.  Also, the only ones I have started are the peppers.  I don't start tomatoes until more toward the end of March and I may possibly have to go out of state for work so won't be able to babysit the starts.

Planted Valentines Cypress Vine, Clark's Heavenly Blue Morning Glory, Moonflower - two different Melothria species and some other things around a bunch of sticks and other sorta trellis type things.

Also planted Psophocarpus tetragonolobus, Lavender butterfly pea.

Planted another edible legume with blue flowers - Lathyrus sativus, but I planted it near the same area I planted old sword bean and some other things.


There's another legume I know of with some edible qualities and self seeds, well enough. I think it's from Europe or somewhere. Flowers remind me of a ladybug coloration. Red flowers, some black spots.

I think I tried growing it once. If I knew the name, I could probably buy seed or look into it again.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-03-13, 04:57:49 PMPlanted Valentines Cypress Vine, Clark's Heavenly Blue Morning Glory, Moonflower - two different Melothria species and some other things around a bunch of sticks and other sorta trellis type things.

Also planted Psophocarpus tetragonolobus, Lavender butterfly pea.

Planted another edible legume with blue flowers - Lathyrus sativus, but I planted it near the same area I planted old sword bean and some other things.


There's another legume I know of with some edible qualities and self seeds, well enough. I think it's from Europe or somewhere. Flowers remind me of a ladybug coloration. Red flowers, some black spots.

I think I tried growing it once. If I knew the name, I could probably buy seed or look into it again.

That red flowered one is probably asparagus pea, Lotus tetragonalobis. At least, that's the only common-ish garden legume I know with red and possibly black flowers (there are some black flowered fava beans, but I'm pretty sure that isn't what you mean.) And it, like the wingbeans, originates in Asia (though it IS pretty common in Europe now.)

On my side, I'm putting together a sort of cocktail of small legumes, of both edible and non edible quality. I have a dozen or so vetches, some yellow vetch (Lathyrus alphaca) that descended from the stuff I pulled out from all those lentil bags ten or so years ago.

I MIGHT grow Grass Pea (your L. Sativus) but that sort of depends on whether I have the courage to go back into NYC before the planting season for that comes for the area around here (Or, more accurately, when I can work out some answer to the problem of not wanting or being able to take my face mask off for the whole time I'm there with the difficulty of breathing through it long term and the danger of not being able to eat or drink ANYTHING (because of the mask thing) for 6-8 hours straight while doing heavy exertion (not a great idea for a diabetic with hyperhidrosis.) I don't get good results with any of the mail order strains, so growing them requires getting back to the spice shop and looking around for likely candidates.

I've got a few small legumes on their way to add to this, some sort of Andean Indigo, an unidentified pink flowered Macropitilium, and an unidentified lupine, both also from the South American regions.

On the way from Africa, I have a few more colors of African Yam beans on their way, and I already have a few Bambarra and Kersting's groundnut types here to play with. Of course, there are also the Sword beans I got from Ghana and the lablabs, but the sword beans I'll probably hold until next season, I only have so much room to work with. Plus, the lablabs are marginally more important, since there there is a clear purpose (trying to find any besides Ruby moon and the brown seeded bush type I got from a fellow seed saver that are sufficiently day-length neutral to actually FLOWER here.)

I HAVE wing bean seeds (quite a lot of them, in fact) but again, day length is not my friend for those here (actually, I'm kind of surprised you can get them to grow, I've had people as far down as Florida on my other group complaining they can't get reliable flowering for those.)

And, of course, I am allotting some space to off color rice beans, mung beans, azuki beans and mothe beans (though I may skip the azukis this year, they really don't need a regeneration at this time.) Oh, and I guess the horse gram (Dolichos biflorus) will need to be taken care of as well (and the limas, and the common beans).   

The winged beans that I planted are "Urizun", this variety isn't day length sensitive or at least not to the same degree as other varieties.

There's some zone 6 growers that get pods.

I'm unsure if this variety is a perennial or not. Think I've read some are, some aren't. Don't believe they'll give me a ton of pods. But, they are interesting.


I did toss some Macrotyloma uniflorum seeds out into a spot around the Azure Blue peas. I think those are called "horse gram". Super small seeds. Bought them years ago.

The one sword bean I planted had white seeds I think.

The other has brown seeds and is called a "Beach Bean" - believe they are edible when young in same quantities. Same genus, wanted to try crossing them at some point.

I believe Richters seed zoo has Purple-Black Sword Bean from Ghana, and Togo Sword Bean from, Togo.

Both are 6 seeds in a packet for $8.75

I'm not playing around with sword beans at the moment too much. More or less planted old packets.

Siberian Pea Shrub seems neat too.


And, thanks for helping me find the name of the one legume. From what I can tell, I could probably get these sorts of species to naturalize or self seed in some small areas. I've heard that species isn't very aggressive.

Granted, the seeds and pods are small. I think the flowers are small too.

I don't mind. Would be more of letting an interesting possible famine food spread.

Siberian pea shrubs can become overly aggressive. So, those are also cool - but troublesome. Probably more efficient in terms of food usages.

If something is going to become naturalized in any way, I'd prefer for it to be a "pops up here and there in small amounts, and natives usually outcompete it" category plant.

Macrotyloma uniflorum is the same thing as Dolichos biflourus, they moved it about thirty or forty years ago (same as I refer to my rice beans still as Vinga umbelliferata, but a lot of places now list them as Phaseolus calcaractus.) This, is a bit ironic, as the Kersting's Groundnuts I am trying are now I think the ONLY species left in Macrotyloma (Macrotyloma geocarpum.)

Part of the problem is that just being day length neutral isn't good enough for me in wing beans. They have to be day length neutral AND have cream colored seeds (mature seeds of wing bean can be used as a soybean substitute, and the pale cream seeds are the most palatable.)

My horse gram all came out of bags from the Indian grocery store. I basically put together two lines, one with jet black seeds (typical color is sort of tan) and one with dead white ones (really not common, but they do exist.)

I DEFINTITELY do not need any more sword beans, not only did my Ghana person supply me with plenty, but most of them are MUCH prettier than just flat white, red or anything like that. Some are white with big purple streaks, or a sort of purple netting on them.

And I doubt either of those are still in the seed zoo. I pop in there from time to time still, and they barely have ANYTHING there now (Joe probably hasn't sent them anything in over a decade now, and since they don't regenerate the things in the zoo themselves, it empties faster than it fills.) I don't think they even still have any of the Volta white Maize I was playing around with (since it is from Ghana, I checked with my supplier there to see if he knew of any source, but apparently, while maize is still the #1 grain crop there, that old kind has been almost totally replaced by more modern strains (though it does still linger in memory, I've seen a photo of a Ghanian customized coffin done as an ear of it (you can tell since it was the same as the packet, nearly all white, but with the odd yellow and purple kernel.)

The Lima beans should be interesting, I got those from Liberia (gave away the stuff there was lots of, but kept the rarer patterns for myself).   

I believe the sword beans are in stock. But yeah, when it first came around he had tons of stuff on there.

I think people other than him may list things there too.


I check like at the beginning and end of the year. Sword beans are both still in stock. The capers are like a zone colder than the usual type in terms of hardiness. Perennial down to like zone 7ish.


I know Raindanceseeds has some limas:

https://raindanceseeds.squarespace.com/rare-vegetables/pauls-jungle-lima-bean-phaseolus-lunatus

https://raindanceseeds.squarespace.com/rare-vegetables/peruvian-cow-print-lima-bean-phaseolis-lunatus

https://raindanceseeds.squarespace.com/rare-vegetables/lima-bean-ping-zebra-phaseolis-lunatus

https://raindanceseeds.squarespace.com/rare-vegetables/lima-bean-deep-maroon-and-white-phaseolis-lunatus


Dunno if you have those varieties or not. I quite like that guy's site. Full of a lot of wild species and whatnot.

This is the site I mean by Roughwood Seed Collection:

They seem to sell things that don't return (some do come back).

https://www.seedways.org/

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/assam-cucumber


They are currently selling Tagetes lucida, and Tagetes minuta. Plus, some marigold varieties that were used for food dyes or whatever else.

There's also:

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/spiked-thyme-mediterranean-thyme

This species is also called Za'atar. There's an Oregano species also called Za'atar, so if someone wants the herbs used to make a spice - they have this thyme. Plus it's roughly 4 dollars cheaper than seeds for it elsewhere.


This species is neat:

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/chufa-ground-almond-tiger-nut

(Edible Agricultural Pest)

An interesting Rutabaga:

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/trentino-rutabaga-cavolo-navone


Rampion Bellflower:

Edible. Tastes decent enough. Flowers look nice. Not an overly common species to find seed for.

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/rampion-or-rapunzel


I want to try growing these, despite the lack of an image:

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/cabeza-de-lagarto-crocodile-chili

Rare chili:

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/chile-congo-of-nicaragua


Orach:

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/roughwood-aurora-orach

Edible seeds, leaves etc:

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/cypriot-bliton-or-vlita-amaranthus-lividus

Edible thistles:

This one is, very. Pointy. And probably a possible pest.

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/golden-thistle

Milk Thistle is easier to harvest probably. I've grown it before. The leaves are wide, the pointed bits are easy to avoid, they look ornamental.

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/milk-thistle

A cultivated cress.

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/persian-broadleaf-cress


Bambaras:

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/bambaras-village-mix





Some corns:

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/gasp%C3%A9-flint-corn

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/delaware-blue-sweet-corn

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/brindle-corn

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/pawnee-eagle-flour-corn

https://www.seedways.org/product-page/pawnee-red-skidi-popcorn

Thank you.
Oh BTW, the Ghanian guy I mentioned is this one (https://www.jibrilenterprise.com/ (https://www.jibrilenterprise.com/)
He's been pretty good to me. And though it makes them expensive the fact he DOES get phytos means you actually GET your seeds (actually, when you want something, it's usually better to contact him and tell him what you want rather than just hit the buy buttons, he can put more than one thing on each Phyto and save you a lot of money that way.)

I DEFINITELY don't need any more kinds of thyme. Between the Spanish Thyme (a.k.a. Cuban oregano), the conehead thyme (a.k.a. biblical hyssop) and the Syrian oregano, I have all the thyme like herbs I can handle (in fact, I'm probably skipping the conehead in next year's buys since it is SO STRONG I can't actually use it for anything much (the flowerheads have so much thymol they are actually PAINFUL to consume.)Plus, I found a source for Chinese Mint to try, and I'll need the space. Plus space to try Hooker's Chives again (different species).

Bambarras I also have a ton of. Some other company had a mix with a LOT more colors than the Roughwood one, and the only color I couldn't find from them (jet black) I managed to get from Trade Winds Fruit (I had to buy out the whole seed supply TWICE to get just eight black ones, but at least I HAVE them now.)

No, I don't have those Limas, but with six to eight different unknown types from Liberia to grow out, I'm pretty lima full at the moment. Anyway, those are all large ones, so probably wouldn't mature for me. (I've found that smaller seeded limas (butterbeans) tend to mature a BIT earlier than the big ones, so that is what I focused on. Only ONE of the limas I am planting is large seeded (and I only have three seeds of that.)

I do my own thing with corn. I usually only plant interesting ones I select myself in the fall from the various farmers market stands (with my space, I focus on ornamental purposes, not food ones.)   

EFN had an update. Nanticoke squash was included! I went ahead and got 2 packets. And a packet of moringa just because.
Last year I started moringa and never got it outside. This time I'll be planting it right in the ground.

Well.

I suppose, that I can make another order.

Three corns have the nitrogen fixing roots on them. And they're bred to grow well in the United States.

Another corn, has a trait that someone selected for. It's one found in teosinte - some Coen cultivars might have it. Anyways. It more or less prevents pollination from corn that doesn't have the trait.

No GMO pollen! Or, in my case "I wonder if I could use this to cross with teosinte that require a lot of effort to hybridize with".


I also kinda want to get some "Perennial Celery" seed again.

I also have some 'Searsport' Sea Plantain coming up. Have some "Perennial Chard / Beet" mix planted near those too that appear to also be germinating.

They have yet another Sea Plantain accession! (This one doesn't say limited quantities, so that's good).

Plus, a different species of "Okra" from the common type, also seems like it probably has nice flowers.

Also mentioned somewhere on here that I wanted to buy their one Kenaf variety as its probably better than the one I have.

Kentucky Coffee tree seeds from the largest tree in Pennsylvania. That also seems interesting.


Guess I might indulge a bit.

Might only buy one of the aerial rooted varieties.

I have blue sticky Japanese corn. I'd probably cross those two together.

I also wanna see what blue and orange corns give me. I'm unsure if antho genes and whatnot are fully connected to the same traits as say the orange traits in Joseph's corn that he bred.

Bloody Butcher is a cool corn, I like its branching traits.

But, I'm fairly sure someone here mentioned they were wanting to breed an early multi branched variety that also has resistances to whatever or has other nice traits, like being a sweet corn.

I'm fairly sure someone said there's some corns that fit some of those categories other than bloody butcher, so using them might be a better idea.

If I can find the corn names and thread, that would be nice.

I ordered some stuff from The Experimental Farm Network. Went "Oh, the things I want are going out of stock." and made an order.


Gonna list some things I ordered along with other mentionaable things.


'Monarch' Celeriac

(Apium graveolens var. rapaceum)


Chinese Pink' Celery

(Apium graveolens)


Sweet Cicely

(Myrrhis odorata)


Rouge Demi-courte de Guérande' (Red Half-Short of Guérande)

(Daucus sativus)


Polish Root Parsley

(Petroselinum crispum var. tuberosum)


'Harris Model' Parsnip

(Pastinaca sativa)


Skirret

(Sium sisarum)


Bigseed Biscuitroot

(Lomatium macrocarpum)


Seombadi (Perennial Korean Celery)

(Dystaenia takesimana)


Polish Turnip-Rooted Chervil

(Chaerophyllum bulbosum)


Cow Parsnip (California Ecotype)

(Heracleum sphondylium subsp. montanum)

(Probably actually Heracleum maximum)


Already have:

Japanese Honewort

(Cryptotaenia japonica)


Canadian Honewort

(Cryptotaenia canadensis)


Parsley

(Petroselinum crispum)


Cilantro

(Coriandrum sativum)


Cumin

(Cuminum cyminum)




Would also like Sea Celery (Apium prostratum), Scots Lovage (Ligusticum scoticum), Lovage (Levisticum officinale), Dara Queen Anne's Lace (Probably D. carota subsp. carota as that subspecies is noted to have purple / reddish flowers, the subspecies is also noted to have bitter roots, not favorable but yeah), and Chervil (Anthriscus cerefolium) as well as American Wild Carrot (Daucus pusillus).


These are all in the same family. Had some of these species before I moved and whatnot.

I more or less wanna breed a carrot with Purple Flowers using Dara Queen. If I'm correct about the subspecies, it's from a completely different region than cultivated carrots (which multiple subspecies were cultivated in different areas). This isn't just "Neat, purple flowers". It's also, me wanting to explore any genetics it may have. Most people who breed with Queen Anne's Lace probably wouldn't touch a subspecies with bitter roots for hybridization projects.

I personally would keep the plants contained as well. So they don't spread.

Some of these would just make nice perennials for bees, famine food or Perennial vegetables.

I also ordered:


Corns that may have root nodules / nitrogen fixation:

'Gigante Hominy' Self-Feeding Corn Grex


'Speckled Parching' Self-Feeding Corn Grex


'Independence' Corn

Gametophytic incompatibility / Ga1s gene mixed into this landrace / population. Popcorns typically have the gene, as does teosinte.

I don't think it creates a complete incompatibility with other corn, but it does reduce crossing. I found it to be interesting.



Dobranoc Corn


'Bagalhali' Tetra Okra (Manihot Hibiscus) - Third type of this species that they've listed. So, now I have a variety from India, Korea and Japan.

Neat.


Mao Er Shi Shu (This is usually called Blue Sausage Fruit)


Cucumis anguria

Ethiopian Burr Gherkin (USDA Accession that they got, a friend grew for them)

West Indian Gherkin

(Speaking of Cucumis, C. hysterix is germinating)


Garlic Pennycress

Purple Orach (Minnesota Naturalized)

Turkish Rocket

Woolly Bean Breeders Mix

Homesteader's Kaleidoscopic Perennial' Kale Grex

PA State Champion Kentucky Coffee Tree


Red Plantain

Hermit Island Sea Plantain.


I could buy some other stuff I want. But. Yeah.

It will be interesting to see how long the "bird's egg" seed pattern trait stays in further selections from those Andean derived corns (since it is quite common in Andean populations, but quite unusual in Northern ones.) 

Since you said "cumin", this requires the sort of twisty thinking I do (as in, seeing seed growing potential in seed that is not being sold for garden use.) But one of my spice companies does sell seed for wild cumin from Afghanistan, and if you are planning to do any cumin breeding, that might be of use (it's a different genus than domestic cumin, so it would be a wide cross, but it might work.) As far as I know, they just sun dry it, so it should still be viable.

https://www.burlapandbarrel.com/collections/all/products/wild-mountain-cumin (https://www.burlapandbarrel.com/collections/all/products/wild-mountain-cumin)

P.S. If you DO decide to try this, pick over what you plant before you sow. As it is wild collected, this is the one spice they sell that is NOT 100% pure (more like 99.99%), and, while not likely, you COULD introduce some Middle Eastern weeds into your garden if you are not careful.

Thanks!

Double checked and yep, Cuminum cyminum and Elwendia persica.

Seems like they mentioned in there that there's no need to ground the spice, as it's already small.

Further research says it loses flavor if grounded.


I did actually want the "Ultracross" Corn and the Maize Morado one.

Ultracross still has the nitrogen fixing lines in it, as well as everything from the other races / lines they're offering + more.

The Maize Morado one has the nitrogen fixation root nodules plus it's mixed with Maize Morado and seemingly somewhat stable.

I'm pretty sure some people on here were breeding with Maize Morado or antho corns, so one look at that could've been like eye candy to people. Root nodules already mixed in with Maize Morado.


I'm also interested in the "birds egg" patterns as well as the eagle ones or whatever others. They look quite nice.

If you are VERY lucky, Andean purple corn can also have a rare trait where the endosperm ITSELF is purple (at least, I was told so by one of my college teachers and, having seen it, believe this to be true. Other's have dismissed it as simply purple sap getting into everything and staining it.) Again, I DOES show up in northern corns occasionally as well (I had a popcorn kernel pop lavender) but it much scarcer here.

I actually have an ear of a sort of Andean Morado mix, but as it is PURE Andean, it's probably too day length sensitive to be of any real use here (in any case, it's the last intact ear I have from my "NYC Miracle Hoard", and I'd kind of prefer to keep it in one piece for reference.)

One thing you may want to keep in mind is there is also a tradeoff for those extra big kernels, you get a lot fewer of them per ear. About 200 kernels is roughly around the average for a full sized northern ear, for a lot of Andean ones, it's not even half that. Fewer rows as well, you get a LOT of 8 row ears (I even had one once from the hoard that was so strictly rowed that the ear, for all intents and purposes, was square in cross section.)

Quote from: Jeremy Weiss on 2023-03-16, 10:22:46 AMOne thing you may want to keep in mind is there is also a tradeoff for those extra big kernels, you get a lot fewer of them per ear. About 200 kernels is roughly around the average for a full sized northern ear, for a lot of Andean ones, it's not even half that. Fewer rows as well, you get a LOT of 8 row ears (I even had one once from the hoard that was so strictly rowed that the ear, for all intents and purposes, was square in cross section.)

This made me think of how teosinte is shaped. Could this shape/rows be a way of seeing more teosinte type traits than modern traits?

Quote from: Kadence Luneman on 2023-03-17, 09:08:23 AMThis made me think of how teosinte is shaped. Could this shape/rows be a way of seeing more teosinte type traits than modern traits?

Sort of. I was shown some "in between" ears of primitive corn back in college (or, more accurately, cobs, as the ears still had some shattering factors and had lost all of their kernels) and they did indeed only have 8 rows.

I think it may have a lot more to do with WHAT the corn was used for than any specific selection (since the primary concern would be maximum yield per acreage or per plant, not per ear. A lot of those "mountain" type Andean corn (basically, the pinecone shaped multicolored ears are mountain type, Cuzco Gigante is a bit more lowland.)corns end up being used for cancha, which are basically just toasted corn kernels. For that you probably want a very big, very soft kernel (most of those mountain type corns have kernels so soft you can crush them in your fingers with no trouble, and so light that, if you don't put a cover on them when you plant them, if there is a heavy rain, they can literally float away!.

Up here, corn was most commonly ground before use for all types. You might make some parched corn (what we now call corn nuts) by tossing some hominy in a skillet with some fat, but that was more of a trail/snack food, not your day to day carb. So smaller kernels, were OK, and, to make of the yield difference that would cause, you'd try and select for corns that had more rows, and hence, more kernels per ear.) It's sort of the same reason why (apart from my freaky finds) you usually aren't going to find miniature corn that isn't popcorn; If you are going to get more or less the same number of ears from a plant, but the total edible mass is so much less (not just in terms of raw kernel mass, but in terms of how much of that mass is inedible pericarp.) why grow it? Popcorn can get away with it because it increases in volume so much when you pop it, so it's handleable. And even there, there are limits (I HAVE popped Chire's Baby before, the popped kernels are the size of the bits on the BOTTOM of normal popped kernels. I think they just mention the popability of it just to stop people asking what they hell they do if they wait too long to harvest  and it gets too tough to use as baby corn.)     

Believe I found some Urtica chamaedryoides and some some spearmint and some perilla in the same wooded patch.

I think there's some other interesting things too.

Always fun to investigate this sorta stuff.

Considering I pinched a small piece of the Urtica to root in a pot, and my fingers sting a bit - I'd say it's a nettle at the very least.

Very little stinging, lasted less than an hour. Took a few minutes to kick in. And, I was holding the stem and things on my finger. Hardly anything.

Took some mint pinches and Urtica back over toward the house.


Plus, like 4 oak tree seedlings that came up from PA acorns were shredded / eaten. I'm thinking planting some "dead" leeks, Urtica and some mint in their pots will deter those critters.

Extreme measures, I know. Maybe I'll even place peppers on top of the soil!


I'd say the Urtica was slightly numbing at best.

I'm beginning to have thoughts of "I want to try out woodland races of medicinal herbs - mint and whatever else".

I actually went back over to get more sprigs of the Urtica and yeah. It's not anything bad. I can't say it's causing me pain or discomfort.

Well, the old folk rhyme basically SAYS that, if you grab a nettle hard enough, it can't hurt you (you'll break off the silica needles before they have a chance to enter your skin and inject the irritant).

"Tender-handed stroke a nettle, And it stings you, for your pains: Grasp it like a man of mettle, And it soft as silk remains."

Wonder if any bold (or stupid) Australian has ever tried to see if that trick works on a Gympie-Gympie (basically, imagine a tree sized nettled with a sting so powerful you'll be in agony for MONTHS, if not YEARS from it. Animals (who don't have our access to painkillers often DIE from the pain.)

Covered a lot of seedlings, herb bed and things with a tarp.

Believe it was around 25F earlier.


Tarp was big enough for both herb beds and the wild / odd cucumis types.

Some uncovered basil in another bed kinda. Became moosh.

Anyways, this is camp tarp. Costed like 21 - ish dollars. For some reason, almost no tarp made the move. Went underneath this a bit, to check on things, though it's nicer out now.

Cucumis hysterix, "Sambar Cucumber" (From an etsy seller, they also sold one of the Borneo Agretis), two "Wild Borneo Cucumbers", both Jelly Melon landraces, Zimbabwe and somewhere else - and a "small jelly rund", a few cucumbers are still alive / germinated. All of them survived in total. Yay.


I planted them by the herb bed (basically in the middle or spewing out of the middle), for a reason.

I also have / had branches and sticks over the sides of the tarp.


I kinda figured there was a chance we'd get a few random frosts still, here and there.

Believe that the last frost date is marked as the 24th.

But, I was aware that any frosts after another date were very scant / few after a certain date.


So, a small planting area that can be covered if need be.


Some of these will germinate as the weather warms up along with the soil.


Most of these did fine, no issues or death with 35ish nights.

It's usually when I see "35 / 25F" in the day, that I go "Ah, that's an issue".


Pretty easy to tell what the following night or day will be when the night temperatures the day before are lower than usual too.

I'll probably keep the tarp over this stuff for a few more days. Believe it's supposed to be a high of 70, lows are a minimum of 50F - usually 60 - 70F.

I think it got lower than expected, still a good idea to watch the weather.

Copying this from my Instagram, mostly about Okra:

When I find a grex or most any things, I check the seeds and whatever to see what's all there.

I've found a red Borlotto Di Nano (can't remember the rest) bean before.

Sometimes you can find corn seed with off types, or mutants - etc.

These are seeds I seperated from the rest of the "Ultracross Okra" from The Experimental Farm Network.

I have a few Okra varieties, but I haven't grown Okra before. I checked their seeds and whatnot before.

All of the other seeds are either black or another common color. The other varieties I have, are about the same.

There's some bicolored seeds, half colored, striped or tan seeds etc. This was all of those types I could find in one packet.

The grex has a low percentage of possible interspecific hybrids to my understanding - I'm unsure if these would be interspecific hybrids, different species, varieties that happen to have different seed coatings that aren't largely represented in the population or if some are dead / duds.

But, I planted them together.

Mostly, in a somewhat closely planted ornamental sort of space. If there's interspecific hybrids, I'd prefer to up their numbers in this population or make them all cross before tossing them back in.

Or, they happened to cross with a variety that accepts pollen more readily or is genetically close to whatever species.

I also planted a few Motherland Okra, Lahague Okra Grex Okra and Kandahar Pendi Landrace in the same area - very small amount - maybe 3 seeds each just to ensure I get one plant of each.

Lahague will probably have multiple plants I keep there too.

Bagalhali Tetra Okra, Korean Silkflower and Kagawa Sunset Hibiscus were also planted in the same block (1 plant each / seedling, others get moved).

Then, there's a trellis for flowers (nothing there yet).

On the other side of that trellis, I planted some Red Roselle, Velvet Queen Sunflower, and "Sunspots Variegated Sunflower".

There's a chance that the Okra will be a perennial, as this is considered zone 8. Same with some of the other mentioned species.

So, I can probably move them by taking a cutting or digging them up at some point if I wanted.


Abelmoschus manihot is the name of the Bagalhali Tetra Okra - those I grouped in this post with it. Abelmoschus esculentus is the common name of Okra. Abelmoschus caillei, is the species that may be included in "Ultracross Okra". Researching this species Wikipedia seems to say an it originated as an allopolyploid hybrid of A. manihot and A. esculentus. Now, it also mentions the cross was recreated in Japan as Abelmoschus glutino-textile. A. caillei wasn't a species until 1988. Before then it was probably grouped as one or the other. It's probably in the same position of Rutabaga, which is a cross between a turnip and cabbage - "ancient hybrid", the cross stabilizes and has trouble crossing back to either parent, but it's stable which warrants an apparent species designation. Newer stable hybrids still get odd designations sometimes for some reason.

It's also worth noting, Lahague is apparently an odd Okra, and someone who's grown 100s of varieties thinks it's possibly another species of Okra from the common one - it grows oddly for an okra. And, in a USDA study of 1448 varieties of Okra, this one was in the top 1.5% of types with the highest seed oil content. 19.6% seed oil content. They also note, while Okra seeds usually grow in rows, this types seeds are scattered in the pods and the pods themselves are oddly shaped. With all of that, it's probably a hybrid or different species than the common one.


'Bagalhali' Tetra Okra (Manihot Hibiscus), was in that same study. A different species than "Common Okra" sure. But, they can cross. This one, was in the top 0.5% of the study - 20.9% percent oil content. With plant genetics, a lot of different things can make up for a lot of seed oil or other characteristics So crossing the two mentioned varieties / species, I could end up with something slightly higher or a lot higher of a seed oil percentage. The study involved a lot of Okra and Okra "cousins", meaning different species. It's very possible that Lahague was collected and it's some old hybrid, or it's a different species than what the collector labeled it as. Lahague also apparently has some, newer characteristics than from when it was first received by people who got it from the USDA. Pink pods etc. So, if it's a different species then it's probably crossed with the Common species and it's more unique characteristics are noted to be slightly reduced, but the large majority of the population should still have the traits.



I can also get away with growing blue podded peas or beans up these. Since I'm mostly wanting these just for seed and whatnot- not full on production, more as ornamentals, I can do the same with climbers. It seems with Sunflowers and Okra - it's about two weeks after planting / or germinating them that you plant out some beans, as they'd otherwise overtake them. I have some Scarlet Runner beans, some beans with red pods/multi-colored flowers - etc. These basically serve the same purpose as Corn in the three sisters method. Nitrogen. In this case though, I'm wanting flowers rather than a ton of production. Probably planting a lot of beans that are prone to outcrossing.

(The Sunflowers will hopefully cross and I'll end up with variegated red Sunflowers at some point, same with the beans and Okra - basically a crossing block that I can use as ornamentals at the moment).

Technically doing an edible flower/ pollinator garden there. I think Scarlet Runner beans are popular in those sorts of gardens in Britain or somewhere. Okra leaves and flowers are edible, same with its relatives in the same genus. Also the same case with Red Roselle.

If I grow any okra this year (I'm really a bit too far North for most types to do well), it's going to be a Ghanian one I got called Dabo, which is sort of unusual itself (the pods are VERY short and VERY wide, so they look a bit more like overgrown velvetleaf pods than okra ones. Plus two seeds I found in the Liberian limas.

I also discovered, to my delight, that the mung beans I got from Ghana are even MORE diverse than I thought. It looks like, short of full black ones, there are a few of pretty much every seed variant I have ever seen, mustard, gold, brown, mottled (though the mottled in there seems to be a much lighter one than the kind I got from India) It looks like there is even an errant bright green urd bean in the bag, which would itself be interesting to grow out (since the standard urd color, as far as I can tell, is somewhere between mottled brown and black.)

Built a frame for the grow lights. Last two days been planting the flats. 4 of 5 done. The last one will be the potato TPS. Saved it for last to get used to seed handling and a groove of planting. Such tinyyy seeds.

Here I am still months away from planting most of what I want to grow outside.  Started peppers on March 5.  I have one nearly ripe tomato from The One! and another one ripening.  Getting flowers on my dwarf MMR plants.  I was hoping to plant seeds from my indoor The One! plants to grow outside but was worried the tomatos wouldn't ripen in time. So I am pretty excited to (hopefully0 have the seeds I wanted.

I'm still deciding on what to plant along with the moschata squash seeds from last year.  I am thinking Guatemalan Ayote right now.

Besides last year's okra grex I have some more varieties to add.  Thinking I will plant 50 positions instead of 32 this year.

Quote from: Jeremy Weiss on 2023-03-21, 08:42:02 PMIf I grow any okra this year (I'm really a bit too far North for most types to do well), it's going to be a Ghanian one I got called Dabo, which is sort of unusual itself (the pods are VERY short and VERY wide, so they look a bit more like overgrown velvetleaf pods than okra ones. Plus two seeds I found in the Liberian limas.

I also discovered, to my delight, that the mung beans I got from Ghana are even MORE diverse than I thought. It looks like, short of full black ones, there are a few of pretty much every seed variant I have ever seen, mustard, gold, brown, mottled (though the mottled in there seems to be a much lighter one than the kind I got from India) It looks like there is even an errant bright green urd bean in the bag, which would itself be interesting to grow out (since the standard urd color, as far as I can tell, is somewhere between mottled brown and black.)

I'm actually considering sending out some Okra seeds if the hybrid things and whatnot all go well.

If the Kagawa Sunset Hibiscus is actually an old strain bred or used in Japan, I'd assume it has nice adaptations and things, similarly to the Kandahar Pendi Landrace which is from a mountainous region.

All three of The Experimental Farm Network's types they sell seem to be slightly different, and one is from a heirloom population in north America, another is from India, another is from Japan, as mentioned.

I think there's perennial types on a lot of Japanese islands, even ones with heavier frosts and conditions that might resemble USDA Zone 6 or 7. So. That could be fun to mess around with.


https://www.etsy.com/listing/1380305912/african-green-okro-abelmoschus?click_key=eb2a74941de4a26a47c9b6cb6329c58c17e45730%3A1380305912&click_sum=66c077cf&ref=shop_home_active_105&frs=1

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1394308165/african-dwarf-okro-abelmoschus?click_key=c8b11130f1a9eab81464f319343557164be12911%3A1394308165&click_sum=2575e4cf&ref=shop_home_active_104&frs=1

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1394295617/dabo-okro-abelmoschus-esculentus-200?click_key=168d78c5a17e13dfc45080d22610b89529431c2f%3A1394295617&click_sum=9f12a110&ref=shop_home_active_111&frs=1

The seller has a lot of nice stuff, as you've mentioned. Plus, he offers Phytosanitary certificates.

I have never grown okra, or eaten it.

My grandchildren bought me vegetable seeds in Malaysia, so now I have a packet of an F1 hybrid okra with a maturity of 60 days. 60 days in the tropics - maybe 6 months up here?

Diane,  here in South Dakota 60 day okra tends to just start producing before the weather cools in September.

Garrett, thank you for posting those links.  Except for EFN most okra seeds I have seen so far have just been US heirlooms.

Some peppers are finally coming up.

Zone 8, so I guess they'll still produce. Ideally, I'd have started them earlier and they'd all have leaves by now.

Looks like, Ninfadora, Dwarf Tepin, CGN 20800, Cardenasii, Carbonero x BBG7 Chocolate, Dragon's Breath type 2, maybe some HR Hellfire Chocolate type 2.

Candy Cane Chocolate Cherry has had seedlings coming up for awhile now - plus one purple off-type. Perfect Sweet Italian Swarm, Cañoncito, Mountain Roaster, Elephant, Murasaki, Mini Olive Rocoto, Aji de Colorado and Sugar Rush Peach have been up for awhile now.

Still waiting on, Doe Hill, Bullnose, Orange Bell, CGN 19198 and Dwarf Aji Charapita.

Tomatoes- including wilds like Solanum chilense, Arcanum and some others are doing OK (most are doing good). Chmielewsky, I've grown indoors before. It's growing fine.

All ground cherries except for Denver Perennial are up. I included queen of malinalco in the ground Cherry grouping, that's the only tomatillo I'm growing from seed this year.

All of my "Eggplants" (Multiple species), Kitley / Cannibal Tomato, Jaltomatas, Tzimbalo Melon Pears / typically sold species and HRseeds are up.

Waiting on Tubocapsicum anomalum, there's a single Dwarf tamarillo, also waiting on Lulo and related species.

Kangaroo apples are beginning to germinate.

Seems like some Gigante Hominy corn is germinating, Pod Corn, Speckled Parching Corn, Independence Corn (Purple and blues I selected from the packet), Independence Corn (Oddly shaped, nice markings rare in the selection I received). Some Dobronac is also coming up.

I planted some Japanese Black Sticky, Dzit-bacal, High Carotene Orange, Lofthouse Astronomy Corn awhile back too. They have three true leaves, suddenly putting on some boosts in growth.

Seems like one China Agretis came up, Borneo Jungle cucumber mixes I have are also both putting on growth. Sambar Cucumbers are quite big now in terms of their cotlydeons.

Cucumis hysterix has more seedlings coming up. Cucumis filiformis is now coming up as well.

I think the frosts harmed the Jelly melons? Hopefully more seeds come up.

Assam and Sikkim were trampled by dogs.

Hopefully Xylangouro and Armenian Cucumbers come up along with Apple Melon, Oriental Melon, Crack Melon, and the West India / Jamaican Gherkins soon too.

It's basically a very small breeding block as I mentioned before. Because of the colder weather and how fast the corns germinating, I'm assuming that they still may flower at the same time.

I actually found the Pod Corn and saw I had like 3 seeds left.

Eventually I wanna get some teosinte as well. Dzit-bacal might be close to a wild or unusual corn I suppose.

May start my Borneo Jungles and West Indian Gherkins in a week or so. would LOVE to start my Russian Netted at the same time, but that relies on the seed arriving by then.

Probably about time to start the cool season legumes (peas, vetches etc.) around now as well.

WANT to start my various trans-Caucasian wild onion and garlic  seeds now, but they still haven't arrived. Beginning to worry that, by the time they do, it will be too hot and I'll have to wait for next year.

Guess I'll order the herbs pretty soon as well.

Suppose I'll sow the sunflowers a bit after I put the cukes in, so I know where to place them for climbing.

I think it's recommended to plant beans two weeks after sowing Sunflower seeds and things if you're planning on using them as a pole. I wanna say cucumbers, squash and things are after sunflowers too. They're also allelopathic to a lot of species if I recall.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-03-26, 08:42:36 AMI think it's recommended to plant beans two weeks after sowing Sunflower seeds and things if you're planning on using them as a pole. I wanna say cucumbers, squash and things are after sunflowers too. They're also allelopathic to a lot of species if I recall.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-03-26, 08:42:36 AMI think it's recommended to plant beans two weeks after sowing Sunflower seeds and things if you're planning on using them as a pole. I wanna say cucumbers, squash and things are after sunflowers too. They're also allelopathic to a lot of species if I recall.

They are, but fortunately, not to cucumbers (they actually interact quite well, according to what I have read online.)

The actual order is less important than my ability to start the two in the cold frame separately, and then plant the seedlings next to each other. I have a lot of trouble when I try to direct seed two things to interact (due to some support seed not coming up or being eaten, or climbers deciding to climb in a totally different direction and not taking no for an answer. The whole Three Sisters concept makes it sound easy, but I have realized that that only worked for the Native Americans so well because they had centuries, if not millennia, to refine their varieties of corn, pole bean and squash so that they could count on each one to germinate at a time complimentary to the other two. It's not like it's "any tall plant, any climber, any scrambler" where you can slot in specifics randomly.   

A lot of things likes sunflowers and the like do actually work well regardless.

Sunflowers grown for food, are usually bred to have firm singular stalks or just very thick ones that are wind resistant.

Farmers appararently let things grow up Okra in some regions.


It's usually a matter of "how fast does this grow or germinate."

Some corn seems to germinate faster than others, that's just a matter of knowing varieties.


The main issue seems to be natives from a lot of people's methods were lost to time due to being colonized or whatever else.


Few years of mapping things out makes things easy enough.

Some bean varieties do get too big for some corn, but most of its still mostly knowing and mapping out what you have.


I'm planning some tests with Melothria species and other things.


Fun tests.

I'm assuming you mean M. scabra, as that is the easiest to work with (Melothria pendula) also may be available, but since it's fruits will make you vomit if you eat them overripe, I personally would not like to play around with it.)

If that works, there is another species called Melothria japonica that supposedly produced somewhat larger (egg sized) white edible fruits. Not sure where to get it (Trade Winds had it, but sold out in 2020) but it may be somewhere.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-03-28, 04:24:05 PMFarmers appararently let things grow up Okra in some regions.

That's interesting.  I don't grow corn but I do grow okra.  I've also wondered about the possibility of using sorghum in a similar fashion.

If Okra works, maybe Kenaf might as well. Well, not for me (my Kenaf grew quite short) but in a good area.

Sunn Hemp too, maybe (though that is pretty thin, and does start to bend over at the top when the flowers show up.)

I still have seed for both of those, maybe I'll try it out. I've got a lot of Roselle seed as well, but, again, I think Roselle would not grow tall enough here.

Zehneria japonica seems to be the actual name for "Melothria japonica". I bought seeds for it years ago and couldn't find any Melothria species outside of the Americas.

Can't find much about the species in terms of edibility.

I've tried getting Melothria pendula to sprout from the perennial cold hardier population that the experimental farm network sells. The big plus with that species, is that you won't throw up from the overripe fruit. And they go from green to somewhat yellow to black. Drastic changes.

While you won't throw up, it's said to be a powerful laxative. So, might be worse than vomiting.

I tried a perennial species I found in Mexico. Looked different than other M. pendula types I've seen. Fruits were tasteless. Just watery. No sour, bitter, sweetness or anything.

If I had small lots of seeds sorta stuff I could've probably tried getting some back with me. The vines seemed to grow up over 12 feet and they're perennials.


Sorghum, you'd need to check what types you're growing. If you wanna use the canes, beans would make harvesting a pain. Sorghum can be perennial in some climates, and it also grows semi fast. Of course beans might be more shade from Sorghum compared to corn due to how large they grow. Beans obviously grow quickly, but field beans or whatever that grow huge vines might be needed here.

If you're growing them for fodder, they'd work well.

Just need to figure out how early or late to plant them with each other. Plus Sorghum grexes or varieties can vary greatly in germ time.

Okra, I know you can grow beans up it - same thing with "ok, this is doable but when do I plant X after X".

There's tree-like Okra that probably work well in these sort of matters.

Okra isn't from the Americas, so there probably aren't a lot of people who have tried growing beans up them.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-03-29, 09:14:21 PMZehneria japonica seems to be the actual name for "Melothria japonica". I bought seeds for it years ago and couldn't find any Melothria species outside of the Americas.

Can't find much about the species in terms of edibility.

I've tried getting Melothria pendula to sprout from the perennial cold hardier population that the experimental farm network sells. The big plus with that species, is that you won't throw up from the overripe fruit. And they go from green to somewhat yellow to black. Drastic changes.

While you won't throw up, it's said to be a powerful laxative. So, might be worse than vomiting.

I tried a perennial species I found in Mexico. Looked different than other M. pendula types I've seen. Fruits were tasteless. Just watery. No sour, bitter, sweetness or anything.

If I had small lots of seeds sorta stuff I could've probably tried getting some back with me. The vines seemed to grow up over 12 feet and they're perennials.

Okra isn't from the Americas, so there probably aren't a lot of people who have tried growing beans up them.

Common beans, maybe not (though there are a large number of common beans all over Africa currently, and have been probably for a few centuries now since Europeans introduced them.) But there are a lot of climbing cowpeas as well, and some of THOSE they might have used okra for. Though there are one or two I can think of that would probably be beyond ANY okra's (or corn's) support capacity (like the unidentified red one someone grew on my other gardening site we nicknamed "Landmaster", where one single seed produced a vine that covered the entire side of the person's house!)

Thanks for the name correction, I called it what Trade Winds (where I got it) called it. Maybe under the real name I can find it again.

You're probably right about no Old world genus members, but there are some odds and ends in Japan, like that pepper (Capsicum rhomboflexum) that make me think it was just possible. 

This will be my second year for my okra landrace.  There are at least two varieties in my grex than can get tall under the right conditions like Cowhorn.  Zambia Landrace II seems to have potential for height also.  Once I have gotten further along with my okra landrace I might try cowpeas with it.  Not sure how much I want to explore it right now though.

Planted inside March 20, 21, and 22. Everything is coming up pretty good. Only thing with no wee sprouts yet is peppers. Even have 5 tiny sprouts from the red tetraploid mix TPS. None from Clancy outcross TPS.

Peppers all germinated and are under lights.  Isfahan, Moyamensing, and Rinon tomatoes all germinated but no Firesteel yet.  Waiting till next weekend to start the others.  Picked first tomato from The One! and put in to ferment last night.  Have some small tomatoes on MMR with more flowers coming.

I think I planted 3 seed per cell, 2 cells planted for Neandermato. One cell had one sprout. The other cell had two sprouts. The two sprouts seemed to dry up and look bit off at the top. The single sprout looks fine.
Hmm.. the spoon and Cache valley currant sprouts look good next to them. And I see on the baker creek fb group lots of people have trouble starting spoon tomatoes, they go tall and scraggly next to nice sturdy heirlooms in the exact same conditions. So this is a bit surprising for the habrochaites. All the other tomato starts are in identical conditions in the same flat tray and one next to it.

Going to look closely in the morning and probably put two more seed in the failed cell. I don't recall anyone saying habro was that picky over regular tomatoes for starting conditions?

Habrochaite is extremly sensitive at the light spectrum.He required light with uvb. A aquarium light is adapted.

Toward a windows is normaly also good but maybe less fast.

Hmm interesting.. I have two lights. One is an LED grow light that has different colored bulbs and is overall purple-y light. The second has the regular tube bulbs (blanking on the name!) and the bulbs in it were from the pet store for use in planted tanks with aquatic plants. So both should be decent lights. And I've got them fairly close to the trays and will be raising them as the plants grow.

The Neandermato were the only ones to do this. I plucked out the damaged ones. There is a second sprout in the cell with previously one sprout. I'm putting two new  seed in the failed cell today.

Still no peppers. Have more sprouts in the TPS cells, mostly the red tetraploid but a few of Clancy outcrosses now up.

I went out and gathered (bulblets?) from Allium canadense plants all over some sections of the yard.

Unfortunately, the ones in the yard were mostly mowed (there were quite a few everywhere competing with grass).

Since I live in Mississippi now, I figured I wouldn't see this species. Wasn't aware there were 7 or 8 subspecies. Neat!


Small pink flowers, garlic / onion taste. The flower heads / bulblets are edible.


Honestly, I haven't checked the actual bulbs out, if they even have them or what their sizes are.


Anyways, I gathered bulblets. Tried to only grab ones with growth on them.

I found some small groupings with bulblets that were red at the pointed ends, grew a bit more oddly / stood more upright with stiffer stalks. When I found these, they were mostly all in the same patches, easy to spot from the others.


Anyways. These are notable for growing alongside crayfish mounds, under trees / basically a forest - into part shade. That sort of stuff.


Mower makes an interesting scent when those get chopped.


Did find some clover with nice looking leaves, pink flowers. They were closed as it was too late in the day. I saw green leaved clovers with large pink flowers in other yards. I'd say this is a different species, but I'm not used to the near dandelion flower sized clovers / oxalis species.

For whatever reason I dug up some of the Woodland clovers. Well, I tried. I noticed round tubers fall out - the size of a pea. These are also pretty much in mud / standing water.

Anyways, hoping that I can get those to grow well.


Nothing off type in those large populations from what I saw.

Just some off type small groupings Alliums.

Were the flowers (if you could see any flowers) distinct six pointed ones, or did the whole thing sort of look more like a purple pom-pom? If the latter, that's A. vineale, not candense That could also be you stiffer stalked plants (some vineale make flowers, some make bulbils and some make a bit of both).

The little pink clover is probably Alsyke (Trifolium hybridum), the big pink one is almost certainly Red Clover (T. pratense).


   

https://www.instagram.com/p/CqgoTAluM2D/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

https://www.instagram.com/p/CqifB11uWEg/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

https://www.instagram.com/p/CqifSH4uupO/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Posted some of them here.


I need to reset my password or something, can't login on my desktop. So posting images isn't working well.


I'm looking for the odd semi red bulblets that have others like it directly next to them, I'm unsure of what chemicals make up the red color - but those seem to be scant / rare in the big groups here.

They also usually have bigger or faster developing bulblets. Been watching some of them for a bit as they mature.

Maybe they're more likely to spread by seed or something.


Also, these flowers almost never flower all at once or in large numbers together on a plant.


I saw prariemoon has a subspecies with showier flowers, so I might consider looking over there and getting some Alliums if this is A. canadense. Some alliums in the same species can have populations with different chromosome counts too.

Seems like some species are bulblets only, no seed. I really don't wanna bring in diseases. So those would need isolated.


The bulblets I posted are ones I pulled up by a crayfish hole. I had wild spring onions at home, I'm unsure if these get larger but at the moment they aren't worth pulling up. Pea sized bulbs. I'll check other plants just to see if there's bigger ones.

Those are indeed A. Canadense, (vineale looks like below)(https://newfs.s3.amazonaws.com/taxon-images-1000s1000/Alliaceae/allium-vineale-fl-sbaskauf.jpg)

The "clover" actually appears to be some sort of oxalis, probably Oxalis articulata (not native, but a common cultivation escapee. I can't seem to tell if it has tubers or not (Oxalis tuberousa, oca, does, of course, but I can seem to find any quick info on whether any others do, and I don't think Oca can grow wild in the US.)

A lot of Oxalis do have small tubers. I think the common invasive Oxalis pes-caprae in Southern California propagates itself by them.

Just bought a soil blocker. Was it a necessity? Not exactly... Did I buy it anyway? Absolutely... 😅

They seem really interesting and I'm thinking with the compost I'm getting from the sheep winter pen.. plus our clay subsoil.. I think I can figure it out so that I'm not buying starter mix anymore.

The cell trays I got are little and I'm not sure yet how the tomatoes and things are going to like them.

Dunno. We'll see. I'll post back when it's in and I've played around with it. Also thinking soil blocks would be great to stick tomato suckers in to root. Easy propagation and I can make more plants from fewer seeds. Have some people interested in buying starts and long as it's a nice start it won't matter.

Posted this elsewhere, but there's garden related stuff:

https://flic.kr/p/2oygR8C

https://flic.kr/p/2oyhbsY

https://flic.kr/p/2oyeQob

Some other stuff:

https://flic.kr/p/2oybXmM

Strawberries - mostly white alpine. There's also probably F. virginiana and F.chiloensis.

There's also Potentilla simplex visible here. Dug some plants up and they're recovering.

Plus one plant in the middle, related to Raspberries and Strawberries. Can't remember it's name. Then there's the taller plant that I moved in there. I've seen it in the yard with pink flowers and I thought I saw other colors.

To me, thats probably potential hybrids. Or I'd hope so.


It seems like at least one Potentilla canadensis that survived from PA: https://flic.kr/p/2oyfPoM


And of course, found some Mock Strawberries:

https://flic.kr/p/2oyhgCH https://flic.kr/p/2oyf29u
https://flic.kr/p/2oyh17e


And lastly, a ground cover that I like: https://flic.kr/p/2oygXbE

The little white flowers eventually make round red berries.



I haven't updated anything here in awhile. Figured I'd post an update.

As mentioned in another thread, I do wanna hybridize Fragaria and other things together.

Finding that Mock Strawberries, Potentilla simplex and the third related species (tall thing) and some sorta raspberries are growing here.

This means that Fragaria virginiana and the other species will probably love it here too.


We might start moving some stuff over tomorrow.


I'll start prepping an area just for these to spread. Probably moving the herb beds when I able to and ready as well.

These will probably be all in the same space.

I lightly buried a bunch of Mock Strawberries in a pot. I HATE digging up things like Potentilla simplex / canadensis and those sorts of plants from clay soil.

They really, really don't like being dug up.


The Mock Strawberries at least have the perk of having red berries that I can grab and bury slightly into the soil.


Strawberries, I would preferably dig up or save seeds from them (also a pain)


If the Potentilla canadensis starts growing well enough, I imagine that it'll start doing its whole thing of spreading with runners.


I think it may cross freely with P. simplex.



Some neighbors have saw me mention Cucamelons. They seem to say they're all over as weeds from Mexico.

I asked some people if they tasted sour. I got responses of how they dried peoples mouths out and were watery.


They might be referring to Melothria pendula. If so, they're probably not invasive pests.

And animals probably eat them.


I will probably try growing some Cucamelons and just compare and contrast them.


If they think the two are the same, I'd like it if they could see the nice tasting ones.

I'm quoting from Tamara Clement who sells a lot of seeds on Seeds of Diversity in Canada.

Cucamelons must be eaten very young. When they get older, the size of a large grape, they get too sour to eat. You'll often find these described as 'lemony' - oh, please. They just taste plain bad when too mature. When young though these are actually excellent as a salad addition and come in WAY earlier than cucumbers, but salad addition is about it. They are the size of a raspberry when at the good to eat stage.

The hard part is that the term "cucamelon" is actually used to refer to two different cucurbits, Meliothra scabra and those members of Cucumis melo that are used like cucumbers (like the Armenian Metki, the Italina Carosello, and the Indian Dosaki, among others).

I've had cucamelons before. Bur yeah they can get pretty sour.

I've learned some tricks with them.

A bit of experimenting, accidental.


I watered on group of Cucamelons, frequently. Another group wasn't watered at all.


The group that wasn't watered much ended up being very sour.


The other group was just as watery as the other, but slightly sour. Soil and things were the same.



Now, I mentioned Melothria pendula because that's the one that turns black and makes that lovely laxative chemical. From what I've heard, it's watery and not exactly sour.

I tried a third species in Cancun. Wild thing. Grew 8 feet tall, up fences.


Then, there's Melothria scabra.

This species is the most widely used. The others are usually chopped up and added to vegetable things, cooked or canned.

It has the sour taste.


I happen to love sour things. And, I don't care much for fresh cucumbers.

I really seem to enjoy these things, even if they're sour. I don't get a lemony taste from it. Just plain watery and sourness. Reminds me a bit of sour patch kids.


Granted, others have different taste buds.


I was inspecting the one neighbors supposed Mouse melons and how they taste. I wanna say that they're possibly M. pendula.


M. pendula has been described as sometimes having a slightly tart flavor. And it's native to a good bit of the southwest united states.

The further population is in Delaware I think.


Unlike M. scabra, it's considered native to the United States.


But, neighbors saying that these make their mouth dry and some other stuff. Apparently none of them have grown them before.



I also just went out and noticed I have some possible M. scabra and the Delaware Perennial creeping cucumber from the Experimental Farm Network.


They were all small enough that I could move them.


The one neighbor that gets them popping up is actually right across from the property I'm moving to.


I might make a YouTube video or something if everything works out.



I think they said the things are grape sized, so they're probably Melothria.



I'll post updates eventually.



When I grew Cucamelons, they were off to the side, along with strawberries. I'd eat them both are the same time.


I don't know if these species can hybridize at all, but I have no real interest in trying to mess around with their very little flowers.

Does canning small cucamelons produce a palatable product?

I was given some cucamelon seed and will be trying it out this summer for the first time.

I believe they can be pickled whole like gherkins.

They probably do fine canned. There's probably some stuff online with various recipes for canning them.


They can be cooked, pickled or added to salads, but I usually grow them and let them spread in a permitted area and forage them as a juicy garden snack.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-05-06, 03:34:51 PMI believe they can be pickled whole like gherkins.

They probably do fine canned. There's probably some stuff online with various recipes for canning them.


They can be cooked, pickled or added to salads, but I usually grow them and let them spread in a permitted area and forage them as a juicy garden snack.

I've pickled them a few time when I had extras (which one usually does, the vines are quite prolific).

About the only thing I'd be cautious of in canning is the same thing one would when canning cucumbers, being high moisture, you may have a hard time keeping them firm and crispy.

While digging up Kniphofia "Lola", I accidentally broke off the green bits already growing out of the ground, off the bulb.

I'm pretty sure that I can get the thing to give me a second bulb / plant.

The bulb was already putting out like 6 other shoots of growth, so I'm not concerned about it.


I'm probably going to be planting the strawberries and things into a raised brick formation thing that has soil in it.


A bunch of neighbors here have bells in these exact same structures (huge ones).

Apparently, the former owners took their bell with them. So there's a wooden post in the center of the thing.



It's tall enough that strawberries should be able to hang nicely from the sides.


I'm also going to be making a sizeable raised bed, for experimental corn mini plots, maybe wild tomatoes and peppers.

Plus flowers and things.



The property has over 6 unused planter pots. A bunch are stone. Or there's stone baskets with planter spots, stone square pots.

I suppose I'll put things in those.


There's also cracked stone bird feeders on pillars.

Some neighbors said that's nothing compared to all the stuff they used to have / moved away.


There's at least 4 or 5 bird baths. Some of them are nearly flat. Most have leaves and things in them, bit dirty.

There's a stone statue of a lady. Tall as an average sized person almost. Probably heavy.


The nice thing with the bird baths, is that the tops come off. So, while the pillars and the top weigh a ton, they're aren't too horrible to move around.

Took the one apart, because the one edge of the bird bath was eroded, probably won't hold water. Thick enough that it could probably be grinded, and it is also possible to repair stone stuff a bit.

But yeah. Nah.



I like bird baths and things. More bird baths, usually means more birds flying around. The stone planters are small and heavy for their size, but they look nice.


There was some stuff that was left behind. Like a stone koi fish statue / fireplace. Filthy, was in storage. It was orange at one point. The mouth and tail work for placing firewood in, and the other works for letting smoke pour out.


The inside of the house was apparently made with pricey stuff, top of the line decades ago.

Chandeliers, speakers in the walls in each room that can talk back and forth between others (they're broken).



I'd say the people who lived here, put some money into making things look nice and whatnot.

I'm unsure about the statues myself. I guess they're neat. Probably need scrubbed a bit.


The one statue has roses, few different varieties around it. Most are frilled, but it appears that they're types that expose the center. Bees hate having to push petals from roses.

There's a "snowball shrub / bush", huge white spheres that remind me of hydrangea or rhododendron flower clusters, wisteria shrubs, a blueberry bush (pretty big).



The owner was an older lady who hired landscapers at some point. Couldn't do stuff herself anymore, which is understandable.

So, there's a good bit of trimming and cleaning that needs done.

Some stuff is overgrown and probably needs cut back to their main branches or whatever.

Some stuff is flat out dead.


Not garden related, but there's also a piano that apparently the owners couldn't get rid of. Yeah. Maybe I'll learn how to play it.

I really dislike seeing those sorts of things get junked or burnt.


One building, a little thing used as a greenhouse, was considered a bit unsafe because of some structural damages. Very small shack.

So that was hauled away, not worth the costs of fixing it - cheaper to have a new one made. And that was kind of a "Oh, an extra thing" anyway.


The grass and stuff is dead under it, not a super ideal place for a greenhouse either. So, that's where the mentioned planter bed is going.

Just going to repurpose the dead grass area, put some stuff over it to kill off the grass completely. Nice raised bed area.

Not a huge amount of sun, but it exists. With the heat down here, a lot of flowers and things actually like the shade.



Nice house and property. Pretty excited about this. Still not living alone, but yeah.

Whoever lived here, seemed to enjoy landscaping and did a lot of things themselves. There was a garden at one point, but the lady couldn't do those anymore. Can't even tell where it would've been.

One neighbor was helping me figure out what certain plants are.

I found a bramble, with a red cane and huge amounts of little spikes.

Went "what's that?" Was told its a raspberry.


It looks identical to a wineberry.

Because I'm into bramble breeding and growing.

I'd permit it being wineberries. But, the brambles are just all scattered around shrubs by the house.


I'm going to collect some wild bramble canes here in a bit.


Frankly, the ones I brought with me basically died immediately. And I don't feel like buying a ton of new plants at this moment.

Wild brambles or feral ones. They taste fine to me.

I'm also considering on just using Mock Strawberries and Strawberries this year to make little jams. Together. Probably won't have a ton of Strawberries.


I'll possibly be planting garlic and regular chives. Plus I'm gathering some wild garlic tops that are now all dried on plants, moved a pot with ones I moved weeks ago to the new place already.


Those little top bulblets, actually taste nice if anyone was wondering.

Growing a bunch of eggplants. Seems they do well down here, few weeks behind on planting.

As mentioned before, a lot of stuff is being mixed into the neighbors garden.

They're also late on planting stuff into the ground.


I'm going to be planting the ground cherries and Jaltomato species / varieties by the new house, it's like a minute or two of a drive away from them.

Or I could walk over.



The strawberries are also getting planted over there as mentioned, same with the cucamelons.



I'm really wanting the strawberries, ground cherries and cucamelons over there as snacks.


I also kinda wanna try making a jam using both strawberries and ground cherries.

I'm growing Pierce Lester's ground cherry, a type from the Experimental Farm Network, Mary's Niagara, Aunt Molly's and some old seed from baker creek for the generic unnamed ground cherry - not many of those last ones germinated.

Good bit of ground cherries.


I found this online:

https://www.homesteadingwhereyouare.com/2020/05/14/deliciously-sweet-ground-cherry-jam/


I also think a strawberry / ground cherry pie sounds neat.


I'm glad that another person thought combining these sounded like a good idea. They seem to pair well together when eaten together.

And I think they sound like they'd mix well canned together as a jam.


Maybe I'll go nuts and try including cucamelons. Maybe to an experimental little jar.

From what I'm reading, ground cherry jams don't need much pectin or whatever added.

Different ground cherries also have different flavors.


Was telling some people about ground cherries and they didn't seem to know what they are. I believe they should grow well here.

My mother had never had them before, she was eventually eating them because they simply sat in jars for weeks. Then she went "Hey, these are good what were they called again?"

She did call them Japanese cherries earlier, probably confusing them with Chinese lanterns again. But she's got the spirit.



I'm thinking that the white alpine strawberries, and other things may pair well with these things.

Garden strawberries are lacking in some flavor profiles, even when canned. So, I quite like growing the alpine ones and F. virginiana - other things.



Ground cherries are underutilized in my opinion. People just don't know what they are or how to use them. I lived in PA, where the Amish use them and a lot of other people also didn't know what they are.


They're nutritious, do well canned or as snacks.

And they last a few weeks in their husks, cherry tomatoes tend to last a shorter period of time in comparison.


I'm also growing Queen Of Malinalco Tomatillo. I described them to others as being like small, round and fruity tomatillos.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-05-08, 02:16:32 PMI'm also considering on just using Mock Strawberries and Strawberries this year to make little jams. Together. Probably won't have a ton of Strawberries.

Would the Mock Strawberries just be for bulk? I don't recall the things having any real flavor, or even adding much in the way of color.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-05-08, 02:16:32 PMI'll possibly be planting garlic and regular chives. Plus I'm gathering some wild garlic tops that are now all dried on plants, moved a pot with ones I moved weeks ago to the new place already.


Those little top bulblets, actually taste nice if anyone was wondering.

Check some bottoms as well. I once found a few wild garlic plants whose bottom bulbs were about the size of small domestic garlic ones Though, as I found them in a disused public flower garden, they could have been some floral allium planted there on purpose. But if they WERE regular field garlic (they both looked and smelled like it) it means it has the potential to grow a LOT bigger than one would assume.
 

Musk strawberries taste decent.

Flavors can vary between varieties and wild types, then you need male and female plants as well.

I mostly want it, because it's chromosome count works well as a base for crossing some strawberry species.


Alpine types - vesca, are probably the ones I prefer the most.


Most garden strawberries, flavors can vary but it's usually just sugary sweet which I like. Or it's very tart, very watery and no flavor.


Other strawberries have more nuances. Breeders do try getting flavorful strawberries, but a lot of them happen to be F. vesca which doesn't cross well into Garden strawberries or F. virginiana or the like.

Most of mine tend to be alpine, since those are the ones where I can find appropriate ones for my "trick" (I found out that, while the birds will gobble down any red strawberries I grow, they ignore yellow or white ones, so that is what I plant.)

As, I have mentioned, I'd LIKE to get my hands on the green fruited version  of F.viridis, but no one seems to
sell it.

I'd also love to get the Latvian leucocarpa variation of Vaccinium myrtillus, since I think white blueberries might similarly get around the problem for that. At least there there might be a chance (I do know a few seed sellers in Latvia, maybe I can ask one to go out, pick a few, smear them on a piece of paper, and mail them to me.)

Yeah, I'm growing a white wonder strawberry or something in terms of the alpine strawberries.

I'm hoping that some other species and things survived.


I'm likely to just make little jars of jelly and things out of anything I get this year.



There's a chance birds and things will eat my strawberries. I don't entirely mind as I'm not gardening / growing them as a staple crop or anything.

They're also likely to disperse the seeds, there's no wild strawberries that I've found so far.

There's bogs / wetlands all around, so they'd probably do well here.

I'm sure there's some isolated spots in untouched woodlands with strawberries.

If F. virginiana survived (plants are all still too young / little for me to confirm), then that'll mean I will have pea sized strawberries from those.


There are the mock strawberries that are naturalized here. I don't say invasive, because they're on pretty much every lawn and growing in the swamps. I doubt it's possible to get rid of them.


This: https://flic.kr/p/2oygXbE

Grows everywhere. A native species called Mitchella repens, the red berries are edible - supposedly tasteless.

Well, maybe faint "wintergreen" flavors. I actually thought it could be wintergreen. Last year I gave the little berries a squeeze and they popped open. Watery things.

Rose hips and Holly have the harder drupes.


Anyways, mock strawberries and Mitchella repens are both groundcovers and they grow side by side from what I've seen.

And I've seen Mock Strawberries that have missing fruits. I'd imagine that the same birds that eat the native plant, went "Oh, more tasteless red spheres." and started eating those as well.

Mock Strawberries put their fruits on before the native plant too.



I gathered a bunch of Mock Strawberry fruits and placed them in the corner of a brick planter.


I also put Mitchella repens in the planter in a seperate spot. Did I mention this species is in the same family as Coffee?

Some people here also seem to like collecting edible plants from different families.



I plan on letting the plants drape over the sides of the "planter."


I planted some mint towards the center of the planter. There's a broken wooden post that used to support a large bell.


I also put Melothria scabra on another side, just to drape off the side.

I might plant marigolds to mitigate potential root nematodes and things. Those would go towards the center, by the mint. Marigolds produce chemicals in their roots which spreads to the surrounding soil and poisons those pests.


Strawberries were also planted.


Some of these will get larger, like Mitchella repens I've noticed gets taller next to trees or areas that don't get mowed. So, that didn't go in a corner. It's in a middle grounds spot. I'm assuming it'll get larger in this planter / taller.


Eventually adding a rounded wooden post or something to replace the broken plank in the center of those one may be in order. I'd grow true climbers like beans or some form of legume up it. Just for nitrogen.


Perennial beans may be nice.

A lot of the things I'm planting are probably breeding projects too.


https://flic.kr/p/2ozH63o



I don't know of many sellers that still grow and sell F. viridis at all. F. moschata is sold by lesser known sellers as well.


I know of one seller that offers named F. moschata varieties and that's the strawberry store or whatever the sites called.

I planted out the corn the other day.

I planted out the peppers in a garden bed.

Neighbors one garden, the tomatoes went into.


I planted the eggplants near roses and things in a large bed (we are moving from the rental property to a nearby property), I also planted ground cherries and a few tomatillos and things there.


The lady who owned the place was older, stuff needs cleaned up anyway. So they're going in that rose garden bed. Leaves and things keep the weed down, so why not, right?


I also planted some stuff by weedy shrubs that we won't cut down this year.

Some moonflower seeds, Clark's heavenly blue morning glory, cardinal vine, blue podded shelling peas. For some reason I bought guar beans at some point. So they went there too.


I planted some Hokaido Adzuki beans, Village Bambaras in the same area.

Next to a large garage, wooded area near it has a big clearing with fallen branches everywhere - lot of them work as natural trellises.

On the other end of those, I planted Holstein cowpeas, and Sea Island cowpeas. Some of them climb.

I haven't grown a lot of these out, even though I bought a lot of them awhile ago.


So, I'm planting them not for eating - just for seed.


I also planted like three or four dwarf / bush runner beans from Germany.


I planted some Red Swan bush beans, and Succotash beans.


Sunshine runner beans, some yellow podded beans (Mera-something, I'll probably reply with the name later), and Lohrey's Tasmanian Beans, went into different corners of the garden bed.

I'll let them probably grow up some prepared things.



I'm hoping to see if some of the dwarf beans, still outcross at all.


If they do, the beans all appear to look different, save for the white ones.


That's also why I planted the sunset runner beans there too. There's apparently genetic factors with it too. There's a higher likelihood of them being able to cross back to the outcrossing beans - usually it only works in one direction.


Some people here were interested in that sort of thing if I remember correctly. They're finally planted!


One variety has huge beans. Larger than any lima I've seen. I'm interested as to how it'll work as a dwarf / bush variety.

I'm not sure if they're all "bush" or if some are half or dwarf ones. Crossing some poles beans, especially different species doesn't always give out half runner, pole or bush.

Planted some Tarahumara squash and Calabaza mayera - along with some more compact things.

Planted an African landrace of squash too.

Plus, some C. pepo var. texana.

The texana, and some others went near a semi sun / shade area with fallen branches, natural living trellises. Plus there's some fencing nearby.


There's a similar area on the other side of the garage where I planted some bush beans towards a sunny area, then I planted some pole types on more fallen branches / cut branches and things.


This way, the pole beans / bush beans are seperate. Plus, they're separate from the other legume climbers.


These are solely being grown for seed. Squash is more or less in that same boat. The squash will probably cross, but I want that to happen. And I have limited amounts of seed to sustain actual populations of each "variety." Being landraces probably helps for some of them.

I planted the following in an area where I dumped old soil at: 'Monarch' Celeriac, Sweet Cicely, Polish Root Parsley, 'Harris Model' Parsnip, Skirret, Bigseed Biscuitroot, 'Chinese Pink' Celery, Polish Turnip-Rooted Chervil, Cow Parsnip (California Ecotype), Homesteader's Kaleidoscopic Perennial'Kale Grex.

I should have Seombadi (Perennial Korean Celery) somewhere too.


I planted a pot that has had some PA State Champion Kentucky Coffee Tree and Mao Er Shi Shu (Blue Sausage Fruit) germinating in it. Something killed one that was germinating. A coffee tree seedling.


I'm hoping to get some Zabala and Akebia plants / seeds and some related species eventually too.


I have two Boquila trifoliolata plants / vines coming in from Far Reaches Farm in a couple of weeks.

I bought one from them before, had it indoors. Cats thought it would be funny to knock the pots over when I was out of the country.

These may be self incompatible, so more than one plant is probably for the best. I want berries since they're seemingly hardy in my zone.

They should produce little berries that have edible skin and seeds unlike other species.


It's a very cool species, shipping and plants can be pricey. But.

They're too interesting and hard to get for me to ignore. Plus the whole edible "chocolate smelling / tasting" berries.

I'm on the way to a fiber show for the weekend. I spent the week getting everything priced, tagged, packed,... Setting up everything for the sheep so my sister can take care of them and the dogs for me.
Sooo the garden isn't getting planted til next week. Same as last year's tomato plants. My plants are significantly shorter this year! I'm actually going to have to start the seeds next year maybe another week or so early than I did this year. We'll see how they do in the garden though.

Bush beans are coming up. These are planted sorta late.

Which is whatever, its the south.

Pole beans are a better option as its the south - and I have space for pole beans (I can get a lot more out of pole beans from what I have been reading, bush beans are shorter with their growing time / production for shorter seasons), but I don't have trellises or things set up on the new property.



I will try posting the beans that I planted, their names. They're all in German, I had a small lots of seed permit and obtained them at some point.


Finally got around to planting them.


4 or 5 different bush / dwarf runner beans with purple or pink dry beans. One has a huge bean / seed. Most have the same coating as typical ones.


I planted a few white ones elsewhere.


Near these, I planted a row of Succotash beans, a row of pebble beans, a row of red swan beans - some others.


I planted some pole beans in the beds corners. Marvel Of Venice, Sunset Runner, Lohrey's Old Tasmanian.

Did two different corners of Sunset Runner, I believe.


I was gonna plant some golden wax bush beans and whatnot too.

Frankly, I'd prefer it if I could manage a cross with Marvel Of Venice instead. It has nicer pods and things, in my opinion. And, I don't care about getting pole traits mixed into anything as I'm planning on making bush and pole populations at some point.


I would like to plant purple podded beans at some point too.

Maybe next year. Or maybe I'll goto Walmart and get seed for a random variety.


I'm probably waiting. I'd prefer to get decent varieties with all sorts of traits.


Oh yeah, there's multiple "Marvel Of Venice" varieties. I planted the black seeded type that I got from Baker Creek, years back.

Yes, the other type is supposedly earlier. The black one, seems to give me flatter pods while still having larg beans though. And its silkier / smoother in my opinion.



Lohrey's Old Tasmanian, is a sort of pole bean that has a natural salty sort of flavor.

Sometimes, foods and things have myths about them.


I researched it quite a bit before buying it. Seems like multiple people note that it has a salty taste and whatever contents.


This could mean that the bean pulls up salt from the soil or something, and puts it into the beans. Some studies that I found, did mention beans that may be able to do this.



I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be true.

A lot of plants do this.


There's crystalline ice plants and other plants that pull up salt from the soil, and they drop their leaves eventually which prevents other plants from growing there.

Okahiji Saltwort does that to an extent.


A population of beans, adapted to grow around salt and take it into themselves and do the same thing isn't unthinkable.


I'm highly assuming that if they do have a reasonable salt content in them, that this may impact other plants.

They could easily probably grow as creeping plants or grow on other salt adapted plants.


Anyways. Large beans, that have colorful pods and have salty tastes. Productive and large pods would be nice.


I also actually kinda really like the color of Succotash beans. I've grown them before, they crossed with a green bean (Succotash parent) and some other beans.

Noticed the second year or so, but stuff happened, lost the seed.


Anyways. Yeah. They're nice little purple bush beans. Just as purple as Dobranoc corn when dry.

Crossing them with pintos or something would be a nice goal for the future.

Granted, I also want deep purple podded pole beans.


If I get any bush Runner beans with the typical Runner seed coating on them to cross with the Succotash beans.

That would be wonderful. Succotash beans are a deeper purple. Runners are always bigger from what I've seen.

It's also possible that they have different genes responsible for the antho / purple colors. Which could mean a deeper purple. Different species sometimes have that happen.

It's been seen with tomatoes.


While I'm also interested in Purple corn and whatnot, I've noticed that they tend to get a lot of antho on their foliage or things, which can be detrimental to production and growth to an extent.


I haven't noticed it much in beans.



I'd also like to see if there's traits that could move the anthocyanin found in purple beans pods, solely into the seed itself.

Or if they'll tie together when mixed with other anthocyanin sorts of varieties - runners and other species anthocyanin podded types alike. Just a hope. I haven't researched that sorta stuff too much yet.



There's also Runner beans with bicolor flowers. Very nice looking ones.


There's also ones with double or triple flowers. That's what happens when people grow things as an ornamental and as food.

I'll need to find those. I've also heard of orange and red bicolored flower types.

There's a purple podded type only found by trade seemingly as well.


I've also heard of variegated foliage beans, and ones with silvery or velvet foliage. Both are kept by close knits of traders who don't want them to enter any form of commercial trade. That way only they have them.


Now, if there ever happens to be variegated podded beans that appear. I'd jump at those.


I'm going to be planting some Red Sunflowers later and Variegated Sunspots Sunflower later. Hopefully.

Appearently, critters find them to be very tasty. And I have limited seed. So I'll need to start them in pots until they're a certain size. Even seedlings are seen as fair game to critters here.

I purchased some spinach, beet and bean seeds at a plant nursery m.

"Top Notch" company.


Anyways, Early Wonder and Bloomsdale. Beets and spinach.


Then, Jackson Wonder Lima beans.

Seems like they're bush beans. Which I guess Bush limas tend to make tendrils. And they can withstand a lot of heat and things.


Perennial beans, woodland ones - can't quite remember their name. Those are more closely related to Limas than other species I think.


I've also heard that interspecific hybrids may cross over to teparies more easily (In the case of runner x common beans).

This could be because runners have more open flowers.

Bean flowers tend to abort a lot, I've noticed if tampered with or emasculated.


I'm going to check out Limas more next year, maybe some runners and tepary beans.


I dislike growing teparies near other beans. They have some diseases that they're immune to, but they harm other related species and infect them.


They're usually not pole beans, some wild subspecies are. But those don't seem to be cultivated.

So I may grow some in pots indoors and do some safe crosses / limited contact, no insects being pests and spreading disease.


Like the pebble beans, these appear to have beans with different colors on them in the same plant.

Christmas beans or whatever seem to be the same. Limas in particular are notable with them doing that sorts stuff.


I haven't grown many limas, save for Alma's PA Dutch.

Lot of beds to fix up or plant stuff in, at the new property.


Some stuff we got:


2 Mexican Heather Allyson

1 Texas Sage - I thought this looks nice and may pair well near the Heather. Not a true sage.




1 Cardinal Flower - planting near the hummingbird feeder.

2 Candy Corn Vine - planting up a trellis next to the hummingbird feeder - got two plants

1 Salvia splendens x darcyi - Roman red - Planting near the hummingbird feeder

1 Pineapple sage - planting near the hummingbird feeder

1 Asclepias perennis white milkweed - pollinator garden


1 Katie Purple Ruellia - Already have a volunteer / native to the area or invasive Ruellia in a pot. Was here when we moved, it's in other yards and wherever.

This one is R. brittoniana

1 Helianthus salicfolius first light - pollinator garden

1 Blue Fortune Mexican Hyssop / Agastache - pollinator garden

I didn't know this when I bought it, but it's a cross between A. rugosa and A. foeniculum. So a native species and a non-native. Either way it works as an herb too.

1 Monarda didyma bee you bee free

1 Machu Morado Ruellia simplex, already planted in the same pot as the native one.

1 Wild ruellia

1 Mealycup sage sallyfun snow white Salvia farinacea



There's some shrubs too.


I'll probably get volunteers and stuff from the sages and things. They'll be moved to the pollinator garden at some point.


Eventually.


I'd have them there altogether in the first place, but I do actually want hummingbirds to stop at the flowers rather than drink sugar water.


This is just me, but I feel that it's very unhealthy for them. And they come back to the same areas, year after year.


And flowers give more than just sugar. I'd very much prefer them drink from flowers.


Anyways the feeders will be in easy to see areas, from the windows.

I'm also interested in growing out some Buddleja species in the pollinator garden.

Buddleja alternifolia

Buddleja × weyeriana 'Golden Glow'  - Buddleja globosa X  B. davidii var. magnifica - Hybrid of a Asian and Chilean Buddleja. Appearently fertile.

Buddleja colvilei' Kewensis' - Large flowers. And they're red.

Buddleja delavayi - "The buds of the spring flowers are formed in autumn, and protected from frost by small dry brown scales resembling those of the Cherry, and are unique within the genus." Plus heavily honey scented flowers.

Buddleja americana - tetraploid, most American species are diploid.

Buddleja davidii - tetraploid

Buddleja indica - From Madagascar. Small thing, makes berries rather than spreading by the wind or whatever. Oh yeah, it's been hybridized with B. davidii and produced fertile offspring.

Buddleja utahensis



There's some red flowered South American species that are just for hummingbirds too.



I'd like to get a red flowered, honey scented, bloom protected specimen that's healthy for bees and enjoyable by hummingbirds and bees / butterflies. And ones that produce berries. I don't know if they're edible. But, bird food. Yeah.


A ton of species are zone 8 hardy.


I'd have to be wary of invasiveness.


Some of these I'd have to grow indoors.



I really like projects where things cross easily or where it's ones where I'm not eating the produce or whatever.

Cuphea lanceolata and C. viscosissima are also plants that I'd like to try growing out.

https://hayefield.com/product/cuphea-purple-mystery/

This could be C. lanceolata.

The description says it could be a hybrid between the two - which, I've seen mention of the two species being crossed to make a suitable palm oil alternative.


C. viscosissima, is hardy down to like zone 6. The other species is maybe Zone 10.



The other species, that I'll already be growing is Cuphea hyssopifolia.


Frankly, every few years there's a frost here.



So yeah. Even zone 7 hardy specimens would be really nice.


The neighbors down the road grow these too.


Cuphea hyssopifolia, has very nice foliage.


Now, the flowers are fine too.


They could be improved on.


I didn't even knew the genus existed until recently.


Pretty cool.

I've discovered a bunch of beauty berries on the property.

There was a also a Hackberry - it was cut though.

I'm assuming that it'll put out shoots that I can take cuttings of and move.


One Ukrainian elderberry thing from The Experimental Farm Network has to flower bundles on it.


I don't think elderberries are common here.


I took some cuttings and put some rooting powder on them.


Bees love those things.






I've been busy with astral stuff. I can do it very easily.



The other day in the astral I counter attacked Yah'wei.

Someone tried telling me that I was referring to Odin.


Odin doesn't have yellow veins. Valkyries wings all go completely back into their backs and they use two different white energies to attack with.

Plus Odin is considered to be weak.


Odin also doesn't have the power to mass produce weapons with the souls of their enemies in them.


From what I could tell, Yah'wei did help to make a giant "God Machine" that doesn't answer prayers. Basically placed people who aren't bad there, their soul chunks.


The guys a heavy racist, there was a stone wall that had an answer of "The Only Way To Unity With Your Kind Is Death", you guess that and you're sent off into a black box. Most of those beings missing family were in the weapons they were given.


Yah'wei hates any higher self race that isn't pale / fair skinned, and humanoid / mammalian. Plus he hates certain energies.


He took out basically a race of tech reliant dark skinned humanoids, because they bugged him out with their skin color. They're in marvel movies I believe. That would be representing surviving populations.



Plus Odin never used many ships, wasn't super tech based.



I usually call him The Devil, the old testament calls him "The Lord" or "The White Snake" on one occasion I think.


He's called the white snake because he hates reptiles the most and being called a snake drives him nuts. That was probably snuck in.


"Lord" - "Baal" can refer to beings who hold reign over a place or large territory or small territories.



I was showing some people some energy traces of "Way Down In The Hole", the individual is called "The Devil" and "The Lord" in the song.


Jesus's mighty sword is his words.

The angels shielding you with their wings and keeping you close to The Lord - and "his hands are so cold".

This means that if you start figuring things out, The Devil / Yah'wei will stop whoevers telling you stuff or try telling you the opposite and to only listen to gospel or himself.



Anyways, they stick black boxes into molten steel and the boxes break down and it's made as a prison for the souls.


I've also heard a story attributed to "Enki", something about the Destroyer of AI, bots and something. Refers to Yah'wei. Enki refers to a cluster of beings, one of which is a Draconian.



The fellow spins a lot of lies and tells beings false origins about themselves. Plus he calls my higher selves race "AI", when we are simply beings that formed as energy beings.

I used to assume a humanoid form, compressed because our forms hurt most beings. We were friends. Until I found out about the racism stuff. He also found out that I'm not really a humanoid and considers my higher selves kin to be the beings he hates the most.


So I would be a big yellow guy, astrally. Granted others have been trying to mask as me or talk as me. Bit annoying. Like 56% of people like myself were marked as bots and had others projected and speaking as us.



I think Yah'wei calls me Brighter.


I posted about this elsewhere and my phone has been messing up and bugging out. One person said my posts I made about this have death warnings or something if they read it.





Anyways, I am still working on the garden, and my beans are coming up.



I keep astral talks to elsewhere.



I sent "Odin"'s incarnated person or whatever to someone who I scanned as "Legolas" and "Sheogorath". Someone else said Beetlejuice and Joker.

I believe after some battles we ended up sending a bunch of very bad people and fellows orchestrating stuff to the Jokers stomach and they've all been fighting. Plus we released beings that were forced to incarnate and immediately sealed so that a "invasion" and "we are protecting you" narrative to be pushed out.

Bad ones were released and sent to the incarnated baddie place.



But yeah, it's not that I'm not gardening or not keeping up with some projects.


Astral posts elsewhere have kept me busy.

With the supposed Joker guy, I messaged him a few times.

Found out that he kept people's middle ground brains in a weird place that others understood to house "crazy people" or those who talk too much.


The moment you're born, they're collected with no exceptions.


Then people were having the same orders funneled to them through that while in his madness place.


I don't believe that part was common knowledge.



Other races middle grounds brains, he kept stored in objects and he "trained" people to be soldiers.

One object, a crystal orb with a dragon in it, had a energy label that said "Failed Experiments".


Seems he needs to know who people are in 3D to start controlling them.


Those secondary brains were all dealt with though. They're no more.



He also told me that sometimes people aren't with the right people, and that he'd fix that and put them in cute couplings. Like he'd match people who hate each other with each other. Or beings that look odd or funny together.


And he called them things or possessions.

I think he was trying to reason with me that he's doing good things and to give his "stuff back".


Anyways, he was emptied out and we gave him incarnated baddies and whoever to store in him.

He gave me a image of himself smiling and glaring with a red filter when I sent him Odin or whoevers image.




So yeah, there's that guy and a super racist that I've been having to deal with on both ends.



Brokered a deal with the one, by force. His higher self appearently looks like a giant black dragon or something to people.


I guess they were both allowed or told to do stuff that was kept hidden from the other. Well hidden from everyone.


But yeah, that stuff and other stuff. I've been busy.



Elderberries will probably go into the pollinator garden next to the Beautyberries. I don't mind birds and things eating them.

This spring has been a mess. Busy. Non stop rain in April then basically nothing in May. Just got the first rain this past weekend and some more every day since. Been keeping it cooler which has been nice.

I got the flax planted. The rest of the garden grew up with weeds. I lost all the early starts because it went straight from frosting to upper 80s.

I'm getting the tomatoes and peppers planted out finally. Late. But we'll see how they do. Seriously thinking to only direct seed everything next year. Things get so busy.

There is just over 100 days to Oct 1st. I'm going to take the half of the garden that was sitting to be corn and plant out the teosinte starts. And plant all the pepo pumpkin seeds. And the maxima grex (going to seed). This way I'll have something.

The area that was supposed to be the squash patch has the sheep on it now. With the heat and lack of rain the grass growth slowed alot. So I had to use it in order to give the first area enough time.

Kind of a downer but do the best with what I can this year.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CtiIY_ttNWJ/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Images.



This is a rather fun post.


First of all, I wanna say that these are likely hybrid beans.


I was growing some Alma's PA Dutch (Phaseolus lunatus), Marvel Of Venice (Black seed), Succotash beans and some others up a trellis.

We had a very bad year for mildew on the squash and beans.


I got some yellow flowers from one bean, and moldy pods with mildew before I could get ripe beans.

The Succotash beans gave me plenty of seed though and did the best.



The following year, I didn't keep up with the garden. I planted some Succotash beans eventually because I had so many.


I even planted some some near a hummingbird feeder pole.


The ones in the garden were, ah. How did another user word this. "Pulled out by a well intended relative" or however they worded it.


Anyways, I ended checking on some flowers.

I noticed that the Succotash beans outpaced the runner beans going up the trellis at first, then grew oddly.


Eventually I got some rough / indented pods that reminded me of runner beans.


The Succotash beans were larger than normal - green pods at least. I was simply checking the insides, because they had large thick pods. I mean they're larger than a lot of other beans to begin with, sure.

But, yeah. Big.



I thought "hey maybe these are runner x common beans, cool!"


Which, yeah. The runners and common beans did both grow in the same yard. The ones on the trellis the year before that never germinated - they rotted.


I eventually mixed the seeds up with some others from the year before and labeled some by themselves.


Seems that I placed them back into the seed packet and stored them in a plastic tote with labels.



It also came to my attention as I was searching what else I planted the year before, that Lima beans have thick indented pods.


None of the Succotash beans had any Runner Bean markings either. Granted that would've probably been an F1.



Either way, I remembered that they existed.

I did plant some on a trellis again, but I was aware that I was moving and didn't plant a ton of stuff.




I'm honestly not a bean expert and I rather dislike the taste of them. I've only had bushes baked beans.

Appearently, there's multiple types and ways of preparing beans. So yeah.


I'm also growing 4 or 5 "Dwarf runner beans" that I got from Germany using a small lots of seed a few years back now.


Most are from breeding programs. Hestia is the only one I know of here in the states.


I also planted Lohrey's Old Tasmanian, Sunset Runner beans, Marvel Of Venice on the corners of the raised bed.



There's also Red Swan bush beans on the one side.


Can barely call these rows. I moved out of a rental, now there's a property. Things stayed in cells for too long.


So I tried planting beans with the hope that the peppers will eventually make a comeback.



I also planted Jackson Wonder Limas recently. They're the beans with white veins on them.then.



I was a bit confused as to why people here don't know about runner beans despite all of the migratory hummingbird spots here and the fact that there's so many more than up north.


Runner beans appearently hate heat and high humidity.


I'm hoping that some of the dwarf runners can accept pollen from common beans or the sunset runner bean.

Or donate pollen to the sunset runner.



It's possible that they've been selected for closed flowers. Most have red flowers from what I've read, which is good - yeah.



I'm unsure if what I have are runner or common bean hybrids. I'm hoping Lima hybrids or something. To my knowledge, they're rarer and probably more sought after than Common x Runners.


I did move to Mississippi Zone 8b and probably need to update my profile.


Limas are tolerant towards heat and humidity.


Any Lima hybrid, would be wonderful here. Though, Alma's PA Dutch is meant for up North - I'm fairly sure that Lima beans can outcross a bit more than common beans.


I've noticed some oddities happening with some of these plants.


I can't be 100% certain that these are hybrids.


I also haven't seen much activity in the bean threads, I will move future posts there.



There's probably people here more well versed in Phaseolus than I am.

So. Yeah, anyone familiar with hybrids or who could say "I've grown hybrids of X and X and they don't look like this, then I'd appreciate it greatly.


Is any of this stuff unusual in beans or anything?


I'll post the flowers which should be pink / purple, I think, when they appear.





That's copy pasted from elsewhere, limas are elsewhere on my Instagram. I'll post those eventually.



Noticed oddities: one plant made two tendrils immediately - they've shot upwards and began to climb each other. The front and back, rather than the points facing the first two leaves are putting on new growth for more shoots.

I'm also seeing another leaf that resembles a single cotyledon.


A plant next to that one, put out two cotyledons, and then formed a single large leaf - no leaflets. Then another one just like it formed across from it on the opposite end. Looks like another set of cotyledons.


That second set, each is putting out a shoot with the same three leaves as is standard.


Sure, they're below the first set of cotyledons. But he's obviously just trying to live his life out here.

No growth in between the first set of cotyledons, at least not yet.



I'll mention other oddities if I find them along with flower colors and whatnot.



Obviously, if I have a fertile Lima x Common bean, I need to make sure I'm crossing them into other limas and common beans.


Along with whatever runner x common backcrosses that I can possibly get using the dwarf stabilized hybrids.


But yeah. Bean experts are more than welcome to chime in.



I'll place another large post underneath this one. Goes with it, some of this I've already posted but this other stuffs nicer.

I checked further up and I posted some of the beans way up there awhile back. I believe I mixed the possible F1s and F2s together. But yeah. (Mixed them up since I lost my labels, but I documented where I planted anything in that yard)

I've also purchased some other stuff since I got excited.

Strophostyles helvola - from The Experimental Farm Network. Woolly Bean Breeders Mix.

"These seeds all come from coastal areas from Brigantine, New Jersey south to Cape Charles, Virginia."


Strophostyles helvola - Hayefield, Bucks County PA Ecotype.


Strophostyles helvola - Trailing Wild Bean, Prarie Moon Nursery


Strophostyles leiosperma - Small Wild Bean, Prarie Moon Nursery



Alma's PA Dutch Purple Burgundy  Hayefield, same source as my original seed.



Phaseolus polystachios - Wild Kidney Bean, Prarie Moon Nursery. I call these Thicket Beans.


Peruvian Cow Print Lima, Phaseolus lunatus
Paul's Jungle Lima Bean, Phaseolus lunatus
Deep Maroon and White Lima (Possibly Christmas Bean or a related bean), Phaseolus lunatus.

The limas are from Brian Laufer / Raindanceseeds.



I'm simply putting site names for reference, as mentioned before.


I'm aware that the Experimental Farm Network and Oikos were selling some Phaseolus polystachios accessions at some point.



I'm also aware that P. polystachios and P. lunatus are closely related.



If I'm crossing Runners, Common beans and Limas - it's probable that I'm going to be selecting for open flowers. Well, open flowers / self incompatibility, large red bicolor flowers, heat tolerance, insect tolerance.

You know, stuff like that.


Anyways, it's probable that my chances of P. polystachios crossing with Limas would go up if I have Limas crossed into an open flowered hybrid between Common beans and Runners.


I'm well aware that Limas were domesticated multiple times in different areas. Just like some other Phaseolus species.

There are true annual limas as well as perennials that simply die in temperate locations, even Florida.



Limas are simply tropical, very tropical to the point that they won't tolerate some lows for extended periods of time.


Peruvian Cow Print Lima is probably a perennial type. It's from Amazonian markets. And according to the description, it can reach up to 50ft.




If I have an interspecific Lima, I would really like to get different accessions and whatnot.


More accessions means more of a chance of genes to mix with different species and hopefully give me more bizarre plants - possibly ones that can accept P. polystachios pollen.


I don't know if I can stress enough of how much I want P. polystachios hybrids.



We all grow beans from the tropics or from Mexico, legumes. Ones adapted for dry areas or tropics.


They've been worked on a lot. But, nature has also presented us with a variable species that's found all across the United States, from a temperate climate and different zones, other sorts of climates. And it has resistances to our climates and there's probably an ecotype in everyone's state or just about every state.

They're hard to find as they were wiped out in a lot of areas appearently due to deforestation. They're called Thicket Beans for a reason. And colonists weren't a fan of vines.



Regardless. Thicket Beans are very cool. On Oikos there's some mention that they think the beans are fine without hybridization.




Me? Who here wants to spend a few thousand years slowly selecting for larger beans (maybe decades or hundreds, but you get the point), disease resistances, cool seed coats and beans that are worth more in markets than common beans.

Actually, you could probably sell these beans for less in markets than regular beans if you crossed them and got domestic sized beans, just because they're less labor intensive with planting them, then letting them grow for three years and planting more afterwards. Selling for less means more people would probably buy your crop.



Runner Beans are perennials zones 7+.


I'd rather not have a perennial bean that has no adaptations for a temperate climate.



I mean its cool sure. But, it will be very short lived and probably unhealthy. Zone pushing Scarlet Runners - sure they're hardy to Zone 7 and I'm in Zone 8b. But, they don't like humidity nor high heat.

Common beans are always going to be inferior to limas here as well.



I feel like trying to make a common x runner hybrid that can handle things here and be a perennial would be a waste of time. Selecting for an annual type would be better and less likely to give me issues down the road. Just gives me a bad feeling that I'll end up with a disease vector that doesn't do well.




Phaseolus polystachios, is very hardy and well adapted to these climates. And it's already a perennial in these climates.


Root structures are nuanced towards certain temperate, mountain ranges, tropical, bogs - that sorta stuff.


When people think of root structures and perennial plants they usually just want something that will survive in certain zones. I've been researching a lot of different species root structures and they're effected by stuff above ground temperatures and other factors.

Some pests also prefer certain climates.  Where these things are normally perennial - those pests aren't prevalent. Just some examples.

Nematodes for example.


Just a lot of stuff that makes me think.


I'm not meaning to discount anyone trying to make common x runner beans with perennial roots here.


It's also a fact that P. polystachios is perennial in lower zones and all across the U.S. which would be a lot nicer too.


I did a lot of research and figured that I could probably make a zone 7 hardy interspecific tomato. I'm also 90% sure that it would become weedy and be an unhealthy disease vector at some point because it's only adapted to be cold hardy. It may straighten out at some point or become weedy and die off completely.


Simply making things cold hardy isn't near enough. And I would rather not press things out that would become issues.




Strophostyles species are also very cool and closely related to Phaseolus. The Experimental Farm Network happens to have a Breeders Mix. Hayefield where I went to get another packet of Alma's PA Dutch had a PA Ecotype, The Experimental Farm Network was focusing on beach / coastal populations of the species.

Prairie Moon could have another non coastal type, they don't list where their seed is from.


So yeah. I also read that the other species that I bought from them doesn't seem to cross with S. helvola in the wild, at least the ones in their study didn't.



The P. polystachios and Strophostyles species both have temperate adaptations. One actually should get a film of sorts on the seed that helps prevent mold and fuzz on the beans.



Even if what I have is a Succotash x Runner, I would still be happy.


I'm likely to get a Lima x something at some point anyway.



I'm not forgetting about tepary beans either.

I may or may not purchase wild accessions from Native seed search next year.


Tepary beans are immune to a disease that they can infect other species with.

The disease only presents itself on other species when they're grown in certain climates.


I will select for that immunity if I'm able to here and if I'm able to screen for it / get tepary crosses.


Joseph has a nice diverse tepary mix that he helped make or pieced together himself.


I'd also get wilds from Prarie Moon - there's an undomesticated subspecies.

One wild type is from the highlands, another is from the lowlands.


One is fine without water, the other can't handle droughts. One grows up like a tall pole, the other grows lower to the ground.


Because of the differences, they're both considered to be subspecies different from the cultivated type.



There are also other wild Phaseolus species.


If anyone has seed for the type that's supposedly ground up and has a coffee taste or whatever it was, I'd be interested in that.

It's closely related to tepary beans and that's what I remember of it.



Anyways, future posts may go elsewhere on here, beans at least.



Correction: Runners like heat and humidity but uptake more water than other species.

So they will do somewhat well here, but there's a rainy season followed by a very dry one.

They do well in part of the south. Seems where I'm at isn't one of them. It rains far too much here half of the season, and then it's dry. Runners prefer to not be flooded and they dislike periods of drought. They do prefer more water than other beans.

Finicky things.



Anyways, yeah. I posted this elsewhere and copied it down here.


Again, common x Runners are very cool. I just feel like neither of their root adaptations would do well in temperate climates when it comes to pests, along with some other stuff.

I planted all sorts of Cucumis species in an area where I also planted some Vigna species awhile back.

I also tried direct sowing Capsicum flexuosum and some Toothache plant - some Jaltomata seeds near a sidewalk.


I checked my old Succotash packet for a lot number and things. Lot #1717, sell by 12-31-2019.

These were fairly true to type when I grew them the first two years.




Anyways, the Cucumis species / varieties.


West Indian Gherkin, Ethiopian Burr Gherkin, Round Jelly Melon, Zimbabwe Landrace Kiwano, South African Landrace Kiwano, Cucumis filiformis.

Borneo Jungle Cucumber, Sakata's Sweet Melon, Mother Mary's pie Melon, Tigger Melon, Collective Farm Women Melon, Hara Madhu Melon, Thai Golden Round, Madhu Ras / Rajasthan Honey Melon, Amish Melon, Kiku Chrysanthemum Melon, Cantelope Sweet Summer Mix, Xylangouro, HRseeds "Crack Melon", Crenshaw Melon, Dakota Sisters Melon, Sambar Cucumber,

Lofthouse landrace Cucumber, Jibai Shimoshirazu cucumber, Beit Alpha cucumber, Lemon Cucke, Richmond Green Apple, Dragons Egg Cucumber.



The area I planted these, the neighbors up the road. Their mother owned the property I now live in.


An electric line needed removed / cut or whatever as it ran to his place and he'd be paying our bill.


So, there's a large Thicket of sorts with bare soil because it was all overturned in one large patch.


I tossed some Purple Orach and Seombadi seeds out too. Those will both grow fairly tall and possibly spread a bit eventually.



I separated the melons and Cucumbers by a small bit of space and planted the Burr Gherkins and Kiwano in the middle section where they'll be split / cut off from, along with some wild species or whatnot.

Melon varieties and the like were also split / cut off in some mini sections.

Some melons taste different or are from different countries. So I split them that way or by usage.


I did the same with the Cucumbers.

Richmond Green Apple, Lemon Cuke and Dragons egg, were all planted close to each other.


I tossed some Pimp x Habrochaites seeds in and area there too. F2 seed.



Honestly, that area doesn't have great soil. At least not that grass likes.


So, I planted stuff that'll be fine there.



The other sides of the pool barn, I'll plant Melothria and some other species there, eventually.



These are mainly going to be crossing blocks and areas / patches allowed to reseed themselves and cross - in semi controlled manners.


I did plant some Loofa gourds in one area as well.

https://postimg.cc/SjdFKYrT

https://postimg.cc/5X6MT98P

https://postimg.cc/MvsS9ffM

https://postimg.cc/PNQh8RtM



Flowers:

https://postimg.cc/4HZLgPqf

https://postimg.cc/QB2Y6hqW

https://postimg.cc/7CzrPBs0

https://postimg.cc/62CjggHb

https://postimg.cc/CR6QqjB7

https://postimg.cc/JGkkCXZg

https://postimg.cc/14ggDFCt

https://postimg.cc/gxpn9TYX

https://postimg.cc/v4vDGtBP

https://postimg.cc/crwrbSNG


Physalis angulata, possibly. And another wild physalis.

The heat wave killed these off, I moved them so they weren't killed.


Can't remember if I've posted about these here.


The Experimental Farm Network has some fun ground cherries that they sell.


I planted some fruits and seeds in a plant bed. I believe that some animals ate some of these.


I'd like to see these spread around the garden area.

And I want to see when they naturally come up.



They're technically in a planter bed.



I placed off type seeds into a pot.





I haven't seen any Physalis topics on here.



I'd like to grow and cross Dr. Wyche's Yellow Tomatillo, with Queen Of Malinalco.


Perhaps I'd cross it with some deeper purple / purple interior tomatillo landraces and the like, as well.



Calliphysalis carpenteri, is a species that I'd really like to have.


Deaflora, sells many Physalis alkekengi varieties.

Or, Alkekengi officinarum as it's now called.

Genetic analysis stuff, revealed that those two species are more related to each other than Physalis species.

They also got bumped into their own genera.


I wouldn't be surprised if the genus was eventually split even more.


https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Lampionblume-Gigantea.html

I saw a ton of these for sale in the United States, as seeds awhile back.

Gigantea has larger fruits than most types.



https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Zwerg-Lampionblume.html

This is a dwarf variety.



https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Lampionblume.html

Some generic type.



https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Lampionblume-Fruity.html

This one's probably the most interesting. It lacks "bitterness."

I know that they got their seed from Lupinaster. He got his, from someone who collected these from a mountain somewhere in China, if I remember correctly.


So, it's not a hybrid, people didn't breed a non bitter fruit. So, that's even cooler. The species is also already cold hardy. That one could be even moreso.


The bitterness, is usually due to steroidal compounds. If those aren't present in that type, someone could cross it with Gigantea, the early variety plus some other types - maybe the dwarf for container growing.


I've always been uncertain about trying to use that species to cross into others. Most Physalis species don't have steroidal compounds. Not as much as Winter Cherries.



They also sell Physalis minima, which is from Java and some other areas I believe. Plus other fun species.


https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Sunberry.html


https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Sternkirsche--Samen-.html - different from my P. angulata


https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Aztekenkische--Samen-.html




Then they also have "Goldenberries."


https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Andenbeere-Beas-Dicke.html pumpkin shaped - Juicy / Pumpkin / Flat Shape


https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Andenbeere-Columbia-Cherry.html Created by deaflora, "cherry shaped fruit."

https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Andenbeere-Lori.html elongated - Elongated Fruit.

https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Andenbeere-Lucie---s-Big-Physalis.html big fruit - Large Fruit.

https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Andenbeere-grossfruechtig.html - Large fruit.

https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Andenbeere-Deep-Orange.html - Large fruit.

https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Neu--Andenbeere-Heitmann--Samen-.html - Early.



They also have Tomatillos of interest.


https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Tomatillo-Deep-Purple.html

https://deaflora.de/Shop/Physalis---Tomatillo/Tomatillo-Diiwwii-Of--Samen-.html


They sell some various yellow tomatillos, as well.



These are the same guys who sell multiple litchi tomato varieties and Runner x Common bean stable dwarf varieties.


When I ordered from them before, they had Phytosanitaries. I'm unsure if they still do this.


I believe it noticed I lived in the states, they had a page that said I needed a certificate.


I'm unsure if others on here like ground cherries.




Most purple tomatillos, are green underneath. It's just anthocyanin, like on tomatoes.

I don't know of any / many people trying to make deep purple tomatillos which are also yellow underneath all of that.


Yellow ones, are usually sweeter than standard tomatillos. Or have different flavors and things.



I've heard that Dr. Wyche's is nice tasting. Queen of Malinalco isn't as sweet, but it's still yellow.

I also want the Elongated trait.


Physalis angulata can typically form fertile hybrids with Physalis ixocarpa. It can also form hybrids with other species, sometimes.


Most studies where the species is crossed with Physalis ixocarpa, usually turns up fertile hybrids.


I like the deep white, with some yellowing on the flowers, compared to typical Physalis flowers.



Dunno if anyone here is interested in Physalis species.


The images, are older. Some plants had what seemed like two husk, or the inner fruit became like paper and dried up, leaving the seeds dried. Some fungus and things began to spread in those.

Also, they weren't dropping from the plants. So, those could be hybrids or sometimes hybrids can mess with some fruit and calyx development in Physalis species, pollen issues and the like.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10u3DHcwj8CL_VaWPFZ8hLQVzebXsqIIK64llSJ8CiOg/edit?usp=drivesdk

Figured I'd share my Google drive document here.

Curcubits, a lot of the things listed there, I haven't purchased yet.




The wants are outdated, but they're probably still things I want.

The Seed - Nursery page, is just sites listed on the document or places I recommend.


Solanum, is basically Solanum species in general. If I got a ton of Kangaroo Apples, I'd possibly make a separate tab just for them.



I'll be slowly updating this.


I usually clear out old stuff and copy my template over.


Then I still have ones from previous years that I can look back on.


This doesn't work well with hybrids or crosses. I'll probably make a page just for those at some point.

Wild Tomato crosses, I won't keep a ton of records of.

Unless there's some really cool specimen.


Others can use the template if they want.


Or share how they keep their records.

I found some Chayote seed.

I also found Gynostemma pentaphyllum, being sold as plants by the same seller.

Jiaogulan. I noted its leaves looked like a Cucurbit.


It has saponins, comparable or identical to Panax ginseng.

These were seemingly first found when trying to identify the "sweet component" of Jiaogulan.

It's known as Amachazuru, in Japan.

It's a perennial, hardy to USDA Zone 8B.

It was encorporated into Chinese Traditional Medicine - within the past 20 or so years.

It isn't from Central China. It's from mountainous areas, and was only locally known until somewhat recently.

Local residents from where it's native, call it the immortality herb. Because elderly people there, seeminly use it frequently.


It mostly grows in forests, thickets - roadside mountain slopes.


Strictly medicinal seeds, sells seeds / plants from Japan. Sourced from there.

So, it's probably technically native to multiple places. Or, since there's 17 or so species in the genus, they could be confused with one another.






Cyclanthera pedata. Caigua.


I noted that the first mentioned species, has very similar leaves to Cyclanthera.

With the Cucurbitaceae, some closely related species, or ones in clades - usually have leaves or other traits which set them apart.


Not only do the leaves look similar, they both seeminly lack bristles.

Cucumbers, squash and watermelon have those.

Melothria scabra doesn't. Nor does Caigua or Jiaogulan.


Melothria scabra has yellow flowers. They're put off on small flowering parts - usually on single areas.

Jiaogulan and Caigua, both put off flower bracts. Much like tomatoes don't make a single stem, which would then have a single tomato.


Caigua and Jiaogulan, both have pale white - to slightly greenish flowers. They're small-ish.



Now, this doesn't mean anything.

They could just be distant relatives or unrelated.


One genus is from Asia - the other to the America's.



But, me being me. I'd like to grow them side by side - dissect them a bit. Compare their flowers and things.


The largest difference. Jiaogulan has small black - dark green fruits. They're rounded.

The plant is used medicinally.


Caigua, has larger fruit. They're edible.



I'm possibly going to be growing Jiaogulan next year.

I like interspecific hybrids or just growing close relatives side by side.

Cyclanthera pedata, obviously isn't related to some other commonly cultivated Cucurbits. You can open them up and tell that much. They remind me of gel-less Bitter gourds.

Figured that I'd post some flowers and things on here.

https://imgur.com/a/f4VUqpI


The Helianthus, seems to be a species native to Mississippi

Helianthus resinosus - maybe?

Or Jerusalem artichokes. Maybe even Helianthus verticillatus.

Dunno.


Pluchea camphorata and Conoclinium coelestinum are some of the things being visited by bees and things.

Ipomoea lacunosa and Mikania scandens - I collected some Ipomoea lacunosa seeds so far.


I've collected seed from the Helianthus species as well.


It seems to be a perennial species, I live around swamps - close to Jackson.


Most of the seeds that I collected, was from plants up the hill, harder to access than I'd like. They were all mostly in the same area, spread out a bit underneath some trees in close to full shade.


I used a penny to show how large some of the flowers are.


I did plant them all outside. Lot of seed, and because it's a local thing, I can always go out and find some more seed if those don't do anything.

Are woodland sort of crop areas for berries considered gardens?


For berries or fruit trees, maybe mushrooms?


https://imgur.com/a/FO0ZKCz


I seeded the mentioned Helianthus seeds, some sort of Oenothera species seed (pretty small things), Ipomoea lacunosa seed (towards the wooded areas border), Callicarpa americana seed, a ton of Sabal minor berries and maybe some other things that I possibly forgot.


Some flowers and things, haven't produced seed yet.


The Helianthus species could kill or harm some other things. I don't know yet.


This is basically a little test.


I grabbed a lot of seed from different plants and things. Different Helianthus specimens. All the same species, but yeah.


I have noticed that a lot of species which don't flower in their first year, or are seen as nuisance weeds or don't flower until they're tall.

They can have a tendency to be eradicated.


Some neighbors have some fun Alliums growing in wooded areas along with some Oxalis things and the like. They aren't inner connected to our woods.

Roads and things seperate forests.


Plus they have more oaks and things like Tulip trees. I'd like to get seed from those, and let them flourish over here.


There's oaks and some maples here and there over here. But, it's mostly pines.

I see that some areas are starting to get more Oaks and Carya species spreading around.


I'm personally not a huge fan of pines. I've seen a ton of squirrels around here, plus deer.

Deer seem to eat the ends of Beauty berries and eat the berries, along with the leaves where the berries were.


My Phaseolus polystachios seedlings are still alive. Still seedlings. They're stunted.

They're also seeminly native to Mississippi. But I am aware that I don't have anything close to a local ecotype.

I may try and let it grow in the mentioned area.


These used to be a widespread species. Unfortunately, they're also vines.

In my opinion, vines get treated the worst out of anything else.


Ipomoea lacunosa is also hard to find at times.


There's a bunch of Smilax vines that grow here. But, they also have huge thorns.



I'd like to plant a Kentucky Coffee Tree seedling towards the entrance of this little area. Next to the opening, dappled shade / partial shade.


Since it's an opening, I can plant things on either end.


I'll like plant Poncirus trifoliata - Flying Dragon seedlings, Asimina obovata and maybe some other things over there.


I'd ideally like to grow Poncirus trifoliata again, the standard type.


I also want to plant Medlar, plus Crataegus mexicana, plus maybe some Mayhaws and Persimmoms plus other things.

Medlar may be able to cross with Crataegus species to some extent.

Moving over some North American disease resistances seems like it would be fun.

These would be grow a bit further out from Poncirus and other things.


Growing Osage Orange in the same outer part of the wooded area, alongside Che seedlings.

I'd also like to try that out.



In the opened up area, some neighbors made the area to help deal with moving torn out shrubs. And whatever else in the future. Just toss things over there.


There's something that probably should've been burned or dealt with in another way over there, a front deck or whatever.


I believe there's still a burn ban. And, the thing was rotting so it needed to go. Cracked and made noises when you'd walk on it, it was black and dry rotting.

It didn't break when moved. But, it's now covered in dirt and things. Plus it's next to a rotted tree. And now piles of torn out shrubs and branches and things.


So, there's that. I'm somewhat concerned about nail and things.


As things rot - this is treated wood, I may see if I can't put on some gloves and remove some metal or whatever else.

I don't think I'd step on anything and it would all be in the same spot / I won't walk there.



Anyways, I'm not sure if it's obvious from the photos, but that's a slope.


I'd like to plant Pawpaws and things down there.


It's where I tossed branches and things over top of the rotting tree.

Originally things were scooped up and tossed into piles.

I freed some space up, seperated leaves and pine needles, some loose soil and things - tossed actual branches into piles down there.


Again, those may break down faster with being on top of something that's rotting.


Planting Pawpaws down there, for one - it's a big enough slope that water will flood down there, from the upper areas.


So that's some water. And this whole particular wooded area seems a lot like a Thicket. Some areas are just very open.


I'll also plant out Asimina parviflora if those ever germinate.


Duguetia lanceolata has a seed coming up from the soil. The seed is pretty hard. Does anyone know if I should try and break it somehow?


Duguetia peruviana, I'm not seeing any germination yet. The same goes with a Rollina and an Annona. Plus some other things.


I'd also like to try growing Decaisnea fargesii around this area, somewhere.

"Are woodland sort of crop areas for berries considered gardens?"

I would call those food forests.

Alright thar helps.

I haven't tried one of these before.


If I get anywhere with this, maybe I'll start a food forest thread.


To my understanding, I can probably push zones in either direction, because forest roots and leaf litter and branches, insulate roots of things and hold in moisture to some extent.


Plus they shade things. Which also means frosts won't do much to roots, and some things would act as a cover to insulate plants from cold / heavy winds and things.



My Pawpaw seedlings, are from seeds in Pennsylvania that I got online.

So I'm not considering growing the A. triloba in full sun.


Akebia and things may work in the shade.

Others will be just outside of the wooded area.


I'll have to make sure things don't become invasive, I'd imagine.


Or tell others about it, just in case.


Works well as a hybridization block too.

Che and Osage Orange supposedly cross freely.

So that's a possible future crop, larger edible fruits and seeds.

Normally the seeds are difficult to remove due to saponins and things.


The seeds can be roasted like popcorn or squash seed.


Technically, one species is a Cudrania and the other is a Maclura.


Some people want to merge the plant genera.



An even smaller Pawpaw tree, with large fruit and things is probably possible to create.


Alongside Poncirus trifoliata, I'd also like to grow Citrus australasica next to or near it.

Along with other relatives once I make a superior citrus. I've read that Microcitrus, is a subgroup that the Finger lime belongs to.

Poncirus belongs to another group, apart from the Kumquat group, and the lemon one.


Tropical growers told me that crossing species from different groups, is fine. But, mixing them altogether can create infertile plants.


Finger limes are hardy to around zone 8a.

They grow 6 - 25ft. Pots will produce smaller plants.


These aren't large trees compared to most commercial Citrus.

Flying Dragon, Poncirus could produce a smaller statured tree.

I'd prefer something larger than Flying Dragon, myself.

I'd probably keep the Finger Limes shape, and the "caviar" trait.

And select for disease and cold hardiness.


Zone 8a, is very hardy for a wild citrus. It likely has different cold tolerance genes than Poncirus trifoliata.


If Meiogyne cylindrocarpa germinates, I'd like to grow it over there as well. It probably grows to a larger height.

I'd assume that types from Australia are hardier than others.

I'll grow them in pots until I get seed from them.


Decaisnea fargesii, Meiogyne cylindrocarpa and Citrus australasica, have similar looking fruit to an extent. I'd imagine that they'd look nice grown side by side.



Either way, I may make a thread about this stuff if all goes well or if anyone else shows an interest.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-10-06, 12:18:08 PMAn even smaller Pawpaw tree, with large fruit and things is probably possible to create.

Maybe a triloba/parvifolia cross would get you the shortness you want?

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-10-06, 12:18:08 PMAlongside Poncirus trifoliata, I'd also like to grow Citrus australasica next to or near it.

Along with other relatives once I make a superior citrus. I've read that Microcitrus, is a subgroup that the Finger lime belongs to.

Poncirus belongs to another group, apart from the Kumquat group, and the lemon one.


Tropical growers told me that crossing species from different groups, is fine. But, mixing them altogether can create infertile plants.


Finger limes are hardy to around zone 8a.

They grow 6 - 25ft. Pots will produce smaller plants.


These aren't large trees compared to most commercial Citrus.

Flying Dragon, Poncirus could produce a smaller statured tree.

I'd prefer something larger than Flying Dragon, myself.

I'd probably keep the Finger Limes shape, and the "caviar" trait.

And select for disease and cold hardiness.

This is really simply personal advice, but I might suggest selecting AWAY from those finger limes that have brown when ripe fruit. The fact that their "caviar" is pinkish tinted can be nice, but I remember that, the one time I found a package of finger limes for sale in a market, I almost didn't buy it because there was a brown one in there, and I assumed that one had gone rotten and would soon spread to the rest of the package. 

[/quote]

One tree I might consider for a food forest, if I had the room, is Yellowhorn, (Xanthoceras sorbifolium), since it is supposed to produce nice flowers AND edible seeds. 

Brown when ripe may be bad then.

That's fine with me.


Yellowhorn, (Xanthoceras sorbifolium) - seems to be the sole member of its genus. It's in the same family as horse chestnut, maples, ackee and lychee.


Species being the only representative of their genus, usually indicates that there used to be other relatives which are now extinct. Making that a fossil species.


It seems like that species prefers a sunny location.

I do want to gather tulip poplars as well, they can can grow in some shade. Some neighbors have them. They look nice.


Sometimes I see Magnolia grandiflora grown as an ornamental. Or just seeded in random open areas.


I've also read that it probably had a larger range than it used to.

And that it has a lower fertility rate compared to species found on different continents. They prefer to intake pollen or whatever from other trees. But, they're usually not found in large stands or whatever.


Which could mean that the low fertility indicates a bottlenecking or something similar.

I don't know of a lot of things that eat their berries or even pollinate them, unless there's other flowering trees and things underneath or around them.

Plus the species prefers open areas, grows slow and its limited numbers in areas could mean that many things don't know to look for its berries or interact with it much.



Tulip trees, will grow in shade, they get nice flowers. They usually die in shade, at some point. They're pioneer species and make space for forests.


There's supposedly two species, one is from China, Vietnam (I'd consider island populations to be another species) and one from North America.

Both species have semi evergreen "varieties", found in warmer areas or specific locations. Types in Florida have longer taproots and handle drought better.


They're in the same family as Magnolias. Obviously they're less widespread than Magnolias and probably had more relatives at some point. There's actually fossils of relatives.


Pawpaws are also in the Magnoliales order. Magnolias and Liriodendron / Tulip trees are in that order - but their family on has two genera. Granted, Magnolias have over 200 species in their genus.


I figured something like that was the case because of the leaves and some other features.


Magnolia acuminata could be fun to grow and see if any hybrids can form. It also only grows in sparse locations, but it prefers to take in pollen or whatever from other trees.


There's a "Japanese Magnolia" in the yard as well. I am interested in attempting to pollinate it with a neighbors Magnolia grandiflora.


I sort of want to breed a Magnolia with faster growing long lived species.

Those seem to be the most successful species in Asia. And, I believe that without human intervention, our native types are going to hit a dead end.

Which that happens. Sure.




I've also considered a A. triloba x parviflora cross like you mentioned.

I'd prefer an intermediate sized plant. It may help with saving space, or breeding a purely ornamental hybrid.

I still want a type that's pollinated by beetles. But, I'd be interested in medium sized trees - Malus, Lemons / Oranges, Pawpaws and other things. I've seen Dwarf Pomegranates as well.


There's also obviously Dwarf Palmetto - related to taller relatives with which it can hybridize with.


Plus there's the Nanking cherry. It's closely related to some North American species.


I believe that medium sized trees or shrubs, are more superior to large or small ones.


They also reach maturity faster from seed, usually.


I'm also interested in grexes. Tree ones.


Some research reveals that Apple, pear and other grexes were more popular at some point.

With Asian pears, there are still mixes and things.


Tree breeding takes a long time.



Dwarf trees and things, would be great for just walking outside and grabbing some fruit from a small tree.

Medlar and things like Pawpaw, you don't just grab off a tree. But they're compact and convenient if you can make dwarf types.


And, most people don't need entire trees for themselves.

Maybe a few small ones / populations in a small area, fitting a grex. Different ages of trees - planted at different times.


Not grown side by side - intermixed with other things.


With the Trifoliate Orange, I'd also like a small tree or shrub that's also cold hardy and can be sent to others in the United States.


Chicago hardy fig, is already pretty short. There are actual dwarves as well.


An interspecific fig grex would be fun to grow - especially alongside Pawpaws, since they both attract flies and beetles or they can.

Figs lack any real pollinators in most areas. I've heard that some things can sometimes pollinate figs.


Plus fig wasps aren't everywhere.


There are species native to Africa and the like - bonobos and things eat their fruit.


There's also Avocado relatives which are dwarves and resistant to some newer diseases. And temperature species.


Growing smaller trees or shrubs close together, can be fine if they're not closely related.


These smaller trees, also won't produce a ton of shade.


Which means that they make better trees in mixed plantations.

I'd still recommend shrubs, berry ones and growing related species in nearby forests where related things are harvested.


Bananas could also be a fun woodland breeding project. Select for smaller seeds and make pink Bananas or grexes which are more disease resistant.

I've been researching some Banana relatives which are native to South America and Central America.

One species is from Honduras and parts of Florida and some warmer states. They're pollinated by bats, which also use the flowers to make nests - or the leaves.


It's probably possible to goad related species into pollinating Banana flowers, or attracting other things which are pollinating other species anyway.


Bananas actually prefer woodlands. They are less disease prone, prefer shade and they intake nitrogen and things from tree liter.



I could probably work on breeding cold hardier Bananas as well.



Not all of these would be woodland trees. But, figs can handle shade or full sun - especially if hybrids are involved.



Either way, this probably doesn't fit the garden topic.


Just future plans that will take awhile to get up and running.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2023-10-06, 09:20:39 PMPlus there's the Nanking cherry. It's closely related to some North American species.

I've heard good things about the three new cultivars of white fruited Nanking Cherry, whose fruit are supposed to taste better than the standard red one. I was pretty close to ordering some for my own yard in the spring, until I realized that, between the lack of space, the lack of sun, the time it would take to go from saplings to trees old enough to bear fruit and our horde of squirrels, chipmunks and birds would have no trouble eating any fruit they produce long before it was ripe enough to pick for our own use (I was able to enjoy the peaches from my tree for maybe one or two years; then the  moment the trunk and branches got thick enough to support a squirrels weight, every single one would be yanked off and have itself chewed through to get at the kernel by them while they were still hard and green*,) I'd never see the benefit from them.

ASSUMING Sacred Succulents gets any more in, like they said they might, I might give another shot to their Himalayan Mountain Ash (actually, a form of Sorb Apple). The first two saplings did BEAUTIFULLY here before the gardeners weed whacked them down (the third and last they left alone, but that one never really took off and died after about a year.) But that's a big "assuming" (if they're so far behind it is taking them six or so months just to get around to filling a basic seed order, getting something as time sensitive as a living tree is probably hopeless.)

And since I am in a climate that can take it, I'd contemplate adding a Japanese Flowering Ume/Mei plum, (Prunus mume)......IF I could find an example of the rumored ones that are sweet enough you can eat them RAW (as opposed to the standard kind, which you have to pickle into umeboshi or make into plum wine to consume, neither of which I like.)

In terms of shrubby berries, since you are 8a (as opposed to my 6b) you are probably JUST on the upper border of being able to grow Portuguese crowberry (Corema album)which is in the heather blueberry family. Not sure how they taste, but people do eat them, and there was someone who had seed on Etsy (whether they can be brought in I don't know, I got mine, but Customs has gotten a lot better since then.)

*Okay, the peaches were tiny, and not all that tasty (Hiawatha is usually grown for either its ornamental qualities of having purple leaves or for use as a rootstock than for its fruits.)but they were at least MINE.   

I have been a bit concerned since I'm roughly an hour or so from Jackson - 40 ish minutes.

Some USDA maps say I'm Zone 8b based on my address.

Some of them are weird and say 8a.


Most years according to people here, it drops down to the 20F degree range at the lowest, but every few years there's a light frost.

And people grow Elephant Ears in swamps and things which I guess don't freeze over. They're invasive in this area.

Some neighbors had to burn their escapees.


Plus some zone 9 plants are grown as perennials here. A big frost killed some neighbors old shrubs and things - people said they'd never seen it this cold, the winter we come here - of course.



Either way, I have been taking an assumption that this could be closer to 8B like some maps say. It's hard to say with how everything is.


The roads were frosted over and people were banned from driving because they don't have salt trucks down here. Or encouraged not to do so. People were crashing and everything. I wouldn't even call what was on the roads, frost. I think it was only frosted for less than a day.

But then again I'm more used to that stuff.



I'm a little bit worried about growing some Prunus species and other things.


I also can't grow some types of blueberries and things.


Cherry trees require "Chill Hours." Some sour cherries are out, I can't grow them.

I prefer sweet ones anyway, and I also prefer not to grow Self compatible types.


Royal Lee, requires 300 chill hours. It can tolerate 200 chill hours and grow in Zone 10a as well.

Not self fertile - can be paired with Royal Minnie to assist with pollination.


Royal Rainier, only requires 400 chill hours.

Lapins, Bing, or Black Tartarian - recommended companions, as it's not self fertile.

"The fruits are large yellow cherries with a red blush which is not very common among cherries."



I've also been interested in flowering cherries from Japan.

Katsura trees are on a list of things to grow as well, just because they're technically living fossils. Two species in their genus, are from Japan.

Their genus is also the only member of their family that's still alive.


There used to be relatives all across the United States and elsewhere, at some point in time.


The trees supposedly smell like caramel when their leaves begin to drop.


I've been thinking up an area, of where nicely scented trees and nice looking trees along with a pollinator garden, are all around each other. Maybe I'd include Gardenias and Magnolias in that sort of place.


Make a nice relaxation spot.


Prunus emarginata and Prunus pensylvanica, are in Prunus subg. Cerasus.

That's the same subgenus as some flowering cherries.

Prunus serrulata and Yoshino cherry (Yoshino is a hybrid complex - some are made up of multiple species, more than two) - they'd be in than subgenus along with many other Japanese species.


Prunus cerasus and Prunus avium are both in this group as well. The sour cherry and the sweet cherry. Those two have many hybrids with one another.


Prunus maackii and Prunus serrula are also in that group.

They have really nice looking bark.



Now, Prunus emarginata - can be found in California and all sorts of places.


So, it's heat hardy and would probably do well over in Mississippi as well.

It's as supposedly crossed with Prunus avium, but their offspring has a low fertility and produces very few fruits.


To me, that's saying that they're fertile with one another and can produce offspring.

But one parent is very inedible.



I could probably create a more heat hardy Flowering or fruiting cherry tree.


A flowering one is very likely since I could have something nearly sterile and still have it produce flowers.


Also, diseases may eventually spread to flowering cherries and things or vice versa.


There's also only about two members of that subgenus, native to North America.

So, if these were ever separated into genera or whatever. That means there isn't a ton of these left, group wise.



Going back to the Nanking cherry.

It's in the same section as plums and things rather than cherries.

And then it has more subsections.

It's related to Prunus pumila from North America.


That is an interesting one.


There's a hybrid of it, with Prunus cerasifera. Which that one is from Europe and parts of Asia.

Prunus × cistena - the purple sand cherry. I bought a plant in Pennsylvania. It produces berries when pollinated - seems fairly fertile and you can grow out the seeds and obtain plants.


Lives about 20 years. But, because it makes edible fruits - it will likely self sow if you let it.


Prunus cerasifera has a hybrid with Prunus mume, called Prunus × blireiana.

Prunus spinosa, also seems related to Prunus mume and cerasifera.


Prunus pumila is in the same subgenus but not section - as Prunus cerasifera.



But, Sect. Microcerasus has Prunus pumila and Prunus tomentosa, the Nanking Cherry in it.



Using the Purple Leaved Sand Cherry to try and cross over to Nanking Cherry, may be fun.


I've also been wanting to try and cross Black cherry / chokecherry, over to other groups of things.

Even over to flowering types.


For one, I would like some disease resistant trees.

And ones that can self sow to some extent. I'd also still like large trees.


Nanking cherries almost always all taste good. And they fruit in a small period of time from seed.


I know that Beach plums can cross over to a lot of relatives, readily if their flowering times overlap.


Those could be fun to grow here too.


Either way I'm probably off topic.

https://permies.com/t/40/139798/Garrett-Garden-Seedlings#1995460


I've been posting some images and other things here.

Not quite garden stuff either.


I've been cleaning out some wooded areas and picking things up.


When the previous land owner got old, I'm fairly sure that her kids and whoever just chucked things that couldn't be maintained anymore or weren't kept up with.


Seems like she and some others may have liked frogs.

https://imgur.com/a/boLZ8Na

These may be roots from this species.

I was tossing sticks into larger piles - and limbs into a pile.

Box blades took out shrubs and things - I found these but not on or near any shrubs.



The flowers seem large to me. Didn't look like Jerusalem artichokes to me either.

It seems like I'm a month behind on starting tomato seeds.

I was doing some other things lately.


So, new climate. Forgot whatever.




This means that I can probably start things outside. It's more or less zone 8.


I'd still start them now / immediately. Not too happy with myself.



I don't have cells planned out.



I have leftover Wildling, and BH Series seeds. Plus some exserted tiger.



Growing Green Ripper, Weight in gold and Jan's. There's also Saraev M-22, Aladdin's lamp and Bowling Pin.




Those would be my standard tomatoes.


I may grow Pruden's Purple and Eva Purple Ball, I have leftover seed.





As for the oddballs: Heirloom Reviews Woolly currant tomato, Arcanum Pink Cherry, Velvet red, Woolly blue wine, woolly kate yellow, douchoua pepper tomato, silvery fir tree, livingstons honor bright, reisetomate and some others.


Some of these are oddballs, because their foliage is fuzzy. Others have odd traits.



Some lesser oddballs: Garden peach, Wapsipinicon peach, Neon Peach and Fuzzy peach.


Most of these lack fuzzy foliage.



I have old leftover seed for Wagner blue green and Black bumblebee as well. Got Purple Smudge. Misplaced my old packet.

I forgot to order Sart Roloise seed.



I'm not forgetting about the wilds either. I have habrochaites. Not the neandermato strain. For some reason I don't think I've actually grown it yet.

Wild currant tomato from Peru and Alberto shatters. Same as usual. Maybe peruvianum. I have a few leftover seed.

Lot of seed was lost when I moved.



Mostly saved seed.



I may or may not try peppers. The seasons are longer here, but eventually you get into "too hot / scorching for transplants" down here.


I know that I can get away with the tomatoes. I may be transplanting them a lot earlier than I'd usually plan on, size / growth wise. And the production may be similar to what I'd get in PA.


But, it is what it is. I messed up with this.



I can probably start the goji berries as well.


Lycium andersonii - desert goji, Lycium berlandieri - Berlandier's Wolfberry, Lycium exsertum - Desert wolfberry, Lycium ruthenicum - Black goji, Lycium chinense, Goji berry.


Yellow goji would be nice as well. Many gojis can seemingly cross pretty freely. And they are perennials.


With the climate here, they'd likely flower late in the year here, or next year.


I may try to play around with cold hardy genetics in tomatoes and things here.


And I may try out Kangaroo apples again. I have leftover seed.

I had two seed packets of Black Goji.

One, is from the experimental farm network. I believe that they got their seed from sheffields. So, the seeds could be from China for all I know.


Those seeds, are black. Or a dark brown.


My packet from tradewindsfruit, has yellow seeds, like Lycium chinese.



Lycium exsertum has dark yellow seeds, the same with Lycium berlandieri. Those are both from Tradewindsfruit.

Lycium andersonii, from Brian Laufer's online store, has sort of brown looking seed. I think it was slightly larger than the other species seed.



I also planted Physalis crassifolia. Plus pierce Lester ground cherry. Hopefully the ground cherries from last year, from this area or ones I tossed out to let them grow, return this year as well.




I still have cannibal tomatoes, and a few species of eggplant. I'll be doing those rather than peppers.


I could probably still get away with peppers. I'll just get some from the store this year.




I found a few scant leftover wild tomato seeds. Besides habrochaites, there's two or so seeds in some packet.


I'm probably going to sow them in the ground, and see what happens.


I found leftover seeds from Habrochaites x Pimp F2 and yellow pear shaped plants coming from one of j&l gardens Peruvianum or whatever it was.


I was lazy, didn't care for what I had and was busy with stuff at the time. The seeds over two years old now I think. Maybe.


I'd have to check on that, but I'll likely prepare an area for the seed. They're mixed together and I think that reisetomate and some things likely crossed with whatever, as well as Florida everglades.



I noted that my Wagner blue green seeds are from 2021. Sell by date is 12/21. So, those are from back when I was getting into blue tomatoes originally. Lot of old seed.


Black bumblebee was free seed.


Woolly blue wine and woolly kate yellow seem similar. For some reason I got seed for both.




I still had BH and Wilding seed as well.


But yeah. I got stuff planted.



The Lycium species should all be perennials here. There's two main Lycium species - the most popular ones. I only have one of those red ones.


I'd also like to obtain seed for yellow gojis at some point. They're considered to be edible when ripe.


Red ones usually don't taste too good.

I also sowed some seeds in a semi prepared bed.


This was a garden bed or planter bed.


I moved weeds out of it last year and added a bit of soil, since the weeds pulled a lot of soil with them. Weedy shrubs which got over there at some point.



The seeds are from Solanum carolinense. I saved a few fruits (even when ripe, they stay and mostly dry on the plant, they seem to be perennials - make long branches which lean on other plants for support).



They're very susceptible to some form of powdery mildew.



I tossed the seeds there, just so that I can fully see how this grows. There was another type of "horsenettle" back in PA. It was more of a small thing, grows more upright.



Obviously, that bed is a mess. I planted some of the peruvianum seeds in there, along with a few other things which probably won't do much. Not enough seeds for things that'll make a proper population.


I'll likely use it as a spot to grow things as experiments or things in which I don't have much seed first.



I tossed some Pimp x Habro F2 seed there as well. Some American black nightshade. Yeah.


I normally wouldn't grow a bunch of Solanums together. Maybe that spot will work as a trap crop or whatever.




I'm likely going to get Sart Roloise, I'd like to grow litchi tomatoes here.



Kangaroo apples, I planted a hybrid type of Kangaroo apple. They pair well next to litchi tomatoes.


Plus having a pollinator area, is always nice.



I believe that HRseeds has Buffalobur and things.





Solanum carolinense is toxic. Eating one fruit probably wouldn't kill me, but yeah.


Ripe fruits seem less toxic than the fruit. I mean fully ripe. Yellow isn't ripe. These don't drop from the plant, they dry up. They seem to eventually pop open.



The ripe fruits and roots can be used medicinally. I don't recommend it.


But, if you're having urine / bowel issues, or some other problems. I guess it can be used for whatever. There's less toxic alternatives out there.

Tradescantia virginiana grows out in the fields here. I think.

Some plants were up to my knees. Pretty tall. Ones allowed to grow without being mowed.


Tradescantia pallida (Unsure of what cultivar), was also growing outside here when we moved.



Some trees were cut down in a area with the Tradescantia pallida plants.


So, there's a ton of woodchips.



And there seems to be some Tradescantia volunteers. I'd assume that local animals / birds / bugs go for the flowers and seed pods.

https://imgur.com/a/Ec5sfYy



Theres some probable fennel and some sorta Solanum in there too.


I tried to plant some things there before we figured the trees were getting chopped.



Some of this could be grass.


But, I've been wanting to grow these two species side by side, because I saw a few oddly flowered plants out in the yard.


Odd plants.



Their flowering time overlaps. I saw that last year.



The native species, grows upwards / tall. It also resembles tall grass before it flowers. Likely cold hardy to some degree.



Tradescantia pallida, has large leaves. It grows all spindly, it's fairly low growing. The Purple leaves are neat.




I'd like to get a tall Tradescantia with larger leaves, so that people and myself can distinguish it from grass. Maybe a few overtones of purple here and there. Growing upwards / tall.



And maybe having it with a better cold hardiness / more varied flowering time.



I don't know if hybrids are possible, but some images on the imgur post, just before the Purple leaved plants, looked odd.

I did end up planting eggplants and other things.

Upper Volta garden egg, Cannibal tomato, Solanum macrocarpon, Solanum lasiocarpum, Black beauty eggplant,Solanum stramnifolium - some hybrid kangaroo apples.

Planted those at around the same time as those other things.



I also decided today, to try and direct sow some peppers.


Mostly C. annums. I've realized that they can do well in Zone 8, direct sown.


Some other species. Maybe not.


Spacing may be weird. But their root system and other things should be interesting. I've always had decent luck with direct sown closer spaced plants.


I planted some Sugar Rush Peachy Striped, Aji de Colorado Alpino and Capsicum flexuosum, into the same row.

Or scattered row.



For a middle row, Murasaki, Perfect Sweet Italian Swarm Pepper and Mountain Roaster.


A third row, Capsicum exile (could be an incorrect name, got it as free seed before), Dwarf Aji Charapita and CGN 20800.



I seeded some others in another area, less seed. Alpine Poblano, Lofthouse Sweet Pepper Grex, Cañoncito and Doe Hill.


Less seed due to it being a smaller area.



If I need actual pepper plants, I'll buy some.


I don't fully expect these to do well, but this being USDA Zone 8. Some of these will likely be able to germinate, grow and reproduce.

I already have direct seeded tomatoes coming up. Including S. peruvianum, habrochaites and some hybrids.


The ground should get hotter before everything else does.


I believe that there's ample time to at least get some pepper production. I'm not in Texas or anything, but I had a "sure why not" sort of moment.


If it works, it works.




I've had some other ideas as well.

I won't get into Rubus suavissimus. I'm almost 100% not growing it, not this year. I'd need to source seed and whatever else.

Trifoliate Orange and Lemons, the same. I've been wanting to cross and grow a Lemon with trifoliate orange.


Decaisnea fargesii is another.



But, the important ones I'll be growing.

Mexican Sour Gherkin, Blue Butterfly Pea, Mandarina Lemon Balm (Maybe), Orangelo Thyme (Maybe), Limoncello Lemon Balm (Supposedly more like Lemon than lime), Blue Spice Basil and Red Roselle - which could possibly be hardy here.



And what else. Rhus typina. Staghorn Sumac. And possibly whatever is growing locally here.


Raindanceseeds is currently offering Rhus typhina, integrafolia, ovata, aromatica (two types or variations), trilobata.

I'm not getting all of those. Not this year, maybe they'll offer them again.



Two of the things I've mentioned, are Vining plants. Then there's some low growing, perennial to annual herbs.

All sorts of things, different families or genera.



These would be for drinks. Mainly.



I am going to be trying out an experiment.


I decided to try some old something lemonade, pink lemonade. From the store.

Drank it when I was little. It's a pink powder.


I'm not a huge fan of the lemonade and things found in stores. Dunno what it is about them.



I'd also like to mention. I'd be using Rhus species as lemonade or a lemonade replacement. It likely doesn't and never will taste exactly like lemonade.


I can probably grow lemons here. I'd still want to try and breed a cold hardier, seed grown Lemon.


And I'd prefer not to use ones from the store.



I've simply been hit with "all I have to drink for the next two weeks is water, unless I buy soda, something healthy but bad tasting or something very unhealthy."

That's usually what the options are. Healthy drinks found in stores like fruit juices don't have much filler / other things in them.

Or the healthy ones have sugar added to them - all sorts of stuff.



I'm probably better off making drinks at home.


So, I've listed quite a few things which can be dried.

Some of these are used to make decent tasting teas.

Lemon Balm can be added to smoothies, lemonade and other things.


Red roselle is used in quite a few drinks.

Blue butterfly pea flowers can be added to most teas, probably forms of lemonade as well.



The mentioned Rubus species would be nice. It's leaves can be used as a nice tasting artificial sweetener.

It also produces blackberries. You'd just use the leaves in small amounts, I'd assume.


You can also sort of prepare Rhus species, to make a powdered extract.


The same goes with blue butterfly pea and these other things.

You could make a "tea blend" that tastes akin to lemonade.



The Mexican sour gherkin - or "Cucamelon." I've had them before.

They don't taste much like cucumbers. There's not much sweetness, but there's a sour taste.



I've been thinking up ideas for the species and it's fruit.


They're very watery and small, hard skinned.

It's probably possible to make a little press, and juice these.

I don't think you'd need a lot of these, but I think they'd mesh well with these other things. Plus they'd impart some water content.



You probably couldn't dry it.


You could add strawberries or something else. I'd do those as specialties, because they aren't as healthy.


I myself, would likely combine maybe a few things like strawberries, mixed with the artificial sweetener rubus.


That way you're not intaking too many sugars or too much of an artificial sweetener.


Diabetics and the like, would likely prefer just the artificial sweetener.



Most of these can be grown in just about every Zone.




I also decided to just go ahead and get Moonshadow Hyancith, Urizun Winged Bean and red noodle bean. Plus promiscuous African peas. The breeding mix from the experimental farm network.

Red noodle beans and black eyed peas are the same species if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't mind seeing some outcrossing between them.


And one of the biggest barriers in Vigna breeding for home gardeners is that they don't outcross very often. Some species can supposedly cross well enough. Well, not black eyed peas it seems.


But, it's still neat.


I also went "Why not?" with the Madagascar Mung Beans. They're from Taiwan I think. Taiwan has some Vigna species.

That doesn't mean anything. But, yeah. Diversity is nice.


Plus I planted out some Adzuki beans, just to see if they'll come up this early.


I don't know of anyone who grows them. I planted seed from Tradewinds and the Hokkaido variety.


I'm trying to use some old seed or make some seed crop.


So I did plant some horse gram and some other things as well.

Some of that's come up.

Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2024-03-15, 05:58:51 PMI also decided to just go ahead and get Moonshadow Hyancith, Urizun Winged Bean and red noodle bean. Plus promiscuous African peas. The breeding mix from the experimental farm network.

Red noodle beans and black eyed peas are the same species if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't mind seeing some outcrossing between them.


And one of the biggest barriers in Vigna breeding for home gardeners is that they don't outcross very often. Some species can supposedly cross well enough. Well, not black eyed peas it seems.


But, it's still neat.


I also went "Why not?" with the Madagascar Mung Beans. They're from Taiwan I think. Taiwan has some Vigna species.

That doesn't mean anything. But, yeah. Diversity is nice.


Plus I planted out some Adzuki beans, just to see if they'll come up this early.


I don't know of anyone who grows them. I planted seed from Tradewinds and the Hokkaido variety.


I'm trying to use some old seed or make some seed crop.


So I did plant some horse gram and some other things as well.

Some of that's come up.

As someone who has grown most of these, I'll tell you what I have learned based on my results.

I haven't grown Moonshadow specifically, but, based on my other hyacinth bean experiments, it's sort of 50/50 if you will get seed back or not. A lot of them are VERY day length sensitive, and can often need day length periods that, here, would be found in January or February. I knew of two varieties that could reliably produce seed for me (Ruby Moon and a bush type one I got from a friend) and it took me about five or six YEARS to get a third (one plant out of a mix from Ghana, plus there was an "almost" that would probably have worked in your case, but not mine, since I am two zones further north than you.) Trying four more this year (what's left of the African stuff plus two I got from someone and one I got out of some overripe pods at an Indian grocery store.)

The mungs and the azuki's you should have no problem with. Assuming Magagascar Blue is the same as the mottled seeded ones I have been picking out of bags of beans from India (and, at least from a visual POV, they appear to be identical,) that one was the very FIRST mung bean to ripen for me; harvest was all in by July (and I only started them around Mid-April). Ditto azukis, most will be ready with plenty of time.

With the horse gram, it again depends on where you got your seed. Using my black seeded selection as a barometer, about 40% of plants produced pods before the frost came, and about 20% produced far enough before that to get high quality seed. So you may want to overplant this year and then select from what you get back in future years. Harvesting may also be a bit tricky, they like to tangle themselves all over each other, and finding the pods under the leaf and vine cover can be hard, as is telling when the pods are fully ready to harvest (one advantage of my black seeded selection, I can SEE when the seeds are ripe THROUGH the pod sides as the pods yellow up.) 

You also reminded me, I have some seed for Green Roselle I should dig up and plant (I'm curious as to what the drink tastes like if you DON'T have the anthocyanins.)

Yeah, I think I got my horse gram from Ahmka seed, but the last I checked it hasn't been open.

That seed is getting a bit old.


I also planted Lathyrus tuberous. I'm hoping that they return.

They have a lot of hard to find legumes.



Didn't really get around to planting it before.


It would be interesting if this one mung bean is the same type that you've found in packages.


Those could've been off types for all that we know.


Either way. I've decided that this year is a new legume year.


The Hokkaido and Tradewinds (Packed for 2019) Adzuki beans are from over a year ago.


I planted Lotus tetranoglobis already. Another "Winged" legume. More of a thing that I want to naturalize.



There is also the Kali Black Gram that I planted. Which is Vigna mungo.


The possibly better outcrossing Vigna cowpeas and the mottled mung beans - plus the Urizun Winged beans and other newly mentioned things.


Urizun Winged is supposedly less daylight sensitive than other Winged Beans.


I'm hoping that the Hyancith bean is the same.


I'm not as concerned with the Hyancith bean. I've heard that they're a pain to prepare, and things like peas, common beans and things already exist and aren't as big of a pain to prepare. Those ones can be a bit more toxic than other legumes listed here.


I personally dislike ordering huge bags of legumes, just for a few seeds.


I probably could've tried growing some Garbanzos while I was at it. Or gotten more seed.



I'm mainly interested in seeing whether or not I can get chance Vigna crosses.


Cowpeas are probably out of the question. But I wouldn't mind some weird lucky cross.




I also have Woolly Beans germinating. They already have their first true leaves unfurled.

Volunteers. There's also some of the types from Prarie Moon Nursery, possibly one other species and a very, very small other Woolly Bean. Both types from Prarie Moon, were very small seeded. And they lack a fuzz, the vines have smaller leaves.

Smaller flowers.


I grew an inland fuzzy type from Hayefield last year as well. From Pennsylvania if I remember correctly. An ecotype.


And then, the experimental farm network's standard breeders mix.


I've heard that woolly beans outcross more than common beans.


But yeah. Lots of legumes.




The green roselle seems like fun.


Reselle is maybe hardy to zone 9. Zone 8 might be pushing it on the hardiness.


So I'm probably going to be on the lookout for hardy types.


Okra is supposedly a perennial here.

I tend to doubt them being off types. For one thing mungs self pollinate, so off types/crosses, while not unknown, are not super common either.

More to the point, the mottled appearance isn't the only way they look the same, they're also quite a bit smaller than the (already on the small side) "normal" mung beans in the bags. Plus, that packer has a pretty long rep with me of getting off type stuff mixed into their bulk legumes (for a long while, their horse gram was riddled with guar bean seeds), their mothe beans with pods of some sort of indigo (and a lot of other stuff) and their whole red lentils with (at different times) both grass pea/ really ancient type English pea seed (I'm actually growing out those old type English peas this year; they're in the cold frame now) and assorted vetch seeds in amount where there would be 20-50 of the extraneous seeds per HANDFUL taken from the bag (as far as I can tell, they have cleaned those up in the last year or two).

I wish you luck on the cowpea crosses, but, for the record, I have never HEARD of a regular cowpea and a "long/asparagus" cowpea crossing. If you look, you'll see even the seeds look different, long beans have long seeds, with a curve.

The closest thing I can GUESS to a common cowpea cross was the type I used to get out of the "Heathy Bean Mix" I could get at the Korean supermarket (hunting through those bulk bags is something I do all the time, and what I find makes up a large part of what I plant); the one I called "Owl's Eye" While the pure "Owl's eye" seemed the commonest (a whitish cream cowpea with a mottled "eye" around the hilum, there were always some on either side of that, cream with a pure brown eye and pure or mostly mottled.

My own cow peas aren't doing that great (I think only four of what I planted germinated, and I think two of those are dead now), so, if I do screw up the courage to go back into the city to hunt, I may try and get some more of the black ones from one store I call "greenhearts" (since some of them actually do have pale green cotyleons). Or maybe Iuck out and find some speckled eye ones or "Paint Splash" (like a black eyed pea, but the black part streaks out over the white surface rather than staying confined to a tight space.) in the bin at that herb shop.

It's probably too late to start chickpeas here, and the space I would have put them has been allotted to favas, so maybe next year again I start playing with my "velcros" (chickpeas with seed coats so rough they will stick to things like flannel in a manner similar to burs).

Oh, you mean smooth fuzzy bean. Yeah Prarie moon does have that...sometimes (it's a lot harder to get than the "normal" one)   

https://www.prairiemoon.com/strophostyles-helvola-trailing-wild-bean


https://www.prairiemoon.com/strophostyles-leiosperma-small-wild-bean

These two, were very small. Tomato seed sized. (Not flat)

And smooth.



One was smaller than the other, by a bit.


The experimental farm network, I grew their mix as well last year. Those were semi woolly. Then Hayefield's type from Pennsylvania had fuzz. Both were decent sized.



But yeah. It seems like I'm getting volunteers from all of them.



The black seeded Vigna appears to be coming up. The same goes with some Adzukis.

Some of these are images from different sorta planter areas.


I did plant the Lathyrus species in an entirely different bed from any other form of legume. More of a perennial bed.



The woolly Beans won't be popping up the the same beds as things I planted myself.



I also planted a few remaining Pretzel Beans. I think some of those came up. When I tried them before, they didn't come up.

The stuff which isn't here yet, those cowpeas and things will be planted a bit later.


But yeah, woolly beans may or may not have crossed.



With the long red noodle beans and the like, and the common cowpeas.

They are still the same species, one may be a subspecies. I haven't heard of them crossing, maybe ones from a subspecies or whatever ancestor from some area.


Whatever the case, Vigna species are like common beans, in that they don't outcross too much. From what I can tell.


And I don't know a lot of people who grow both of those Vignas.


The one group which may potentially be prone to outcrossing sounds like my best shot there.


Figure I'll just see what happens.


Kali Black Gram would be Vigna mungo. Which is a close relative to mung beans.


So, in terms of legumes. This year looks like fun.


Some things in other images may range from various legumes to maybe some herbs.


I sporadically planted some things here and there.

I'm mostly just going for seed, and seeing how everything grows.

Long beans are actually a different subspecies Vinga ungicuata sesquipidale

The one I referred to as the little one was leiosperma. I tend to think of hevola as the "normal" fuzzy bean, since it is the one that grows wild here (or semi wild, since they add it to erosion control mixes, it's hard to te3ll what was always there and what was sown. The edges of the railroad tracks are COVERED with it). And yes, the fuzziness of the seeds does vary quite a bit.

Yeah they don't cross a lot, but it can happen. I almost grew (and almost got seed from) something I was semi-sure was a cross between a common bean and a lima, I know someone who pulled off a common-runner cross, and there is a possibility that the "Landmaster" incident on another site came from am cross between a cowpea and a Bambara groundnut (Vigna subterrenea*) 

I'm about really to put out my rice bean seedlings (except for the wild rice beans, I'm holding those for later and will grow them separately, same as the wild mungs.)

*To abbreviate the story, someone got a mix of Bambara groundnut seeds from someone in South Africa. among those was one red seed that didn't look quite like a groundnut (while round, it looked a little too flat cross section). When the person planted those seeds, that red one was the only one that really grew, but BOY DID IT GROW (the vine from that one seed ended up covering the entirety of the side of his house, and produced several HUNDRED new seeds. I don't think he re-grew them (he said they were a pain to thresh) but I assume some of that seed is still around. 

I've tried growing Bamabaras and other tuberosus Vignas before in Pennsylvania.


That didn't go over too well.

I had two go's at common beans lately. Before I moved in PA and again when it decided to pour everyday for a month here.


Powdery mildew. Ended up going through some packets.



But, I do have some descendedants of a Runner X Common bean.


I got them years back now, from Deaflora. Got a phytosanitary thing from them.



I'm not going to try what I have left, until it's warmer / drier.


Rainy season seems to start slightly before the optimal planting time for legumes.


What I have left here, they aren't the cooler purple seeded types.


The flowers may or may not be red. They're "Dwarf" types. Hestia or whatever it's called is also a stable hybrid if I remember correctly.


I'd just like to get some Phaseolus and Vigna crosses at some point.



As for interspecific crosses, Cowpeas don't seem to outcross much with Asian species. Or the outcomes aren't viable.


So, the second best option would be a standard cowpea crossed into a noodle bean.




I don't think that I have any rice beans. Those are neat.



I'm waiting a bit longer to plant my Phaseolus seed.




Planting things very closely together, and having a ton of pollinators, seems to increase the chances of ourcrossing.


With different species it can increase the chances of diseases spreading as well.


I also ordered The Experimental farm networks Melothria pendula "breeding mix." I think it's a breeding mix, only due to the crop being grown near M. scabra.


Melothria species have male and female flowers. They're self compatible, only in the sense that they can have their male and female flowers pollinate themselves.


I'm planning on getting seed from a local type of pendula that I saw last year, and growing it intermixed with the other M. pendula, and M. scabra.


A hybrid would possibly have more vigor, sour fruit and fruits which ripen to yellow or black.



The local type isn't sour. So I'd say that it's not a garden escapee.




But yeah, I've been finding that when I grow beans together on a trellis, then plant them all out. I can usually find a few crosses.


Selecting for beans that outcross, and Vignas that outcross, does sound like fun.

I think the problem is that there is a major split in cowpea genetics, same as there is with hyacinth beans. The African populations and the Asian populations have been separated so long they have trouble re-mixing. Nearly all of the cow pea types found in the Americas are Africa based, since they came over with the African slave trade. if you tried crossing a long bean with an Asian cow pea (like one from India) it might work a bit better. I'd off you some Sky Pointers to try with (a small red cow pea whose pods grow against the force of gravity, so they stick straight up.) but, do to a bad harvest combined with a storage error, I'm almost out, and the company I got them from switched types (same as with the Owl's Eye.)

Mine rice beans tend to look even neater, since I specialize in the alternate colors (i.e. not solid red). It is, however not a crop I recommend buying randomly, even from a market. There are two major types out there, the commoner can't flower or pod here, and it takes some experience to be able to tell which you have visually.

And it's hard to find ANY alternate colors in bags anymore. Now that all of the food packers use those computerized electric eye sorters to get junk out, pretty much the only thing that gets into the bags is what is supposed to. I think my non pure tan mothe bean experiments are done, the last "scribbled" (black mottled) one I had got its top bitten off by the cat (I think) and every bag since then has had nothing but tan (I haven't seen pure black seeds in about seven years, so that's WAY past working on.) Probably the same with fresh black or white horse gram (trade color is tan, but dead white does exist), what I put in this year plus what I got last year is probably all I'll have to work with from now on.     

I haven't seen much about any cowpeas hardly ever crossing.

Or people growing the ones that split at whatever point.


I don't think they diverged long enough ago, for things to matter.

But yeah. It could just be that those rarely cross, and there usually isn't enough reason to grow both types.

And not a lot of people look for or mess with hybrids / off types. So, I think it's worth playing around with.

A Pretzel bean crossed with a long cowpea, could be interesting.

There's also cowpeas with semi purple / red pods.




I also noted, that I didn't make numbers or a chart for some of what I've planted.



2 green ripper 2 Jan's

4 wildling

4 HR Woolly Currant

2 black bumblebee 2 Wagner blue green

2 Prudens Purple, 2 Eva Purple Ball

4 Arcanum Pink Cherry

1 Fuzzy Peach, 1 Neon Peach, 1 Garden Peach, 1 Wapsipinicon Peach

4 Reisetomate

4 bowling pin

2 livingstons honor bright, 2 silvery fir

2, woolly blue wine, 2 woolly kate

2 Saraev M-22, 2 Aladdin's lamp

4 BH Series

4 Wildling

4 Orange exserted

2 Exserted orange, 2 Wildling

4 Purple Smudge



2 Douchoua pepper tomato, 2 velvet red cherry (no germ yet)

4 wild hairy tomato

4 Alberto Shatters

4 Wild Currant Tomato From Peru


12 Lycium andersonii

12 Lycium berlandieri

12 Lycium exsertum (one sprout / seedling!)

12 Lycium chinese

24 Lycium ruthenicum (4 germ, type 2), (3 germ type 2)




Type 1 / type 2, just refers to Tradewindsfruit and The Experimental farm networks seed.

The seeds were all different colors.

There's a cold front moving in, I covered some volunteers with leaves.


Volunteer beans and things. Some tomato seeds that I planted, have been coming up.


The cold front may cause it to be in the 30F range for about an hour. Or low 30s.



I moved my trays of seedlings into a protected area indoors.




I don't think it'll get nearly cold enough to damage anything.



But back to the cowpeas and long beans.

Humans haven't been around for long enough to cause anything to diverge from what I can tell.

Unless the flower structures are horribly different, then things should be fine.


Cowpeas and the like, rarely ourcross.



And, most people who grow cowpeas in their native countries, don't grow long beans - because they are basically the same thing or things.

That goes foe Asia and Africa - elsewhere.



There's also the chance that a completely different subspecies or variant was brought over when these were domesticated.


Some wheats can't cross due to ploidy counts, or there's a few barriers.



But, since there's a population of cowpeas which may have spawned from chance outcrosses.


I see no reason not to grow them near long beans, and hope for the best.



In the future, I may try and grow Holstein cowpeas and some red / purple podded ones. Sorta striped.



It could be fun. I'd imagine that you could select for larger and longer beans. Maybe larger pods.



And then the progeny would be growing near other Vigna species in my case.


I honestly don't know a lot of people who grow cowpeas and long beans in North America either.

Or Adzuki beans and whatever else.



Many of these have the exact same usages. Or they just aren't used here.


But I'll see what happens.

I also found one with a white pod (not that light greenish sliver like some of the long beans are, the same off white as a wax bean pod is), but I don't have it anymore.

And there actually IS one place where they grow both; China. In general, the Chinese will grow pretty much any legume that will grow there, if not for their own use, then for export (I have seen Chickpeas that were grown in China).

There is also some long bean out there I bumped into once (in the form of actual pods being sold, where I simply picked the floppiest, most overripe bunch I could and extracted the seed from that). I'd love to find again. Not only was it huge (not so much in length, but it was way thicker than most of them) but the pods had this odd rugose (wrinkled/bumpy) appearance to them. The only clue to identity I have is that its the only time I ever saw a black eyed long bean seed.

There are a few other cow pea quirks I'd like to find again, like the one whose pods were sweet (sort of like a sugar pea). But, of course, the downside of getting seeds by finding them in other things is you never know when, or if, you'll find another one.

And ALL off type stuff is a lot less commonly found now, since, by this point, pretty much all of the companies that pack seed for food or planting run it through one of those computerized scanners with the electric eye a few times, and that catches pretty much everything that doesn't look "standard".

I also have some ideas for some strains I'd like to work out, like the "Golden Dawn" pea (a pea line that is homozygous for the "orc" (orange cotyledon) trait, so that the inside are the same color as a red lentil. I think such a pea might be of benefit to those who eat a lot of dried peas with regards to their beta-carotene consumption. If they could do it with common vetch, I can probably do it with peas. Or "Amaidaizu", a soybean with the same "ss" wrinkled trait that makes peas become sugary and wrinkled (I have seen the odd wrinkled soybean, and think the gene might be there as well) for the edamame market. 

A sweet cowpea would be very nice.

All sorts of nice traits being mentioned.



We had a cold front. Some Canna lilies coming back, are semi damaged.


I cover the beans with leaves, they're still small.


I didn't plant a ton of them, not a ton of volunteers in the other case.




I didn't mention this, but as I was late on planting tomatoes and things, I went ahead and scavenged soil.


I got it from a plastic herb planter bed. We moved twice last year. So, that screwed a lot of things up.


Maybe had some dill and basil going.



Everleaf Emerald Towers, and some sort of sweet basil from Bonnie's plants. Plus I started some Blue Spice Basil in there as well.



I used soil in there, just because I figured it was newer soil and likely had few weed seeds.



I've now been noticing little seedlings popping up with my tomatoes. I've been going "hey those remind me of basil seedlings!"


I've now sorta went "Oh, those probably are basil seedlings."



The tomatoes and things didn't coin out since we moved so late.


Didn't use much of any basil.



Didn't remember to even bother with the basil, the planter thing, wasn't handling the move very well. Herbs were dying off and I didn't have much of a use for basil by itself.


But, it's possible that the two basil's I grew hybridized. Then there's the Blue Spice Basil, which also happened to be flowering.


But yeah. It seems like I have basil seedlings in some trays with my tomatoes and things. I'm not complaining. They'll probably be easy to thin out.





I also figured that I'd mention that everything looks fine.


I may keep everything covered tonight. It's not supposed to be quite as cold, but yeah.


I'll likely be refilling the herb bed up again, where I borrowed soil from.


I'm not used to basil volunteering in this manner. Especially these types of basil.



The Wisterias which I was worried were infected with Agrobacterium are coming back.

One is flowering a bit. Not a ton, we trimmed them back a ton. So that's to be expected.

A purple / black flowered relative, is also coming back. Different genera.



I think these would be fun to grow around redbuds.


I see a few redbuds that still have blooms. I walked up closer to one and see little pink dots. Meaning that it likely blooms in profusions.



I've never seen Wisteria till this point. I added some images of those.


The one with growth by a fence, is the distant relative. I saw it flowering.


The flowers are way smaller. Still large as far as legumes go. The leaves are glossy, and a bit different. These also flower at different times.



I don't know what species of Wisteria is here. I didn't take a far away image of the blooming one.





If I get enough basil, I may try some "companion planting" with tomatoes.

Basil isn't a heavy feeder, appreciates some shade. May be toxic to some insects / insects may not want to be near them.


Bees like basil and the like. Dunno if it would help or mess with promiscuous tomato things.



Lot of stuff here.

Some legumes which I covered, didn't like the cold weather.

Others, seemed fine.


It hasn't been consistently warm enough for everything to germinate anyway. I saw like two bean plants die off. Seedlings.





Tomato seedlings which I sowed, they're fine. Some older ones which came up prior to others, have some purplish "leaves."

But, it's getting warmer. The first official date to plant tomatoes, is March 27th. As I've said before, I'm late on things.


There's a wide range for planting tomatoes here. There's actually two seasons or grow outs of them that you can sort of do here.




I believe that my Solanum carolinense or whatever, is coming up as well. I planted some seed for the heck of it.

The seedlings, look like tomato or solanum seedlings. The stems seem red, and hairless. I tried to direct sow some Kangaroo apples around them as well. I'll probably try the same with Litchi tomatoes.



One Litchi tomato, proved to be a perennial here. I planted one, way late into the season last year. I had a few remaining seed. It's still going, it died back but it's coming back to life.



But yeah. Stuff is going.






I planted seed, a few seeds. Some cucumbers. Lemon cucumber, dragons egg. Bhutan-meets-greg.  About one mound or corner of the first two. Two for these others.

These aren't in the garden which isn't tilled yet. Bit behind on that.


Some neighbors should be doing the initial stuff.


I'd just like to get that in, so that I can plant cucumber seed and other things soon.


And I'd prefer not to have it immediately tilled, and then have to start planting in whatever.





The longer growing season, does help me out with messing up and planting things late. Well, the tomato seed. But, they're developing leaves.


The ones I planted in trays.


And I have enough tomatoes planted, that lower production shouldn't matter. Not too happy about that.


I could care less about the Gojis producing this year or not. They aren't known to produce a lot in their first year.


I did try to plant some spare seed in a spot last year.


I also moved the Litchi tomato. Why not.


If not, it gets pulled and dies. It's not looking too great. I wasn't delicate.



I also need to work on the perennial goji block. I'm not doing stands of black gojis, next to or surrounded by black gojis.


I'll be planting these different species, in different positions, all around and in between or next to different species. Some may be near their own species.


Some of these species, produce within a year. Some have very edible fresh berries.


If any of these are able to cross, then I'd assume that this would help them to do so.



Kangaroo apples and Litchi tomatoes are also hardy here. So, I have a few plans. Maybe I'll set up areas for them, and hybrid populations of whatever.


Kangaroo apple hybrids or something. Dunno.

My cowpeas are kaput (looks like it was too cold to leave them outside yet). So I guess I'll have to find something else climbing for that pot. Maybe the tinga; let the hyacinth beans have both side pots all to themselves. Or maybe I can put the horse gram there rather than the round pot I did last year (I don't know if horse gram will climb if given a chance, or it always just scrambles along the ground.) With four long pots, I have four spaces to fill. And I know I DON'T want to do wild soybeans again. Here, they're so vigorous they verge on invasive, and it looks like the seeds CAN overwinter. Plus, the local birds don't like them much) so they are a yard takeover waiting to happen. I already have rice beans and senna as permanent parts of the lawn (not due to re-seeding, but due to seeds being able to stay dormant in the soil for ages) and they are enough of a headache (the rice beans by potentially showing up were I plant other ones on purpose and messing up my selection plans, the senna because senna stinks to high heaven when you cut it or mow it over.)   

Yeah, it seems like a lot of people got that cold front.


Some of my legumes weren't happy, others didn't mind a bit of cold.


I did notice, that I forgot to mention the corn varieties.



And yeah, I planted them too close together. I want some varieties to cross.


I can grow others together, they may or may not cross.




I did the same four corners thing.


I don't plan to let cucumbers grow up them, maybe eventually. Otherwise I wouldn't have sowed them at the same time.


The first date for sowing corn here, is around a week away.



In one area, I did a few seeds of Japanese Black Sticky.

One corner, I added Dobranoc. Another, I added Gigante Hominy Self Feeding Corn Grex. And the other corner, Speckled Parching Self-Feeding Corn Grex.


A lot of the seed, are from whatever different years.

Japanese Black Sticky, was packed for 2020.



In the other area, pretty much next to this one.


Dzit Bacal Ancient Mayan, on one of the corners, mixed with Independence Corn.


Another corner, Gigante Hominy mixed with Dzit Bacal Ancient Mayan.




On the other corners, more Dobranoc, and whatever else.



I didn't plant these for production. And I planted them early.


I'll do actual corn rows when actually planting whatever.



I've mentioned some of these before. The self feeding trait, is very nice.


Then, the anthocyanin. And Sticky corn trait.


There's sticky forms of many crops, usually found in Asia. I've even heard of sticky sorghum.



So, I want to mix Dobranoc and Japanese Black Sticky. Japanese Black Sticky, has an iridescent blue color. When dry, I guess.

Dobranoc, looks a lot like Succotash beans.


Dobranoc also has earliness traits and whatever other things. It has Peruvian, Mexican and other blue corns mixed into it.


Bred by Frank Kutka.



That's just a start.





'Aonsu Pä-sakun'a'-mon Lenni Lenapi' (Lenni Lenape Blue Pulling Corn) Corn, Montana Morado.


These, are also pretty cool. One, is a native american corn.



The other is cooler to me. It has a Navajo corn mixed in with it.

It's said to be 100% Native North American Corn.


It's said to have more anthocyanin than types found elsewhere.



So, Montana Morado Maize. There's other anthocyanin types out there.


I'm pretty sure, that it's possible to make a deeper anthocyanin type of corn, using it as a base.


Dobranoc and Montana Morado Maize, are both early anthocyanin corns.


Their kernels and things look different.


I'd imagine, that crossing these corns together could be pretty fun.



As for Black corns from Peru. All sorts of types.


They're usually ground up, and said to have a weird cinnamon / bacon taste. Others went with fruit tasting hard candies. Spiced bubblegum.



I'd say that different types of or genes responsible for anthocyanin, have different flavors to them.


Purple popcorns, are prepared differently than other purple corns.

Then there's regular dents, flour and maybe sweet corns.


The flavor is different, boiling, popping. Yeah.



But, some websites claiming that Montana Maize Morado, is 100% North American or Native American.


I'd be interested, in trying out some further breeding. Dobranoc just felt like a good candidate to me.


Similar traits and all.



I may or may not, try to pick up Montana Maize Morado this year.


I could just focus on trying to mix Dobranoc and Japanese Black Sticky.


Sticky corn, may look different kernel wise as well, even with whatever other traits.



I'd want a sweet, high antho sticky corn, while also trying to pull in other nice traits.


Hearing that a lot of these corns have a spicy or fruity taste. Maybe it differs in whatever places in Peru. Or some native american ones have whatever flavor to them.


I haven't heard of a ton of purple or blue sweet corns.


I've done some thinking, and decided that this sort of corn, would be very cool.

Especially with the sticky trait. You can prepare sticky corn in a few ways, and it's pretty different from other types of corn. Mixing that quality with the sweet, fruity / spicy whatever.



I think they'd all pair well. I don't know if anyone else would be as interested in all of this as I am.



But, it's a goal.

The only difference is it sounds like you are trying to get the corns to mix (at least within the populations you selected, while I am trying to KEEP them from mixing at the moment. How well your setup will work, I can't tell it would depend on how big an area you are working with. My issue is that I am working with a space that is four feet by four feet max, and I am trying to fit four separate types of corn in there without them mixing (I've explained why I am doing this before.)

I'm not planning for ANYTHING to climb up the corn, since I'm sending all of the climbing legumes to the back patio to use the railing, and using the favas in with the corn instead. Though I just realized that my wooden contraption is sort of going to prevent my idea of sticking a watermelon plant in the dead center of the corn; I can't plant something on a space the device physically occupies! Guess I'll find somewhere else for that (I wonder if I can plant it on the edge of the area and then train it to go around the whole thing? No wait, if I did that, any corn pollen that got on the vine would end up crossing sections of the device as the vine grew, and potentially contaminate the next section.

Though that bit may be moot anyway, given how old that watermelon seed is now, it may not even germinate.

Yeah. I stuck my corn into a small area as well.


Nice to see others are doing that.



Some sources also say that waxy / sticky corn, has amylopectin.

Or that's its starch. It stains red with iodine or something. Normal corn is blue?

Dunno. But, I'm pretty sure that whatever I cross over, the kernels won't look the same.



Amylopectin, is used as a thickener. And it has other usages.


Someone else suggested to me, that if the corn had any form of a fruity or spicy / candy taste, that sticky corn is sometimes made into candies or used in other ways in Japan, and has unique properties.


A corn candy, sounds like it would be fun. I think they mentioned mochi or whatever you call it.



My issue is that a lot of corn, they don't have their flowering dates listed. Normally, you can plant some corn at different dates, and that can change up the flowering times enough.


Other corn varieties, are earlier, or whatever else.


So, I do need to probably document some of that.



I'm planning on having my cucumbers and things, some legumes sprawl out around the little area.

Legumes get the inner areas.



I'm still trying to think of the possibilities of what I could do with waxy corn. Let alone, one with weird fruity or spicy tasting things in it.


And I don't know how everything would develop with how the corn structure and everything like the different type of starch, would effect other traits.



I've also noted, that a lot of sweet corns are bland. They're sweet. I like corn on the cob.


It's not bad or anything. I like it.


But, you obviously have things like Joseph's carotene corn. Carotene has a flavor to it.


And, the carotene taste can have the same flavors that typical corn has - sweet corn.



A lot of people in Mexico, and Peru, seem to dislike yellow corn. It's sweet, and that's about it.



A high carotene waxy corn, is probably going to taste much different than a high anthocyanin waxy corn as well.


And, I'd assume that people would have preferences with taste.


Then there's the normal / standard flavors and types of corn and things.



But yeah, I've been thinking a lot more about the garden this year.



I'm also not 100% sure on how tall all of my corn gets. So, climbers may not be a great thing.


I know that the Mayan popcorn will be small. It's like four feet.


I'm not going to try planting my watermelon early.

Nor regular melons.



But, they'll be in the garden. I'm usually a fan of them, since they tend to grow faster than weeds.


I'm also planting some varieties close together in those cases as well.


Living in zone 8, gives me some advantages with growing certain crops or growing some day length sensitive varieties successfully as well.



I've also considered that a bean paste could be made using Adzukis and waxy corn.

I noticed that one of HR's Woolly Currant tomatoes, with is a Hairy Galopagos tomato or something, possibly crossed with a cherry tomato or a Currant tomato.

One of the cotlydeons is very hairy. I don't know if the phone camera is picking that up.


I don't know if it's possible to get hairy fruit and hairy leaves, or that I need hairy leaves to get hairy fruit.

I haven't really grown the hairy tomatoes from over there.



I tried a visual look next to Woolly Blue Wine and Woolly Kate.


They don't quite have that fuzz, but I can possibly use this in the future to immediately tell if this trait is present.



I'd like to try and cross a more stable woolly tomato, with another type of woolly tomato.


Livingstons honor bright, I took an image of those seedlings. And yes, I way overseeded them.


I won't use all of the seed anyway, and I still have leftover.

I doubt I'd be able to give it away either.



Those have started to turn a sickly yellow color. They're also easy to see if the first true leaves have the gene.

I don't mind chartreuse plants, but this variety is one of the only yellow leaved tomato varieties out there.


If the leaves didn't slowly turn yellow, I'd imagine the plants would just die off.


I'm planting those as ornamentals at best.



I've also wanted to try and cross them with a variegated tomato or whatever else.




The antho tomatoes are showing some blue coloration, due to the cold weather.


Antho tomatoes seem more susceptible to cold, as per usual.


Hopefully they aren't blue stemmed or stunted for their whole growing period.

Just found out OSU has a growing degree day calendar. I think this is just for Ohio but I'm sure other websites have something for other states/areas/countries.

https://weather.cfaes.osu.edu/gdd/

https://www.almanac.com/gardening/planting-calendar/MS/Jackson


I use this site. It's helpful enough.


It doesn't list some obscure plants and things.

I planted out some Feuerbohne Eureka Dwarf, and Feuerbohne Kontra Dwarf runner / common bean crosses. Stable crosses.


I'm hoping that at least one of these has red flowers.


I did a row of Maroon, Peru Cow and Jungle Limas. Plus Alma's PA Dutch.


Alma's PA Dutch is very small compared to all of these other limas.



I also planted Beefy Resilient Grey Pole beans, from a 2021 packet.


If I remember correctly, I got the seed from fellows on etsy who also happened to be selling some Borneo C. Melo and other cool stuff.


It seems like their store is gone now.


I think that these may have been a line that they selected out of the Beefy Resilient grex. Which was black mitla x something if I remember correctly.


Some blog suggested that black mitla could be a common bean crossed with a tepary, as it had intermediate features / flowers.


And that black mitla is from regions which would grow both species.



I don't know. But, I've heard that the grex tends to outcross fairly well. And the seed packet that I have, says pole. So, this could've crossed with a pole bean. I don't know.



But, I'm growing it near some of these other things. The Dwarf varieties, I gave them a bit of space off to themselves.



I'll probably plant Kentucky Wonder, Provider, Scalzo, Marvel Of Venice and Royal Burgundy - maybe Beurre de rocquencourt into the garden when it's tilled.


For these other things, they're in a planter bed. I'll either let them sprawl, or I'll get a few trellises.



I want the limas to cross. Jungle lima is said to be very vigorous. It grows fast, and it produces a lot of beans.



Peru Lima, has a cow print on it. Black spots, some black markings on a white bean.

I think there's a Holstein cowpea out there that I've grown before. This is different.

Maroon Lima, may be the same thing as Christmas Limas or similar.



Alma's PA Dutch, is a lima grown by some PA Dutch groups, I guess. There's some other PA Dutch lima beans out there.

The one I have, is the smallest lima that I've seen. Granted I usually don't grow limas. It also has a different shape than most.

Purple Burgundy seems like an odd color.



With these Limas, I also want something of a seed crop.


Last year I planted my beans late.


This year, I'm on time. At least for these ones. I really need the garden tilled. But, the planting season for beans, goes up to like August here. Limas, are likely earlier, with their last planting dates.


I'm not 100% sure if the Beefy Resilient Grey pole beans, are pole beans or not. They could be half runners for all I know. I purchased them as an extra back then.

We're pretty sure that black mitla is 100% common bean just mislabeled at some point.
Beefy resilient grex is a cross between it and guacho
None of the seed colors look like a grey and neither of the parents really climb so I think beefy resilient grey pole must be crossed with something else

The beans look more tan or light brown to me, than gray.


But I'm also assuming it's crossed with something else.


I remember reading that black mitla has an odd pheno flower for either species. And, if it's a stable variety, then any odd or incompatible genetics would have been weeded out, a long time ago.

So I've been unsure about it. I'd assume that someone would need to do proper testing on black mitla, and tepary or common beans local to where it originated from.


An f10, may not look anything like an intermediate between two species.

I believe that some squash grexes in other countries were found to be interspecific hybrids, but natural selection removed anything which would indicate that. Plus possible backcrossing with a single ancestor.





But whatever the case, it seemingly outcrosses better than other varieties.




And I've heard about guacho being the other parent.


The beans could look like a different color, non dry. But the color seems uniform in the packet. So, they did likely stabilize it a bit.


Not a lot of people properly label things as half runner either. So I'm unsure if it's even a pole bean.



If anyone is interested, I'll post updates on it, as it grows. I'm planting these pretty close to other pole beans, just to look for crosses next year.



The website and packet said gray, but they also could've meant grex? The seeds weren't really gray. Then again, the seeds were uniformly tan.


It doesn't seem like I can ask the seller, but their other seeds were correct and good.



I'm just growing them as a "Oh I forgot about these" sorta thing.

I planted Sart Roloise, Litchi tomato, Black Strawberry tomato and some other seeds today.

Pretty late for tomatoes here. It gets hot here. Otherwise we'd probably have a wider date for planting tomatoes.

If it gets too hot, planting plants directly into the ground becomes less viable. Sowing stuff still works.



So, that's a bit worrying.



But, I also got other seeds.

Free Landis winter lettuce. It's a decent lettuce if I remember correctly. I don't think it's typically meant for my climate.

Gabonese Sorrel. I've seen Joseph Simcox try these recently on his Instagram. I believe that I saw Brian Laufer selling these at some point as well.


So, I live in Mississippi now. It gets hot and humid. I figured I'd give Gabonese Sorrel a shot. I just need to make sure it doesn't spread.


Jiromaru spinach. And "Japanese Mountain Spinach", which says Swiss chard at the top of the packet, and has spinaches botanical name on the back of the packet.

I don't know if it's akin to Pereptual Spinach, that chard. Or what.


Sometimes Baker Creek likes to do that sort of trickery, haha. I'll figure it out.




Onto the legumes.

Promiscuous Peas. The packet has a fuller description than the website, or there's added details.


The peas are described as sports from Yanna Fishman's farm. Sports are usually mutants or things arising from clones - etc. If I remember correctly.


These may be more akin to probable hybrids or whatever, once you mix them together. And "Joseph Lofthouse's New Breeding Population."


I'm surprised that they didn't separate the two. Or at least grow them out side by side and then sell them together. Unless they did that, I dunno.


Not complaining.


There is also the Madagascar Blue-Mottled Mung Bean. I've planted some of that seed, near the area where I planted Kali Black Gram (Vigna mungo.) Typical Mung beans, are Vigna radiata.

I planted Adzuki beans (Vigna angularis) in that same sorta block.




The mottled Mung beans, are very, very small. There's decent sized Mung beans out there and there's small ones as well.


These, are much smaller than those.




I planted some Chinese Red Noodle long beans, next to the promiscuous Peas.


Moonshadow hyacinth, lavender queen butterfly pea and urizun Japanese.

(Lablab purpureus), (Clitoria ternatea), (Psophocarpus tetragonolobus).

Those, I planted in a different general area than the other legumes.


A bit closer to where I planted some Lathyrus tuberosus seed - which has foliage and sprouted.


Not way too far from these others. But yeah.



The south jersey hopniss, I planted even further away, closer towards the woolly beans. Their seeds remind me of pea seeds, wrinkled ones. Except they're glossy.





I've also become concerned that due to my planting some legumes early in raised bed soil, that could have made things wet and cold - killing some seed.


I didn't account for the soil mix with the early sowing and covering with leaves. Some things are still sprouting, so I think that it mostly delayed germination or a few things had beans here and there which came up too early.


I saw another new sprout earlier.




I'll be adding some images.


First, I found woolly Beans from last year, saved seed. One little bean is from a relative of woolly bean.


In the middle, you have red noodle beans / peas. Above or to the left of that, you have the promiscuous peas. And then there's the mottled Mung beans.


Long beans and African peas or black eyed peas are the same species.


Jeremy mentioned their differences, seed size and different shape. That sorta thing.


These ones in particular, have a groove or grooves / indents in their seed.



Their flowers may be different than typical Vigna unguiculata seed.



Not hearing of crosses between these groups isn't a bad thing. I usually have a little means or grouping of things, when it comes to checking foe stuff like that.


Do I know anyone who grows both of these, side by side? Do they all buy need seed each year, or do they save seed? Do they cull anything that's off-type?


Then there's the question, does anyone translate records from other countries, are those all public record.


I don't know if there's a correlation with the bean / pea size, and pod size genetics with long beans. But, those are all strikingly larger in size than cowpeas.


I do want to grow Holstein Cowpeas again. They aren't too large, even with these other cowpeas shown here.

I don't see anything that resembles their patterns here. Even in different colorations.



Some other Vigna species can cross with one another. Cowpeas, usually won't cross with the other typically grown species - maybe Bambaras or Zombi peas would work.


But, I'd assume that the same species can still cross with one another.




The second image. I isolated purple / darker seeded, but non black peas from the Promiscuous Peas mix.


I also found an outlier, with probably the largest size out of all of these. The seed coating was different from all of the others. It's rounded and plump, not just wider than the others.

The side opposite of the "eye", is white. Then the sides have red markings, and tan stripes with speckles. I didn't really see too many others like that.

Some others were simply large, long or one or just not as large. Some were this large.



I'm not doing this, this year. But, with legumes and maybe corn, I typically have a plan.


If I have a grex, I may try to separate the different colors into rows.


If something truly crossed, then the offspring shouldn't be the same color as the parent.


A truly promiscuous pea, should have a different flower structure, which seems more open, with sexual organs being exposed than others.



So, go out and look for anything that looks weird.


I'd make one grouping, with selected purple peas, taken from different purple African pea plants.


Then, plant the rest into the main grex, as per usual.



If you have a single promiscuous pea, you may run into some issues.


Mainly, things which aren't promiscuous will pollinate that plant. Then the offsprings flower structure can be messed up, or you'll have a hard time doing whatever.


I'm pretty sure that the main breeders know that this may become a large undertaking.


There is a "Seedzoo" online somewhere, which sells African landrace peas. If this goes well, I may look into getting some of that stuff.

Maybe Bambaras as well. Who knows.




Once a promiscuous population is developed and bad genes are weeded out, I'd imagine that others could just plant any old new variety or landrace into that group, and then have a stockpile of old seed, or grow the new landrace or mixture in a different field than the others.



Cowpeas seem to have the same issue as common beans, Phaseolus vulgaris when it comes to outcrossing. Closed flower structure, and a tendency to self pollinate.


Maybe this means that they'll self abort foreign pollen at times too.


But, I see no reasoning as to not grow these with long beans.



I'd assume that the potential for crossing with other species, may go up, if the flower structure is more open than usual.

Even if it's Bambaras.




There's also the very rare chance that someone could end up with a Vigna x Phaseolus, if there's two groups of wide population hybrid groups with open flower structures.


Since I've been growing a few different legumes, it's become apparent at how closely related Vigna, Strophostyles and Phaseolus are.


The cotlydeons are very similar, even if some species have those underground / above ground.

Root structures may be a massive barrier, if a cross ever took.


Lotus tetragonolobus, and Lathyrus tuberosus - I'll be posting seedling images of those.

But, they're strikingly different than those other species, even at early stages. Lotus tetragonolobus, has the cucumber looking cotlydeons.


Standard garden peas, also look different than the three mentioned genera.



I do, still want some runner / common bean early cycle hybrids, again.

The last time that happened, I had some issues. Some seed was wrinkled, but still viable. More prone to rotting or molding in storage. It looked like dead seed, but it was still viable.


So, when looking for hybrids, I now save seed from dried / dead seed, still plant it - away from other things.


I lost the remaining hybrid seed in the move. I planted Succotash and Runner beans up the same trellis and let them climb on one another for a few years.



Common beans seem to have some varieties which are simply prone to outcrossing. Mixing those with runner beans, could be fun.


I might get runner bean seed from the supermarket again. Dunno.


It was rainy last year and they rotted or got sick. It stayed dark for months. No plants were happy.


Then the powdery mildew came.



Typically Vigna and Phaseolus have vastly different flower structures, without taking the closed flower structures into account.

Open flowered Phaseolus species, tend to reject pollen from all other species, while closed ones can accept that pollen.


Tomatoes seem that way as well. With SC and SI species / varieties.


I won't say that I haven't been interested in the possibilities of creating interspecific grexes of Phaseolus and Vigna mixes, near one another with open flower structures.


That removes one barrier, I think. They hardly ever outcross within their own species.



I've been wanting to combine a few perennial Strophostyles species, with different populations of Woolly beans as well.

Just due to the possibilities.



I've also noted that F1s and even F2s can die off randomly. So, they'd likely die with any competition in the wild. Or they'd be absorbed into the same population.




That's all dream goals, pretty unlikely.



I am hoping to get a better look at some flower structures and things this year, concerning legumes.



Apologies for the long post. I wasn't sure about posting some of that stretch dream / goal here. It's out there.