Can I cross runner beans with other species?

[UnicornEmily]

So, I've recently been reading a thread in the Going to Seed forum about a common bean / runner bean cross.  Sounds awesome.  That gets me wondering if it's possible to get a runner bean to cross with some other bean species.

In particular, I'm thinking about teparies and cowpeas, both of which are heat tolerant and drought tolerant, and therefore well adapted to my area.

I love the big, beautiful flowers and the big, beautiful beans of runner beans, and I suspect they will fuss about my hot, dry summers.  It would be really nifty if I could get them to cross with other species that do well here, and then segregate out a population (maybe through backcrossing?) that can do well here that grows really big beans.

It would be great if the big flowers and easy outcrossing (which tend to be linked) can be maintained, too.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Yard long beans, rice beans, cowpeas, and mung beans belong to the same genus and (with the exception of some mung beans) have the same number of chromosomes, so they might cross.

Tepary, runner, lima, and common beans are in the same genus, and have the same number of chromosomes, so they might cross.

Edited for accuracy: Thanks Jeremy

[UnicornEmily]

You're right.  I knew that, and had forgotten.  Thank you!

Hmm, maybe I should try a runner / lima bean cross, then.  I know lima beans can grow well here, and the beans are nice and big.

[Jeremy Weiss]

Favas, yard long beans, rice beans, cowpeas, and mung beans belong to the same genus and (with the exception of some mung beans) have the same number of chromosomes, so they might cross.

Tepary, runner, lima, and common beans are in the same genus, and have the same number of chromosomes, so they might cross.

Favas aren't. They belong to Vicia, not Vigna. Favas are basically a giant overgrown vetch.

I also have contemplated trying to do some crosses among the Lathyrus species to work on some new color/flower shape combinations. However, since most of the Lathyrus species are LESS edible than grass pea (I think there are only two other species ANYONE eats, alphaca and ervilla), any cross would probably be unsafe to eat.

[Cathy A]

Sadly, chickpeas or garbanzo beans are the only domesticated bean from genus Cicer. I find it sad because I love making hummus or falafel from chickpeas, but they aren't very productive per plant, so I can't justify the space in the garden.

Now if someone could breed a chickpea that was as productive as the best common beans...

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Chickpeas are one of the most inbreeding species. I think that productivity would increase dramatically if we could select for ecosystems and plants that promote higher cross pollination rates.

A manual cross pollination project would go a long ways towards producing higher yielding varieties that are more locally adapted.

[Diane Whitehead]

It was probably chickpeas I grew about 30 years ago and never since.  What a fiddle trying to shell them!  Though it could have been lentils instead.

I've just looked in Cornucopia II and it is amazing how many uses are made of them, mostly in India, so a lot of people have more patience than I do, or they might have a tool for the shelling.

7 cultivars are described, and sources listed, though they might be out of date.  I'll just list the ones that might be good for growers on this list.

Black Seeded:  small seeds, 1 or 2 per pod.  Deeper, fuller flavor and more distinct texture than common cream-colored types.  Plants produce numerous pods.  Likes hot weather.  Drought tolerant.

Kabuli Black:  95 days. originated in Kabul and released by Washington State U. 2 per pod. rich full flavor.  Somewhat tolerant of cold soil. Drought resistant.  Has grown to maturity easily in the Bitterroot Mtns of Montana

Myles:  small seeds from India, developed for use in the interior Northwest and other short-season dry areas.  Not for coastal fog belts
Available from Territorial Seeds.

Tarahumara:  small seeds, prolific, very drought and insect-resistant. Fall crop from bottom of Copper Canyon, Mexico.  Adapted to different elevations, from sea-level to 10,000 ft.

[Jeremy Weiss]

Sadly, chickpeas or garbanzo beans are the only domesticated bean from genus Cicer. I find it sad because I love making hummus or falafel from chickpeas, but they aren't very productive per plant, so I can't justify the space in the garden.

Now if someone could breed a chickpea that was as productive as the best common beans...

You wouldn't be missing much if there were. I've SEEN what the seeds of some of the other members of Cicer look like, they're all REALLY tiny.

And there is still PLENTY of diversity in them to play around with. You just have to look past the Kabouli types of the Middle East and Mediterranean and into the Desi types of India (the "black" mentioned on the list". I'm not sure about more productive, but I have found Desi types a LOT more vigorous and hardy. I sent someone on my other garden site some mixed race ones that seem to have a reasonably mix of both, Desi hardiness combined with a comparatively smooth seed (important since desis have very thick skin you have to remove to eat them.) I'll have to check with him how they are doing.

I probably have some seed lying around, but it would all be velcro chickpeas, so absolutely useless to anyone wanting to eat them (since those super spiky skins grab and hold ANYTHING they touch permanently, so they are all but uncleanable.)   

And they tend to be brown, not black ("kala" the word they actually use, is closer to "dark" than "black", as both Kala Channa (black chickpeas, and Kala Vanata (black peas) are actually brown.)

[UnicornEmily]

Velcro chickpeas!  That's a funny name for a plant I definitely don't want to grow. 

[Jeremy Weiss]

Velcro chickpeas!  That's a funny name for a plant I definitely don't want to grow. 

You don't, trust me. Basically on the velcro ones, the seed coat is COVERED with tiny bumps (even regular desi chickpeas have SOME bumps on the seed coat, but on these, they're ALL OVER.) I call them "velcro" becuase, if you press them against a fuzzy surface (like a flannel shirt) they will stick to it. THAT'S also what makes them such a bad choice for food growing, that sticky skin also catches onto, and holds, any mud, dirt or errant burlap fibers (from the shipping sacks) it comes in contact with, and cleaning it all off is nearly IMPOSSIBLE.)

Normally, the trait is fairly rare, but, about five years ago, I found a bunch of small bags of mixed legume seeds in my local Indian grocery store (in the religious supply area, for some reason) in which they made up about half of all of the chickpeas, and wound up with about a pint jarful (which is still presumably somewhere in my bedroom, but I'm not sure where). I also have a few green ones with the trait (I spent an entire growing season working out if there actually WERE chickpeas that were green at maturity, or all of them were simply picked young and dried in the shade (like they say is done commercially). Turns out, there are.)

Oh, and the velcro trait is fully heritable, if you plant a velcro, you get a velcro (unlike the "moss" (black motting) trait, which seems to come and go sort of randomly depending on degree of expression.)
 

[Garrett Schantz]

https://imgur.com/a/BeZct0O

I have about 4 "Bush" / "Dwarf" "Runner Beans" from Germany growing.

This was supposed to be a pepper bed.

But, stuff happened.


So, I tried making bean rows until they eventually get big enough to do whatever.


Kinda messed up with them - shouldn't have started stuff from seed till I was more settled in and actually fully moved somewhere.


Anyways, if any of those grow, I'm just using them for crossing. They're pretty far behind anyways.



The beans, I tried doing them in between the rows. Normally I wouldn't do that with peppers and whatever.


But, I kinda wanted more seed for some varieties and whatnot.



Some of the bean "rows" are smooshed together.


I've noticed that the Bush runner beans have their seed slightly below the soil.

They're whatever generation hybrids with common beans.


I planted some Jackson Wonder Limas at the end of the thing a few days ago too.



There's some space in the corners, with semi seats or whatever on the beds too. One of Lohrey's Old Tasmanian beans are coming up.

Hopefully the runners there do as well.



I also planted some other beans like Succotash and Red Swan.



The neighbors down the road here, grow a few rows of pole beans every year.

Which means, bees will probably flock to the flowers on these plants.



I've read that Runner bean pollen needs to goto Common bean flowers for crosses to work in most cases.

Runner beans also typically need or really like having multiple plants nearby - similar to the project with promiscuous flowering tomatoes, Runners also have open flowers and prefer to outcross.


Common beans have closed flowers for the most part or less open ones.


Mitla Black Tepary is supposedly actually a common bean and may be more open to outcrossing. I had a list of more open flowered common beans / likely to outcross, but I lost them.




Anyways, Common X Runner beans usually have some issues. For one, you can see their beans stay underground after germination. Another one has it lift upwards out of the ground and with the stem.

Their root systems can be different, and the F1 and have multiple root system types or whatever and just not grow.

Or was that with another species.



Anyways, some crosses are messy earlier on.




I have a feeling that these dwarf or Bush runners will cross back to the Sunset Runner beans or they'll be able to pollinate each other in some direction hopefully.



It's also possible that the dwarf types, all being grown originally out of labs - they may have been bred to outcross less or have closed flowers.

The place I got these from sold a ton of Runners. So, its also possible that they grew them in greenhouses and did whatever or isolated them / grew them out different years.




Limas aren't as closely related to Runners / Common beans as some other species are.


They're more closely relates to "Thicket Beans".


Oikos mentions that people have been using them to try and make hybrids but they're good on their own.

Thicket beans are perennial, actually native to woodlands and thickets all across a large part of the U.S. (yeah there's different strains and things).


I've also read that stable Runner X Common bean hybrids or mixed ones, can outcross to teparies or other species more easily for whatever reasons.



There's a lot of diversity in Tepary beans. There's wild ones that are bush types and ones that will grow up poles.


Not, creep and tendril a bit. Climb a few feet up a pole and climb sorta pole.

I don't think the one subspecies is domesticated - one is from a lowlands mostly, another is from a highlands.


And their leaves can differ in appearance. Flowers are still the same and they're fertile together.

And their beans are much smaller than domesticated Tepary beans usually. Yeah.



If you're planning on doing any sorts of hybrids like this, I'd work on making hybrids with unrelated tepary beans from different subspecies or locations / same with other species.


Sometimes the subspecies have all sorts of different traits. And sometimes backcrossing is very much a pain.


I usually just let bees do all the work, and then grow things out in rows as per usual.


If someone makes a Runner X Common bean with open flowers - likely to accept pollen from other plants.

This would be a very ideal sort of situation.

Crosses would be easier for one.

Backcrossing is more convenient with open flowers.



Woolly Beans pods have stuff in them that make them very resistant to mold. Thicket beans are resistant to mold as well as bacteria. The second one simply grows in forests and temperate areas. Wet places.


Woolly beans are closely related to common beans if I remember correctly. Or somewhat related and it's probably possible to manage some crosses.

Again, I'd work on the species or genus before fiddling around with that.



Vigna is a more complicated genus. It's probably possibly to get crosses with Phaseolus species.

Some Vigna species are closely related or more compatible with the genus than others.

A lot of them are wild / undomesticated species.


The flower structures and some other things are all initial issues and and cross will have flower structure issued in the F1. And It's the same case I believe of one species needing to be the mother.


Vigna species are also less prone to outcrossing in general if I remember correctly.



The neighbors who are growing pole beans are doing Kentucky Wonder if I remember correctly.

So, there's that.

[UnicornEmily]

Wait, Black Mitla's a common bean?!

But . . . but it's supposed to be a tepary bean!

(Goes to look at her bed of Black Mitla.)

Those . . . those do look like common bean leaves, yeah . . .

Huh.

That would explain why they're the least drought tolerant tepary beans.

I wonder if they were an interspecies cross?

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Yup regarding Black Mitla. We actually got a few seed companies to correct their catalogs to call it a common bean.



Edited to add a link to previous discussion:
https://alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/6038/tepary-beans?page=6

[Diane Whitehead]

So Carol Deppe's Beefy Resilient Grex, a cross of Gaucho x Black Mitla, is not a hybrid at all?

[UnicornEmily]

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing.  If Black Mitla's a common bean, that explains why it crossed so easily with Gaucho for her.

Thank you for the picture, Joseph!  That makes it easy to know what to look for when identifying the bean's species.