Dwarf Tomato Project 2.0

Started by William Schlegel, 2023-04-17, 04:44:49 PM

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William Schlegel

I got excited about dwarfs last year.

I made three crosses that I am sure of.

Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x Mission Mountain Sunrise F5

Dwarf Gloria's Treat x Currant Tomatoes

Mission Mountain Morning F1 x Aztek micro dwarf

All of these crosses are of OSSI descent as MMMF1 is MMS x HX-9. Also eventually I would like them to lead to new OSSI dwarfs.

Some thoughts I have for new OSSI dwarfs include more blue skinned varieties, more short season varieties, and more disease resistant varieties amongst others.

What do you want in a DTP 2.0? 
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Andrew Barney

#1
I am going to try and trial about 24 Dwarf Tomato Project varieties this year so I can try to determine what tastes good to me, if any grow well for me and are productive in my climate and conditions, and then I can mash the data and see if any would be good breeding candidates. This year I determined to try and only grow those under 75 DTM to have the best chance of getting a good crop here in Northern Colorado, USA.

https://opensourceplantbreeding.org/forum/index.php/topic,404.msg12461.html#msg12461

Even though I haven't grown it yet, Uluru Ochre stood out as being an odd one of the group. It has fairly large tomatoes but is reported to have a very short DTM, only 65 days! This is less time than many that are of cherry or grape sized tomatoes. I guess the question is whether this holds true or whether it is true but only produces one tomato the whole season. One reason I gave up on Cherokee Purple (heirloom) was because it just wasn't productive enough.

This leads me to the inevitable conclusion that if Uluru Ochre is perhaps one of the best from the Dwarf Tomato Project, that it should be crossed with Joseph Lofthouse's promiscuous bicolor Big Hill (HX-9), which while not a dwarf, is also about 65 DTM, and decently sized, and short-ish determinate. The combination could be quite fantastic. And they are both already OSSI pledged. WIN WIN?!

I think all your suggestions are great. More blue skinned, and hopefully more palatability. More fruity and exotic lines, more short season verities under 70 DTM. Does this mean using commercial hybrid lines such as Bush Early Girl F1? I think it does as some of these have short DTM such as 54 days and disease resistance such as Disease resistance of verticillium wilt, fusarium wilt races 1 and 2, root knot nematodes, and Tobacco Mosaic Virus. There is also Dirty Girl Tomato, a dehybridized version of Early Girl.

I also would like to try crossing a dwarf such as Uluru Ochre with the micro dwarf I've been calling Rocket Orange that came from Rocket Farms and sold at Sprouts, farmers market stores here in the summer. I imagine such a cross would segregate between dwarf and micro dwarf, as I imagine micro dwarf tomatoes have two sets of dwarf genes. Can a micro dwarf grow something as large as a beefsteak tomato? I have no idea, but it could lead to some interesting tomatoes either way.

Kapuler bred Plentiflor and centiflor and multi-trussed tomatoes are also interesting. While not open source pledged, they are public domain and I imagine public domain is perfectly compatible with OSSI breeidng. I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't. So that is nice.

I'm sure more ideas will come.

Kadence Luneman

Thanks for making this thread!

Here is the dwarfs
From William Schlegel..
"The One" isolated
Mission Mountain Rising (sort for dwarfs)

From Craig lehoulier..
Dwarf oriole (85-90, 6-20oz fruit, bright pale orange)
Dwarf Gloria's treat (75, potato leaf, 6-12oz fruit, yellow/red bicolor)
Sandy Dwarf stripes*
Dwarf beastly yellow heart*
Dwarf Phyl's ivory beauty*
(* not released varieties yet)

I'm hoping to do lots of hand crossing. Especially for: shorter season, exserted stigmas, open flower, open anther cone,...

Currently my thought is to prioritize crossing with..
Big hill
Exserted Orange
42 days
Exserted Tiger

Would crossing dwarfs with pimpinellifolium or habrochaites be useful at all? As I recall some of the dwarf project was crosses with everglades tomato which is probably pimp or mostly pimp cross?

nathanp

#3
Uluru Ochre is definitely the best of the 11 dwarf tomatoes I have grown.  Several of them have not produced well for me, or have been so late producing that they are not worth growing unless I can select for shorter DTM.  Wherokowhai is the best of the longer season ones but marginal in my climate. 

Banana Toes is rather productive paste tomato, and almost as short season as Uluru.  But it is rather mealy and bland.  So worth using in a cross, perhaps, but probably not on it's own unless you are just going to save them for cooking with.

Dwarf Golden Gypsy is maybe the next best of those I have grown. A reasonably good producer of large tomatoes with good taste.  Maybe two weeks later than Uluru.

These are the ones I am growing again this year:
Uluru Ochre
Dwarf Sweet Adelaide
Wherokowhai
Dwarf Golden Gypsy
Dwarf Banana Toes 6879 (I have two lines of Banana Toes from two sources)
 
Other tomatoes I am growing that I could use in crosses:
Piennelo x LA 0417 F2 16-6 17-1 untouched by Septoria 2017 - this is the F4 generation now
Hibor - small orange pear, very sweet
Lorelei -Septoria resistance
Musk Zebra x Sungold F4
Sungold F2
Unnamed Lofthouse Small Prolific tomato - Jakodka?
Cherokee Jumbo
Stripes of Yore F7
Zapotec
Bijski Zeltyi



William Schlegel

Quote from: Kadence Luneman on 2023-04-17, 07:00:47 PMWould crossing dwarfs with pimpinellifolium or habrochaites be useful at all? As I recall some of the dwarf project was crosses with everglades tomato which is probably pimp or mostly pimp cross?

I think it would be interesting. I crossed Dwarf Gloria's Treat with a mix of pollen from the resistant pimpinillifoliums I grew last year plus some sweet cherriette pollen. Current tomatoes have the potential to add resistance and shorter seasonality. The cross is a relatively easy one in terms of fertility and has few down sides- the only caveat being that recovering large fruit size can be difficult. Dwarf Eagle Smiley resulted from such a cross and is great. I found its counterpart Dwarf Johnson's Cherry to be ok but kind of ordinary.

Crossing with Solanum habrochaites is always interesting to this botanist but is definitely a long slog and seems to be easier with some dilution. Still Solanum habrochaites is relatively easily available and works as a pollen parent. It is a tomato with a lot of genetic potential even if the short-term result is extremely unpalatable.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Andrew Barney

#5
These two are reported as Dwarfs AND supposedly taste similar to sungold.

Dwarf Eagle Smiley
Wee Tang Shebang (yellow) from legendary tomato breeder Tom Wagner. (Bunny Hop Seeds or heirloomtomatoplants.com)

Maybe even an idea for the F1s for the people thread?!

Dwarf Eagle Smiley x Wee Tang Shebang F1

If anyone has seeds for these two, please send me some!

Kadence Luneman

I'm going to have to wait to see how the dwarfing is showing up because I can't tell a difference in these seedlings.

William Schlegel, from you is among some of the tallest so we'll see how they go. Including The One and Exserted Tiger. MMR have multiple heights.

Nothing is as homogeneous as the dwarf project seedlings heights. I'm hoping as they grow I'll be able to spot the ones with shorter distance between branches.
Now I'm glad the dwarf project seeds I got seem to be all dwarf since apparently I don't have the eye for it yet.

I'm trying to get the early plants outside tomorrow before the many days of rain forecasted. To make space to pot up the tomatoes. I think they are getting a bit crowded in these cells.

Tim DH

Hi Andrew,
   Your F1 suggestion is interesting. ... It's exactly the direction I hope the project will go. There are a HUGE number of OP varieties available, so its not unreasonable to hope that the right pairings might excel in any given area.
   I occasionally read the Tomato Junction forum and they have a thread about de-hybridizing Sungold. To my thinking, that is completely the wrong way to go! Where as de-hybridization may produce some interesting stable lines, it is highly unlikely that it will ever create anything which exceeds the F1

Tim DH

Cathy A

#8
Tim, I think the original goal of the Sungold dehybridizers was to produce one or more stable OP varieties that had the most valuable traits of the original F1. Until it was tried, no one really knew if it was possible.

After years of multiple attempts, we can now be pretty certain that the Sungold flavor cannot be stabilized. Presumably it requires heterozygosity, probably at multiple sites. But "you never know until you try."

Cathy A

Has anyone tried crossing Jagodka with a dwarf variety?

I know that Jagodka was used as an important parent in several experiments described here, including the creation of the Beautifully Promiscuous and Tasty Tomato project. Joseph's plot showing its high productivity of fruit in the first half of the season suggests it has excellent traits.

However, it is anything but a dwarf. An Earl's Jagodka plant is shown below. It is about a month old and it is still too cold outside to transplant it!
Earl's Jagodka 4-28-23.jpg

William Schlegel

Note: Earl's strain of Jagodka which seems true as described by Tatiana's tomatobase seems to be different from Joseph's used in ancestry of Big Hill HX-9 and then the promiscuous tomato project. It was quite a small plant for me but definitely not rugose-dwarf.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Cathy A

#11
I think I have a plant of Joseph's Jagodka somewhere in the mix, but its seeds were planted later so it has had less time to grow.

Edit: I have several plants of Earl's strain of Jagodka, and one of Jagodka purchased from EFN. I don't know whether the EFN is Earl's strain or Joseph's.

Andrew Barney

Quote from: Andrew Barney on 2023-04-17, 06:39:57 PMI am going to try and trial about 24 Dwarf Tomato Project varieties this year so I can try to determine what tastes good to me, if any grow well for me and are productive in my climate and conditions, and then I can mash the data and see if any would be good breeding candidates.

https://opensourceplantbreeding.org/forum/index.php/topic,404.msg12461.html#msg12461

All 24ish varieties are planted. 24 in raised containers and another 24 in a raised bed. Added vermiculite to combat my dry climate in container grown conditions.

In the grow tent there was a minor outbreak of disease. Yukon Quest seemed the most affected at the time and Mary's Cherry, so neither were planted in the containers. Moonglow is not a dwarf so was also not planted with the first batch.

In the raised bed Mary's Cherry still looked pitiful so was left out again and is thus basically eliminated from my trial. Yukon Quest recovered enough it was planted in the raised bed along with Moonglow despite it not being a dwarf.

"The One" was included in both plantings despite not being a dwarf. Also Big Hill.

An F4 pennellii hybrid was planted in the raised bed next to the weird tomato from last year that had wild traits. A mostly domestic peruvianum hybrid will be planted with them later as the seeds were sown late. Hopefully between these 3 they will pollinate each other successfully.

nathanp

Can anyone growing Uluru Ochre verify that it is normally a 'normal' tomato leafed plant?  The description in Victory Seeds' website lists it as this.  I potted up 36 seedlings this year from my 2021 seed and about 6 plants have potato leaves.  I am not sure if this is not quite stabilized (inbred) or represents an outcross.  They appear to be shorter than the regular leafed seedlings. 

Cathy A

My 3 Uluru Ochre plants are all normal tomato leafed, not potato leafed.

I can't say whether the variety is completely stabilized or not, but I think it's more likely that you have an outcross.