2023 Tomato Plans

[Jeremy Weiss]

Wow!  How old were those seeds?

Varied. Some of them would have gone back to my days in college, so we'd be talking about twenty years or more. A few probably went back a bit farther, but not much (It wasn't until college I developed a taste for raw tomatoes, about the same time I discovered heirlooms.)

It's really a pity, since a lot of those seeds either came from little growers I had met online who had since disappeared, or from interesting tomatoes I had found over the years and saved. I undoubtedly lost a TON of material that was impossible to replace, and that undoubtedly contained a lot of ones that would have been interesting or important had I kept them going, like Peeled Eyeball (a white, basically transparent cherry tomato I found two of in a mixed punnet at the Gourmet Garage when it was still open near me, which was so sweet and fruit like that the usual vinegar I added at that time to my tomatoes before eating was a mistake in this case), a chocolate brown version of Black Krim (orange base color instead of pink/red) Fuzzy Cherokee (a furry version of Purple Cherokee I got in a swap with the people who now run Wild Boar Farms before they hit it big in tomatoes), some packets of Searching For the Blue Wooly Mammoth (the mixed grex Tom Wagner sold when he was looking for a fuzzy tomato with the blue skin trait and was letting others help him with the endeavor) and on and on.

Alas, that's often the story with most of my seeds, I buy (or find) way more than I can grow each year, so the backlog builds up year after year until, when I finally DO get to them, they've died from old age. But on the flip side, every time I try and spread some of the stuff around to speed things up, I usually hit any of many walls from other growers, they want to focus on their things only, they have radically different ideas of where they want the project to go and the methods to be used. Their methods mean that any reasonable sample I could give them just gets lost immediately (this is a big problem with corn, where I can supply maybe ten or twenty kernels and they're tossing them into several pounds worth because they grow their corn on a multi acre scale and mass select from there. And when this happens a lot say it's MY fault for not giving them enough of a sample to make a difference in their project, and demand I turn over ALL the seed I have.)

There is also the fact that, since a lot of people will only give you seed of what you want if you can give them new seed they want and don't have, I have to hoard my swapping opportunities carefully. Since pretty much anyone can more or less instantly make more of any seed I provide than I can, and therefore share it down the line much more readily (in some cases, taking advantage of that fact to claim credit for discovering or creating it in the first place, so I basically get one shot per type of seed. I HATE having to think so selfishly, but the alternative is to basically wind up in a state where I always incur all of the costs, and someone else always gets all of the benefits.     

[William Schlegel]

Wooly Blue Mammoth 🦣 sounds fun!

Wonder if its still out there?


https://www.delectationoftomatoes.com/store/p1280/Seattle%27s_Blue_Woolly_Mammoth.html

Looks like it is.

One thing I think noteworthy about heirloom type domestic tomatoes is that they are fairly low diversity at the genetic level but high diversity phenotype wise.

So in theory we can recreate about anything phenotype wise as long as we have the traits.

[Jeremy Weiss]

Wooly Blue Mammoth 🦣 sounds fun!

Wonder if its still out there?


https://www.delectationoftomatoes.com/store/p1280/Seattle%27s_Blue_Woolly_Mammoth.html

Looks like it is.

One thing I think noteworthy about heirloom type domestic tomatoes is that they are fairly low diversity at the genetic level but high diversity phenotype wise.

So in theory we can recreate about anything phenotype wise as long as we have the traits.

It is and it isn't. That is indeed Blue Wooly Mammoth i.e. the one at the end of the project that Tom ultimately chose. What I had were packets of the prototype seed, the stuff BEFORE he made the final selection when things were still all mixed up. I didn't have much interest in Blue Wooly Mammoth per se at all, I was looking for a green when ripe fuzzy that DIDN'T have the blue skin trait, one that would be a REJECT in the project. When you have a diverse population, you can get more than one final result out of it. I had noticed there didn't seem to be a green when ripe peach type tomato (at the time, I did not know about Wooly Zebra, it may not have existed yet) and, since that was the kind of tomato I best thought would meet my current culinary needs (I tend to favor the taste of green when ripe, and peach type tomatoes are often better for things like Greek salads and other marinated dishes because the fuzz catches more of the marinade. So I thought I could find it there. I'm STILL working on a fuzzy black/brown tomato, preferably an integrated brown*, which I plan to call Cassia's Hairball (after my former cat).

*I divide "brown" and chocolate tomatoes into two or more groups; those that have an orange/red base with a green covering and streaks (much like how most "black tomatoes have areas of pink and green in them and green shoulders) and those where the green and red are so intermixed in the flesh the result actually  DOES look brown. There's aren't many of the latter (Mr. Brown is the first one I can think of off the top of my head) but there are a few. Those are integrated browns.

It's sort of like how Purple Cherokee is really more of a dark pink with a green overlay, while Purple Calabash really IS purple (well, reddish purple, sort of bruise colored). But then, being so old Purple Calabash is weird in a LOT of ways when compared to other tomatoes.   

[William Schlegel]

It has been interesting with Joseph's promiscuous project to occasionally have very odd results like tomatoes with deep lobes and purple/dark type colors. Or like the Fairy Hollow segregate that was hollow like some of the old stuffer types. Though mine segregated back to wild types.

Habrochaites and Galapagense have the potential to bring in fuzz in my arthropod resistant project.

[Kadence Luneman]

@ William Schlegel, did you have goals for "The One" aside from looking for the persimmon flavor?
Considering your notes on late season and low production I was thinking about crossing to 42 days or Barry's crazy cherry.

[William Schlegel]

In 2022 I intended to grow so much seed for it I could share it widely and to work towards stabilizing the good flavor.

From growing it in 2022 I think the flavor is far from stable. It produced so little seed that while I have enough to share with folks here I don't have enough to share with the general public.

I saw one plant that produced more seed. Guessing it was an outcross to some other 2021 promiscuous project plant. It was in the small patch in the big field with everything else.

I think it couldn't hurt to cross it with other tomatoes to try to get a shorter season and more productive version. My thought was to cross it with Mission Mountain Morning. Which I won't know if I succeeded at till I grow the seed from that crossing block.

For 2023 I want to either find some 2022 crosses or try again to make some.

I have a number of packets of it. It was in four gardens in 2022 an isolation block, the greenhouse, a MMS/MMM crossing blocks, and the large everything else garden where a few plants went into a dense row and another late patch was planted.

I think I have lost some of my excitement for it in 2022. So my 2023 plans for it might be a little less. I might try direct seeding it. I have a mix of it and MMM from the crossing block. I'm guessing it would not fare well unless in hybrid form. Though that would be one way to force it back into a more adapted form. I saved seed from all four gardens. Not sure how many separate packets but a good amount. I probably will not use it all in 2023. I thought I might start mainly by looking for regular leaf crosses in the MMM seed from the crossing block. 

[Adrian]

Its normal that i found  tomato almost without seeds (2-3seeds/fruits)  in some f2 between canestrino di lucca x andine cornue (PL).And some tomato without viable seeds on a black f2 between green giant and tiny tim?
It worth it to selected tomatos with very little seeds?

[William Schlegel]

Its normal that i found  tomato almost without seeds (2-3seeds/fruits)  in some f2 between canestrino di lucca x andine cornue (PL).And some tomato without viable seeds on a black f2 between green giant and tiny tim?
It worth it to selected tomatos with very little seeds?

I've read that some varieties have very few. So it has been done! It makes seed growing harder but it might be advantageous in some ways. If you like it save the seed!

[Kadence Luneman]

Very interesting. Well I'll be playing with it and will send you back seed from whatever I get from it and it's crosses. Probably using it as the pollen parent to get more seeds.

The low amount of seeds seems to show up in certain extremes. Animals bred too small or too big are harder and harder to breed without more problems. I got some oxheart carrot seed, huge up to a pound each carrot, and they are listed as low seed producers. Seems that the tomatoes recommend as the best paste tomatoes are low seed producers.

[UnicornEmily]

Seems that the tomatoes recommend as the best paste tomatoes are low seed producers.

Interesting!  I've noticed that Romas have very few seeds.

I consider that a bonus.  They're very easy to remove, and 20 seeds per tomato is still an excellent abundance to save.

[Adrian]

When i have crossed andine cornue with male pollen of canestrino di lucca i have found 140 seeds in the fruit polinisated but between 20 and 40 seeds in the fruits autofecondated.
Thoses tomatos can given a big seed quantity with a good polinisation!

My main objectiv is to get horned tomato with potato leaf for this moment and more vigorous and tolerant at the BER  than the andine cornue.

[William Schlegel]

My plans for 2023 for tomatoes are:

The One- have three flowers between two plants right now so we'll see how many seeds I get
Mission Mountain Rising-  planted 12 seeds, 11 came up, and one was dwarf potato leaf  want to plant seeds from it
Bison- want to cross it with Purple Zebra
Purple Zebra- hoping for cross with Bison
Exserted Orange- want to plant what I saved from last year
Exserted Tiger-doing a container grow to look for more blue blush tomatoes
Yellow Chariot- doing a container grow looking for determinate, yellow, pear shaped

Then one plant each of Galina and Amana Orange from last year's seeds.  Also got seeds for Lyana Pink if I can find a spot for them.

That dwarf potato leaf Mission Mountain Rising is a good find! I am wondering if I may need to back cross to Mission Mountain Morning to get everything I want from the cross.

[William Schlegel]

I forgot I want to make a cross with Flamenco which I got here:

https://jandlgardens.com/xencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=105&products_id=644&zenid=86vd9jat3am44iskicsauc2q34

[Tim DH]

My guess as to why paste tomatoes have few seeds is that they have been selected for the trait! Tomato seeds are bitter. This isn't noticeable when the fruit is eaten fresh, fresh cooked, or dried. The bitterness is contained within the seed coat. But I think the bitterness slowly leaches out when the fruit is cooked and stored.

I don't have much experience, but I would expect stored products made from seedy fruit to taste less appealing than that made from low seed fruit.

Tim DH

[Jeremy Weiss]

My guess as to why paste tomatoes have few seeds is that they have been selected for the trait! Tomato seeds are bitter. This isn't noticeable when the fruit is eaten fresh, fresh cooked, or dried. The bitterness is contained within the seed coat. But I think the bitterness slowly leaches out when the fruit is cooked and stored.

I don't have much experience, but I would expect stored products made from seedy fruit to taste less appealing than that made from low seed fruit.

Tim DH

There is another reason. The fewer seeds, the less gel there is around them. Paste tomatoes are grown for that, paste, and the gel has a higher concentration of water than the rest of the flesh does. Less gel, less moisture, less time to cook down.

I suspect that, if you were to take equal amounts of paste tomato flesh and regular tomato flesh from which you'd removed all of the seeds and gel, they'd cook down in more or less identical times.