Author Topic: Strawberry Species / Hybrids  (Read 741 times)

Garrett Schantz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 428
  • Karma: 16
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #15 on: 2021-06-12, 02:06:04 PM »
Moving a few of the feral strawberries that are growing in the woods to a full sun location. They appear to be anassa like I previously thought. The bees that have been pollinating the rubus species aren't bothering with the strawberry flowers. Might have better luck in full sun where the flowers aren't hidden by other plants.

Joseph Lofthouse

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 377
  • Karma: 45
  • Great Basin desert, Rocky Mountains
    • Open Source Plant Breeding Forum, founder. World Tomato Society, ambassador. Plant Breeder. Yogi. Shaman.
    • View Profile
    • Garden.Lofthouse.com
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dsa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA Zone 5
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #16 on: 2021-06-13, 10:36:26 AM »
I have a friend who makes manual (lettuce?) crosses by spraying the flowers every 5 minutes with water to wash away the pollen as it's released, then applying pollen from another plant

S.Simonsen

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 125
  • Karma: 7
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Cfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA 9
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #17 on: 2021-06-13, 06:48:45 PM »
Rosaceae seems to have a lot of potential for intergeneric hybrids. Burbank crossed just about every Rosaceae you can think of with an isolated female raspberry (though most of the f1s were sterile).

This friend of mine seems to have crossed raspberry and strawberry, recently confirmed by lab analysis. Best of all the hybrids are fertile so they are growing out the F2 now.

http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2019/02/strawberry-x-raspberry-intergeneric.html

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 351
  • Karma: 15
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #18 on: 2021-06-13, 08:09:24 PM »
I went to take a second look, wondering if I could find any female flowers.  I did find some, mostly in the small wild type, and a few that look to be intermediate in size - perhaps they have crossed.   Wondering about pollinators, ironically I found different insects on female vs hermaphrodite flowers.  I saw several flies on the big garden strawberry flowers.  Flies and ants would both be after nectar though I think, and not pollen, so being female in a hermaphrodite world would not be a huge disadvantage, if the pollinator isn't looking for pollen.


Garrett Schantz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 428
  • Karma: 16
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #19 on: 2021-06-13, 08:31:07 PM »
I have also found mention of Fragaria x Rubus (Raspberry) actual working out online.

https://the-biologist-is-in.blogspot.com/2015/01/hybrid-sterility-and-speciation.html

http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2018/04/strawberry-raspberry-hybrids.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2018/07/strawberry-x-raspberry-hybrid-plant.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2019/02/strawberry-x-raspberry-experiment-update.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2019/02/strawberry-x-raspberry-intergeneric.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2020/07/strawberry-raspberry-hybrid-plants.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2020/09/raspberry-x-strawberry-hybrid-f2-seed.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2021/05/strawberry-raspberry-hybrids-test.html

This is quite interesting to me. The fact that they got the plants tested is even better. Unfortunately I don't have Fragaria vesca plants at the moment.

It should work with F. vesca and R. occidentalis as well. So I might not need a red raspberry.

The R. occidentalis in my area has the white / reddish stems. Even other types usually have blueish stems. R. idaeus has green stems. Not to mention the whole black - blue colored fruit. Even the Yellow Black Raspberry could prove interesting in a cross.

R. occidentalis would be of more interest in breeding to a F. vesca than just purely to R. idaeus. A strawberry with anthocyanin would be interesting.

Making crosses with R. idaeus types from North America and Europe - along with others that have the same ploidy would probably be very nice. Same thing with F. vesca.

This would allow for the best flavors / disease resistances of both parents.

From what the Living-mudflower blog has said, the hybrid appears to somewhat perennial based, same with the Fragaria parent. Runners probably produce even more F1 clones. Quite a nice thing for breeding purposes. The plants don't fruit untill around the second year - same as raspberries.

The hybrid should have sugars from both parents according to the Living-mudflower test results. Also seems to be very "tasty". Selecting the tastiest varieties from both species should give excellent offspring.



Now to mention possible issues:

The first one would be that in this cross, the plants all seem to have mostly Fragaria characteristics. This could be due to a number of reasons - one of them could be that most of the Rubus genes get skipped over and reverted to the Fragaria type. Something similar happens with Female Mule x Male Donkey hybrids - most of the Horse genes are replaced with Donkeys.

Could of course be that the Fragaria genes are carried over mostly by the mother, most of the Rubus genes are skipped over right away. Living-mudflower mentions this as well, along with a related source: www.fao.org/3/a-y5553e.pdf

This may feel familiar to others on here - Solanum chilense's root system is maternal based. Some other wild tomato species behave this way as well.

This could mean that certain disease resistances may not transfer over - or things may end up sterile at higher rates in certain generations. Most diseases/pathogens attack certain genes, having a target gene cross over to Fragaria species without the resistance / immunity could cause the pathogen to adapt and start attacking other Fragaria species(Or Rubus species). Of course the last part could happen even if the resistant gene is present.

R. occidentalis plants usually need pollination from other plants, there are Fragaria species like this as well - might help to maintain diversity / traits from both parents. Unsure if the female / male mechanisms are the same/compatible though. If important genes are being skipped over due to maternal related genes, backcrossing may work - hopefully in either direction.

Mixing in different species that have different ploidy counts would be nice as well. But then the cross may not work very well - would probably need to have the plants tested to try and restore the ploidy along the way.

Figured I would quote this from the Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids thread.

A few things to add from the top of my head - the strawberry that Burbank used was a Garden Strawberry (Fragaria x anassa), which is an octoploid. The Raspberry that he used was probably a diploid.

From what the Potentilla x Fragaria or Octoploid strawberry x Diploid strawberry articles / studies have shown, there is a lot of infertility and other issues with crosses of different ploidys.

Living Mudflower reported sterility issues in the F1, as you mentioned. This was with a diploid Strawberry / Raspberry.

This means that Burbank probably got hit with the sterility issues caused from the differing ploidy count, along with mismatched genes.

Raspberries grow on canes, strawberries sort of creep or grow upright as a small plant. Strawberries fruit is also different, the seeds are on the outside, a few other differences. Raspberries don't even really have the same type of "runners" as strawberries, they just root at the tips.

This also further fuels my thought that a bunch of raspberry genes were cut out / skipped over. They couldn't pair up with the strawberry genes in the same location. This might also explain sterility issues, as the generations go on the issues should resolve themselves by natural selection.

I mentioned this somewhere else on here, genes within the different sets of chromosomes need to be similar enough to add on, merge with a different parent's chromosome.

The test wasn't a full on genetic test - it mostly tested sugars from both parents - among other things, people in other forums have declared this as a reasoning that it isn't a definite hybrid. They have also argued that there aren't any "intermediate looking plants". But as I mentioned before - the raspberries canes, among other traits may have been cut out immediately. Things like different sugars may have lined up just enough.

Quite an interesting matter. I'm planning on making a tasty rubus intergenus hybrid, attempting to keep it as an octoploid or diploid. Either one works, I want to do this with strawberry species as well, the different species are hard to find.


S.Simonsen

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 125
  • Karma: 7
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Cfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA 9
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #20 on: 2021-06-13, 09:15:06 PM »
They tested by mass spectrometry looking at the range occupied by peptides and small proteins, which is much more informative than just testing sugars. Not as good as a full genetic screen, but gets around the chicken and egg issues of identifying gene sequences in the parents to identify in the putative hybrids. I have seen the data and it looks pretty conclusive that there are loads of unique peptides in the hybrid that only occur in one of either parent species.

Garrett Schantz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 428
  • Karma: 16
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #21 on: 2021-06-13, 09:43:11 PM »
Yeah, I didn't word that in the best way.

Once the fertility issues are solved, this could become a really big thing. Could select for something that tastes better than strawberries or raspberries, and is also more nutritious.

Once botanists and breeders figure out that this cross is successful, other Rubus / Fragaria could be experimented with by large labs.

Imagine if labs managed a loganberry - garden strawberry cross...

Mass spectrometry is nice, it would be nice to see genetic results of the F1 seeds / plants. Could reveal what genes / chromosomes paired up, which ones didn't. Could help further experiments.

Garrett Schantz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 428
  • Karma: 16
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #22 on: 2021-06-15, 07:26:47 PM »
I bought a "Geum species" from Walmart today.

No variety name was listed, nor species.

Geum is closely related to Potentilla and Fragaria. There are also already double flowered types, orange flowered species, all sorts of nice stuff. Might be fun to attempt some crosses with.

The type that I bought seems to have red looking flowers, they are dried out - hard to tell the exact color.


My largest end goal here, is to encorporate unique / helpful genes from: Geum, Potentilla, few other genuses if possible - and eventually into a strawberry that will be used in a Rubus x Fragaria cross (if it works).

All of these different genuses have some nice looking flowers and other features.


Garrett Schantz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 428
  • Karma: 16
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #23 on: 2021-06-16, 06:54:14 PM »
Took a stroll through the woods today, checking on ripeness of Rubus berries, harvested some red elderberries - etc.

Found a small plant with a Rosaceae type of flower. No thorns, not a small Rubus. Leaves didn't fit a strawberry, long flowering stalk. Figured either a Geum or a Potentilla. So, I got my phone out and used the nice PlanetNet app. The app says that the plant is a Geum species. Geum laciniatum and Geum canadense. I'm going with Geum canadense, I have found plants before in the spring with the green leaves that have white markings.

I also tried out the "Geum species" on the app, still no flowers - so going off the leaves. The app said Geum coccineum - the dried flowers on the plant have a darkish red tinge. So, Geum coccineum would make sense.

Geum canadense is from North America. Wikipedia says that Geum coccineum is from: Western Asia (Turkey) and in Southeastern Europe (Albania; Bosnia and Herzegovina; Bulgaria; Greece; Macedonia; Montenegro; Serbia). (Their source is ARS / GRIN / USDA).

So, being from different continents, I have no idea how well they would hybridize, some Geum species can cross freely. Ploidy count could differ / be an issue as well.

Either way I have Potentilla canadensis and Geum canadense available to experiment with, both are native to my area. I can't find any native strawberry species nearby, that would be even better.

Geum canadense looks quite different from young plant, to the flowering stage. I prefer the non-flowering stage leaves. Quite ornamental in the woods. I tried looking for more plants, found a single large clump with the top portions gone. I'm assuming that deer demolish most of the plants.

A fun thing about Geum canadense is listed on this website: http://www.illinoiswildflowers.info/savanna/plants/white_avens.htm

Cultivation: The preference is light shade or partial sun, moist to slightly dry conditions, and a loam or clay-loam soil. At favorable sites, this plant can spread aggressively and is somewhat weedy. White Avens is able to grow underneath Black Walnut trees (Juglans nigra) because of its tolerance to the phytotoxic chemicals that are released by the fallen leaves and roots of this tree.

Black Walnuts have a pretty high juglone content in comparison to other Juglans species. Strawberries can't really handle any amount of juglone found in the soil, or from leaves.

Strawberries make a nice groundcover, having a strawberry groundcover that can grow underneath Black Walnut trees would be quite nice. Would probably work in a "food forest" that has Walnut trees as well.

Some maple trees make a similar chemical as well.

Geum canadense can hybridize readily with Geum urbanum from Europe / The Middle East. Geum urbanum is also reported to hybridize frequently with Geum rivale - which looks quite ornamental.

I haven't noticed any Geum x Rubus plants. Though these plants are red at the base of the stems, same as the low growing Rubus species that I found before.

I moved a Geum canadense plant next to the Geum coccineum plant. If coccineum flowers again, bees should go back and forth between the flowers.


I might try getting Geum triflorum seeds as well. Again, another ornamental looking plant. Bumblebees apparently rip open the flowers to get to the nectar and pollen. Bumblebees usually don't bother with strawberry flowers. Would be nice to make strawberries that are highly attractive to bees. Though other insects might become pests due to that.


If anyone wants seeds of these, I can try collecting some. Potentilla canadensis might be a bit tricky due to how small the flowers are, but they ultimately grow in small spike balls, should be easy to collect seed. Seeds from wild plants seem to be hard to find.

Nicollas

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 93
  • Karma: 11
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #24 on: 2021-06-16, 11:36:01 PM »
From the french wikipedia, i've not done deeper searches yet :

Quote
Fragaria × Dasiphora fruticosa (2n=14, 28, 42) avec un taux de réussite très bas. L'idée des chercheurs est de produire une plante porteuse de fraises et présentant un port arbustif mais les quelques hybrides réussis jusqu'à présent ont toujours eu le port rampant du fraisier.

Attempts to breed a woody shrub strawberry :)
Very low cross success, but hybrids did not meet the goal. We should find the study !

Nicollas

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 93
  • Karma: 11
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #25 on: 2021-06-16, 11:49:05 PM »
Quote
Crosses between Fragaria moschata (2n=42) and Potentilla fruticosa (2n=14) produced many seeds; about half of these germinated, but only nine plants were obtained from 554 seedlings. Five plants died without flowering, and four were vigorous but sterile. Four plants had the expected chromosome number (2n=28), one plant had 21 chromosomes, and four were aneuploid with 23, 24, 25 and 27 chromosomes respectively. Response to growth substances giving elongated stem internodes and swollen but not succulent receptacles provided evidence that two of the plant were hybrids. It is suggested that all nine plants originated from a normal fertilisation which was followed in some cases by chromosome elimination at an early stage of embryo development.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00035410

Garrett Schantz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 428
  • Karma: 16
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #26 on: 2021-06-17, 05:18:11 AM »
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00035410

Should be interesting to try and recreate this hybrid.

Potentilla fruticosa is now being referred to as Dasiphora fruticosa due to genetic tests showing a few plants to be distinct.

Should be easy to get seeds, it's grown as an ornamental.

Ferdzy

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 260
  • Karma: 14
    • View Profile
    • Seasonal Ontario Food
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: CDN 5/6; USA 4/5
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #27 on: 2021-07-11, 05:05:41 PM »
This is a bit off topic, but I am so pleased with these strawberries. They are from a volunteer, I'm guessing Tristar x some other domestic. Day neutral and amazing flavour.




Nicollas

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 93
  • Karma: 11
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #28 on: 2021-07-12, 04:41:09 AM »
Attila, a wild strawberry that makes runners

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 351
  • Karma: 15
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« Reply #29 on: 2021-07-13, 03:26:10 PM »
Ferdzy, those are beautiful as a bonus to being delicious.  8)
I thought I would post a pic of the two phenos of the wild vs the feral strawberry.   I do believe they have crossed, as some of the wild ones are much larger than the original tiny type.   I also noticed that the flavor of the wild type is extremely variable.  Some are very sharp and sour as is typical of the wild, one was just bland, others taste like raspberries but none like a typical strawberry.  The feral garden type has been consistently a nice classic strawberry flavor with perfect balance of sweet and tangy.  In the pic, wild on the left shows original size (tiny) vs probably crossed.  The feral strawberry shown is maybe half the size of the largest ones.
 I realized the robins are probably responsible for planting them around the beds by sitting on the rails and letting fly seeds + guano.  They also are doing an amazing job of keeping the slugs off them.  I found just a few hollow strawberry skins but nearly all have been perfect and pristine.  I've been picking a handful every day just the ones that I spot when I'm about my own business.  This is such a much better arrangement than the original plan, where it was my strawberries and the robin shouldn't take any.  Robin is very gracious about sharing and I'm respectful not to  take all.  ;D