Author Topic: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids  (Read 988 times)

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #30 on: 2021-06-02, 07:42:34 PM »
I put some dead alpine strawberry roots in a pile around the area that these plants are growing - one or two years ago.

So there is the possibility that these aren't feral ananassa plants. Flowers are also pretty small - foliage is different than my ananassa types as well.

If these are F. vesca, I could probably attempt crosses with occidentalis next year.

F. iinumae, F. daltoniana, F. viridis - numerous other species could be mixed into F. vesca prior to the hybridization. Most of the other diploids are hard to find.

F. vesca "Multiplex" has double flowers. Golden Alexandria has yellow leaves. Yellow fruited plants could be used as well.

There is apparently a type called Monophylla which has one leaf.

The Plymouth strawberry has leaflets coming out of the flower and fruit. Rather useless in terms of edibility. It is rather rare, one site is selling it.

I am getting some more F. vesca seeds - different varieties. Possibly other diploids if I can find sources in the U.S.


General strawberry breeding will go into a separate thread. I have single plants of F. chiloensis and F. virginiana - some Pink / Red Flowered strawberries which are probably descended from the cross between Potentilla palustris and F. chiloensis. Assuming that the ploidy was balanced back into a octoploid or was already an octoploid. I haven't heard of any octoploid Rubus species. So I would need to breed these with F. vesca or another species if I wanted their genetics in the Rubus x Fragaria project - I would need to convert them into diploids. That would take quite some time.

Imagine orange - blue - black fruited strawberries...

All of my Oikos brambles are doing pretty well, putting on new growth.

There are also Rosa multiflora on the borders of the woods. Apparently a diploid. 

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #31 on: 2021-06-03, 09:34:26 AM »
Found some "wild" F. vesca seeds on Etsy for the Rubus x Fragaria attempt in the future. The seller also offered: Fraise du Bois, Improved Rügen, Alexanderia, White Soul. So the "wild" type is probably a true wild type - which should be nice for disease resistances and other things. Also ordered F. moschata from the same seller - just so that I wasn't ordering a single item. F. moschata is a hexaploid - Loganberries are hexaploids are well, I have no Loganberries though. Maybe I will order some plants next year. R. ursinus has hexaploid forms as well.

R. leucodermis, R. spectabilis,  R. parviflorus are also diploids according to a Nature article. https://www.nature.com/articles/hdy201245

Unsure if everything would pair up well with a strawberry, R. ursinus is in a different clade than the previously attempted species.

It also appears that not all R. idaeus species are diploids - many varieties have been crossed with other species which changed the ploidy, some accessions just have different ploidy. This could mean that Luther Burbank was using a raspberry with a different ploidy because genetics weren't really known back then. Also add in the fact that the North American species - R. strigosus is often called a subspecies or variant of R. idaeus. They have also been crossed quite a bit. This could have led to different ploidy counts as well.

I also ordered a Encore Red Raspberry(R. idaeus) plant and a Royalty Purple Raspberry, they call it R. neglectus for the species - I would call it Rubus x neglectus though. Probably R. occidentalis x R. strigosus or crossed to a R. idaeus - R. strigosus hybrid. Hopefully a diploid - this is apparently an older cross from 1982, if I can cross it to some local R. occidentalis or to the R. leucodermis that I bought, that would be quite nice. Unsure of the ploidy count of the R. phoenicolasius that I have. Could be variable within the species. I would probably do a bunch of backcrosses to remove some unpleasant traits though.

The trailing blackberry that I mentioned before could be R. ursinus - it resembles online images. Also managed to find a few more groups of it in the woods. The taller plants are probably R. allegheniensis judging from the leaves, stems and flowers. Some of the stranger looking blackberries could be hybrids between the two. Hopefully the R. ursinus(?) is a hexaploid so I could try out some F. moschata hybrids in the future. Probably not sending them to a lab to find out - so I will probably just attempt the cross as is.

I was done buying Rubus species for the year, but I found those two on Etsy - both costed $8 and the seller had pretty much all 5 star reviews. So, I budged. A lot of reviews said that their plants looked to be around one year old. Meaning I could get flowers by next year if all goes well.

Still no idea what the trailing Rubus species that I bought from Oikos is.
It is listed as R. pumila - can't find a single thing on it. Likes sandy well drained soil but is found growing in moist coniferous forests as well as far as any soil disturbance is present. The berry was found in Maine. Could be an invasive or just a little known berry.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #32 on: 2021-06-04, 11:31:54 AM »
Most of the buds on the single large leaved rubus with flowers are falling off, wilting - turning brown. No other typed are flowering, but this could indicate a sterility issue as well as a hybrid. No other issues with the plants at the moment. Most of the plants are wanting to creep. So there is a likelihood that it crossed with R. ursinus - stems are also rather slender. Only having a single plant floweing could be an issue as well.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #33 on: 2021-06-16, 07:17:06 PM »
Some unripe berries from the low growing plant which is probably R. ursinus. Some berries are still closed up, could be a defense against insects?

I am going to try saving seeds from different species separately. Any notable plants get their seeds saved in a special container - these types will be given a special area, probably in full sun to grow.

I'm probably going to end up removing a bunch of the brambles in the woods, the blackberries are growing on a trail. They are also suffering from the shaded conditions. R. allegheniensis is supposed to be a full sun plant, which can't tolerate shade. Rather not have it getting sick and spreading any disease.

Some black raspberries are turning red. They go from red to black rather quickly. I need to beat the birds to the berries. So I will be checking the plants daily for awhile. The blackberries are starting to become large as well.

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #34 on: 2021-06-19, 02:03:10 AM »
I'm probably not buying certain crops next year due to all of the things that I am ordering...

Anyways, I bought:

R. cockburnianus 'Aureus'
R. setchuenensis
R. lineatus

R. setchuenensis and  R. lineatus are both in the poorly studied Malachobatus clade. I would have ordered these sooner if I had realized they were in the same clade. Both plants are shrub-like, R. lineatus is drought tolerant - fairly cold tolerant, zone 7 by most sources(I will heavily mulch the plant, or keep it in a pot). R. setchuenensis is probably more cold hardy.

Now a tricky part: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13039-015-0114-y

Subgenus Idaeobatus species are predominantly diploid, whereas subg. Malachobatus represents a polyploid complex, with tetraploidy, hexaploidy, octoploidy or tetradecaploidy level [6,11,12]. Interestingly, R. parvifolius in subg. Idaeobatus had various ploidy levels, with di-, tri-, tetraploid, and mixed diploid-tetraploid [13]. Not only are the phylogenetic relationships between these species unknown, we also don’t even know to what extent ploidy level varies among them.

I have found a few sources claiming R. setchuenensis to be a triploid(https://www.isgpb.org/documents/archive/13-242-249-qing-chen.pdf) - but it could have a different ploidy. Not too sure about R. lineatus.

R. parvifolius(Different from R. parviflorus, spelt in a similar way) would be nice to have - in terms of hybridizing the Malachobatus clade with Idaeobatus species. If the R. setchuenensis is a tetraploid, I would have to cross it with a diploid. There would be a lot of sterility in such a cross - that is without the issues of them being in different clades.

Either way, I may try hybridizing R. setchuenensis and R. lineatus. Selecting for cold hardiness and drought tolerance seems like a nice start. R. lineatus can apparently cross easily with "native blackberries". Might try out some controlled crosses.


If I can only manage blackberry crosses, I may try out thornless bush blackberries as a project. Would be similar to Andrew's Anoplobatus project, mine would be in the Rubus clade (Yeah, great name for a subgenus - same name as the actual genus) I will probably stick with calling it by the old name - Eubatus. This would also be in the Malachobatus clade towards the beginning, I want to branch it towards the blackberry clade, just as a base for anyone else who would want to try making some further improved hybrids.



Something else to note - R. allegheniensis is apparently a diploid. So I could have hybrids lingering around somewhere. Should be fun with all of the other Idaeobatus diploids mixed in next year. No idea what will happen with the R. parviflorus plants - also most likely a diploid. R. cockburnianus is most likely a diploid as well.


So, the current Idaeobatus species(or cultivars) that I have:
R. phoenicolasius
R. occidentalis
R. occidentalis Flava - Yellow Black Raspberry
R. leucodermis
R. cockburnianus - Aureus
R. neglectus - Royalty Purple Raspberry
R. idaeus - Encore Red Raspberry

Basically 5 species, not counting R. neglectus which is a hybrid of two of the species listed. All of these can probably cross freely, or some of the offspring will be able to do so.

The R. phoenicolasius is from South Korea.
R. occidentalis and R. leucodermis are both from North America - my types are basically from different sides of it.
R. cockburnianus is endemic to China.
R. idaeus could have types from Asia, Europe and North America mixed in. Same story with R. neglectus.

This gives me a high possibility for disease / fungi immunities. I don't care too much for the flowers in this clade. Maybe I can obtain, or find some diploid blackberry x black raspberry crosses or something. Maybe improve the flower looks...

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #35 on: 2021-06-21, 05:45:23 PM »
I went out and picked a few R. occidentalis berries today (Like 3 berries).

I picked the ones that were soft, even if they weren't a fully developed color. Birds swarm the fruits the moment they are fully ripened.

Going to include an image of some unripe types, they are quite ornamental at this stage, red berries much like red raspberries - except they are still hard at this stage.

The large stemmed R. occidentalis that I moved into the experimental spot has orange colored fruit so far, usually these go from green to red within a day - no orange involved. I'm unsure if these types will ultimately be a different color, which would confirm these as a hybrid. Or as an even more unusual variant.

If I do have an orange / different colored variant, I will probably attempt to hybridize it with the Yellow occidentalis, focusing on keeping the red / white canes along with the large upright growth. R. occidentalis is a sexual plant, attempting to isolate / clone the plant would be against my general goals of these projects, I want these to mostly propagate sexually.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #36 on: 2021-06-23, 12:36:23 AM »
The orange types are becoming a sort of purpleish color. Slightly different from the normal types, haven't tasted them yet though.

Ordered some Rubus seed packets from Sheffields.

Rubus probus - Queensland Raspberry - 193 seeds per packet

Doesn't require cold stratification, in the Idaeobatus clade - not frost hardy. I want to hybridize this with other Idaeobatus species, I will most likely grow these indoors until they flower / fruit.
I want species in this clade from all different countries, continents. There are local types of diseases found in these different countries / regions. And these diverse species could have resistances that the others don't have. Hoping to solve issues before they arise. Growing from seed helps prevent disease as well.

Rubus odoratus - Purple-flowering Raspberry - 177 seeds per packet (Collected in New York, state right next to mine - should perform well enough)

Probably needs some form of stratification. In the Anoplobatus clade. Reportedly a diploid, meaning it couldwork out well enough with the Idaeobatus clade diploids. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287889627_Determining_Ploidy_Level_and_Nuclear_DNA_Content_in_Rubus_by_Flow_Cytometry).

Rubus spectabilis - Salmon Berry - 46 seeds per packet

Also in the Idaeobatus clade, seems to have different flowers than the norm for this clade - unsure of how closely related it is to the others as well. Probably requires stratification. Unsure of how well this species will perform here, the collection locale was Idaho - shouldn't mind being dry for certain periods of time.


I might try to start some of these this year, warm stratify a few, try a few different things with them. I am probably getting some Idaeobatus hybrids next year from my current plants in that clade. Would rather not have these fellows drag behind too much. I would try to plant these "naturally" but Rubus species can sometimes take 2 years to germinate, depending on how mild a winter is. I would also need to keep the areas free of woodland weeds without accidentally pulling seeds out of the soil with them.

Rubus probus should be easy to work with in terms of germination, also with the fact that I can't grow many plants to begin with them being frost intolerant - I can have a bunch of failures without an issue. The fruit shape / size also seems fun. I hope that it is able to hybridize with at least one of the Idaeobatus species. I can't find any mentions of hybrids with this species.

Most of the species that I have bloom in the spring, some plants can continue flowering a bit into the summer.

Some links that were posted on another forum.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00221589.1991.11516186
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bqCLLKUl3E

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #37 on: 2021-06-27, 02:25:03 PM »
I have been harvesting black raspberries the past few days.

Separated some berries off to save seed. Haven't saved bramble seed before. Should be interesting.

First image is berries that I harvested around two days ago for seed saving.

Second image are berries that I saved for seed earlier today.

Third image has some potential blackberry x blackcap raspberry hybrids next to a normal type.

Suppose I will mention why I haven't harvested berries for awhile. Some years ago, these blackberries popped up and I didn't notice right away.
The blackberries spread everywhere, the blackcap raspberries became diseased and died. Eventually the blackcaps returned, the blackberries started getting some sort of rust that the raspberries were immune to(Orange coloration on backside of leaves) and now they are almost entirely gone from the woods.

I sort of just left them alone for awhile due to this. Nothing was really producing all that well.

Now that I have started looking around again, I have found obvious black raspberries that have the growth habit of blackberries, some have more thorns, others have very few. Also the oddly shaped types at the bottom of the second image, top of third image. I found the odd berries on two plants, right next to each other. Not many fruits, lot of flower or fruit drop from what I could tell.

Besides being oddly shaped, they are also quite "bumpy".

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #38 on: 2021-06-27, 03:55:46 PM »
Found some more examples of probable hybrids. Also some comparisons.

First image has a somewhat normal type of R. occidentalis - pretty sure that I have some R. idaeus types around, some berries are fully ripening at red, some berries are sort of a purple color without the white markings around drupelets. Anyway, this is how the berries should look in terms of shape - size.

Second image - I found another probable cross, this time not in a mess of other brambles, so I was able to get an image without possible dropping my phone into the bottom of a thicket...

Last two images are comparisons from both berries.

Hopefully I didn't clog the forum up too much, a blackberry x blackcap could be fun for disease resistant traits though. Also for possible segregating ploidy counts in the offspring - could help me hybridize some other Rubus species.


My main reasoning for collecting all of these seeds - during the time that I let the plants go, a trail was taken over by both Rubus species - along with the trailing blackberry. I want to move the blackberries and raspberries into their own section of the woods - or move the blackberry into full sun where they would be less prone to disease. I will probably cull most of the plants in the trail. This way, I can actually harvest berries much easier next year.

Should also help clear out some pests, disease - whatever else.


I probably can't give out the probable blackberry x blackcap seeds this year. I only have about 5 berries, if all goes well and I get plants out of them, I can try sending seed when they are mature.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #39 on: 2021-07-04, 04:32:12 PM »
Secret Garden Growers sent me an email saying that Rubus linneatus had "expired" during the recent heatwave - my shipping was pushed off due to the heatwave as well - better to wait than have everything burn to a crisp. They mentioned 114-115F weather.

So I should have Rubus cockburnianus, Rubus setchuenensis coming here eventually. Out of these species, R. linneatus is the easiest to source in the U.S.

R. linneatus would have been brought inside anyway. Saves me some room for other things I suppose. Though, they may still send a new plant out, I don't know.

Overall good communication, they emailed me about the delay, also a message about R. linneatus succumbing to the heat.
« Last Edit: 2021-07-04, 09:22:13 PM by Garrett Schantz »