Author Topic: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids  (Read 703 times)

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #15 on: 2021-05-17, 05:47:25 PM »
Oikos order came in today.

Most of the plants are very small - bit pricey for their size. I already read reviews and figured I would get small plants. They probably didn't even need these pots. Would have probably helped lower the shipping price as well. Even the yellow raspberry's pot was too large, the soil just fell off halfway out of the pot with almost no roots down there.

I will just clean the pots and reuse them for other things anyway.

But, from what I read on the site - most are grown from seed. So I guess the price was fine.

The largest plant was also the only plant sent bare root - the Dwarf Red Raspberry. Its newest set of growth reminds me of strawberries suckers rather than a bramble. Probably because its a trailing type.


I ordered these mostly because of Oikos closing. Rather not lose out on any diversity for the bramble project.


A lot of the plants were sealed too tightly which smooshed the leaves. The soil was very wet as - suppose that's fine as it was probably just in case the shipping took awhile. The tags also fell through the gaps in the pots. Had to get those out to figure out what everything was before I planted them.

Not too bad of an experience. Bit pricey for what I got though.


« Last Edit: 2021-05-17, 05:52:01 PM by Garrett Schantz »

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #16 on: 2021-05-17, 05:55:05 PM »
Found a group of plants which are different from the ones I posted before. Close to the main groups locations, these look different from either of the other two species seedlings / young plants.

Very large leaves.

The ones in this group all seem like seedlings, very young.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #17 on: 2021-05-17, 07:44:22 PM »
Some interesting forms / species that could be used to make ornamental hybrids. If it were me - I would probably only breed for the ornamental looking flowers from the spectabalis cultivar - maybe some different leaf types. I wouldn't mess around much with variegation as that seems to result in weaker plants (which could lead to diseases).
Rubus cockburnianus
Rubus pentalobus 'Sonya's Parasol'
Rubus spectabalis 'Olympic Double' / Flore Pleno
Rubus rosifolius var. coronarius
Rubus henryi var. bambusarum
Rubus lineatus
Rubus parvifolius
Rubus saxatilis

Some of these are only available on single websites, or out of country - sometimes only as seed. All of them have traits that could be used in breeding ornamental brambles.



Nicollas

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #18 on: 2021-05-17, 10:55:17 PM »
Rubus setchuenensis is a bush, so no biennal canes for this species

Rubus chingii suavissimus has sweet leaves, can be used as a sweetener

Chance

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #19 on: 2021-05-18, 07:21:51 PM »
Nicolas, have you been able to try out suavissimus? 

Setchuanensus looks interesting, kinda like the idea of a bush.  Lineatus is also a bush.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #20 on: 2021-05-18, 08:40:44 PM »
Can't find many sources for Rubus chingii suavissimus in the U.S. - suppose I could try asking one of the sites if they will do a phytosanitary for seeds or something similar.

Found R. setchuenensis for $12.00 on a website called "Secret Garden Growers". Appears to have good reviews everywhere. They also have R. lineatus for $14.00 and R. cockburnianus for $9.00. The shipping for one of each of these together is $20.25. These would also add up to their minimum purchase of $35.00. Three hard to find plants that I want for reasonable prices...



Keepingitgreennursery is the only seller I could find that sells R. henryi var. bambusarum - $18 for a plant. $45.84 for shipping. Probably be worth it if I bought more plants. Not seeing anything else that I would want though.



Nicollas

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #21 on: 2021-05-18, 10:48:02 PM »
Nicolas, have you been able to try out suavissimus? 

Yes, the leaves was very sweet ! Unfortunatly i lost the plant the first year...

Nicollas

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #22 on: 2021-05-18, 10:51:49 PM »
Can't find many sources for Rubus chingii suavissimus in the U.S. - suppose I could try asking one of the sites if they will do a phytosanitary for seeds or something similar.

Hard to find in Europe too. The german website i've ordered from does not sell it this year. Lubera will sell it so there will be more possibitilies in the near future : https://www.luberaedibles.com/en/the-sweetleaf-raspberry-8211-the-healthy-green-sugar-from-your-own-garden-p128

Nicollas

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #23 on: 2021-05-18, 11:22:34 PM »
R. Suavissimus seeds are available here, and youcan buy a phyto cert too : https://www.asklepios-seeds.de/gb/rubus-chingii-suavissimus-seeds.html

Chance

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #24 on: 2021-05-19, 12:00:13 PM »
So Rubus is fairly open to wide crossing?

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #25 on: 2021-05-19, 01:40:22 PM »
So Rubus is fairly open to wide crossing?

Yes, sometimes if the species are in different subgenus/clade or sects, they will have sterility problems or not hybridize easily. Having different growing forms: creeping, subshrub, cane type - etc, can also cause issues if hybridized.

Andrew's Rocky Mountain Raspberry Breeding Project thread centers around the Anaplobatus Subgenus. Plants in this subgenus generally grow as small hedges / shrubs. They are also thornless(or whatever you want to call them).

I planted Boysenberry because it has species from Europe and North America in it, along with some uncommon subgenus types. Might work well to bridge things over.

R. chingii (From Asia) is in the same subgenus(Idaeobatus) as R. leucodermis(Black Raspberry species from North America) and R. idaeus(Red Raspberry from Europe).


There are also Asexual and Sexual Rubus species. The sexual types require insect pollination. One side of the United States generally has asexual types, the other has mostly sexual types.
 I am unsure of the exact reasoning for this - the wild tomato species also have this happen, along with some other things. Both types can still hybridize, so it probably isn't a barrier.

Some species from Europe, Asia - can also be sexual or asexual.

The offspring of the two types mixed can be asexual or sexual - could probably select for either one.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #26 on: 2021-05-31, 07:16:40 PM »
Figured I would post some more of the large leaved plants. They are probably a hybrid of some sort.

The black raspberries and whatever species of blackberry I have are much smaller leaved than this. One plant has flowers - resembles the blackberries.

The flower bracts are arranged somewhat differently than the normal blackberries.

The first 4 images are the large leaved types.

Last image is a very tall - around 5ft plant. Loaded with flowers, leaves are regular sized on this one. Really stood out with it's height. Managed to get through the other blackberries to get a close image of it.

I found seedlings of the regular blackberry, their aren't large leaved - so it isn't just a thing that happens with young plants.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #27 on: 2021-05-31, 08:20:28 PM »
I have also found mention of Fragaria x Rubus (Raspberry) actual working out online.

https://the-biologist-is-in.blogspot.com/2015/01/hybrid-sterility-and-speciation.html

http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2018/04/strawberry-raspberry-hybrids.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2018/07/strawberry-x-raspberry-hybrid-plant.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2019/02/strawberry-x-raspberry-experiment-update.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2019/02/strawberry-x-raspberry-intergeneric.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2020/07/strawberry-raspberry-hybrid-plants.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2020/09/raspberry-x-strawberry-hybrid-f2-seed.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2021/05/strawberry-raspberry-hybrids-test.html

This is quite interesting to me. The fact that they got the plants tested is even better. Unfortunately I don't have Fragaria vesca plants at the moment.

It should work with F. vesca and R. occidentalis as well. So I might not need a red raspberry.

The R. occidentalis in my area has the white / reddish stems. Even other types usually have blueish stems. R. idaeus has green stems. Not to mention the whole black - blue colored fruit. Even the Yellow Black Raspberry could prove interesting in a cross.

R. occidentalis would be of more interest in breeding to a F. vesca than just purely to R. idaeus. A strawberry with anthocyanin would be interesting.

Making crosses with R. idaeus types from North America and Europe - along with others that have the same ploidy would probably be very nice. Same thing with F. vesca.

This would allow for the best flavors / disease resistances of both parents.

From what the Living-mudflower blog has said, the hybrid appears to somewhat perennial based, same with the Fragaria parent. Runners probably produce even more F1 clones. Quite a nice thing for breeding purposes. The plants don't fruit untill around the second year - same as raspberries.

The hybrid should have sugars from both parents according to the Living-mudflower test results. Also seems to be very "tasty". Selecting the tastiest varieties from both species should give excellent offspring.



Now to mention possible issues:

The first one would be that in this cross, the plants all seem to have mostly Fragaria characteristics. This could be due to a number of reasons - one of them could be that most of the Rubus genes get skipped over and reverted to the Fragaria type. Something similar happens with Female Mule x Male Donkey hybrids - most of the Horse genes are replaced with Donkeys.

Could of course be that the Fragaria genes are carried over mostly by the mother, most of the Rubus genes are skipped over right away. Living-mudflower mentions this as well, along with a related source: www.fao.org/3/a-y5553e.pdf

This may feel familiar to others on here - Solanum chilense's root system is maternal based. Some other wild tomato species behave this way as well.

This could mean that certain disease resistances may not transfer over - or things may end up sterile at higher rates in certain generations. Most diseases/pathogens attack certain genes, having a target gene cross over to Fragaria species without the resistance / immunity could cause the pathogen to adapt and start attacking other Fragaria species(Or Rubus species). Of course the last part could happen even if the resistant gene is present.

R. occidentalis plants usually need pollination from other plants, there are Fragaria species like this as well - might help to maintain diversity / traits from both parents. Unsure if the female / male mechanisms are the same/compatible though. If important genes are being skipped over due to maternal related genes, backcrossing may work - hopefully in either direction.

Mixing in different species that have different ploidy counts would be nice as well. But then the cross may not work very well - would probably need to have the plants tested to try and restore the ploidy along the way.


This falls out of the general "Rubus" hybrids category, I don't really want to make a thread about something that I may not even experiment with or that people have no interest in trying. Seems like Andrew commented on one of the post on the Living-mudflower posts about the hybrid. So there might be a small bit of interest.

I might buy some seeds, start some late strawberry plants which should flower a bit next year. There are some feral F. ananassa plants flowering right now at the same time as R. occidentalis. Just need to make sure that the F. vesca variety that I plant is early enough.

« Last Edit: 2021-05-31, 08:37:01 PM by Garrett Schantz »

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #28 on: 2021-06-02, 03:01:09 PM »
Went out and collected leaves, took photos. Only took leaves from plants that have flower buds or have mature leaves.

I only took the leaves from the native wild plants, no leaves from thimbleberries or anything that I purchased.

4 pack cell is included as a scale. Most people here probably know how large they are.

First image has a bunch of different leaf types from the main thicket of blackberries / raspberries. Some leaves are unusual. The blackberries tend to have 5 leaves. Others are probably black raspberries.

Second image has the odd group that is slightly outside of the main thicket - there are feral strawberries in between them. Leaves in this group are very large, not many "thorns". Leaves / stems are quite fuzzy. Possibly a group of hybrids - or another species has entered the area. Leaves are over twice the size of the blackberries / black raspberries.


Including a new odd specimen that I found near the large leaved plants and strawberries. Appears to be another blackberry, leaves are somewhat off type - plants aren't growing upwards very much. They are also flowering at this small height, branches aren't even large.

Also adding a close up of a flower as well.


Might be able to figure out what some of these are once they flower / fruit.

The black raspberries mostly all have green fruit on them already. A few are still flowering though.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #29 on: 2021-06-02, 03:45:45 PM »
Took some images of the weird slightly upright creeping black raspberry.

Sort of weird looking.

A strawberry is growing pretty much right under it too. Only about three leaves on that though.

Suppose I will keep an eye on this.