Author Topic: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids  (Read 704 times)

Garrett Schantz

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Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« on: 2021-04-01, 11:04:00 AM »
Figured I would make a general Rubus thread. The other Rubus thread is mainly about breeding Anaplobatus species together / Rocky Mountain breeding.

Basically just go out and find areas where any Rubus species overlap, look for things that seem off-type. Take berries - stratify seeds - attempt cuttings etc. I would probably send seeds out if you can't test cuttings for diseases.

This is more of a discussion - reports rather than straight out breeding.

Hybrids between different Rubus groups are common. Sometimes the offspring is sterile, sometimes it isn't.

The main purpose of this thread is to have people find odd variations in certain species - or hybrids. Afterwards they can post the images here - even if the growth types aren't of interest to you they may be of interest to others.

Whatever breeding projects come out of these findings can then become a new thread.

Hoping to spur some interest in Rubus species / breeding.

Newer cultivars for mass cultivation / improved hybrid types can have patents. So I would double check on some of those before attempting to use them for breeding purposes.
« Last Edit: 2021-04-01, 11:32:45 AM by Garrett Schantz »

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #1 on: 2021-04-01, 11:14:49 AM »
Posting some weird types that I found outside - moved them into a more isolated spot - they will still be pollinated by other brambles, but they will mostly share pollen with each other.

Posting a wild form of Rubus occidentalis that grows naturally around here if anyone is wondering. The domesticated types usually have all green or all blue stems. The ones around here are a subspecies I believe.

There is also a large green bramble growing around here. Unsure of what it is - too large for me to ever get close to the group. I also don't want pricked everywhere. Suppose I might go and check once flowers and things form on them.

First image is of a plant that I dug up two days ago. Second image is after I cut it down quite a bit a day later.

It has small thorns(?) - harder to see than larger thorns, the smaller thorns are almost everywhere on the canes. Larger thorned plants around here usually have the thorns here and there. Easier to avoid.

Normally Rubus occidentalis doesn't form huge bunches like this. The canes are also larger than normal types.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #2 on: 2021-04-01, 11:30:28 AM »
First image on this reply is Rubus occidentalis again.

Single huge cane. Growing upright like the other odd type that I posted previously. Very tall.

I trimmed the cane a bit.

Second image is the same plant - closer view. As you can see the thorns aren't everywhere like the other plant was. Easier to avoid the thorns.


Final image is the normal Rubus occidentalis that grows everywhere. Sort of a small vine-like crawling thing.


Normally I wouldn't prune in the spring. But I am trying to get fresh growth on most of these. The large bunching type had a bunch of older / dead growth as well - looked like it had poor air flow between the canes as well.

Bit of black spots near the new growth as well. We had a frost when these started going out of dormancy. So probably frost damage rather than a disease.
« Last Edit: 2021-04-01, 11:34:05 AM by Garrett Schantz »

Woody Gardener

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #3 on: 2021-04-01, 07:42:41 PM »
Thanks for the thought of looking for volunteer Rubus hybrids.
In my garden I have 6 thornless blackberries, a red raspberry, a black raspberry, and Youngberries. Around the garden are thorny wild blackberries and almost thornless dewberries. I'll keep an eye out for hybrids this spring and summer.
I'm not interested in preserving heirlooms.
The best seed bank is the living seed bank which is growing every year in people's gardens.
Joseph Lofthouse

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #4 on: 2021-04-01, 10:59:20 PM »
I ordered three bareroot R. leucodermis from Nativefoodsnursery along with a Thimbleberry (R. Parviflorus) plant.

Ordered a Boysenberry plant as well.

R. leucodermis is closely related to R. occidentalis. If they both flower, they will hybridize. From what I have read, they both reproduce sexually.

Boysenberry has a bunch of different Rubus species in it's lineage: R. idaeus - R. fruticosus - R. aboriginum - R. ursinus x R. idaeus

Some links talking about or mentioning Rubus hybrids:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3477884/
R. ursinus apparently hybridizes easily with a bunch of different species.

http://nativeplantspnw.com/thimbleberry-rubus-parviflorus/
Mentions thimbleberry hybrids.

https://species.nbnatlas.org/species/NBNSYS0000003321
Thimbleberry may hybridize with purpleflowering raspberry (R. odoratus), evergreen blackberry (R. laciniatus), and red raspberry (R. idaeus) where distributions overlap. Hybrids are frequently sterile

Hoping that Thimbleberry and Boysenberry will be able to hybridize. Thimbleberry has been reported to hybridize with some of the species that were used to create Boysenberry.


I could try buying some R.ursinus in the future to see if it will cross with R. leucodermis / R. occidentalis. Boysenberry already has some R.ursinus, so that might work out.

I will be growing these in the same area - but not really too close to each other. Rather not have them share soil borne diseases with each other.

Potential hybrids will be moved away so that they don't introduce a disease from one of their parents.

I am buying canes / plants. So I probably won't see much in terms of fruit until next year. Probably won't see potential hybrids until two years from now.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #5 on: 2021-04-07, 10:09:21 PM »
Three Boysenberry plants arrived today. Planted the smallest one in a shaded / wooded area - somewhat close to other brambles.

The others are in a spot for perennial flowers / edibles.

The R. leucodermis and R. parviflorus plants are on their way.

Oh yeah they have Fragaria chiloensis as well - I ordered a plant. Unsure if I will plant it's runners near the brambles.

Will probably be at least a year before any of these put on any amount of production.
« Last Edit: 2021-04-07, 10:13:21 PM by Garrett Schantz »

Diane Whitehead

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #6 on: 2021-04-08, 08:57:06 AM »
I had Fragaria chiloensis for years - handsome plant, lovely flowers, but just the one sex so I never had a berry.  Does your source specify which sex you will receive?
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
cool mediterranean climate  warm dry summers, mild wet winters,  70 cm rain,   sandy soil

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #7 on: 2021-04-08, 09:32:21 AM »
I had Fragaria chiloensis for years - handsome plant, lovely flowers, but just the one sex so I never had a berry.  Does your source specify which sex you will receive?

It didn't specify, I am growing other Fragaria species which might work well enough. Chiloensis is compatible with virginiana, moschata, vesca, viridis. Also some feral domestic domestics are growing near the brambles.

reed

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #8 on: 2021-04-08, 05:20:52 PM »
Thanks for the thought of looking for volunteer Rubus hybrids.
In my garden I have 6 thornless blackberries, a red raspberry, a black raspberry, and Youngberries. Around the garden are thorny wild blackberries and almost thornless dewberries. I'll keep an eye out for hybrids this spring and summer.
I've seen to examples of what I believe to be tame thornless blackberries crossed to wild ones. One is a patch that is still growing along the back wall of my in-law's barn. It has large delicious berries and awful thorns, even worse than the wild. The plants themselves are also much larger and more upright but you can get into them to pick some.

The other came up inside the wild patch that grows along the edge of my yard and not far from the tame ones in the garden. This thing was the Godzilla of blackberries. Giant incredibly flavored fruits, giant vines and millions of giant thorns. I could only harvest by pulling the 10 foot canes over with a hoe or rake and picking just those on the tip. Attempts to harvest the bulk of the fruits would easily cost the same weight in blood. Gloves were no help, the thorns just grabbed and pulled them off. It was also extremely vigorous and invasive and was rapidly crowding the wild patch out and trying to invade the yard. It was a hell of a fight but with clippers, an ax, a chain saw and some burning, I finally got rid of it.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #9 on: 2021-05-05, 07:35:20 PM »
Oikos is having a Whole Store 25% off sale right now.

Decided to get some more brambles. The sooner I have these, the sooner they flower / fruit and create potential hybrids. Oikos generally plants these from seed, even single plants should be diverse.

Rubus phoenicolasius - Wine Raspberry
Native to China, Japan, and Korea - this one is originally from South Korea according to Oikos. Supposedly a disease free type.
Should have disease resistances not found in native species, this is also self-fertile. I will only allow divisions or plants grown by seed from me to come from this plant.

Rubus occidentalis Flava - Yellow Black Raspberry
This rare raspberry is found with the wild black raspberry where it is identical in all aspects except the fruit is a bright yellow with green canes. The mild flavored fruit is 1/4-1/2 in size and produced in clusters all along the canes.

This is a natural 'variant' or subspecies found in Michigan. There is also a white fruited type of it found on the east side of the state. It can be grown from seed as it comes out true. One of the advantages of this seed selection is the clean fruit which has a kind of pineapple flavor. Grows like the black raspberry in all respects including tip layering.

Selections could be made from this variant as some individuals seem to be more vigorous than others. In our planting areas, we have not found a yellow one that produced black fruit so far but it is possible as they are open pollinated. The canes and leaves are also yellow-green so it is easy to spot 'in the wild' if you are looking for it.

Seeds are available too.

I figured that I would just post the description. I already mentioned that Rubus occidentalis is native to my area - these yellow fruited ones appear to be green stemmed types. Should be interesting to taste whenever it decides to fruit.

Rubus hybrid - Illinois Blackberry
Durable and Delicious Blackberry

Most of the blackberry cultivars are just not hardy enough. Part of the problem lies in the fact that all commercial blackberries are grown in warmer climates and the breeding efforts have focused on thornless plants and adaptation to warmer climates.   Illinois solves this problem. By using selected seedlings from other varieties we were able to create a strain of hardy blackberry fully hardy in our zone 5.  This selection will spread by underground stolons but very slowly if at all.  Height is short reaching 3-4 ft. at tops. Plants will naturally regenerate from the base as well as root cuttings and will replenish the canes as the naturally die out after production for 2-3 years.   Thorns are prevalent on the canes making picking a bit tricky. But yields are great even in part shade of the walnuts we have them under. No apparent disease or insects issues.


This seems to be a mix of blackberry species - should be fairly disease resistant. This has thorns, the taste is supposedly pretty nice though.

Rubus parviflorus - Thimbleberry
Thimbleberry-The Wild Raspberry with the Rich Flavor Well Known in Northern Climates

Of all the raspberries we grow thimbleberry has been the most elusive to fruit. We have tried numerous Michigan seed sources but because of our southern location it just is too warm for the plant to acclimate here. It would grow but rarely fruit much.  That was until we we trialed a Calfornia Sierra mountains strain of it.  This form can tolerate our warm summer weather and the fruiting is much better. And yes the flavor is just like the ones in upper Michigan.

We provide genetically different plants which we believe helps in fruiting. Our planting is made up of 20 or more individual plants of which some are light pink in flower  and others are more speckled. The fruits are produced earlier than our pink thimbleberry usually in early to mid-July. The rich dense raspberry flavor is like no other and the crunchy teeny seeds seem to add to the experience. Fruits are produced on older 3 year canes. Best in sun or part sun areas with dappled shade.

Pot grown plants are produced from seed so each plant is genetically different. This is a bonus for the thimbleberry in terms of fruit yield and overall adaptability.


The description was interesting. Might work well for some others on here. Mostly just want this to cross with my Nativefoodsnursery type (they are based in Oregon). A plant from the mountains mixed with a regular strain could be fun.

Rubus pumila - Dwarf Red Raspberry
Dwarf red raspberry is found in a variety of woodland and field enviroments where it spreading habit is a lot like dewberry. The plants tend to throw a sprout which then touches down and then fruits the following much like othe tip layering raspberries. Dwarf means it rarely exceeds 1 foot in height. The top then flowers and sets a 1/2 inch sized very sweet and delicious red raspberry packed with flavor. It is an easy plant to grow but may need attention to its spreading ability if you are putting it in a more traditional landscape setting.

I found this plant first in Maine where the road cut through the forest had created the perfect opportunity for this tiny yet distinctive raspberry. I was surprised at how delicious these berries were. Each plant had 1-2 berries on a small stalk.

The main root of the plant will age and add to the colony as it spreads. It might be possible to trellis this species much like dewberries to get the maximum effect of yield per given space. We noticed leads of it growing 6 ft. in one season. These can be mowed off I suppose but if trained upward you would have a much larger crop or if you have the room: let it go!


I couldn't find anything on R.pumila at all. Could be R. pubescens or R. arcticus considering where they were collected. I can probably figure out the species once it arrives and eventually flowers / fruits. Probably going to have a hard time hybridizing with anything else that I have.


Oikos also sells Rubus odoratus "hybrid" plants and "Rubus odoratus x parviflorus hybrid swarm" seeds. All Rubus odoratus types are currently out of stock.


They also sell other wild brambles which are also out of stock. Better for me, I don't have to spend a bunch all at once. Can wait till next year, seeds probably at the end of this year if they are restocked.








Jeremy Weiss

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #10 on: 2021-05-06, 06:21:46 AM »
Be careful with the wine berry. It is SUPER weedy and aggressive (Here in New York, it's considered a noxious weed)

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #11 on: 2021-05-06, 06:38:04 AM »
Be careful with the wine berry. It is SUPER weedy and aggressive (Here in New York, it's considered a noxious weed)

Yeah, I'm probably using a net on the single plant, harvesting berries before they are fully ripened. Ripping out volunteers from it that pop up. Could be a weed if I let it go.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #12 on: 2021-05-10, 02:51:37 PM »
Oikos has a bunch of brambles and other rare things.

Their Shipping page says:

Our nursery will permanently close after the spring season. Please see changes to our guarantee this year.  All orders will ship this spring as usual. But no orders will be booked for fall.  Our farm will continue but the nursery will not.

7 Day GUARANTEE:  No more replacement plants shipped in the fall as we have done in the past. Since we are closing the nursery after the spring season we have implemented a one week notification period for the plants you receive from us. We offer a one week guarantee for plants. For losses, please contact us within one week after you have received your order. If you feel the plants are not alive, let us know 7 DAYS of receiving them.  Please use our email: customerservice@oikostreecrops.com  for questions and concerns. Our goal is not to leave you hanging but at the same time, we cannot offer another shipping season for you to get the plants.

Seems like the nursery is closing. Guess I won't be able to get Rubus odoratus / hybrids.

Figured I would mention this here just in case others were thinking of ordering from them.

Nicollas

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #13 on: 2021-05-11, 04:49:16 AM »
Oh noooo :(

Andrew Barney

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Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« Reply #14 on: 2021-05-12, 07:34:12 AM »
oh, noooo