Author Topic: Seeds (heirlooms) of the Illinois and Miami tribes  (Read 442 times)

Buffaloberry

  • M Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
    • Email
Seeds (heirlooms) of the Illinois and Miami tribes
« on: 2021-01-26, 07:26:24 AM »
 Greetings friends and family! Blake here, to address heirlooms from the Illinois Confederation and Miami peoples. I already have two types of Tamaroa corn, Shawnee and Miami white corn, black Mexican corn, Ohio pole bean, Miami-Powatawomi cranberry bean, Miami snap bean Miami tan, spotted and gray pumpkins, Gete Okosomin squash, and Illinois cushaw for my community farm in Chicago, where I educate folks about indigenous food and medicine to help heal the earth. I'm looking for more assistance and guidance on finding more types of corn and other historic crops they grew centuries ago. Please give me your feedback or anything else you like to have or share to guide me, if you're Peoria, Kaskaskia, Wea or Miami descent. Thanks!

Ferdzy

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 253
  • Karma: 14
    • View Profile
    • Seasonal Ontario Food
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: CDN 5/6; USA 4/5
Re: Seeds (heirlooms) of the Illinois and Miami tribes
« Reply #1 on: 2021-01-26, 09:43:06 AM »
Hello Blake; welcome.

Right off the top of my head I can say that I have been growing Potawatami Lima beans, and Potawatomi Rabbit bean. (I see I'm spelling it differently than you are. That's how I got it; but I assume the other spelling is more accurate?) 

Buffaloberry

  • M Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Seeds (heirlooms) of the Illinois and Miami tribes
« Reply #2 on: 2021-01-26, 12:51:03 PM »
 Hey. I appreciate the Potawatomi beans, but you have any more Ohio pole bean, Miami-Powatawomi cranberry pole, and Miami spotted pumpkin, among others? If you have any, let me know. If there's anybody else out there who has this stuff, cause I'm growing a Miami-Peoria-Potawatomi garden at my community farm again this year.  Peace always!

Ferdzy

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 253
  • Karma: 14
    • View Profile
    • Seasonal Ontario Food
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: CDN 5/6; USA 4/5
Re: Seeds (heirlooms) of the Illinois and Miami tribes
« Reply #3 on: 2021-01-26, 01:23:48 PM »
Yeah, that's it for me. Are you looking for seed? Because I have to warn you my beans have anthracnose, aka black plague, bean Covid, the not-so-small bean pox; call it what you like. It isn't good.

Buffaloberry

  • M Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Seeds (heirlooms) of the Illinois and Miami tribes
« Reply #4 on: 2021-01-26, 01:38:53 PM »
 I'll skip till things get better in the meantime. Anybody else has any healthy and fresh seeds that I could use out there at my farm? Be healthy and safe out there!

Joseph Lofthouse

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 364
  • Karma: 45
  • Great Basin desert, Rocky Mountains
    • Open Source Plant Breeding Forum, founder. World Tomato Society, ambassador. Plant Breeder. Yogi. Shaman.
    • View Profile
    • Garden.Lofthouse.com
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dsa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA Zone 5
Re: Seeds (heirlooms) of the Illinois and Miami tribes
« Reply #5 on: 2021-01-30, 02:24:09 PM »
I'm looking for more assistance and guidance on finding more types of corn and other historic crops they grew centuries ago.

This forum is devoted to breeding new varieties for modern climates, diseases, and conditions. Heirloom preservation is off topic.

Buffaloberry

  • M Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Seeds (heirlooms) of the Illinois and Miami tribes
« Reply #6 on: 2021-01-30, 05:14:24 PM »
 Where can we talk about our heirlooms and stuff related to seed preservation? I wanna understand the process better so I can be well informed. Peace!

Joseph Lofthouse

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 364
  • Karma: 45
  • Great Basin desert, Rocky Mountains
    • Open Source Plant Breeding Forum, founder. World Tomato Society, ambassador. Plant Breeder. Yogi. Shaman.
    • View Profile
    • Garden.Lofthouse.com
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dsa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA Zone 5
Re: Seeds (heirlooms) of the Illinois and Miami tribes
« Reply #7 on: 2021-01-30, 06:38:45 PM »
This forum is limited to discussions about plant breeding. Discussions regarding preserving old varieties are off-topic for this forum. The Internet is a big place, I'm sure that there are lots of forums that are interested in heirloom preservation.

A discussion about breeding the cultural heirlooms, so that they could thrive under modern growing conditions, could be interesting. Then they aren't curated ancient heirlooms any more, they are modern evolving varieties.
« Last Edit: 2021-02-01, 09:59:06 AM by Joseph Lofthouse »

Andrew Barney

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 514
  • Karma: 42
  • Northern Colorado, Semi-Arid Climate, USA
    • Pea Breeding, Watermelon x Citron-melon, Purple Foliage Corn, Wild Tomatoes
    • View Profile
    • My blog
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfc / Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 5b
Re: Seeds (heirlooms) of the Illinois and Miami tribes
« Reply #8 on: 2021-01-31, 12:10:35 AM »
One idea that i have seen that is interesting is so called "heirloom-hybrids". I think the idea is that you can create new hybrids from using two heirloom parents. At least i think that is the idea.

I'm all for preserving heirloom crops that have cultural significance to ones self, I am trying to do it with my beans. But i am not blinded that keeping them "pure" will eventually cause them to become extinct even if it takes another 2000 years. But preserving heirlooms in order to save any unique genetics for use for future plant breeding i think is the best of most useful use of most heirloom crops. At one point in time those heirlooms were brand new to those tribes and clans that planted and grew them. Those people sure were not afraid to adopt something new and something better if it came along.

Sometimes i am trying to track down a rare heirloom in order to use it as germplasm in my breeding projects, but not always.

I think it is akin to the difference between "conservation" and "preservation" in wild land forest and animal management. It is always a constant debate about which is better. Is it better to save the nearly extinct Florida cougar by introducing DNA from healthy mountain lions from Texas thus "polluting and destroying" the Florida cougar as it was, or is it better to save what is left rather than let them continue to inbreed and have increasing birthing declines due to bad DNA. They ultimately chose to introduce new lions to help the population. Some have said that the Florida cougar was lost. Others have said they were basically the same species anyway, so nothing was truly lost at all. An interesting topic.

That is my two cents anyway.

reed

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 767
  • Karma: 50
  • Narrow Ridge above the Ohio River zone 6a
    • View Profile
Re: Seeds (heirlooms) of the Illinois and Miami tribes
« Reply #9 on: 2021-01-31, 02:41:10 AM »
I may have some Ohio Pole Beans. When I get into the seed stash to sort and plan this year's garden I will check.

Ohio Pole is, I have to say, about the finest tasting green bean I've ever eaten, if they are picked small, terrible stringy if left too long. Also on the plus side they actually do well in the shade inside a corn patch.  They are however giant vines and very long season. They really do better that way or in some other shade than out in the full sun and I think they bloom a little earlier in shade. I've never heard of it in beans but I think they might be day length sensitive. Lots of traits I like but the giant vine, long season thing doesn't fit my plans.

That flavor is outstanding and I think the apparent preference for shade and even the suspected day length sensitivity are very interesting and perhaps quite useful. If I could move those traits into a less unruly, faster maturing vine I would consider Ohio Pole preserved. I say unruly because the time I grew them in corn they topped out above the corn fell back down, grabbed other stalks and ended tying the patch into a mess you couldn't walk through.

A few years back I planted five seeds in a patch of bush beans without trellis and five more on a trellis with shorter vined pole beans. They trailed along over top of the bush beans just as I'd hoped and they comingled with the shorter pole types. The Ohio Pole plants were well separated from each other,  I was trying to induce a cross between them and the others. Unfortunately I wasn't thinking and didn't get my timing right so most of the bush beans were maturing seed before the Ohio Pole bloomed. I plant a few seeds from those plants each year looking for an off-type but so far no luck.

That probably doesn't help you much but I think I might have a bottle of the pure strain somewhere. They are from the first time I grew them and several years old but I store my seeds well and am sure they would be fine. I might have given them away at a seed swap but if not I will send you a PM when found. I checked the source where I got them originally and they don't have them this year.
« Last Edit: 2021-01-31, 03:04:15 AM by reed »