Author Topic: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?  (Read 1158 times)

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • Karma: 50
    • Botanist, gardener, and preservice science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« on: 2021-01-24, 10:51:48 PM »
I have seven tomato gardens with the 150' separation I currently think necessary to isolate exserted and other promiscuous tomatoes. One of the seven will be a mixed bunch for everything that doesn't get full isolation.

I have two packets Joseph sent from the 2020 Idaho growouts.

1. R18 which may have iffy flavor but was judged to be highly promiscuous.

2. The second packet from the highly evaluated Idaho growouts was the promiscuous crowd favorite with best flavor.

3. My own growout of the 2019 G3 material yielded my favorite seed packets which have bicolors. Flavor seemed ok. Promiscuity not properly evaluated in 2020. My name idea might be "Big Mountain" if any prove to be fully promiscuous.

7. Also have XL which is a nice group of reds from the 2019 G2 material. Flavor varied. Evidence trends toward not fully promiscuous. Not sure if this makes the cut for a 2020 growout. Maybe in the mixed bunch.  Uncertain.

7. The extra fuzzy insect resistant habrochaites LA 2329 will be in the mixed bunch for sure as will the hab mother line from Joseph. I may put one plant of each of the elite lines of promiscuous in hopes of them contributing pollen to the mostly wild hab mother/cytoplasm lines.

4. Have an unnamed short season small blue bicolor I want to advance so it will get a isolation spot. Ideas for name?

5. As yet unnamed small intense colored blue yellow chile shaped tomato that segregated from a Golden Tressette off type with some half strength blue. Will get an isolation spot. Ideas for name?

6.Exserted orange may get an isolation spot if there is enough demand for it to be grown out again.

I suspect I grew enough Big Hill, Exserted tiger, and payette seed in 2020 that none of those will need grown in 2021.

7. I think that's seven. Though in the mixed bunch I will also grow a plant or so of each of my favorites (coyote, big hill, amethyst cream, sweet cherriette, fake galapagense,) probably also a section of peruvianum types and maybe a block of penellii types. Probably a few plants of various species tomatoes. Probably the packet I saved from a exserted pimp type that should have been a Golden Tressette. Hopefully it was an F1 hybrid with the exserted pimp Andrew sent me and will segregate wildly and produce some exserted yellow pimp like cherries! Will also reprise my direct seeded experiment here, probably entirely with 2020 promiscuous lines seed I grew myself as these may also contribute pollen to the hab cytoplasm promiscuous lines.
« Last Edit: 2021-01-29, 01:53:46 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Garrett Schantz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 378
  • Karma: 16
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #1 on: 2021-01-25, 12:39:25 AM »
The "extra fuzzy" habrochaites seems to be slow growing. Started one in late September and its still a few inches tall. About the same rate as a chilense I am also growing. I have a self pollinating chilense, possibly a hybrid fruiting right now as well. Seeds I obtained for it were brown, some were the same color as domestic's seed.
« Last Edit: 2021-01-25, 12:41:55 AM by Garrett Schantz »

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • Karma: 50
    • Botanist, gardener, and preservice science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #2 on: 2021-01-25, 06:53:39 AM »
The "extra fuzzy" habrochaites seems to be slow growing. Started one in late September and its still a few inches tall. About the same rate as a chilense I am also growing. I have a self pollinating chilense, possibly a hybrid fruiting right now as well. Seeds I obtained for it were brown, some were the same color as domestic's seed.

The strain I am referring to, accession number LA2329, is not particularly slow growing for a habrochaites. A single plant also is sometimes an off type. I sometimes get a weird slow grower of any sort of tomato. Kept one once of a domestic, got a fruit the second year.

I've grown two uncrossed chilense strains both in 2019. Haven't gotten seed back yet. The one plant that survived did not accept pollen from anything else I grew.
« Last Edit: 2021-01-29, 01:55:54 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Garrett Schantz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 378
  • Karma: 16
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #3 on: 2021-01-25, 10:23:59 AM »
Some chilense images, and the hairy habrochaites strain I obtained.
 Taller chilense is quite large now, grew quickly - leaves starting to dry up. Watering issue most likely - this was just a test anyway at the beginning. But it also has some fruit. Flowers were quite small, assuming this was a selfing chilense crossed with a domestic, or just a small flowering selfing chilense. I will try growing some in pots eventually, moving them outside whenever bees are usually around. Helps me keep the soil in a controlled condition.
 Also a smaller chilense.
 The hairy habrochaites I am growing seems to rather hate the lighting I put it in which could be why its growing slowly. The marking on the leaves seem to indicate a dislike for lighting conditions in other wilds I have grown.

 Looking forward to your growing updates in the future.

Andrew Barney

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 528
  • Karma: 43
  • Northern Colorado, Semi-Arid Climate, USA
    • Pea Breeding, Watermelon x Citron-melon, Purple Foliage Corn, Wild Tomatoes
    • View Profile
    • My blog
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfc / Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 5b
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #4 on: 2021-01-27, 11:48:05 PM »
Sounds like a good list William. Excited to get back into full wild tomato swing this next summer. We will see what I can squeeze in. Gonna prioritize the peruvianum hybrid lines from ARS GRIN. And some F3 pennellii hybrids. And any galapagense / cheesmaniae plants I can to replenish my seed. I like how you call that one "false galapagense" lol, I think I will use that. Still one of my favorites. I've heard Coyote is indeed good. A small yellow pimp. would be way cool.

I was gonna reply that I remembered something about a brown seed gene from tgrc. I stumbled upon this interesting paper when I googled it.

https://academic.oup.com/aob/article-pdf/80/4/469/7983040/800469.pdf

The article has some pictures of peruvianum hybrid leaves and fruit. Look awfully similar to my pennellii hybrids. Makes me wonder if they can even be distinguished. Also makes me wonder if my pennellii was pollinated by peruvianum in the first place. Or vice versa.

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • Karma: 50
    • Botanist, gardener, and preservice science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #5 on: 2021-01-28, 05:45:54 AM »
Garrett: My hairy habrochaites LA2329 is much hairer than your photo AND the hairiness is a side point the main point of it is it is chemically resistant to insects. Still want a hairy bicolor fruit someday though.

Andrew peruvianum should accept penellii pollen. Though tried last year and the specific strains involved was a no. But is possible. Article you shared could be valuable to us.

« Last Edit: 2021-01-29, 01:54:48 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Andrew Barney

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 528
  • Karma: 43
  • Northern Colorado, Semi-Arid Climate, USA
    • Pea Breeding, Watermelon x Citron-melon, Purple Foliage Corn, Wild Tomatoes
    • View Profile
    • My blog
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfc / Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 5b
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #6 on: 2021-01-28, 08:57:55 AM »
Garrett: My hairy hab is much hairer than your photo AND the hairiness is a side point the main point of it is it is chemically resistant to insects. Still want a hairy bicolor fruit someday though.

Andrew peruvianum should accept penellii pollen. Though tried last year and the specific strains involved was a no. But is possible. Article you shared could be valuable to us.

Good to know. The solitary bees were jumping from pennellii to peruvianum to habrochiates all summer, so chances are good something crossed at some point even if only at 1%.

Someone bought me a Mason bee house, so I just ordered California orchard Mason beds which should be active in the summer. Should help with pollination in my current neighborhood with fewer native bees here. Might plant some sunflowers and corn to attract more native bees fo the tomato flowers.

Have you ever grown the domestic 'peach' tomato? They have fuzzy fruit. Interesting, but not much flavor. Might be interesting in a hab cross.

Garrett Schantz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 378
  • Karma: 16
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #7 on: 2021-01-28, 05:35:17 PM »
Garrett: My hairy hab is much hairer than your photo AND the hairiness is a side point the main point of it is it is chemically resistant to insects. Still want a hairy bicolor fruit someday though.

Andrew peruvianum should accept penellii pollen. Though tried last year and the specific strains involved was a no. But is possible. Article you shared could be valuable to us.

Believe my type has some insect resistance. I was growing my crosses around a interspecies bean germination / plant test which attracted aphids(Too large of a pot - became waterlogged). They went onto my habro crosses a small bit - they didn't care for them though. The hairy habrochaites though, not a single one, even with it being weakened due to the apparent unfavorable lighting. Aphids usually prefer sickened/weak plants.
 Either way I will probably try crossing it with one of the exserted tomatoes and to Neandertomate.
 The hairs on the fruit of my type apparently don't rub off like what seems to be the norm. Can't tell anything for sure yet.
 
 Habrochaites has quite a lot of diversity within the species, looking forward to whatever results you have with bug resistances.

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • Karma: 50
    • Botanist, gardener, and preservice science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #8 on: 2021-01-28, 09:48:12 PM »
No peach tomato for me yet, I get fuzz from hab crosses though.

I agree S. habrochaites has a great deal of within species diversity. Each accession could be thought of as a different thing.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Joseph Lofthouse

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 371
  • Karma: 45
  • Great Basin desert, Rocky Mountains
    • Open Source Plant Breeding Forum, founder. World Tomato Society, ambassador. Plant Breeder. Yogi. Shaman.
    • View Profile
    • Garden.Lofthouse.com
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dsa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA Zone 5
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #9 on: 2021-01-28, 11:17:28 PM »
If I were starting over on the Promiscuous tomato project, I wouldn't choose LA1777 as a parent. (It is small and has flowers that are hidden in the foliage). I would choose one of the varieties with more promiscuous flowers, the larger more succulent stems, and the huge leaves. The first two photos compare LA1777 to a different habrochaites strain. The third photo shows the flowers of the other strain.

It's hard to start over, now that we are 7 generations into the project.
« Last Edit: 2021-01-28, 11:23:13 PM by Joseph Lofthouse »

Nicollas

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 84
  • Karma: 10
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #10 on: 2021-01-29, 02:12:45 AM »
At least it is proved that LA1777 has cold tolerance and resistance to late blight which is pretty cool

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • Karma: 50
    • Botanist, gardener, and preservice science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #11 on: 2021-01-29, 01:52:35 PM »
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JRKSzWSPQnw&t=918s

Here is the video that got me interested in this new line at 13:22 you can see it is LA 2329.

So I am doing precisely what Joseph just said would be hard and in a small portion of my garden resetting the promiscuous project back to roughly generation one. Though this is in parallel with the 75% hab population Joseph has founded.

I grew LA 2329 for the first time in 2020. Started the plants, not particularly early and planted them in a portion of my 2020 tomato garden reserved for everything else. This sector ended up having pretty bad soil which dwarfed the plants. There were ~about ten plants or so immensely hairy. Only got seed production from 2 plants or perhaps 20% of the population before killing frost which I staved off for a bit with a sprinkler. I planted the 75% wild with hab cytoplasm and the 25% wild that proved mostly wild type in the rows immediately to the east and west. The poor fruit set was not equivalent to flower set. So 80% of the plants were either pollen donors only or did not have any reproductive output. This suggests also that they did not accept pollen from any of the possible donors. By contrast the 75% wilds with habrochaites cytoplasm produced abundant seed.

Several questions arise for me:

Are LA 2329 and LA 1777 biologically compatible?

If I get such poor seed set will I get the desired traits from LA 2329 which may be necessary to recreate the research in the video?

Has any crossing occurred between the LA 2329 lines and those descended from LA 1777 in my 2020 garden?

What if the two seed setters were selfish selfers?

I did send a very small amount of the precious LA 2329 G2 seed to Joseph and Andrew.

My plan is to grow out more of the seed from the original packet plus that I saved to see if G1/G2 will answer any of the above questions. I will grow it again in the everything else garden probably with 75% wild again and perhaps one plant of R18 and one plant of the best promiscuous flavor. I'll probably do a direct seeded row again in the same isolation garden with some of the  excess 75% domestic seed I saved in 2020. They may contain some promiscuous individuals.

If the LA 1777 descended individuals can contribute pollen to LA 2329 it should be interesting to see if it takes seven generations again. The availability of existing promiscuous lines might hypothetically cut down the timeline. Though critically we would also want to transfer the interesting traits to the new line and not just swamp the genome and keep the cytoplasm.
« Last Edit: 2021-01-30, 04:54:33 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • Karma: 50
    • Botanist, gardener, and preservice science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #12 on: 2021-01-29, 06:25:30 PM »
Re: 2021 direct seeding experiment. I have my eye on a bag that has 0.3 oz of promiscuous project bicolors unevaluated for level of promiscuity. I easily have enough bicolors in smaller packets to do the isolation garden so the estimated 2400 seeds in the 0.3 oz is probably surplus and a good number for direct seeding.  I have 0.6 oz of red XL from the promiscuous project but the bicolor flavor is superior and the XL strain is suspected of selfing. I may grow a little XL perhaps from the first ripe. Not much though certainly not 4800 seeds worth!
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • Karma: 50
    • Botanist, gardener, and preservice science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #13 on: 2021-03-16, 01:35:24 PM »
LA2329 is in the Sodium Hypochlorite solution...
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 967
  • Karma: 50
    • Botanist, gardener, and preservice science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: What Tomato Lines to growout and isolate in 2021?
« Reply #14 on: 2021-03-16, 09:23:53 PM »
Looks like I planted:

36 R18 yellow, iffy flavor, highly promiscuous

48 promiscuous S35/S36/S37 best flavor 2020

32 promiscuous project bicolors from 2020 unevaluated for promiscuity in 2020. This is the group I plan to direct seed as well but these 32 will get spaced out.

72 cells of LA2329 though more than 100 seeds from the original packet and the 2020 growout. These I plan to have at the house.

32 Mission Mountain Sunrise a pretty short season blue bicolor descended most probably from Blue Gold and a unknown Lofthouse potato leaf. Regular leaved.

12 of the chile shaped blue descendents of Golden Tressette

32 exserted orange for seed production.

12 of the exserted pimpinillifolium X Golden Tressette?

6 Lofthouse habrochaites cytoplasm plants which produced no elites in 2020. These will be with the other habrochaites.

6 exserted tiger- just for interplanting with other breeding material.

6 Big Hill

6 Coyote

6 Amethyst Cream

6 Bosque Bronze- sampler packet from J&L last year I didn't manage to plant.

1 clump LA1404 S. cheesemanii second generation

1 clump LA 1410 S. galapagense second generation

1 clump 2020 S. arcanum

1 clump 2020 S. peruvianum Lofthouse x Barney

316 cells planted six trays. Only 18 of those are from known red parents and some of those may segregate to yellow. All I have room for with some things my wife is growing. Might get another light set up and have room for my usual eight trays.

I didn't have any of the fake galapagos or sweet cherriette seed handy at the house. Maybe I'll direct seed those and some Lizzano descendants.
« Last Edit: 2021-03-16, 10:48:57 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days