Author Topic: Phaselous Species / Crosses  (Read 907 times)

Jeremy Weiss

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #15 on: 2021-04-09, 02:56:04 PM »
The issue is I can't get the seeds to GERMINATE. So far all of it has simply rotted. I think I try drier soil.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #16 on: 2021-04-09, 03:08:32 PM »
I usually germinate potential phaseolus hybrids out of soil - paper, whatever. They are easy to transplant into soil at the earliest stage.

« Last Edit: 2021-04-09, 03:43:51 PM by Garrett Schantz »

Andrew Barney

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #17 on: 2021-05-14, 12:14:10 PM »
I planted the few seeds I had of what I thought were from those runner bean x common bean hybrids. I'll let you all know if I get a crop this season and I'll try to take pictures if i do.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #18 on: 2021-05-18, 06:24:21 PM »
I ordered some Phaseolus polystachios seeds from Oikos.

What their website says about it:

"Wild Perennial Bean Seeds-the thicket bean

Wild bean seeds are hard to find. This is partly to blame for the exploding nature of the seed pods during harvest as well as lack of interest in the gardening community.  We grew our population of thicket beans over the course of a decade. Each year we learned a little bit more about this unique bean, its growing habits, harvesting and even taste testing.  In 2017 we harvested 2 ounces of dry seeds. In 2018 we harvested  1 lb. 10 ounces. It turns out that once established the thicket bean produces copious amounts of beans. We also discovered that thicket bean will fruit in one year from seed but the yields are lower. This will speed up our so called 'breeding' work of the plant itself without hybridization. In 2020 we harvested over 4 lbs of beans. This is a record!

Here is how to germinate the seeds:  They have a hard seed coat. To increase the germination, soften the seed coat by using a fine grit sandpaper and gently rub it on the seed. This will scar the seed and remove some of the shine. This will then make them imbibe water easily and then sprout. You can then plant directly outside under 1/2 inch of soil. The seeds throw a taproot first and then the top will come up slowly over the course of a month. Or you can soak your seed or put in a damp paper towel until sprouting begins and then plant.  Roots can go to 18 inches deep in one year and form a carrot type root.

Diseases of thicket bean include leaf rust which will defoliate and weaken the plant."



The part about the yields increasing after the first year interested me because I remembered that a lot of us are growing another perennial Phaseolus species - granted we grow it as an annual due to climate restrictions.

The species: Phaseolus coccineus

Has anyone tried growing these in pots - cutting them back in the winter and covering them to check for yield changes the following year? Would hate to just say "this isn't productive", when it could be very productive as a perennial.

I know there are already people attempting to breed cold hardy hybrids / cultivars of this species.


I only have one seed of Phaseolus polystachios from Prairie Moon left. The others didn't sprout indoors, rotted last year. Hopefully this one will sprout - the others that I have are more of a speckled tan-brown.


It has been in the 60F - 80F range recently. About time for beans I suppose. Really need to put up a trellis soon - I usually don't do too many beans, some other vining vegetables go up it as well.


Oikos sent 35 Wild Perennial Beans. More than what Prairie Moon or Experimental Farm Network sent.

I will probably use some of the Oikos seed as tests. Planting some under an elderberry up in the woods. Actually right next to the Rubus project plants, also a large group of Rumex obtusifolius that I moved for a future breeding project. It is possible that the obtusifolius plants will help out future volunteers - prevent deer from nibbling at seedlings, some other nice things.

reed

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #19 on: 2021-05-18, 07:52:20 PM »
I've found Phaseolus polystachios to be easy to sprout, both in the cold frame and just direct planted. I have never done any stratifying of any kind. I have two strains, one given to be from a fellow in N Carolina and the other form a very large wild patch growing not far from my house. The local ones have larger, lighter colored seeds. They are established on a section of my garden fence and come back stronger every year. They also come up as weeds a good distance from the fence. Seeds really scatter when the pods shatter.

I plant a couple lima beans near them each year and then save and plant the Lima seeds but as of yet I have not discovered any hybrids. I think that is at least partly because the Phaseolus polystachios blooms very late, so much so that the Limas are pretty much done by then. Any remaining Lima flowers that could be pollinated by the wild beans hardly have time to mature before frost.  Sometimes the wild ones don't mature before frost either but it doesn't hurt them as long as it is just frost and not a hard freeze. 

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #20 on: 2021-05-18, 08:06:39 PM »
I only grew the Prairie Moon strain before, could just be that type is hard to sprout.

Assuming the stratification just aids germination rates for the most part.

Threw a few Oikos type under the base of the elderberry earlier. There are a bunch of dying pines that they could grapple onto, also some feral sweet cherries.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #21 on: 2021-06-10, 12:38:23 AM »
Alright, beans are germinating. Planted them later than I would have liked - better than having them rot earlier in the season due to heavy bursts of rain.

Might as well mention - not doing any bush beans this year. Closest things to bush beans that I planted would be tepary beans, which are different enough.

List of varieties that I planted:

Vulgaris:
Kentucky Wonder
Blue Lake Pole
Scalzo Italian Bean
New Mexico Bolitas
Succotash - Off-type only
Fort Portal Jade - Half Climber
Slippery Silks - Red bean / pod
Pebble Bean - Half Climber
Black Turtle - Half Climber
Half White Sugar
Lohrey's Old Tasmanian - Supposedly has salt taste
Autumn Zebra - Supposedly tastes like kombu seaweed, if nothing else the pods and beans look nice.
Marvel Of Venice - Yellow pod, Bakercreek's type has black beans - commercial types are white seeded
Pakistan White Shooter - Tepary sized beans
Birdsong Mountaingem

Runners:
Austrian Kaeferbohnen
Golden Sunshine
Scarlet Runner Bean
Painted Lady Improved
Sunset

Limas:
Alma's PA Dutch Purple Burgundy Bean
Christmas Lima

Phaseolus polystachios:
Experimental Farm Network
Oikos
Prariemoon

Tepary beans:
Lofthouse Landrace Tepary Beans - Phaseolus acutifolius var. tenuifolius
Blue Speckled - Phaseolus acutifolius var. tenuifolius
Santa Catalina Wild Tepary - Phaseolus acutifolius var. latifolius
Sycamore Canyon Wild - Phaseolus acutifolius var. latifolius

Phaseolus acutifolius var. tenuifolius are Lowland types, twine a bit - but they don't really seem to climb as poles do.
Phaseolus acutifolius var. latifolius are Highland types, Nativeseeds says "Plant will twine and climb" in reference to these types. This type is also undomesticated.

Strophostyles helvola:
Experimental Farm Network
Prariemoon

This one isn't a Phaselous species, seems to be closely related though - has lot of traits that would be nice to introduce into Phaselous species. There is a perennial Strophostyles species as well.


Might as well post some images. I didn't label any of these, intermixed them. Some of these are used for different purposes, might have to mark a few plants if I plan on using any of them. Mostly hoping to find naturally occurring hybrids - also getting seed for next year.

Not posting any runners until they are larger - unless I notice an obvious cross.

Starting off with the off-type Succotash offspring. They were climbing more than the other Succotash beans, which are usually half climbers. I can't remember if the seedlings looked like this, might plant a few from the packet to test that out. Anyway, the plants have purplish stems, leaf veins. The cotyledons also have a purple tinge to them. The cotyledons on these type take a pretty long time to dry out and fall off - I grew a few indoors as a test months ago. Usually cotyledons on vulgaris species dry up, become wrinkled rather quickly. The purpling in the leaves and stems could be useful as an indicator of the bean's color in crosses.

The third image has a Slippery Silks bean seedlings, has some red veins on the leaves - similar to how the Succotash has purple veins. Unsure if this is tied to the pod color or the bean color. Possibly the bean color as the Succotash bean has green pods.

Unsure of what the glossy leaves types in the 4th image are as I didn't label anything. Could be limas.

4th image is looks like one of the Phaseolus acutifolius var. latifolius types. Both of the types had 50 seeds per packet, I decided not to scarify them and select away from hard seeded coats as Joseph did. These are smaller than domesticated tepary, eating them would be difficult. Not to mention they seem to burst when dry.
Probably the Santa Catalina Wild Tepary, leaves look quite slender. Camera didn't focus too well on it.

Figured I would mention the leaves being different from normal tepary beans so that people wouldn't tell me that it isn't a tepary - according to Nativeseeds it is. Nativeseeds has a mature plant climbing a pole on their website - which is a habit that I prefer.

Hoping to cross lowland and highland types together. I can obtain larger tepary beans from the lowland types - along with drought resistance, pole-like growth from highland types. I would also save offspring that don't climb for others on here who prefer the standard growth habit of tepary beans.


No idea if I have any hybrids, I have only just recently started inspecting plants more closely.

I have some cucumbers on one half of the panel trellis, melothria scabra / pendula on the other corner. Threw a few Cucurbita pepo var. texana seeds in various areas as well. I will probably make the cucumbers and squash grow on the ground. They are on separate sides so that they don't touch and spread pests. The beans shouldn't care. The standard tepary beans don't have any cucurbits seeds around them.
« Last Edit: 2021-06-10, 12:42:18 AM by Garrett Schantz »

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #22 on: 2021-06-10, 12:21:00 PM »
I noticed an unusually small bean. Appears to have 3 cotyledons. I believe this would make this plant a possible triploid. Most triploid legumes are sterile.

At first I thought - "maybe one of the cotyledons split?" But I bent the plant over a bit, found where the cotyledons connect to the plant - the two largest ones are matched up almost perfectly. The other is in the middle of where the two meet - not touching either of them.

I took an image close up - and far away, just to show you all how small this plant is compared to others of the same age.

Probably not Phaseolus acutifolius or Phaseolus polystachios - I didn't plant those in that section.

If it manages to set seed, I could try creating a triploid P. vulgaris just for the heck of it - if the trait is inheritable. No idea why I would do that though.

There does appear to be a chunk missing from one half of the beans, maybe one of them somehow split and regrew before or during germination? Whatever the case is, the plant is now very small.
« Last Edit: 2021-06-10, 12:22:43 PM by Garrett Schantz »

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #23 on: 2021-06-13, 10:12:32 AM »
I did say that I wouldn't do bush beans this year - changed my mind. Most of my tomatoes died, so I figured I would replace the area with something. Also figured that I have a bunch of bush beans which I bought and never planted over the past few years... Suppose some people here might be interested in them.

The varieties: (planted some "half runners" which barely climbed the bottom of my trellis as well)

Provider Bean
Royal Burdundy
Royalty Purple Pod
Cherokee Wax
Borlotto Di Vigevano Nano
Pinto (From multiple sources)
Black Turtle
Mrociumere
Flambeau
Colorado River
Birdsong Quail
Red Swan
Buerre De Rocquencourt

If these all grow - or mostly grow, I can probably share some seed, unsure if I will grow these again next year.

Both of my Lima varieties have at least 2 - 4 seedlings that have popped up.

Both wild teparies have came up as well - surprising amount came up without any scarification. Some domestic tepary beans also germinated.

Nothing on the Thicket beans yet.

Diane Whitehead

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #24 on: 2021-06-13, 01:17:47 PM »
I usually buy lots of different vegetables and only grow a few from each packet, keeping the rest for future use.  I'm finding that white beans don't survive long, even ones from 2018 have turned to mush instead of sprouting. Dark ones keep longer.

 I've been emptying packets and tossing the seeds into the garden, thinking maybe squirrels might like to eat them.  They don't.
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
cool mediterranean climate  warm dry summers, mild wet winters,  70 cm rain,   sandy soil

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #25 on: 2021-06-13, 01:50:03 PM »
Yeah, I usually only toss a few types out of each new variety to see if it will do well. Rather not waste space on things that may not do well.

The Bush beans I did a lot of this year, just to replace some space. Otherwise there would be a gap of weeds in the garden.

White beans tend to rot easier than the other types for me as well.

I had quite a few succotash beans from the original packet, along with large harvests from the past two years.

Most of my beans that I planted this year.are just to try and obtain hybrids - having them close together, so I planted almost entire packets.

I probably won't even eat the limas and wild tepary beans, so they will probably end up giving me more seed than I can use