Author Topic: True Garlic Seed (TGS)  (Read 1617 times)

Richard Watson

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 497
  • Karma: 29
  • South Island - New Zealand
    • View Profile
    • Sentinels Group Seeds
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Cfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 9
True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« on: 2018-10-14, 01:04:58 PM »
Given that there's quite a number of grower members here are already having fun playing around with true garlic seed breeding, (though one member namely me has yet to get to first base) a thread devoted to it may as well be kicked into gear  :)

This has to be the year surely that someone from NZ can achieve TGS, though it did inadvertently happened to a gardener a few years in the North Island who thankfully not knowing the importance of what the small black seed was that fall out on her sorting table sowed it and ended up producing bulbs, I have some of that growing in my garden. Each year its seems we (we as in a NZ FB group) are getting closer, last summer a few of us got seed, but were hollow.... sliding into first base but getting tagged out.  ::)
Changeable climate manly during winter & spring - just under 500mm average yearly rainfall. 20 years of soil improvements plus sub soil top soil reversal means my garden beds are about half metre deep. Below that is 100's of metres of alluvial out wash from the Southern
alps

Lauren

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 150
  • Karma: 15
  • Utah, USA, 4000 ft
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #1 on: 2018-10-14, 07:07:09 PM »
I've never gotten there either, but I did find some interesting information. If I remember the article correctly, garlic has double day-length triggers--one for seeding, one for bulbs, with the seeding happening first in natural garlic. Over time growers tweaked the breeding until the bulb happened first, so the seeds never developed. I think the key would be tricking the plant into creating the stalk before the bulb. It's a desert plant (?) adapted to mild wet winters and long hot summers. So I'm going to try cool vs warm ground (black plastic around one group, mulch around another) and tight vs loose spacing to try stressing the plant into producing seeds rather than bulbs.

Diane Whitehead

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 229
  • Karma: 23
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #2 on: 2018-10-21, 11:13:12 AM »
One year I tried, but usually I eat all the scapes.

Next year I will try to remember to leave some uneaten.
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
cool mediterranean climate  warm dry summers, mild wet winters,  70 cm rain,   sandy soil

Andrew Barney

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
  • Karma: 42
  • Northern Colorado, Semi-Arid Climate, USA
    • Pea Breeding, Watermelon x Citron-melon, Purple Foliage Corn, Wild Tomatoes
    • View Profile
    • My blog
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfc / Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 5b
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #3 on: 2020-11-02, 09:29:34 PM »
https://nikitovka.com/en/214-fruits-and-vegetables?order=product.name.desc&page=6

Just saw two true garlic seed varieties from this Ukraine seed company.

Richard Watson

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 497
  • Karma: 29
  • South Island - New Zealand
    • View Profile
    • Sentinels Group Seeds
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Cfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 9
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #4 on: 2020-11-02, 10:02:06 PM »
They look like bulbils in the round photo on each variety, I take it that is what they are selling.
Changeable climate manly during winter & spring - just under 500mm average yearly rainfall. 20 years of soil improvements plus sub soil top soil reversal means my garden beds are about half metre deep. Below that is 100's of metres of alluvial out wash from the Southern
alps

whwoz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 124
  • Karma: 12
    • View Profile
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #5 on: 2020-11-03, 12:19:50 AM »
Would agree with you there Richard. Considering some of the reports about tomatoes grown from their seed lately not being what they were supposed to be, definitely buyer beware...

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 255
  • Karma: 14
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #6 on: 2020-11-05, 07:23:26 PM »
Yes, they have mislabeled it as 'true' garlic seed.  These are not new varieties from true seeds.  I know Lyubasha, which I tried to grow from bulbils here, but it didn't make it.

I made some attempts to get true garlic seed here, but then realized, with our very short season there was really a remote chance of succeeding.  Even bulbils won't often fully develop in the field, you have to pull the plants and bring them inside to finish up when it's already season over here.

Richard Watson

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 497
  • Karma: 29
  • South Island - New Zealand
    • View Profile
    • Sentinels Group Seeds
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Cfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 9
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #7 on: 2020-11-06, 10:53:54 AM »
Yes, they have mislabeled it as 'true' garlic seed.  These are not new varieties from true seeds.  I know Lyubasha, which I tried to grow from bulbils here, but it didn't make it.

I made some attempts to get true garlic seed here, but then realized, with our very short season there was really a remote chance of succeeding.  Even bulbils won't often fully develop in the field, you have to pull the plants and bring them inside to finish up when it's already season over here.
wow you really must have a short season.

Its the rust that's a real headache for us in this country, I'm spraying my plants with baking soda every few days and so far so good, scapes are just starting to show, but, a very rare wet summer is likely so that wont help the battle fighting rust.
Changeable climate manly during winter & spring - just under 500mm average yearly rainfall. 20 years of soil improvements plus sub soil top soil reversal means my garden beds are about half metre deep. Below that is 100's of metres of alluvial out wash from the Southern
alps

Dominic J

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 72
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
    • Lochaber Experimental Hopyard
    • Email
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #8 on: 2020-12-02, 07:58:53 PM »
I've got bulbils planted, one day, maybe I'll get TGS as well from them.

Kevin Collignon

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: 1
    • New to Landrace vegetables and plant breeding and by most standards new to Gardening. But I am jumping in with both feet I am her to learn.
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: CFA
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA 8b / 9a
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #9 on: 2021-03-21, 10:38:06 AM »
I currently have a little over 600 cloves that I planted the end of last year all of them are various hardnecks that I have grown and collected from. I have a few at this point that are send out scapes
Full time small scale farmer and aspiring landrace plant breeder. Current breeding focus for the season are Tomatoes, Melons, watermelons, and potatoes.

clweeks

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 3b
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #10 on: 2021-06-09, 09:36:08 AM »
I bought five lots of TGS from Garlicana in early spring and stratified them for a month in the fridge. Four seeds, all from one lot, germinated and then died. (I think I killed them by hardening off too abruptly.) I've left the 1020 tray they're in outside. Since that time, one thing that looks like an allium sprout has come up in that same lot. Nothing at all from any of the other lots. But I'm looking forward to planting that one out if it remains alive.

Diane Whitehead

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 229
  • Karma: 23
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #11 on: 2021-06-09, 10:15:50 AM »
I clicked your link to Garlicana, which is in SW Oregon

Their article is very interesting.  They have pledged any new varieties to OSSI.

http://www.garlicana.com/garlic-varieties/true-garlic-seeds/
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
cool mediterranean climate  warm dry summers, mild wet winters,  70 cm rain,   sandy soil

Andrew Barney

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
  • Karma: 42
  • Northern Colorado, Semi-Arid Climate, USA
    • Pea Breeding, Watermelon x Citron-melon, Purple Foliage Corn, Wild Tomatoes
    • View Profile
    • My blog
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfc / Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 5b
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #12 on: 2021-06-09, 12:44:20 PM »
Im starting to suspect my seed stratification in the refrigerator is not good enough. Im thinking I need to start using the freezer.

I had some raspberry seeds that failed last year but came up this year. Had other seeds fail this year that should have worked. I suspect they will sprout next year

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 255
  • Karma: 14
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #13 on: 2021-06-09, 02:11:44 PM »
Indeed the Garlicana site is very interesting.  All their comments about the different varieties and families of garlic are food for thought.
I notice that there is Porcelain parentage in some of their lines, which is kind of exciting since the Porcelains do really well here.  Besides the fact that genetically the different varieties are said to be identical.   So bringing some new blood into that branch is a great thing to do....   I have noticed that different porcelains grown here have seemed to converge on one phenotype, given the same conditions.   Although several also failed to size up for me or thrive.  They say they are susceptible to virus but our main crop varieties seem the opposite, extra resilient.
I have a multi-year project growing out garlic from bulbils, which I received from a friend in Northern Finland.  There are a number of Marbled varieties, several glazers, another Purple Stripe and a Creole among them, and really interesting to see not just the varieties but trends in different families, in how they respond to our trying conditions which are different every year.   
Overall the two Glazers are really promising, early, very healthy, and sizing up fast; the Purple Stripe is coming on much faster than my previous two (Shvelisi and Persian Star, which took many years to get full size), and the Creole is also looking great, much to my surprise.   At the moment these and my Porcelains are looking fully green in spite of the dry May, while every single Marbled has some yellow tips - including one I grew before from a different source.
On the plus side, the Marbled are sizing up faster than any others, except for our own porcelains which are pretty quick and well worth growing out.
Anyway it is nice to be growing out a lot of different types and learning about them.   
Not all have survived by any means.  I had a couple surviving last fall which were fewer each year, and actually saved them for spring planting because they were down to two rounds each...  but I must've put them in too late, even though we had several frosts, they aren't emerging.  :(
The Garlicana people are frank about expecting low germination.  And then the time it takes to grow up to a full sized bulb.  There is usually a fair bit of attrition over the first years with bulbils.  Probably similar from seed.  All the more precious when you actually bring something to maturity...  great project the TGS.

nathanp

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: 15
    • View Profile
    • Kenosha Potato Project - Facebook page
Re: True Garlic Seed (TGS)
« Reply #14 on: 2021-06-09, 05:00:00 PM »
I have a few TGS plants descended from Garlicana's seeds.  Germination varies a lot based on the seed lot and parent, but it does get better with subsequent generations further removed from the original clones.  I think I have 8 plants out of about 50 seeds germinated, for example. 

Avram was featured in one of the Culinary Breeding Network's Youtube videos during 'Garlic Week' in December, 2020.  All five of their videos that week are worth watching/listening to if anyone is interested in breeding garlic.  Some really good information there, some of it was a bit surprising to me.

This is the one Avram was in, but several staff from the USDA genebank are interviewed in several of the other ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f03vEf_neR0
« Last Edit: 2021-06-09, 05:02:13 PM by nathanp »