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#31
Tomatoes / Re: Montana Tomato Project
Last post by William Schlegel - 2026-08-03, 07:31:58 PMQuote from: reed on 2026-08-03, 07:57:51 AMIt really doesn't seem to be getting easier, does it?
Generally it is. Though have a lot of new F1s this year. Though almost regardless of adaptation this is just a challenging tomato year so far.
#32
Tomatoes / Re: Mid-Ohio Valley Tomatoes
Last post by Carol Deppe - 2026-08-03, 05:01:26 PMCommercial F1 hybrids are usually crosses between two inbred very uniform lines. So you don't need many plants to start a dehybridization project or to cross to something else. One plant might do fine for hybrid tomatoes. I usually have at least three plants with bee-pollinated crops because bees can fail to find a single isolated plant.
If you cross two relatively uniform lines one cross involving just one plant of each parent is fine if the cross works. I am more likely to grow at least three plants of each parent and cross them in all possible combinations.
How many F2s you "need" is a matter of what you are trying to do. If the cross involves four genes segregating in a diploid plant like tomatoes, and you want all the recessives in one variety, with each recessive having a 1/4 probability, the probability of getting all four simultaneously, assuming independence, is one in 256. And you would probably want more than just one. So if you had unlimited land and labor, probably more like a thousand.
As far as I am concerned, I don't ever "need" 1000 F2s of anything, because growing and evaluating 1000 F2s of anything is too many to be fun. And I would probably not notice totally unexpected things that might turn up that may be as important or more important than what I thought I wanted. So I might figure out different parents that share one or two of the recessives.
Or I get what I want by selecting in stages. I will grow as many as I can grow and evaluate so it will still be fun. And then, for example, I select for just one of the recessives and ignore the others. Then the next year I can select for another recessive. Doing it that way, if I plant 40-80, the number of most projects that I find manageable and fun, I can fix (make homozygous) one gene per season and have odds of 1/4 each year. That is roughly 10 to 20 plants of the type I want each year.
If you cross two relatively uniform lines one cross involving just one plant of each parent is fine if the cross works. I am more likely to grow at least three plants of each parent and cross them in all possible combinations.
How many F2s you "need" is a matter of what you are trying to do. If the cross involves four genes segregating in a diploid plant like tomatoes, and you want all the recessives in one variety, with each recessive having a 1/4 probability, the probability of getting all four simultaneously, assuming independence, is one in 256. And you would probably want more than just one. So if you had unlimited land and labor, probably more like a thousand.
As far as I am concerned, I don't ever "need" 1000 F2s of anything, because growing and evaluating 1000 F2s of anything is too many to be fun. And I would probably not notice totally unexpected things that might turn up that may be as important or more important than what I thought I wanted. So I might figure out different parents that share one or two of the recessives.
Or I get what I want by selecting in stages. I will grow as many as I can grow and evaluate so it will still be fun. And then, for example, I select for just one of the recessives and ignore the others. Then the next year I can select for another recessive. Doing it that way, if I plant 40-80, the number of most projects that I find manageable and fun, I can fix (make homozygous) one gene per season and have odds of 1/4 each year. That is roughly 10 to 20 plants of the type I want each year.
#33
Tomatoes / Re: Montana Tomato Project
Last post by Carol Deppe - 2026-08-03, 03:30:38 PMWhen you just have one of something distinct, you indeed can't be sure whether it is distinctive because of genes instead of environment when the distinction is earliness or faster or more vigorous growth or bigger or smaller size.
There are some things you can check for, however. Is the plant at the end of a row or next to a space where the an adjacent plant failed so it had more space than most?
What about variable shade?
One thing I like to do is walk the rows the second day after (overhead) irrigation when most of the ground looks dry on top but some areas will appear damp, giving me a graphic indication of what is getting more water. And I compare the plants in the two kinds of soil to determine whether any of the planting is water-limited.
With tomatoes, if you have a distinct plant with a different color or shape, that is very likely to be genetic.
The environment has a huge influence on flavor of tomatoes in maritime Oregon. Professional produce handling says that tomatoes should not be refrigerated or stored at below 50 degrees F because it screws up flavor. Yet most market gardeners here pick their tomatoes early in the morning; our nights go down into the 60s almost every night. My observation is tomatoes here picked full ripe in the morning have less sweetness and an off flavor compared with those picked after they have had some sun. Some varieties even have a bitter flavor. In fact, the best flavor is obtained by picking the tomatoes one to three days or so before full ripe in the afternoon and bringing them indoors to ripen to perfect prime.
There are some things you can check for, however. Is the plant at the end of a row or next to a space where the an adjacent plant failed so it had more space than most?
What about variable shade?
One thing I like to do is walk the rows the second day after (overhead) irrigation when most of the ground looks dry on top but some areas will appear damp, giving me a graphic indication of what is getting more water. And I compare the plants in the two kinds of soil to determine whether any of the planting is water-limited.
With tomatoes, if you have a distinct plant with a different color or shape, that is very likely to be genetic.
The environment has a huge influence on flavor of tomatoes in maritime Oregon. Professional produce handling says that tomatoes should not be refrigerated or stored at below 50 degrees F because it screws up flavor. Yet most market gardeners here pick their tomatoes early in the morning; our nights go down into the 60s almost every night. My observation is tomatoes here picked full ripe in the morning have less sweetness and an off flavor compared with those picked after they have had some sun. Some varieties even have a bitter flavor. In fact, the best flavor is obtained by picking the tomatoes one to three days or so before full ripe in the afternoon and bringing them indoors to ripen to perfect prime.
#34
Tomatoes / Re: F1s for the People! 2026
Last post by Tim DH - 2026-08-03, 01:47:47 PMAs mentioned further up this thread. My main focus this year is recreating Craig's Gift F1.
As a sort of insurance policy, I got both parents from two different sources.
One of the supposed Lillian's Yellows didn't even get to planting out since it wasn't potato leaved.
(The same thing happened with one of the Pruden's Purples.)
Now, as the fruit ripens, one of the Cherokee Purples is also off type. Very irritating, I'd used pollen from that plant in quite a few crosses and they'll all be useless.
Still, all is not lost, I have one fruit on a plant I believe to be Lillian's Yellow, which was pollinated by a plant I believe to be Cherokee Purple. ... Here's hoping it has plenty of seed in!
A (small) Cherokee Purple on the left and an imposter on the right.
As a sort of insurance policy, I got both parents from two different sources.
One of the supposed Lillian's Yellows didn't even get to planting out since it wasn't potato leaved.
(The same thing happened with one of the Pruden's Purples.)
Now, as the fruit ripens, one of the Cherokee Purples is also off type. Very irritating, I'd used pollen from that plant in quite a few crosses and they'll all be useless.
Still, all is not lost, I have one fruit on a plant I believe to be Lillian's Yellow, which was pollinated by a plant I believe to be Cherokee Purple. ... Here's hoping it has plenty of seed in!
A (small) Cherokee Purple on the left and an imposter on the right.
#35
Tomatoes / Re: F1s for the People! 2026
Last post by Tim DH - 2026-08-03, 01:21:46 PMHi Steph,
Thanks for the link. I read the Abstract and Discussion (and some of the bits inbetween), but I think most of it went over my head!
One of the things I liked about Barry's Crazy Cherry was that the first truss was absolutely massive, and it was still flowering/fruiting at the end of the season. (Subsequent trusses were progressively smaller.) This concentration of continuous fruiting lower down appeared to limit the plants upward mobility. And, as you say, its good for short seasons.
The hybrids I've trialled so far, with BCC as a parent, have gone the other way, slowly increasing in truss size up the plant. They have a modest amount of branching, but nothing like BCC.
Thanks for the link. I read the Abstract and Discussion (and some of the bits inbetween), but I think most of it went over my head!
One of the things I liked about Barry's Crazy Cherry was that the first truss was absolutely massive, and it was still flowering/fruiting at the end of the season. (Subsequent trusses were progressively smaller.) This concentration of continuous fruiting lower down appeared to limit the plants upward mobility. And, as you say, its good for short seasons.
The hybrids I've trialled so far, with BCC as a parent, have gone the other way, slowly increasing in truss size up the plant. They have a modest amount of branching, but nothing like BCC.
#36
Tomatoes / Re: Mid-Ohio Valley Tomatoes
Last post by reed - 2026-08-03, 08:07:20 AMI've really been neglecting my tomato thread. They are doing very well this year; in fact, I tore out some still producing sauce / juice types to make room to plant some fall brussels sprouts. Already got plenty of those things in jars. The F2 of Plum Regal is really putting out fruit. Not all that great flavor but much better if dried or roasted. I'm going to try sun drying some. F2 of Super sauce looking good too.
Both the Mr. Stripey and Hoosier Rose crosses William did are doing still yielding and expect they will until frost. A new Hoosier Rose segregation showed up. It is bigger than any last year and has deep lobes. It's a cool looking tomato and tastes fine. Little disappointed in that it's a regular leaf but o'well.
Both the Mr. Stripey and Hoosier Rose crosses William did are doing still yielding and expect they will until frost. A new Hoosier Rose segregation showed up. It is bigger than any last year and has deep lobes. It's a cool looking tomato and tastes fine. Little disappointed in that it's a regular leaf but o'well.
#37
Tomatoes / Re: Montana Tomato Project
Last post by reed - 2026-08-03, 07:57:51 AMIt really doesn't seem to be getting easier, does it?
That is a really important point that I think a lot of people don't take seriously enough. All sorts of little microclimates exist; random chance is pretty common too. I'm often wondering when I see something distinctive is whether its genetic or environmental.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2026-08-02, 10:46:42 PMAll protected from the June 8th frost by heat radiating from a thick sand layer- so not genetics. Interesting but frustrating 2026 results so far.
That is a really important point that I think a lot of people don't take seriously enough. All sorts of little microclimates exist; random chance is pretty common too. I'm often wondering when I see something distinctive is whether its genetic or environmental.
#38
Tomatoes / Re: Montana Tomato Project
Last post by William Schlegel - 2026-08-02, 10:46:42 PMI'm having serious doubts about my 2026 tomato garden. Just had deer hit the garden at the apartment. The garden land gardens seem to be small and far behind due to frost, hail, and perhaps heat and inadequate weeding. Time may not be on my side depending on when first frost chooses to come. Got seed tomatoes back from one additional cross this weekend. All protected from the June 8th frost by heat radiating from a thick sand layer- so not genetics. Interesting but frustrating 2026 results so far.
#39
Cucurbits / Re: Get a Blue c.moschata
Last post by Adrian - 2026-08-01, 02:09:52 PMBlue kury was probably crossed with one of my F3 between (violina x waltham) x (violina x Tetsukabuto) the last year.
Its a great day for started the blue moschata project!
Its a great day for started the blue moschata project!
#40
Legumes / Re: Everyone's Pea Projects?
Last post by Carol Deppe - 2026-07-31, 09:10:26 PMQuote from: gmuller on 2025-07-25, 03:44:06 PMColoured edible-podded peas have drifted from my attention, but a couple of pie in the sky targets would be finding a large podded sugar snap, and rediscovering the stringless pod genetics.There actually is a large-podded and very productive Sugar snap. But it didn't get named or called a sugar snap pea.
gm
The distinctive differences between a snow pea and a snap pea are three. The snap pea has sweet wrinkled seeds so the pods may be harvested and are harvested when the seeds are full size. The pods are round instead of flat in cross section. And the walls of the pods are unusually thick.
Oregon Giant Sugar, bred by the late great Oregon State University plant breeder Jim Baggett, has the wrinkled seeds and edible pods with low fiber. AND THE THICK-WALLED POD WALLS. They taste like sugar snap pods. However the pods are flat instead of round in cross section. And they are huge compared with SugarSnap. Pods are up to about 5" long and nearly an inch widep
, and usually two per node. I'd guess the pods are about twice the weight of Sugar Snap pods. I call this type of pod Flat Snaps. I invite any who want to to use that name with such pods.
Oregon Giant Sugar can be planted here in maritime Oregon from February breaks in weather to early August to produce pods from July till hard freezes in October. This is possible because Jim bred three critical disease resistance genes into OGS that made it possible to expand the pea season to the entire summer in maritime Oregon: pea wilt (fusarium), powdery mildew, and pea enation mosaic virus. PEMV is mostly a problem only in the maritime NW. OGS can also be planted in mid October and overwintered. I presoak seed when planting in feb or oct. I drain seeds and mix them with dry soil to make them easier to handle. I have found that my summer plantings of peas are a lot happier if they have partial shade on their roots. Igrow secession plantings of peas by sowing a wide row in a circle and supporting the row with a large commercial tomato cage.
OGS also has the virtue that after the seeds reach full size so the pods are at maximal sweetness, the pods stop maturing for a day or two before beginning to dry down. So it is easier to pick the pods at absolute prime. Here in Oregon, with our cold nights, its best to pick on days when there has been some direct sun, and after the pods have had some sun on them. Never in the morning. If put in a plastic bag and refrigerated they stay prime about three days. If picked in the morning they are way less sweet.
OGS has one string substantial enough to warrant removing. I usually pick by snapping pods off leaving the stem end of the pod and the string on the vine. OGS is about 4 to 5 feet tall. Leaves are huge.
The photo shows a summer planting of Oregon Giant Sugar in accessible edges of a squash kale jungle. The squash was planted by weeding spots for hills in a field that had grown a kale seed crop the year before. Nearly 100% of my weeds the following spring were kale from the dropped seed.. I left most of the kale and let the kale and squash fight it out. Every week or so I added another ring of peas. By fall the squash had mostly overgrown the kale. After the squash was harvested and died back I had a nice overwintering kale patch. And no need to do a fall tilling.
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