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Messages - Garrett Schantz

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1
Plant Breeding / Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« on: Today at 12:36:23 AM »
The orange types are becoming a sort of purpleish color. Slightly different from the normal types, haven't tasted them yet though.

Ordered some Rubus seed packets from Sheffields.

Rubus probus - Queensland Raspberry - 193 seeds per packet

Doesn't require cold stratification, in the Idaeobatus clade - not frost hardy. I want to hybridize this with other Idaeobatus species, I will most likely grow these indoors until they flower / fruit.
I want species in this clade from all different countries, continents. There are local types of diseases found in these different countries / regions. And these diverse species could have resistances that the others don't have. Hoping to solve issues before they arise. Growing from seed helps prevent disease as well.

Rubus odoratus - Purple-flowering Raspberry - 177 seeds per packet (Collected in New York, state right next to mine - should perform well enough)

Probably needs some form of stratification. In the Anoplobatus clade. Reportedly a diploid, meaning it couldwork out well enough with the Idaeobatus clade diploids. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287889627_Determining_Ploidy_Level_and_Nuclear_DNA_Content_in_Rubus_by_Flow_Cytometry).

Rubus spectabilis - Salmon Berry - 46 seeds per packet

Also in the Idaeobatus clade, seems to have different flowers than the norm for this clade - unsure of how closely related it is to the others as well. Probably requires stratification. Unsure of how well this species will perform here, the collection locale was Idaho - shouldn't mind being dry for certain periods of time.


I might try to start some of these this year, warm stratify a few, try a few different things with them. I am probably getting some Idaeobatus hybrids next year from my current plants in that clade. Would rather not have these fellows drag behind too much. I would try to plant these "naturally" but Rubus species can sometimes take 2 years to germinate, depending on how mild a winter is. I would also need to keep the areas free of woodland weeds without accidentally pulling seeds out of the soil with them.

Rubus probus should be easy to work with in terms of germination, also with the fact that I can't grow many plants to begin with them being frost intolerant - I can have a bunch of failures without an issue. The fruit shape / size also seems fun. I hope that it is able to hybridize with at least one of the Idaeobatus species. I can't find any mentions of hybrids with this species.

Most of the species that I have bloom in the spring, some plants can continue flowering a bit into the summer.

Some links that were posted on another forum.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00221589.1991.11516186
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bqCLLKUl3E

2
Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« on: 2021-06-21, 05:59:35 PM »
The Azygote Chilense type seems to have died. The others are fine.

Adding an image of an outside look of the pot with probable Chilense seedlings in it. Quite cramped, there are probably pimpinellifolium types in there, could have penneli or other things mixed in too. I sort of gave up on them germinating after a few months, repurposed - forgot about it after awhile... The large plant with flowers on it is a peruvianum plant from J&L Gardens that I stuck in there months because I had too many plants in a single cell.

I should probably thin out the pot...

Second image is the "fuzzy habrochaites". Hopefully it has nice flowers, it has been under a Neandermato plant for a few weeks now, seems happy there. There are two seedlings, so if the Neandermato can't donate pollen - hopefully the two plants can pollinate each other.

Last image is the fast peruvianum again. Lot of growth on the base, might cut off the top which was sort of "leggy".


Once the hairy habrochaites flowers, I will attempt to cross it with a few things. Others on here have a different hairy habrochaites accession, hopefully at least one of these types are compatible with Neandermato.

3
Plant Breeding / Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« on: 2021-06-21, 05:45:23 PM »
I went out and picked a few R. occidentalis berries today (Like 3 berries).

I picked the ones that were soft, even if they weren't a fully developed color. Birds swarm the fruits the moment they are fully ripened.

Going to include an image of some unripe types, they are quite ornamental at this stage, red berries much like red raspberries - except they are still hard at this stage.

The large stemmed R. occidentalis that I moved into the experimental spot has orange colored fruit so far, usually these go from green to red within a day - no orange involved. I'm unsure if these types will ultimately be a different color, which would confirm these as a hybrid. Or as an even more unusual variant.

If I do have an orange / different colored variant, I will probably attempt to hybridize it with the Yellow occidentalis, focusing on keeping the red / white canes along with the large upright growth. R. occidentalis is a sexual plant, attempting to isolate / clone the plant would be against my general goals of these projects, I want these to mostly propagate sexually.

4
Plant Breeding / Re: Mild purple radishes
« on: 2021-06-21, 05:34:47 PM »
Rattails are plump-ish. They seem to bolt faster than regular radishes - normally would be an advantage since they are grown for pods. Would be an issue if you want a root crop out of it.

I bought some Singara Rat's tail - along with Experimental Farm Network's Purple Podded Rattail. EFN's had a lower germination, but the pods are much longer and purple colored.

The flowers appeared to be larger than normal types.

5
Plant Breeding / Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« on: 2021-06-19, 02:03:10 AM »
I'm probably not buying certain crops next year due to all of the things that I am ordering...

Anyways, I bought:

R. cockburnianus 'Aureus'
R. setchuenensis
R. lineatus

R. setchuenensis and  R. lineatus are both in the poorly studied Malachobatus clade. I would have ordered these sooner if I had realized they were in the same clade. Both plants are shrub-like, R. lineatus is drought tolerant - fairly cold tolerant, zone 7 by most sources(I will heavily mulch the plant, or keep it in a pot). R. setchuenensis is probably more cold hardy.

Now a tricky part: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13039-015-0114-y

Subgenus Idaeobatus species are predominantly diploid, whereas subg. Malachobatus represents a polyploid complex, with tetraploidy, hexaploidy, octoploidy or tetradecaploidy level [6,11,12]. Interestingly, R. parvifolius in subg. Idaeobatus had various ploidy levels, with di-, tri-, tetraploid, and mixed diploid-tetraploid [13]. Not only are the phylogenetic relationships between these species unknown, we also donít even know to what extent ploidy level varies among them.

I have found a few sources claiming R. setchuenensis to be a triploid(https://www.isgpb.org/documents/archive/13-242-249-qing-chen.pdf) - but it could have a different ploidy. Not too sure about R. lineatus.

R. parvifolius(Different from R. parviflorus, spelt in a similar way) would be nice to have - in terms of hybridizing the Malachobatus clade with Idaeobatus species. If the R. setchuenensis is a tetraploid, I would have to cross it with a diploid. There would be a lot of sterility in such a cross - that is without the issues of them being in different clades.

Either way, I may try hybridizing R. setchuenensis and R. lineatus. Selecting for cold hardiness and drought tolerance seems like a nice start. R. lineatus can apparently cross easily with "native blackberries". Might try out some controlled crosses.


If I can only manage blackberry crosses, I may try out thornless bush blackberries as a project. Would be similar to Andrew's Anoplobatus project, mine would be in the Rubus clade (Yeah, great name for a subgenus - same name as the actual genus) I will probably stick with calling it by the old name - Eubatus. This would also be in the Malachobatus clade towards the beginning, I want to branch it towards the blackberry clade, just as a base for anyone else who would want to try making some further improved hybrids.



Something else to note - R. allegheniensis is apparently a diploid. So I could have hybrids lingering around somewhere. Should be fun with all of the other Idaeobatus diploids mixed in next year. No idea what will happen with the R. parviflorus plants - also most likely a diploid. R. cockburnianus is most likely a diploid as well.


So, the current Idaeobatus species(or cultivars) that I have:
R. phoenicolasius
R. occidentalis
R. occidentalis Flava - Yellow Black Raspberry
R. leucodermis
R. cockburnianus - Aureus
R. neglectus - Royalty Purple Raspberry
R. idaeus - Encore Red Raspberry

Basically 5 species, not counting R. neglectus which is a hybrid of two of the species listed. All of these can probably cross freely, or some of the offspring will be able to do so.

The R. phoenicolasius is from South Korea.
R. occidentalis and R. leucodermis are both from North America - my types are basically from different sides of it.
R. cockburnianus is endemic to China.
R. idaeus could have types from Asia, Europe and North America mixed in. Same story with R. neglectus.

This gives me a high possibility for disease / fungi immunities. I don't care too much for the flowers in this clade. Maybe I can obtain, or find some diploid blackberry x black raspberry crosses or something. Maybe improve the flower looks...

6
Plant Breeding / Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« on: 2021-06-17, 05:18:11 AM »
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00035410

Should be interesting to try and recreate this hybrid.

Potentilla fruticosa is now being referred to as Dasiphora fruticosa due to genetic tests showing a few plants to be distinct.

Should be easy to get seeds, it's grown as an ornamental.

7
Tomatoes / Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« on: 2021-06-16, 07:20:07 PM »
I seeded solanum pimpinellifolium along a large area where I have been putting strawberries, other perennial vegetables. They are growing pretty well now, I don't water them. The only amount of rain that we have been getting here has just been showers all in a single day, usually nothing else for a few weeks.

Suppose that counts as direct seeded / dry farmed... I will post images of the seedlings at some point this week.

8
Plant Breeding / Re: Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« on: 2021-06-16, 07:17:06 PM »
Some unripe berries from the low growing plant which is probably R. ursinus. Some berries are still closed up, could be a defense against insects?

I am going to try saving seeds from different species separately. Any notable plants get their seeds saved in a special container - these types will be given a special area, probably in full sun to grow.

I'm probably going to end up removing a bunch of the brambles in the woods, the blackberries are growing on a trail. They are also suffering from the shaded conditions. R. allegheniensis is supposed to be a full sun plant, which can't tolerate shade. Rather not have it getting sick and spreading any disease.

Some black raspberries are turning red. They go from red to black rather quickly. I need to beat the birds to the berries. So I will be checking the plants daily for awhile. The blackberries are starting to become large as well.

9
Plant Breeding / Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« on: 2021-06-16, 06:54:14 PM »
Took a stroll through the woods today, checking on ripeness of Rubus berries, harvested some red elderberries - etc.

Found a small plant with a Rosaceae type of flower. No thorns, not a small Rubus. Leaves didn't fit a strawberry, long flowering stalk. Figured either a Geum or a Potentilla. So, I got my phone out and used the nice PlanetNet app. The app says that the plant is a Geum species. Geum laciniatum and Geum canadense. I'm going with Geum canadense, I have found plants before in the spring with the green leaves that have white markings.

I also tried out the "Geum species" on the app, still no flowers - so going off the leaves. The app said Geum coccineum - the dried flowers on the plant have a darkish red tinge. So, Geum coccineum would make sense.

Geum canadense is from North America. Wikipedia says that Geum coccineum is from: Western Asia (Turkey) and in Southeastern Europe (Albania; Bosnia and Herzegovina; Bulgaria; Greece; Macedonia; Montenegro; Serbia). (Their source is ARS / GRIN / USDA).

So, being from different continents, I have no idea how well they would hybridize, some Geum species can cross freely. Ploidy count could differ / be an issue as well.

Either way I have Potentilla canadensis and Geum canadense available to experiment with, both are native to my area. I can't find any native strawberry species nearby, that would be even better.

Geum canadense looks quite different from young plant, to the flowering stage. I prefer the non-flowering stage leaves. Quite ornamental in the woods. I tried looking for more plants, found a single large clump with the top portions gone. I'm assuming that deer demolish most of the plants.

A fun thing about Geum canadense is listed on this website: http://www.illinoiswildflowers.info/savanna/plants/white_avens.htm

Cultivation: The preference is light shade or partial sun, moist to slightly dry conditions, and a loam or clay-loam soil. At favorable sites, this plant can spread aggressively and is somewhat weedy. White Avens is able to grow underneath Black Walnut trees (Juglans nigra) because of its tolerance to the phytotoxic chemicals that are released by the fallen leaves and roots of this tree.

Black Walnuts have a pretty high juglone content in comparison to other Juglans species. Strawberries can't really handle any amount of juglone found in the soil, or from leaves.

Strawberries make a nice groundcover, having a strawberry groundcover that can grow underneath Black Walnut trees would be quite nice. Would probably work in a "food forest" that has Walnut trees as well.

Some maple trees make a similar chemical as well.

Geum canadense can hybridize readily with Geum urbanum from Europe / The Middle East. Geum urbanum is also reported to hybridize frequently with Geum rivale - which looks quite ornamental.

I haven't noticed any Geum x Rubus plants. Though these plants are red at the base of the stems, same as the low growing Rubus species that I found before.

I moved a Geum canadense plant next to the Geum coccineum plant. If coccineum flowers again, bees should go back and forth between the flowers.


I might try getting Geum triflorum seeds as well. Again, another ornamental looking plant. Bumblebees apparently rip open the flowers to get to the nectar and pollen. Bumblebees usually don't bother with strawberry flowers. Would be nice to make strawberries that are highly attractive to bees. Though other insects might become pests due to that.


If anyone wants seeds of these, I can try collecting some. Potentilla canadensis might be a bit tricky due to how small the flowers are, but they ultimately grow in small spike balls, should be easy to collect seed. Seeds from wild plants seem to be hard to find.

10
Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« on: 2021-06-15, 08:55:04 PM »
The Peruvianum.

Grew too fast compared to the others and couldn't get it under good lighting.

11
Tomatoes / Re: Tomato Journal
« on: 2021-06-15, 07:44:02 PM »
I am getting a space heater next year for the basement. In previous years it hasn't been very cold in the early spring / late winter, nor did it snow much.

This time it actually got cold enough to stunt everything.

Some tomatoes are thankfully recovering.

12
Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« on: 2021-06-15, 07:41:51 PM »
I put my habrochaites pot into the ground, some more are germinating after I did this - other than the types in the pot, I only have two neadermatos, two small habrochaites v. typicum seedlings. Hopefully they will all be able to pollinate / cross with each other.


Now the main purpose of this post: I had a pot with Chilense seeds in it - started in September if I remember correctly. By January, nothing had come up and I decided to try the whole pimpinellifolium thing in a pot, which is working well enough I suppose.

Upon closer inspection I found some odd looking seedlings - possible Chilense seedlings! Could be some other species, but I only remember planting pimpinellifolium and chilense in the pots - I also still have the tags in the pots where I put different Chilense types. One tag has two strange seedlings next to it, another has a single newly germinated seedling.

The first image has two seedlings, I can't remember the exact accession - but there should be some purple markings on this type. Should also be SI... Hopefully at least two plants survive. If a single plant survives, maybe it will be pollinated by a Peruvianum or a Wildling (Or pollinate a Wildling).

The second type is from a site called "Azygote" - the site is now closed it seems like? The owner of the site was Gary Cass and someone else if I remember correctly. I can't quite remember if this one was SI or not. I lost my other wild relative species in a heat wave last year. They were all growing well prior to that as well...


Also going to add an image of my --still-- most vigorous Peruvianum. It previously had flowers, they died off from the heat though.

13
Plant Breeding / Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« on: 2021-06-15, 07:26:47 PM »
I bought a "Geum species" from Walmart today.

No variety name was listed, nor species.

Geum is closely related to Potentilla and Fragaria. There are also already double flowered types, orange flowered species, all sorts of nice stuff. Might be fun to attempt some crosses with.

The type that I bought seems to have red looking flowers, they are dried out - hard to tell the exact color.


My largest end goal here, is to encorporate unique / helpful genes from: Geum, Potentilla, few other genuses if possible - and eventually into a strawberry that will be used in a Rubus x Fragaria cross (if it works).

All of these different genuses have some nice looking flowers and other features.


14
Plant Breeding / Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« on: 2021-06-13, 09:43:11 PM »
Yeah, I didn't word that in the best way.

Once the fertility issues are solved, this could become a really big thing. Could select for something that tastes better than strawberries or raspberries, and is also more nutritious.

Once botanists and breeders figure out that this cross is successful, other Rubus / Fragaria could be experimented with by large labs.

Imagine if labs managed a loganberry - garden strawberry cross...

Mass spectrometry is nice, it would be nice to see genetic results of the F1 seeds / plants. Could reveal what genes / chromosomes paired up, which ones didn't. Could help further experiments.

15
Plant Breeding / Re: Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« on: 2021-06-13, 08:31:07 PM »
I have also found mention of Fragaria x Rubus (Raspberry) actual working out online.

https://the-biologist-is-in.blogspot.com/2015/01/hybrid-sterility-and-speciation.html

http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2018/04/strawberry-raspberry-hybrids.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2018/07/strawberry-x-raspberry-hybrid-plant.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2019/02/strawberry-x-raspberry-experiment-update.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2019/02/strawberry-x-raspberry-intergeneric.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2020/07/strawberry-raspberry-hybrid-plants.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2020/09/raspberry-x-strawberry-hybrid-f2-seed.html
http://living-mudflower.blogspot.com/2021/05/strawberry-raspberry-hybrids-test.html

This is quite interesting to me. The fact that they got the plants tested is even better. Unfortunately I don't have Fragaria vesca plants at the moment.

It should work with F. vesca and R. occidentalis as well. So I might not need a red raspberry.

The R. occidentalis in my area has the white / reddish stems. Even other types usually have blueish stems. R. idaeus has green stems. Not to mention the whole black - blue colored fruit. Even the Yellow Black Raspberry could prove interesting in a cross.

R. occidentalis would be of more interest in breeding to a F. vesca than just purely to R. idaeus. A strawberry with anthocyanin would be interesting.

Making crosses with R. idaeus types from North America and Europe - along with others that have the same ploidy would probably be very nice. Same thing with F. vesca.

This would allow for the best flavors / disease resistances of both parents.

From what the Living-mudflower blog has said, the hybrid appears to somewhat perennial based, same with the Fragaria parent. Runners probably produce even more F1 clones. Quite a nice thing for breeding purposes. The plants don't fruit untill around the second year - same as raspberries.

The hybrid should have sugars from both parents according to the Living-mudflower test results. Also seems to be very "tasty". Selecting the tastiest varieties from both species should give excellent offspring.



Now to mention possible issues:

The first one would be that in this cross, the plants all seem to have mostly Fragaria characteristics. This could be due to a number of reasons - one of them could be that most of the Rubus genes get skipped over and reverted to the Fragaria type. Something similar happens with Female Mule x Male Donkey hybrids - most of the Horse genes are replaced with Donkeys.

Could of course be that the Fragaria genes are carried over mostly by the mother, most of the Rubus genes are skipped over right away. Living-mudflower mentions this as well, along with a related source: www.fao.org/3/a-y5553e.pdf

This may feel familiar to others on here - Solanum chilense's root system is maternal based. Some other wild tomato species behave this way as well.

This could mean that certain disease resistances may not transfer over - or things may end up sterile at higher rates in certain generations. Most diseases/pathogens attack certain genes, having a target gene cross over to Fragaria species without the resistance / immunity could cause the pathogen to adapt and start attacking other Fragaria species(Or Rubus species). Of course the last part could happen even if the resistant gene is present.

R. occidentalis plants usually need pollination from other plants, there are Fragaria species like this as well - might help to maintain diversity / traits from both parents. Unsure if the female / male mechanisms are the same/compatible though. If important genes are being skipped over due to maternal related genes, backcrossing may work - hopefully in either direction.

Mixing in different species that have different ploidy counts would be nice as well. But then the cross may not work very well - would probably need to have the plants tested to try and restore the ploidy along the way.

Figured I would quote this from the Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids thread.

A few things to add from the top of my head - the strawberry that Burbank used was a Garden Strawberry (Fragaria x anassa), which is an octoploid. The Raspberry that he used was probably a diploid.

From what the Potentilla x Fragaria or Octoploid strawberry x Diploid strawberry articles / studies have shown, there is a lot of infertility and other issues with crosses of different ploidys.

Living Mudflower reported sterility issues in the F1, as you mentioned. This was with a diploid Strawberry / Raspberry.

This means that Burbank probably got hit with the sterility issues caused from the differing ploidy count, along with mismatched genes.

Raspberries grow on canes, strawberries sort of creep or grow upright as a small plant. Strawberries fruit is also different, the seeds are on the outside, a few other differences. Raspberries don't even really have the same type of "runners" as strawberries, they just root at the tips.

This also further fuels my thought that a bunch of raspberry genes were cut out / skipped over. They couldn't pair up with the strawberry genes in the same location. This might also explain sterility issues, as the generations go on the issues should resolve themselves by natural selection.

I mentioned this somewhere else on here, genes within the different sets of chromosomes need to be similar enough to add on, merge with a different parent's chromosome.

The test wasn't a full on genetic test - it mostly tested sugars from both parents - among other things, people in other forums have declared this as a reasoning that it isn't a definite hybrid. They have also argued that there aren't any "intermediate looking plants". But as I mentioned before - the raspberries canes, among other traits may have been cut out immediately. Things like different sugars may have lined up just enough.

Quite an interesting matter. I'm planning on making a tasty rubus intergenus hybrid, attempting to keep it as an octoploid or diploid. Either one works, I want to do this with strawberry species as well, the different species are hard to find.


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