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Topics - Garrett Schantz

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Plant Breeding / Strawberry Species / Hybrids
« on: 2021-06-09, 02:21:20 AM »
Figured I would make a thread here about strawberries, not seeing anything about them on the forum - hoping to change that.

Right now I have:

F. virginiana ?: Type grown from seed, spread around in woods from runners. Could be something else, the original plants "died", Musk strawberries and vesca types were in that group. Flowers are quite small, leaves resemble F. virginiana more than modern strawberries.

F. virginiana Port Huron: Type from Oikos, supposedly resistant to foliar diseases. Forms runners.

F. chiloensis Coastal Strawberry: Type from Native Foods Nursery. Red fruit, forms some runners, glossy leaves, compact.

I have some newer Pink / Red flowered types, will probably replace them with Lipstick and Pink Panda to avoid any potential Plant Patent issues.

I have seeds of Wild Form F. vesca and F. moschata in the fridge right now. Bought them from Edenwilds. My old plants died from shock when I tried digging them up and moving them.

Ordered three white strawberry "plants/crown" - probably plants at this point. The seller on Etsy is frugalfranks. The seller is pretty close to my area - which is nice on shipping and general acclimation. The variety is listed as "Alpine White Strawberry". Fruits appear to be sort of round, "normal" looking seeds - not red like pineberries which are Fragaria × ananassa. There are also white F. chiloensis types. These appear to be F. vesca - hard to find actual white vesca varieties.

Also ordered Potentilla indica / Duchesnea indica plants from Fires Creek Farm. I will be using these for pollen, keeping them in a controlled area.

I also have some other sort of Potentilla growing in the yard, moved a plant into a controlled area. Unsure if I even want to attempt crosses with it.

Prairiemoon sells a few Fragaria relatives as well.

Some fun colors in strawberry species:

Some mention of cold resistance in strawberries, along with breeding with different ploidy counts.

Ploidy count of some different species - mention of SC / SI types as well.

And of course some Fragaria x Potentilla interspecific breeding. Potentilla indica and F. vesca apparently had sub-lethal traits in their offspring. This could be due to differing ploidy counts along with being in a seperate genus. Vesca is 2x while Indica is 8x. Fragaria × ananassa(8x) x F. vesca(2x) are often sterile or have a low fertility, not surprised that it didn't work too well.

More mention of interspecific breeding. Bit of success with P. indica and F.×ananassa when indica is used as the female. Good bit of barriers are present.

Interesting that Potentilla species don't seem to be good as female donors in 2x crosses - better used for male pollen. 8x crosses seem to be reversed.

I mentioned Fragaria x Rubus possibilities in my Rubus thread - wondering if ploidy would influence male / female usage in this case as well. If I ever attempt that cross with success, it will be in its own thread.


Plant Breeding / Viola Breeding
« on: 2021-05-14, 11:11:22 AM »
I am planning on doing some Viola breeding pretty soon. Unsure if anyone here would be interested. Mostly just selecting for slightly larger flowers (Nothing that is too large, won't seed itself well or get damaged easily). Natural variations would be fun to work with as well.

First image is the normal variation found in my area. Deeper purple color than what you usually find when searching for Viola sororia online.

Second image has some paler types that I found in a clump outside - different than the usual coloration here. There were other purple types in the same spot, so not a soil issue. Just mutants I am assuming.
They are no longer blooming, should flower better next year once they get established - I also put a single "normal variant" flower in the image for comparison. 

Third image, found this plant today. Very large white / yellow area in the center compared to other types. The only two flowers on this plant share the trait.

This is mostly just for North American Violets - I am unsure if types from other places hybridize at all with other types.

There are already improved Violas, more petals - all sorts of things. Just thought it would be a fun side project.

If anyone does want to try this out - just get some "dirt" from the areas where Violas normally grow in your area. They aren't too picky with what they grow in.

Prairiemoon sells a bunch of Viola species. Picking types suited to your area might work best. Afterwards, traits from other species could be gradually mixed in.

If nobody is interested I will probably just post about this on Twitter or something. This would be more of an ornamental breeding project.

Plant Breeding / Bramble(Rubus) Species / Hybrids
« on: 2021-04-01, 11:04:00 AM »
Figured I would make a general Rubus thread. The other Rubus thread is mainly about breeding Anaplobatus species together / Rocky Mountain breeding.

Basically just go out and find areas where any Rubus species overlap, look for things that seem off-type. Take berries - stratify seeds - attempt cuttings etc. I would probably send seeds out if you can't test cuttings for diseases.

This is more of a discussion - reports rather than straight out breeding.

Hybrids between different Rubus groups are common. Sometimes the offspring is sterile, sometimes it isn't.

The main purpose of this thread is to have people find odd variations in certain species - or hybrids. Afterwards they can post the images here - even if the growth types aren't of interest to you they may be of interest to others.

Whatever breeding projects come out of these findings can then become a new thread.

Hoping to spur some interest in Rubus species / breeding.

Newer cultivars for mass cultivation / improved hybrid types can have patents. So I would double check on some of those before attempting to use them for breeding purposes.

Joseph's wide variation of wild tomato crosses has given me an idea of hybridizing Brassicaceae species, which could lead to new crops, flavors, disease resistances and the like.

 Also nicely colored flowers - larger flowers, interesting seed pods. Anything goes here, and anyone who want to do this as well can select out for whatever they want.

 This isn't a large scale project for me, I select out the most vigorous, nice flowered / leaved varieties and add them into a flowering group intermixed with each other.
 From there I select out the nicest looking flowers / leaved specimens. I use the seeds from those, again saving seed from them. I allow at least a few plants from each Brassicaceae species in the group to stay there, regardless if it looks as nice as the others.
Any noticeable hybrids will get a few selections out of the group for stabilization into a new green/root vegetable etc.

 I posted about the species I am using in this project on Permies. Other Brassicaceae are welcome here as well.

 Here are some flowers from last year which were favorable.

Community & Forum Building / Species Concept
« on: 2021-02-15, 05:28:51 PM »
Suppose I will mention the species concept just in case anyone wants to discuss it here - fits in with some landraces-grexes. A few definitions here: or "Species, in biology, classification comprising related organisms that share common characteristics and are capable of interbreeding. This biological species concept is widely used in biology and related fields of study."

 What happens if you find a few groups of Solanum chilense that can freely interbreed with Solanum peruvianum. But other groups of Solanum chilense can't cross with Solanum peruvianum, but they can cross with the interfertile groups of Solanum chilense.

 Some people use the "Reproductive isolation" classification as well, which doesn't work very well for the diverging "tomato clade" due to a large number of exceptions.

 A good bit of Agastache species overlap and occasionally interbreed. The same goes for some Physalis, Sanguisorba, Rudbeckia, Echinacea and Asclepias species. Occasionally citruses can cross in nature as well. Escaped crabapples or other Malus species can also cross freely. White oak species can overlap and cross pretty easily as well - happens frequently.

 Also factoring in escaped related species such as Oriental bittersweet(Celastrus orbiculatus) which can then cross with things like American bittersweet(Celastrus scandens) - the offspring between these are considered hybrids. But left to their own devices, they would technically meet the criteria for a new species after stabilizing out, being isolated from regular orbiculatus/scandens species, filling in different areas than either parent, and both parent species still existing in different isolated areas.

 I'm assuming Agastache rugosa from Asia has intermixed with certain groups of Agastache in North America as well.

 Also assuming that Vitis(Grape) species probably cross with American / Japanese / European species every so often, offspring probably dominates because of introduced diseases, pests that certain species are resistant to. Which could lead to separation of the parent species and the hybrid offspring after a period of time.

 Physalis longifolia x Physalis virginiana hybrids have been noted to be more vigorous than either parent, quickly replacing both parent species in an area. Which means that the hybrids should become a new species eventually, rather than having the hybrid designation. 

 A good bit of Fragaria chiloensis x Fragaria virginiana should have probably had some offspring split into a separate species by now - especially ones that escaped. Certain Fragaria species do overlap as well.

 Columbine species can cross / overlap frequently as well, but we still designate them as separate species.

 Not really going to touch on mammals due to this being a plant breeding forum, but Bison and Bos(Cow) species can breed fairly easily, same goes for Sus(Pig/Boar/Hog) species.

 In my opinion, most (not all) species are just "variable populations" from other members in a genus. I believe there should be a different terminology or classification for species that can cross but are noticeably different. The definition of "species" doesn't work in many cases - or it only half-works. Sub-species aren't accepted in many cases either for whatever reason.

A lot of older Latin species classifications are becoming incorrect as well, now that we can compare genetics between different species.

 I could try making a list of genus's with species that freely cross, could help with people wanting to make landraces/grexes of things that they didn't know could be done with little effort.

 Hoping that this starts some new thoughts / ideas / projects, some people seem to only focus on one species in a genus, without realizing that it can interbreed easily. Would be nice if certain species mentioned here attract more people to the forum as well. Would also be helpful if people here listed things such species here as well, maybe we could start breeding projects that we wouldn't have thought of on our own. I have saw others here mention that "species are a human concept" which is correct.

Cucurbits / Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« on: 2020-12-28, 12:14:16 AM »
So I was looking at the Experimental Farm Network's Facebook page the other day, saw something interesting. A butternut type of squash with a sort of dark green flesh. Here is the Facebook link:
 Quote from the post: "The flavor is surprisingly delicious, with all the sweet richness of a great butternut, but some additional flavors that are hard to put a finger on (spinach? candied papaya?). The scent of the raw squash is different too, with something distinctly tropical to it." Wondering if the color also has something to due with the flavor? I normally only see squash with orange flesh, sometimes yellowish-white etc.

 Has anyone tried this squash - anything similar to it? Wondering if it would have a unique taste from whatever chemical is making it green, or if its more of an exaggeration. If there is a unique flavor, it could be added to a Tetsukabuto descended hybrid being a moschata. Suppose the coloring could deter thieves, if anyone has issues with that.

Plant Breeding / Hexastylis/Asarum hybrids and breeding
« on: 2020-11-12, 06:36:32 PM »
I hadn't really looked into "Wild Ginger" that much until a few days ago. Seems to have a useable medicinal root - apparently somewhat toxic in large doses. Asarum canadense is pollinated by beetles, flies, and ants. Seems to self pollinate as well - the flower isn't really of much appeal though considering its towards the base. Also a perennial down to zone 4, which is nice.

 So yeah a pretty much a small green hosta without the flowers. Which is what I thought at first - then I started looking for related species in the genus. Seems like they can form fertile hybrids together. And the "related species" themselves have some nice qualities. Mainly natural variegations, and apparently similar cold hardiness.
Google images shows Asarum virginicum having a dark green - almost black leaf with some white variegation. Hexastylis arifolia seems similar as well. "Hexastylis or heartleaf is a segregate of the genus Asarum"
 Older canadense stands appear to grow a bit taller so it could be more comparable to a hosta later in life. Hybrids might lead to roots with less toxicity if bred correctly as well. Which could result in a viable ginger substitute.

 Normally I wouldn't mention or bring up something with almost no practical uses, but the way the flower is pollinated was of interest to me. I don't hear too much about beetle, flies or ants as pollinators for really anything for the most part. Some of these insects may be predators - or pests in gardens depending on the species. Being a genus native to North America, it would probably be beneficial to have around just for the native insects. It would be rather interesting to see if any insects that are attracted would attempt pollinating some of the more "odd" tomato flowers as well.

 Anyone have experience with this genus?

Legumes / Phaselous Species / Crosses
« on: 2020-10-27, 11:10:18 PM »
Saw a few posts about Runner Beans, Domestic x Runners, Lima etc. Figured I would make a general thread, which would include any other phaseolus species as well. Uncommon types like Phaseolus maculatus and such could be mentioned here - "Attractive perennial trailing vines found in southwest NM, AZ and northern Mexico above 5000'. Peas-sized beans are brown and black variegated. The Tarahumara make a glue from plant parts to mend gourd containers.   The beans have also bean used as medicine, in fermentation, and as forage.  Seeds are traditionally toasted before eating."
 Phaseolus dumosus is cultivated in Guatemala, Wikipedia (Not the best site for info but it has sources on the page) mentions it is actually a Phaseolus coccineus x P. vulgaris hybrid - it is also described as "perennial to annual". A lot of these are probably day length sensitive. Quite a few Phaseolus species used by natives - foraged / cultivated. But I can't find any due to most of them only being grown by tribes, foraged etc. GRIN probably has some of them, but I don't know if they would send seed out without actual straightforward breeding purposes.
 Phaseolus angustissimus is a close relative of tepary beans. Interesting leaves on Phaseolus filiformis and Phaseolus grayanus. Phaseolus polystachios var. sinuatus looks odd as well. 
 Most of my beans rotted due to excess rain in the spring. I had some that I planted for ornamental reasons that did grow and produce seed. Believe I posted about them on Permies.
 Posting an image of some bought seeds / saved seed.
Bottom Row Starting from left: Santa Catalina - Sycamore Canyon - Blue speckled tepary - Phaseolus Polystachios(PMN) - Succotash bean - Scarlet Runner Bean
Top Left: Strophostyles helvula  Middle: Tepary Beans, unsure found jumbled on table Top Right: Unripe Runners

 Posted smallest and largest types, along with off types. The two runner beans towards the right have a darker purple tint, the striping is somewhat blue compared to the others. Smallest of each variety are in the bottom row. The Santa Catalina are listed as one of Nativeseeds's smallest wild tepary beans - the leaves are quite different from cultivated types from what the images show on the site - very slender. Sycamore Canyon wild tepary is listed as one of the largest wild accessions they have. Both seem to vine more than cultivated types, also seem to require more scarification. Blue speckled tepary can't stand heat / humidity / drought. Phaseolus Polystachios from Prairiemoon is a perennial, haven't grown this one yet either.
 Most of these will be planted next year, possibly in pots due to day length sensitivity - allow for pods to mature, protect from excess rain etc. Vining tepary beans seem interesting, although they will have small beans/pods. I will probably buy some Lofthouse Tepary beans as well. Also some Limas from Southernexposure. Probably going to take a look at EFN's Polystachios if it comes back in stock - from my state so possibly decently adapted. Possibly Phaseolus maculatus from Nativeseeds if it returns - Covid panic buyers really hit their limited seed stocks hard from what I can tell.
 Will post images of the plants outdoors when I grow them next season. Any discussion about uses of unexplored Phaseolus species are welcome. Particular disease resistances or traits that these species have could be mentioned as well.

Tomatoes / Wild Tomato Sources
« on: 2020-08-19, 07:45:09 PM »
Figured I would make a post for any of us to list sources in case anyone new joins the forum and doesn't have any wild types of tomatoes for breeding into domestics - hopefully expands group of people growing out these sorts of things - might also expand diversity since they are different sources and selecting for different areas/traits. Pretty sure some of you on here trade or sell seed to people as well. Any admin or whoever can feel free to edit this as well - make better format, add more sources etc. Anyway I will list a few:

U.S: - Solanum cheesmaniae, Solanum habrochaites v glabratum, Solanum peruvianum, Solanum pimpinellifolium, Wild x Domestics - Solanum Glandalosum(peruvianum-corneliomulleri ?), Solanum habrochaites, A species of Galapagos island tomato, Wild x Domestics - Solanum peruvianum(Joseph's strain) - Solanum peruvianum - Solanum pimpinellifolium, Solanum galapagense(Hairy fruit version and regular), Solanum peruvianum, Solanum habrochaites, Solanum cheesmaniae - Solanum pimpinellifolium, Solanum habrochaites, Solanum peruvianum - Solaum chilense - Solanum pimpinellifolium, Solanum chilense (UC Davis mostly only gives to researchers, resident addresses are usually auto denied - but if you are interested in breeding go ahead and try. If you do receive seed be sure to send updates of disease resistance, traits etc, images, update them on things that used it in a breeding line / population - its free and maybe they will open back up more if people actually do this)

Europe: - Solanum pimpinellifolium, Solanum peruvianum, Solanum habrochaites - Solanum pimpinellifolium, Solanum chilense (Ships/Sells to U.S. and other countries as well but order could be taken by customs, purchase at your own risk) - Solanum peruvianum, Solanum cheesmaniae, Solanum pimpinellifolium, Solanum chilense, Solanum galapagense(Listed as a subspecies of cheesmaniae), Solanum hirsutum/habrochaites(Typicum and Glabratum), Solanum pennellii, Solanum neorickii

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