Hi All. I'm new to the group. I have an ongoing project to breed a new Potato Onion (sometimes known as multiplier onions) and thought a discussion of the breeding process and ongoing results might be of interest.
https://longkeepingapples.com/PotatoOnions.html (https://longkeepingapples.com/PotatoOnions.html)
Welcome.
I assume you are familiar with the work of Kelly Winterton on potato onions. He's The Man in that area.
I've been experimenting with a wide variety of onions, growing but not breeding.
Standard commercial bulbing onions don't do well for me. I've tried many varieties, tried sets, transplants, and seeds, and while they will all grow, the bulbs remain small.
I've tried potato onions and shallots with good success. They multiply nicely, grow well, and provide stalks for green onions and bulbs to eat, as well as plant the next year. But mine do not produce seeds, so I can't breed these
Egyptian walking onions do extremely well here. They grow almost like a weed, and are the first thing up in early spring. They are an excellent source of green onion stalks. However, they don't produce many bulbs (though they are definitely a multiplier type), and I have never gotten seeds, only bulbils.
I'm also growing desert I'itoi onions. These are not terribly well adapted to Vermont, preferring a drier climate. They supposedly date back to at least 1699. They are small, with tiny bulbs, short narrow stalks, excellent onion flavor, and under the right conditions they multiply like mad. Think of them as an onion dense ground cover! But they don't produce seeds for me either.
So there are many types of onion worthy of breeding and experiments, but getting them to produce seeds can be challenging.
> I assume you are familiar with the work of Kelly Winterton on potato onions. He's The Man in that area.
Oh yes. I'm fairly sure the Potato Onions seeds I did obtain are derived descendants of his work.
I noticed that you mentioned in another thread that none of the seed heads from your Potato Onions were viable. I'm fortunate that mine, probably because they are only nominally derived from historical Potato Onions, were prolific to normal onion standards. Of course I don't know yet if the resulting seeds are actually viable - I will post the results to this group in the spring.
>I'm also growing desert I'itoi onions. These are not terribly well adapted to Vermont, preferring a drier climate.
Those sound very interesting - the lack of seeds is frustrating.
For several years I lived in a semi arid area where potato onions would flower and set seed regularly. I started breeding them for larger size and different colours. Mine had a lot of diversity, so they made progress quickly.
The only advice I will give is don't be greedy like I was. I was greedy, I selected for larger size at the expense of anything else. I had several lines the size of large store bought onions. These still divided well enough to be considered potato onions.
Then I moved somewhere milder and wetter. They did not store well out of the ground, and in a less arid climate most rotted in the soil. After a particularly wet year I lost them all, and it was entirely avoidable.
>The only advice I will give is don't be greedy like I was. I was greedy, I selected for larger size at the expense of anything else. I had several lines the size of large store bought onions. These still divided well enough to be considered potato onions. Then I moved somewhere milder and wetter. They did not store well out of the ground, and in a less arid climate most rotted in the soil. After a particularly wet year I lost them all, and it was entirely avoidable.
Hmmmm... now that you mention it, this does seem to be my current plan going forward. I wonder how I can avoid such narrow vertical selection? I'm now thinking that continously introducing new genes from a diverse set of single bulb onions rather than constantly crossing my best Potato Onions with themselves might help. That, and keeping a large supply of seed on hand.
Thank you for bringing this up. I am open to other suggestions as to how to mitigate this. I am loathe to import bulbs - Onion White Rot is very common in the UK and I don't have it. I suppose I could grow the imports in pots for the purpose of setting seed and then discard the soil.
Follow Winterton's suggestion to soak your multiplier onion bulbs in a 5:1 water/bleach mixture for 5-10 minutes before planting. It won't hurt the bulbs, it reduces risk of disease, and can actually produce larger bulbs.
Some potato onions store better than others. I have found that fall planting is more reliable than spring planting even in my cold zone 4 climate. I lose more bulbs in storage in the house if I wait until spring.
However, I haven't seen much difference in actual plant size or productivity, spring vs. fall. The spring plants quickly catch up to the fall plants in size.
Multiplier onions have probably been selected over generations to suppress seed formation. Until Winterton, few tried to select in the other direction. Winterton had a single year that just happened to produce seed, and that got him started.
Even when multiplier onions produce a few seed pods in my garden, the pods are empty, no seeds.
The hardest part of breeding multiplier onions is the first step, getting them to produce seeds. Winterton found that if you propagate seed-prolific multiplier onions by cloning for several generations, they lose the ability to seed readily.
The best long term bet is probably a landrace that is propagated by seed every year, with little or no cloning, and started with seed obtained from others (rather than trying to get seed from cloned bulbs).
I'itoi can probably be induced to flower and seed occasionally, and then propagated by seed. I've been searching for other varieties of onion with the small, dense growing habit (which would likely be relatives of I'itoi), but haven't found any references to them anywhere.
Hello! Welcome to the forum.
I've been growing what I refer to as "shallots" for a few years now; they are of course basically potato onions or at least wanna-bes. It started when I planted "shallots" from the grocery store - these would be a seed-grown hybrid of some form, but unknown to me which one - and they did not produce any seed the next year. So, I forgot about them and planted Cuisse de Poulet du Poitou (aka Zebrune or Banana). These crossed extravagantly with the hybrid shallots which were still lurking about in an herb bed. I packed up the seed from each, labelled "short shallots" (supermarket) and "tall shallots" (CdPdP). The offspring of those were basically indistinguishable, and while I still have and still plant some of the original seed (it is now very old as onion seed goes, but still viable as it has been in the deep freeze for most of the time)I am also working on some subsequent generations.
Very, very slowly; shallots are number 3 on the list of alliums we save seed from meaning that it doesn't often happen. We have some onions in our main bed we let to go to seed, and some we grow out in pots in front of the house to isolate as much as possible (not 100%) and there is no third position, so...
However, I have some shallots saved to go out in the pots this year so I'm paying attention to this project again.
What I immediately noted what that I had 2 different behaviors in this group of onions. There were ones that died down nicely for storage, and did split, but not a lot (and not always); and there were ones that stayed very green into winter and started up again very early in the spring, and split with abandon. At first I was not interested in these but left a few in the ground for early and late eating which of course I didn't do, not completely, so they are still here. I've come to be quite keen on them. I thought that they make a uniquely tasty green onion, the splitting is epic, and I've set aside one clone that splits, flowers greatly, and does form small to mid-sized shallots that can be stored at least for a while. Because of our seed problem, all flowers have been pinched off so I don't know how fertile they are or what they produce.
The problem with this clone is that sometimes the flowering stalks come up the outside of the bulb, and are easily removed when cleaning the shallots for use. Others go up through the centre and are harder to remove and more likely to make the whole shallot go bad when they die down. Since this is a clone I suppose this is more of an environmental response than a genetic one, but nevertheless I am attempting to weed out the centre-flowerers and keep the side-flowerers. We will see in a few years if this is making any difference.
This was very rambling; sorry. Now I want to list some of my goals and observations:
1.) I find ALL onions grown from seed are actually perennials; they are only biennials for agricultural purposes. Every onion we have grown from seed - quite a few - have mostly persisted after flowering unless removed. I am planning to throw some Rose de Roscoff in with the shallots as they have a slightly shalloty flavour to my mind, and they are a bit prone to splitting normally. Let it be noted we have very well draining sandy soil, I'm sure that's a factor in their survival.
2.) Bulbils have appeared on a good number of onions we've grown. Quite a few showed up in the original cross described above. My belief is that there is a genetic component to their appearance, but also a strong environmental factor. What triggers a plant to go one way or another is beyond me, but it's a definite allium strategy.
3.) I'd like to develop a classic storage shallot: plant seed, minor splitting first year, some get replanted and split more, but also produces seeds that come true to type.
4.) I'd also like to follow my clone some more. Is it self-fertile? If it is not, what do I cross it with? How much do subsequent generations resemble the parent? Can I select out the centre-flowering types and have side-flowering ones only?
I too am going to note that there is such a thing as too big and too juicy. I think I am more of a cook than many of the growers on this site so I am less likely to fall into this error, because I tend to like vegetables that can be used in one cooking session. I'd rather use 2 or 3 shallots or onions in a recipe if it calls for a lot, than to be cutting up onions and sticking them in the fridge to stink it up if the recipe calls for a little. Generally, medium onions are medium for a reason - they are a convenient size.
"I think I am more of a cook than many of the growers on this site..."
I, at least, am a pretty serious cook, including Mexican, Sichuan, Hunan, Vietnamese, and Pakistani (Moghul) cooking.
Right, so you are not part of that group then. But I do see people pursuing traits that perplex me as being all about the growing and nothing about the cooking and eating. Not everyone, not all the time.
Love hearing about your project Ferdzy. Keep us posted. Very food oriented myself, so I appreciate the comments... and I really agree, the medium sized onion is perfect for many recipes.
OTOH, a small shallot or onion is perfect for some - topping a pizza for example. Even the medium is too big not to have it left over.
So my vote would be for multiple sizes, rather than selecting for one.
Also if I read correctly, you plant small potato onions to get large ones, and plant large ones to produce a bunch of smalls, which you then plant to get large ones? So it seems you would need both?
I didn't get anywhere with the plan to cross the perennial flowering shallots with an onion or other shallot - I tried but didn't succeed in getting the onion to flower at the same time. So that has turned into a mostly bee project, for the perennial flowers, at least until opportunity knocks.
Hi A.Pel,
Onion White Rot does not have to be the 'game over' disease you seem to fear. IMHO the reason its control isn't better known is that no one can market it! The solution is (on the one hand) too simple, but also not instantaneous, so doesn't fit with 'quick fix' culture.
Basically, in season one decide where you want to grow onions in season two. Wait until the soil temp is above 10C. Get a few cloves of garlic and liquidize them with a food blender. Water the juice onto the soil. Job done. (If the ground in question is known to be badly infected it might be worth turning the soil and repeating the process.)
White rot spores are very long lived, but they sprout when they 'smell' onion. Watering the ground with garlic juice tricks them into sprouting, but in the absence of live onion plants to infect they die.
Tim DH
PS I like your apple list. ... But it doesn't include my favourite long keeper, 'Relinda', which will store until June.
Hi Steph! No, the size shouldn't fluctuate all that much. I just find when grown from seed it can take a year for them to really start splitting.
Most of my projects are initiated by the bees. I try, but the bees are the real pros.
"Also if I read correctly, you plant small potato onions to get large ones, and plant large ones to produce a bunch of smalls, which you then plant to get large ones? So it seems you would need both?"
That's the standard wisdom, yes. And while it's not 100% true, I find it is the most common pattern I see.
A small bulb will usually form a single large bulb. A large bulb will usually form 3 - 5 small bulbs.
So I always plant a mix, eating some small and some large.
I also agree that for cooking, a range of bulb sizes is best. I have plenty of recipes that call for a single (i e., small) shallot.
BTW, potato onions are botanically a type of shallot. So if you are doing online research, you'll probably find a lot more information if you search on "shallots" rather than just potato onions.
Now when it comes to I'itoi and their close relatives, I have trouble finding any information at all. Most web information on them are reposts quoting the same article on their supposed history, requests for information that get no answers, or a few home growers that are growing and eating them. There doesn't seem to be a Kelly Winterton of I'itoi.
Thank you everyone for all your valuable advice and tips - I really appreciate them.
Ferdzy:> The problem with this clone is that sometimes the flowering stalks come up the outside of the bulb, and are easily removed when cleaning the shallots for use.
I think all, or nearly all of mine are like that. The thought occurs that the stalk may make the onion woody and inedible. I have not yet got enough onions to spare in order to cut any up for cooking. Perhaps at the end of the next season. Well worth considering selecting for the external stalk growth pattern.
Ferdzy:> I find ALL onions grown from seed are actually perennials; they are only biennials for agricultural purposes. Every onion we have grown from seed - quite a few - have mostly persisted after flowering unless removed
This fits in quite well with what I have seen elsewhere in my garden. It would be very good if this were true of my Potato Onions.
Ferdzy:> Bulbils have appeared on a good number of onions we've grown. Quite a few showed up in the original cross described above.
I rather suspected that bubil heads must be reasonably common. To have a one in a million event show up in my patch seems improbable.
Tim DH:> Onion White Rot does not have to be the 'game over' disease you seem to fear. IMHO the reason its control isn't better known is that no one can market it! The solution is (on the one hand) too simple, but also not instantaneous, so doesn't fit with 'quick fix' culture.
Oh, my word - I had never heard of this - and the reasoning certainly seems plausible. I will send your suggested solution over to a friend who is plagued with White Rot.
Tim DH:> PS I like your apple list. ... But it doesn't include my favourite long keeper, 'Relinda', which will store until June.
Thanks. I will try to obtain a Relinda tree for my collection. I intend to add a "Long Storing" section to the website when I have collected a few more examples. In reality the "Long Keeping on the Tree" characteristic is just an easy to observe and record metric for long storing. The idea being that if an apple can stay on the tree until February then it can probably store till February as well. I have not been able to conclusively prove this theory yet though as my trees are mostly too young to produce fruit yet. Once I get a ready supply I can do side by side comparisons on a number of varieties to test this.
Hi A.Pel,
There is a bit of info. on the web hinting at variations of the White Rot treatment. .. Try this for instance:
https://www.gardenfocused.co.uk/fruitarticles/pest-disease/white-rot-allium.php
What you'll really struggle to find is info. about controlling Club Root (of brassicas) by a similar means. It's the same scenario, just use liquidised cabbage of some description, in stead of garlic.
Tim DH
I'm joining in on this thread as I've recently started a grow out project with potato onions with a aim of getting seed for our website.
On the subject of white rot, Ive had the spores in my soil for over 23years and what Ive found is as you improve the soil the number of infected plants go down. Summer just gone I had no plants onion plants showing signs of infections. Garlic - I go back 15 years ago where I was loosing 50% of my beds, nowadays its no more than 2%.
I have not had any luck getting my potato onions to produce seed. Has anyone here found a way to encourage this that does not involve starting from seed initially?
I planted about 100 of last years seeds from my potato onions this spring. Only two germinated. The ability to reproduce from seed has well and truely been bred out of them. That has to be put back in so I am crossing in other varieties this year to see what might come of it.
At least the two that did germinate look to be strong plants.