Anyone know much about salsify?
Thinking about trying it next year.
http://www.mofga.org/Publications/The-Maine-Organic-Farmer-Gardener/Winter-2013-2014/Salsify
Only found two varieties:
https://www.adaptiveseeds.com/product/vegetables/roots-misc/salsify-fiore-blu-organic/
https://www.seedsavers.org/mammoth-sandwich-island-salsify
John Jeavons lists it as a high calorie root crop. Which is a pretty important and short list. So few varies exist it doesnt seem like much work has been done with it. I reckon for a breeding project options are to cross these two or or find some wild material as its a fairly widespread wild plant (non-native) and cross the wild x domestic strains. There are some interesting hybrids between the wild species. A good first step might be to try or trial mammoth sandwich island, fiore blu, and the wild type and see what the differences are. I want to know if the improved types are much of an improvement, which variety yields best, what they taste like, if they can be dry farmed on my land, and how well they grow in my climate. Curious about if they self, cross readily, or might even do apomixis.
I don't know much about it, but was thinking of doing the same thing. It grows very well around here as a weed. I tried some once, it was very fibrous and not very appealing. It was put into "I know I can eat that if there is a famine, but would rather not if I dont have to" group... But looking at Queen Annes Lace, I think Salsify is in a much better place to domesticate then QAL, and look how nice carrots turned out!
I haven't seen or tried the semi domesticated varieties either.
There is one more variety for sure on the seed savers exchange "Luethy"
Thats rather interesting Nicholas that what you tried was very fibrous and not very appealing. I replied to Williams post also on HGG about my growing of Salsify. Ive grown my unknown white skin variety for many years and is not fibrous and very nice tasting, up there with there with the parsnip i think.
This coming winter the plants seen in the photo will be dug and i'll look to see if there's some with less lateral roots than the others for seed production. Giving them plenty of room to grow is the key to getting a wide root, about 3-4 cm in diameter.
(https://i.ibb.co/f8zX9J9/IMG-20181127-065403-resized-20181127-065512694.jpg)
Richard, I tasted mine from a wild growing plant, it could of been pretty old, and our climate is alot harsher then yours in NZ, this could of been the difference?
Goes to show, you have to try something in your circumstances, whether that is something said to be terrible or raved about... I have tried many of the "raved" about varieties with very poor outcomes!
There's a patch of wild Salsify that grows on the side of the road 5mins drive away, this winter coming i should dig some up and see what they look like below ground.
The offer is there if anyone who would like some of my seed line, i'm picking seed off 10 plants every few day at the moment
Quote from: Richard Watson on 2018-11-27, 07:47:59 PM
There's a patch of wild Salsify that grows on the side of the road 5mins drive away, this winter coming i should dig some up and see what they look like below ground.
The offer is there if anyone who would like some of my seed line, i'm picking seed off 10 plants every few day at the moment
There is a wild plant here that now that I'v looked up pictures might be a wild strain. It's flowers if I remember right, are on tall stems, three feet or more with sort of daisy looking flower and dries like a big dandelion head. I'v just noticed it along the roads and never stopped to look close. I'v wondered what it is but never though it might be food.
I'd love to have some seeds to grow and see how it tastes and also so I can compare the plants to the wild ones and see for sure if they are same.
Quote from: reed on 2018-11-28, 02:20:37 AM
There is a wild plant here that now that I'v looked up pictures might be a wild strain. It's flowers if I remember right, are on tall stems, three feet or more with sort of daisy looking flower and dries like a big dandelion head. I'v just noticed it along the roads and never stopped to look close. I'v wondered what it is but never though it might be food.
I'd love to have some seeds to grow and see how it tastes and also so I can compare the plants to the wild ones and see for sure if they are same.
https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=TRAGO
https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=TRPO
Garden salsify is Tragopogon porrifolius a purple flowered salsify. If you look at the above links you can see how widespread this plant and it's relatives and hybrids are in the United States. For instance fifteen miles from where I currently reside there is a population in a neighborhood where I used to reside that wasn't present twenty to thirty years ago. Its close relative was- the yellow flowered Tragopogon dubious it is a decent wild edible, I like the flower buds. If the timing works out I may collect some seeds of the population I know of as well, from what little I've read I am not sure how domesticated these plants are so a comparison between wild and domesticated strains seems in order. Though it may also be that the wild patches are escaped domestics. I remember seeing one of the hybrid species in Cheney Washington years ago when my sister was living there and I was visiting. It was yellow flowered but much larger than the typical Tragopogon dubious that grows in Montana. It may have been Tragopogon miscillus or T. Mirus though they may be synonyms.
What grows wild here has yellow flowers. I did a little more research on it and for the nutrition alone is sounds like a great addition to the garden. The wild plants here grow among the common, very thick weeds and grasses in abandoned fields and just past the mowed edges of roads. it isn't extremely common but enough so it will be easy to gather seeds. I'm sure I won't recognize it till I see those flowers, I wonder if it would transplant at that stage. Also wonder if the different species easily cross.
I live on a dead end gravel road, about a mile to the blacktop and I plant stuff in the old fence lines up and down the road. Grapes, horseradish, garlic, anything that might take to that sort of environment, salsify sounds like a great candidate for that. Also want to actually tend to some too and see how it does.
I remember trying to grow salsify a long time ago in a heavy clay allotment. The plants grew very healthy looking greens, but the roots were of course remarkably thin and forked. Taste was mild and not woody, but it was too difficult to clean to keep growing it.
Having very light sand soil now, I should try to grow it again. My attempts to grow asparagus failed miserably, salsify root could be a hardy enough replacement.
Its the purple flowered variety that i have.
Thankfully ive never had to garden in a heavy clay soil but i would imagine that salsify would fork badly in that type of soil.
Richard, I'm looking forward to trying out the salsify you sent me. When and how should I plant it? Start for transplant in my cold frame along with broccoli and the like, which I'll be doing real soon. Start later with the tomatoes? Or direct seed around last frost time?
Also I'm wondering if you know, are there big herds of rabbits and deer hanging around waiting for me to plant it, in other words, does it have to go inside the fences or can I plant it in the yard?
They are frost hardy and ive always sown direct in the ground, so i reckon you could get them in now, last few weeks of winter I sow parsnips radishes and salsify.
But dont ask me about rabbits and deer, I dont have them bothering me but I would imagine deer would like em
Quote from: Richard Watson on 2018-11-26, 08:50:43 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/f8zX9J9/IMG-20181127-065403-resized-20181127-065512694.jpg)
This is how the bed is looking this morning, pretty much full grown now.
(https://i.ibb.co/BTMTs6N/001.jpg)
Salsify. Yum.
I figure that anything that tastes good canned, will taste even better fresh.
I'm waiting for the ground to thaw enough to get some out of the ground.
Black Salsify (Scorzonera hispanica) 'Enorma'
I haven't been able to pull them like carrots.
I can see that the long thin roots are an advantage if you are going to can them.
I prefer to be able to pull root crops by hand.
Wild Salsify (Tragopogon pratensis)
I bought seeds for this by accident last year.
Remembered the genus, but got the species wrong.
I now know that 'des pres' is not a varietal name. :)
Purple Salsify (Tragopogon porrifolius)
This year I made sure that I bought the correct species.
'Fiore Blu' and "Salsifis"
Yellow Salsify (Reichardia picriodes)
A friend is growing this, but I haven't heard the results yet.
I'm interested to know if it will survive the winter here.
...
Nice looking plants!
Yellow Salsify (Reichardia picriodes)
A friend is growing this, but I haven't heard the results yet.
I'm interested to know if it will survive the winter here.
Had to look this one up- Ive get the odd one of these that pop up on there own in the garden, dont know where they come from as I never let them flower.
It looks like myself and reed have Tragopogon porrifolius, wild salsify yet the taste is superb
Great looking plants Richard!
I managed to get 2 black salsify varieties and 3 x purple salsify from different sources.
The seed packs say that it is possible to autumn sow them or to spring sow as soon as the frost is out of the soil and it can be worked. They claim germination is better when the seeds went through cold vernalization.
The best before dates on the packs are rather short, just a year between seed harvest and last sale date/sow date. The seeds seem to get old quickly.
I'm still stuck in snow and ice, probably another 4 weeks until my soil can be worked. But it should be safe to sow now if you can.
The seed doesn't need verbalization as my plants that I took seed from in Dec had seedlings growing around during Feb, remembering its now early autumn here.
That struck me to be odd too, considering they grow wild in the Mediterranean areas which are not exactly famous for being frosty.
It's probably similar to carrots, they don't mind a cold start but that does not mean that they won't germinate during warmer times.
They are wild ove here as well (Belgium), from time to time I find them along road sides or more likely along railroad sides. A part of the ones that are growing in my garden germinate in spring and withstand the winter without any problem, another part germinates in spring, which is better. The autumn sown ones tend to form flowers /seeds in early summer, the spring sown ones grow out nicely in their first year and produce 'big' roots (although I've never seen them really big like carrots). They do have a tendency to fork here as well, but it's no problem, just take the garden hose and clean them, they don't need to be peeled. Removing the finest roots is however advisable, not everybody likes those thin 'hairs'. In my garden they resow themselves abundantly, I collect seeds as well.
Having early flowers is quite nice, they're pretty and you can eat the unopened flower buds (very tasty!), the leaves can also be eaten but to me they're nothing special.
I'm more than a little confused by by all the different scientific names I find when I do a search for this. Even the pictures are confusing. The pictures I find show that there is variation in what the flowers look like. What grows wild here has yellow flowers but from the pictures there is even more than one kind with yellow flowers.
O'well, I don't care I'll just plant it and see what it does, also will go dig up some wild ones. Too bad I'm not familiar enough to locate it until those distinctive flower buds show up. Suzann Ashworth's book says it will cross but I'm not sure if that means different purples or different yellows cross with each other or it it means purple and yellow will cross.
I hope as well as cultivate in the garden, to add it to the neighborhood wild population.
In the wildlands around here, salsify with yellow flowers, and salsify with purple flowers grow in the same patches. For whatever that's worth....
Did a little more searching and this https://www.minnesotawildflowers.info/flower/yellow-goats-beard (https://www.minnesotawildflowers.info/flower/yellow-goats-beard) is what looks most like what I see growing wild around here, in fact it looks exactly like it.
I'm excited about this plant because of it's ability to grow wild making it possible I think to establish nice productive patches with less effort than needed for most other food crops. Joseph, do you harvest and eat your local varieties?
Never seen Tragopogon dubius wild or sold by seed companies here in NZ, looks so like the T porrifolius in leaf and flower bud shape but only a different colour. Look forward to hearing back from you reed what differences there are between the two in terms of taste.
reed - I dont think wild patches will be that overly productive as they will more likely be autumn germinated and therefore wont have a descent size roots compared to late winter/spring sown, like with any biannual the longer the growing season in its first year the larger the roots .
Reed the kind in your link, sometimes called Western Salsify (as a standardized weed science English name) Tragopogon dubius is the common wild one here. I like the flower buds.
I've been noticing the purple ones in Polson MT in recent years.
I have purchased a packet of Fiore Blu. Have a packet of mammoth sandwich island on my wishlist.
Wow, look what I found now, https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Figure2-Typical-inflorescences-of-T-pratensis-T-porrifolius-and-hybrids-found-in-this_fig1_281464811 (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Figure2-Typical-inflorescences-of-T-pratensis-T-porrifolius-and-hybrids-found-in-this_fig1_281464811). These are worth it just for the flowers! But the article goes on to say that in 250 years of hybridization T pratensis and T porrifolius hae not made a new species.
But the article also says
Quoteboth parental species have formed new allopolyploid species through hybridization with another diploid, T. dubius.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281464811_250_years_of_hybridisation_between_two_biennial_herb_species_without_speciation (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281464811_250_years_of_hybridisation_between_two_biennial_herb_species_without_speciation)
So I can go dig up or collect seeds of wild T dubious and I'v got T porrifolius from Richard so all I need now is to get some T pratensis and throw em all together and let em do their thing.
Here is another picture of various hybrids,
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Polyploidy-and-novelty%3A-Gottlieb's-legacy.-Soltis-Liu/04a58ab6b49f64ab06ede38eee46e1ea53cde7c3/figure/1 (https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Polyploidy-and-novelty%3A-Gottlieb's-legacy.-Soltis-Liu/04a58ab6b49f64ab06ede38eee46e1ea53cde7c3/figure/1)
Goes a long way to explain why there is so much conflicting and erroneous info in the old blogasphere regarding these plants.
Wild Salsify:
https://www.lasocietedesplantes.com/produits/salsifis-des-pres/
No idea if they will ship to the USA. (If you e-mail in English you will likely get a response in English)
I took my Wild Salsify seeds to the Seedy Weekend, so I only have plants in the ground now.
If desired a enterprising botanist could track down herbarium records and find much of the Tragopogon diversity by returning to collection sites. Though one caveat is there is some potential for introducing a serious weed here. Tragopogon dubius is fairly aggressive.
Turning into a rather interesting thread this one.
I'm not sure which one I have now, T porrifolius or pratensis, what's the diference?? when I do a web search the same photos come up for both.
http://beta.floranorthamerica.org/wiki/Tragopogon
Looks like in FNEP porrifolius is purple and pratensis yellow.
Sarting to look to me like the family history of these plants is too convoluted and information about them is too muddled to know for sure. I was sure yesterday that what is growing wild here is T dubius but now I'm not as sure but I am sure the (T) part is accurate so I'm gonna adopt some into my garden along with what ever else I can get a hold of to plant. Info is muddled enough that people selling and specifically identifying what they are selling might be wrong.
It might be a weed by some definition but if it grows, has nice flowers, tastes good and is nutritious then the more "weedy" the better. It never used to be here or if it did it was rare, I know that. First time I noticed it was maybe ten years ago, those big tall dandelion like seed heads are very distinctive sticking up in the weeds along the road.
I'm sure growing in our hard packed clay soil that roots on the wild plants are probably not the highest quality but a nice healthy and diverse population growing wild would be pretty good insurance of a continuous supply of seeds for the garden.
Some questions,
When do you harvest the flowers? I'm guessing just before they open, and how do you cook them?
The plant is biannual not perennial? So it dies after flowering?
Can you dig up and replant to select for larger roots?
And another little tidbit from the web concerning (T. dubius and T. porrifolius), and (T. dubius and T. pratensis),
QuoteWe observe that the dynamic nature of polyploid genomes-with alterations in gene content, gene number, gene arrangement, gene expression and transposon activity-may generate sufficient novelty that every individual in a polyploid population or species may be unique. Whereas certain combinations of these features will undoubtedly be maladaptive, some unique combinations of newly generated variation may provide tremendous evolutionary potential and adaptive capabilities
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Polyploidy-and-novelty%3A-Gottlieb's-legacy.-Soltis-Liu/04a58ab6b49f64ab06ede38eee46e1ea53cde7c3 (https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Polyploidy-and-novelty%3A-Gottlieb's-legacy.-Soltis-Liu/04a58ab6b49f64ab06ede38eee46e1ea53cde7c3)
I eat the flower buds of Tragopogon dubius whenever I find them, It is opportunistic so I am not trying to optimize size or flavor. They seem pretty mild so far as long as they are in bud. I eat them raw, haven't gotten enough together to cook yet.
T. Dubius is biennial and dies after flowering. Really I think it is more of a fall or early spring germinating annual.
My first field season back in 2002 I did something called Daubenmire plots. We would analyze what was growing in a series of tiny squares. Tragopogon dubius has been present at approximately the same abundance my whole life in Montana. In the small squares there was almost always a tiny Tragopogon dubius seedling. I can only conclude from this that almost every seed lands and germinates and later most of the seedlings die. You can always tell the tiny seedlings from a grass seedling by ripping a tiny bit of a leaf off, it will bleed white latex.
I don't know anything about transplanting them specifically. However it's a rare plant of grassland habitats that won't transplant. Around here I know of only three. Perennial lupines, stoneseed (Lithospermum ruderale), and arrow leaf balsamroot. I had great success with doing my transplanting very early in the spring and using a mister nozzle on them frequently.
Thanks for the info on the flower buds.
I've read several recipes for salsify that say to scrub, but not peel the roots.
Wild Salsify:
Less scientific, but interesting (if you can read French).
If nothing else, there is a list of common names in various languages.
https://www.complements-alimentaires.co/salsifis-pres/
I've added the Western Salsify (T. dubious) to my list of "Salsifies".
There have been many times when I have cursed the abundance of common names, often applied to multiple species.
Black Salsify Scorzonera hispanica Yellow flowers; Black skinnned roots. Biennial, perennial in mild climates (?).
(Scorzonera; Spanish Salsify; Viper's Grass; Black Oyster Plant)
Purple Salsify Tragopogon porrifolius Purple flowers; White roots. Biennial.
(Oyster Plant; Havrerod; Haverwortel; Hawwerwurtzel; Vegtable Oyster; John-Go-To-Bed-At-Noon)
Wild Salsify Tragopogon pratensis Yellow flowers; White roots. Biennial.
(Meadow Salsify; Jack-Go-To-Bed-At-Noon; Goat's Beard; Barbe de bouc; Barbouzet; Salsifis: des prés, sauvage, bâtard, d'Orient)
Western Salsify Tragopogon dubius Yellow flowers. Biennial.
Yellow Salsify Reichardia picriodes Yellow flowers. (Might be perennial in some climates)
(R. macrophylla; Picridium vulgare; French Scorzonera; Brighteyes; Common brighteyes)
(Gaaah!)
Quote from: reed on 2019-03-02, 02:47:26 AM
The plant is biannual not perennial? So it dies after flowering?
I'm sure they are biannual, though this summer I only took as much seed as I needed and pulled them out otherwise there would be seedlings popping up everywhere
Quote from: reed on 2019-03-02, 02:47:26 AMCan you dig up and replant to select for larger roots?
Cant see why not, I'll report back on how this goes about October
Right then, its the Tragopogon porrifolius I have
Black Salsify, and Yellow Salsify both are listed as having perennial tendancies in mild climates.
I don't yet know if the Black Salsify will be perennial in my climate.
It's awfully cold hardy though...I was waiting for the foliage to die back before harvest, but the snow arrived first.
Two introduced species in Australia
yellow flowers
http://plantnet.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/NSWfl.pl?page=nswfl&lvl=sp&name=Tragopogon~dubius
purple flowers
http://plantnet.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/NSWfl.pl?page=nswfl&lvl=in&name=Tragopogon~porrifolius+subsp.~porrifolius
and one Scorzonera, with two subspecies
http://plantnet.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/NSWfl.pl?page=nswfl&lvl=in&name=Scorzonera~laciniata+var.~calcitrapifolia
I bought a seed packet last week I think it was from Franchi Simenti
GM
I went out yesterday and got a nice spot ready to plant mine, could do so anytime. Our weather is supposed to be going into the 60s or even 70s F in next few days but could easily go back to the teens or colder again. I wonder is it safe to plant or should I wait a little bit?
I know my seedling at the same point of the growing would be fine, but then they dont get put through the same level of spring cold periods you can get.
I may hold off a little on planting or maybe plant a few and the rest later. I don't care if roots don't get real big this year cause I mostly just want to increase seed. I'll dig a couple to taste but mostly leave them to bloom next year. Once I have lots of seed I can treat them like I do a lot of other things, plant as early as I want and replant later if necessary.
We have thunderstorms in the forecast next couple days and long range doesn't suggest anything much below freezing for 10 days so I'm gonna go ahead and plant mine real soon. I was thinking of putting a couple seeds on the heat mat today so I can see what the seedlings look like.
They are a big seedling when they come through, very distinctive and easy to pick as to what they are.
I'm tired of waiting so I'm gonna go out tomorrow and plant stuff! Salsify, radish, mustard, lettuce, what ever else I find when I dig in to the seed chest this evening.
Really looking forward to seeing what the salsify is and how it tastes, will also be on the lookout for the wind kind growing around. I'm afraid I won't recognize it till it's blooming but I remember pretty close to where some is, maybe I'll get lucky and find it early on and transplant some. I bet form description of how it grows it might not be an easy transplant, specially in spring or summer but as long as I find plenty I'll give it a go.
The wild salsify around the neighborhood are blooming right now. I guess if it is biannual not much us in digging any up to transplant but there is pretty good population of it so should be able to collect a lot of seeds pretty soon.
My patch from Richard's seeds is getting established. It was slow at first and some died after sprouting. I think there was too much un-composted material in the bed I made for it and it dried out to easily. Sill I got several nice strong plants going.
Pleased my seed is doing it for you Mark.
We have been eating our winter block, done really well but haven't yet come across any yet that are less 'hairy' that I want to save for seed, only need two of three. Got two bolters at the moment, a sign of how unseasonably warm its been this autumn.
I reckon I could dig up a wild plant or two to see what the root looks like, but I suppose it wouldn't be good to eat being in it's second season? Also just thought if there are non-blooming first year plants they should be nearby. Think I'll take along a shovel over the weekend ans see what I find.
Ive not wanted to stop to check the roadside plants till now, though it would be interesting to see how well the root would turn out from wild seed if grown in my free draining deep soil instead the hard dry road side soils.
I'm all about adopting anything wild that can be food. I don't even care if it isn't the biggest or best, if it grows without help and all I go to do is harvest it then I want all I can get. And like you say if it grows at all in the nasty gravel along roads it might do real good with a little cultivation. Actually though the biggest patch I'm watching is well off the road competing with tall grass and other weeds, that's the patch I where I hope to find some first year plants to dig up. I'll just collect seeds form the roadside plants.
The wild yellow flowered salsify is about blooming so should be able to collect seed pretty soon. There is a lot of it and some is actually in easy walking distance, toms more here and there along the roads. I dug up one small plant to see what the roots looked like. Not much too it, maybe five inches long about as big as a pencil. O'well I still want to give it a go in the garden.
My patch from Richard's seeds is looking pretty good I think.
They look very happy and healthy and they are huge plants already!
Mine are super thin and just about the length of a finger. I sowed mine right when the soil had thawed, they eventually sprouted fine and also survived late snowfall and frosts without any issues. No pests on them at all so far, it's a flea beetle and aphid year here, they are everywhere except on the salsify.
But I am getting the feeling that salsify will be a spring crop for me. I don't think they will be ready to harvest before my soil freezes in October.
I am also noticing big differences is growth between the three different seed packages I sowed. In viability of seed and growth. The pack from Italy had expired months ago, just got it because it was discounted so much that it was basicly free. Did not expect many plants from it, but viability was still better than the packs from two different Swedish seed sources (Mammoth Sandwich Island and an unnamed salsify). Also the Italian one is 2cm taller than the other two, in just about ~3 weeks of growth. It could mean that the Italian ones are more domestic than the other two.
Looking good alright reed.
Doro- cant see why you wont get goods roots from now till October. If you could get seed from the Italian variety would be worth carrying on with.
I'll probably only dig a root or two, just to see how big it got and to sample it for flavor. I want to leave most of mine to go to seed next year.
Could do what I'm going to do soon and it is dig em up and replant the best roots.
It could be ready in autumn if we get a decent summer Richard. But it looks like a short cold growing season this year, so I'm not sure. There is not much info around on how salsify behaves in my growing zone, but the few things I found were indicating that a spring harvest might give better results here. I will check the root size in autumn, if it's too small I might even measure some and see if/how much they grow until spring harvest.
Spring harvested parsnip can grow a lot compared to their autumn size, salsify could behave similar.
Dont follow what you mean spring and autumn harvesting as to when you sow those seeds
What I meant was that salsify might be a crop that takes a year to give a decent harvest in my climate. They seem to need a lot of growing time to make a thicker root.
I had my last frost mid May, first frost can be mid August in a bad year and soil is usually frozen rock solid October to April. That's probably not long or warm enough to grow more than a toothpick sized root.
I sow in spring as soon as the soil thaws. But if the roots are too thin in autumn I will just leave them in the soil over the winter and harvest next spring as late as possible, shortly before they go to flower.
I do the same with some parsnip roots. I don't harvest them all in autumn. Some are left in the soil during winter and harvested the following spring. They bulk up more and grow each time it's warm enough. I thought that was a common technique, but maybe it isn't?
I get what you mean now.
So the frozen soil doesn't effect the roots then.
If they behave like parsnip, my winter should not harm them. Taste could even be improved (more sweetness) by freezing.
That's what I'm expecting and hoping for :)
If the salsify behaves like carrots or radish though... I'll find soggy mush and rootshaped holes in spring. Fingers crossed that it's not going to happen.
Scorzonera about to flower:
[BLACK SALSIFY (Scorzonera; Spanish Salsify; Viper's Grass; Black Oyster Plant)]
Wild Salsify (Tragopogon pratensis) about to flower:
[Wild Salsify (Meadow Salsify; Jack-Go-To-Bed-At-Noon; Goat's Beard; Barbe de bouc; Barbouzet; Salsifis: des prés, sauvage, bâtard, d'Orient)]
In the background you can see the Scorzonera flower stalk (behind the Oenothera biennis).
Scorzonera has such a different pattern.
Ive got two bolting wild Salsify plants trying to flower atm, now that we are into winter they will not be one that I would be added to the batch I'll be using
Thanks for the insight into shorter growing season and overwintering and spring harvest.
I can't stand the taste of parsnip until after frost.
Are the roots harvested in the second growing season still sweet?
Quote from: Doro on 2019-06-02, 01:41:05 AM
If they behave like parsnip, my winter should not harm them. Taste could even be improved (more sweetness) by freezing.
That's what I'm expecting and hoping for :)
If the salsify behaves like carrots or radish though... I'll find soggy mush and rootshaped holes in spring. Fingers crossed that it's not going to happen.
The Scorzonera that I planted last year seem very hardy.
It sneered at frost, and was the last plant to stay green in the garden last fall.
The foliage emerged about the same time as my garlic.
I can see why this plant was/is used for early salad greens!
No idea if it will behave as biennial or a perennial yet.
Not all the wild salsify survived last winter, but then, neither did the sage, thyme, and most of the pennyroyal.
So it is possible that the scorzonera is more winterhardy than the wild salsify.
I'm also comparing apples and oranges, of course. ;)
I'll be planting my salsify seeds soon.
The parsnips stay sweet during a long time in spring. They become less sweet again when night frosts are over. By then the flower stalks are developing and the roots are getting woody. I stop eating the last ones middle of May most years.
I like savoury autumn parsnip, but it has a more narrow use in the kitchen than sweet spring parsnip. Have you tried eating the autumn parsnip in stews, casseroles or with oven roasted chicken/duck? That's my favourite ways of using it :)
Salsify is the frist of the winter roots crops to dig-select and replant for spring. From the 30+ plants 7 were chosen which had the best tap roots, one plant was also chosen just for its share size 8cm diameter, thought it might help maintain vigor.
Sorry not the best photo, winter sun is not the best for getting good shots.
(https://i.ibb.co/HxHmJGw/001.jpg)
Do you go ahead and replant them right away?
Yep, but I couldn't go and redo the photo. There were two bolters trying to produce flowers also, the frosts we have been having have killed off the buds, not that I wanted to take seed from these anyway. Still, happy with crop and to have found a few reasonable carrot/parsnip type tap roots, the rest of the crop had lots of lateral roots. Oh well, this is the first time doing any selection work with Salsify, will be interesting to see if there's any improvement in the next generation.
Scorzonera flower.
It was rainy yesterday, so they stayed open longer than usual.
Must try and grow some Scorzonera too.
A Salsify that I biffed in the roasting pan last night, happy with the width bit its the length I want to work
(https://i.ibb.co/ThHgjnQ/IMG-20190612-162331-resized-20190613-075042768.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vzJjyrN)
I haven't googled the identity yet, but I think this is the third flower in two days, judging by the damage so far.
Tragopogon pratensis (Wild salsify), and vegetarian enthusiast.
Two of my salsify rows are left, the third row had such poor germination that I removed them and replaced with something else.
The Italian scorzobianca is to the right and the Swedish seed are to the left. They got remarkably different leafs and the Italian one seems to grow a lot better.
Here is my little salsify patch as of today. Not sure what to do with it now. We got probably at least another 90 days of season with much of it likely hot and dry. I'v watered it a couple times recently and am going to mulch with semi-rotted wood chips. Tempted to dig up a couple and see what they look/taste like but afraid they might not survive being replanted right now and I do want seeds next year. A lot of perennial things here will dry down and go dormant this time of year, wonder how this will handle it.
The wild yellow flowers kind bloomed quite awhile back and I'v collected bunches of seed. I think I'll plant some a little later this year and then some more next spring.
reed - they are doing so well, you should get some good sized roots.
Doro - having never grown scorzobianca I will be keen to read what you think the difference in the taste is.
Quote from: Doro on 2019-07-05, 06:42:39 AM
Two of my salsify rows are left, the third row had such poor germination that I removed them and replaced with something else.
The Italian scorzobianca is to the right and the Swedish seed are to the left. They got remarkably different leafs and the Italian one seems to grow a lot better.
The "Scorzobianca" looks like
Scorzonera hispanica to me.
I recall reading somewhere that scorzonera translates as "rough black root"
I didn't realize that there might be a variety with a white skin. (Scorz-bianco/nera)
It will be interesting to see what the root colour is.
Purple Salsify (
Tragopogon porrifolius) young plants in my garden.
Yes, that is Purslane in between the rows....it's finally warm enough that it germinated.
Edit: Sept. 1; Added third picture.
Did you sow the Purslane or does it volunteer in your garden
Scorzobianca is just the Italian word for regular salsify, Tragopogon porrifolius. So it should be the same as the swedish seed... at least that's what the seed pack said. Autumn will tell what it is ;D I'd not be unhappy if it's actually black salsify, Scorzonera hispanica. I sowed that too, but with this difficult spring nothing came up in those rows.
Quote from: Richard Watson on 2019-07-05, 10:55:57 PM
Did you sow the Purslane or does it volunteer in your garden
The purslane volunteers.
Elsewhere in the garden I call it a weed. :)
I'm doing an informal experiment: will these two plants play well together. I will pick and eat half, once it gets large enough, and keep that part clear afterwards.
Seed collection has begun!
Quote from: reed on 2019-03-01, 03:52:55 PM
Wow, look what I found now, https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Figure2-Typical-inflorescences-of-T-pratensis-T-porrifolius-and-hybrids-found-in-this_fig1_281464811 (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Figure2-Typical-inflorescences-of-T-pratensis-T-porrifolius-and-hybrids-found-in-this_fig1_281464811). These are worth it just for the flowers! But the article goes on to say that in 250 years of hybridization T pratensis and T porrifolius hae not made a new species.
But the article also says https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281464811_250_years_of_hybridisation_between_two_biennial_herb_species_without_speciation (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281464811_250_years_of_hybridisation_between_two_biennial_herb_species_without_speciation)
So I can go dig up or collect seeds of wild T dubious and I'v got T porrifolius from Richard so all I need now is to get some T pratensis and throw em all together and let em do their thing.
Here is another picture of various hybrids,
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Polyploidy-and-novelty%3A-Gottlieb's-legacy.-Soltis-Liu/04a58ab6b49f64ab06ede38eee46e1ea53cde7c3/figure/1 (https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Polyploidy-and-novelty%3A-Gottlieb's-legacy.-Soltis-Liu/04a58ab6b49f64ab06ede38eee46e1ea53cde7c3/figure/1)
Goes a long way to explain why there is so much conflicting and erroneous info in the old blogasphere regarding these plants.
Righto, just had a glance throught that non speciation paper - and the kicker to me seems that in the offspring examined of pratensis x porrifolius were all diploid. Maybe the crosses with dibius somehow are more likely to spontaneously double and form allopolyploids and speciate (or are more weedy and hit with herbicide more frequently).
Seems like a ripe opertunity for those with the plants and some Oryzalin in the cupboard to see what happens.
Really good work Richard on the more carrot like salsify roots.
Just a thought, the short stumpy carrots which grow well in clay are a result of some very particulary stubborn person selecting for okay carrots on clay soil. Persistance is perhaps the key.
Cheers
Steve
Salsify grows wild around here (SW Idaho), and seems to do fine in drought conditions (as a plant—not necessarily for cultivation; I can't say one way or the other there). When they go to seed, they look like giant dandelions. I never knew they were root vegetables until about a year or two ago. It's an infrequent weed in my garden.
Here's some by Eagle Island state park, in or near Eagle, Idaho. (The pictures were taken on 28 June 2019.)
Grew the Fiore Blu and Giant Sandwich Island now for two years. Got a lot of seed back. Replanted some of it. Need that Luthy. Didn't get any wild seed of Tragopogon porrifolius yet. Though it seems to be brown pappus and the dubious white so if I ever find wild salsify with brown pappus I'll be picking it.
I guess because I am a seed nerd with growing seed as a first priority I just grew seed and mixed the seeds of Fiore Blu and Giant Sandwich Island. I thought that perhaps the first seeds planted and harvested were Fiore Blu, and some of the latter or maybe even 2021's whole harvest mammoth sandwich island. Though I am not even really sure what I have or if any had the chance to hybridize between the two varieties. So my proto grex is of an uncertain status. Going forward I suspect I need new packets of Fiore Blu, Mammoth Sandwich Island, and Luthy plus the proto grex. Perhaps if in a bed all four lots were planted I could start to learn the varietal differences if any. From above ground growth. Flowers looked the same, plant size varied. Seeds looked the same.
So if as I suspect from "How to Grow More Vegetables" rating it as one of only 7 root crops basically capable of supporting a vegan climate friendly diet and thus this is an important crop to work on, I am still in the infancy of understanding it both as a vegetable and as a potential breeding project.
There is also the question of within varietal variation. I just did a quick search of the ARS GRIN database finding a single accession referrable to Mammoth Sandwich Island. Which is certainly the dominant variety and likely that utilized by the How to Grow More Vegetables book researchers.
So what variation is there within Mammoth Sandwich Island as well as variation between MSI, Fiore Blu, Luthy, and wild population? Though it is entirely possible many wild populations are feral and if so the most likely culprit would be Mammoth Sandwich Island.
If variation doesn't exist there isn't much basis for breeding! Though there is that interspecies hybrid possibility.
I gave some seed to a coworker and they didn't plant it- too weird they said. Still not really being fully utilized by me though I now have a plentitude of proto grex seed.
One other note: seems to suffer from a rust more than Tragopogon dubius the likely source and carrier.
Another seed does not seem to fully naturally disperse as well as Tragopogon dubius seed. Perhaps some domestication / lack of function accumulation.
Simply looking at photos of the three available varieties online:
Luthy: Described as a land race and looks variable in a photo.
Fiore Blu: uniform slender roots in a photo
Mammoth Sandwich Island: often represented as a large root.
Wild type: could look at herbarium specimens in online images. Just looked at a bunch through the Burke herbarium both photos of live plants and photos of specimens. Roots look small but that could be from selection for good specimens to mount. I know when I flatten a plant I often try to find a herbarium sheet sized one.
I'm seeing mention of Mammoth Sandwich Island and Black salsify.
Are we discussing Tragopogon and Scorzonera genus?
I grew a purple flowered Tragopogon the past two years, only flowers for about a day.
There are some different types available on Etsy.
Quote from: Garrett Schantz on 2021-11-06, 06:24:27 PM
I'm seeing mention of Mammoth Sandwich Island and Black salsify.
Are we discussing Tragopogon and Scorzonera genus?
I grew a purple flowered Tragopogon the past two years, only flowers for about a day.
There are some different types available on Etsy.
I've just been talking about Tragopogon species aka salsify though a few others mentioned scorzonera the catalogues used to sell both in one section but they aren't the same thing. I'm not that intrigued by scorzonera.
Was just looking up Salsify in my reference books. 2002 copyright Seed to Seed says it is at risk of crossing to wild/feral Tragopogon porrifolius as welp as other varieties but flowers may also self. It also says that seed savers exchange members used to regularly offer 12 varieties and commercial sources 47 varieties.
I have found ~4 perhaps 5 if you include unnamed.
Wonder what the deal is with that decline? Decline in name only? The USDA only has mammoth sandwich island in the ARS-GRIN system. They have some tendency to genetically test and make decisions from that basis.
One way to proceed with a breeding project might be very large population size. Like burbank and California poppy. From scaling up to very large populations you would be able to find perhaps a few color mutations. Also a few rare interspecies hybrids. Perhaps.
If my goal is an OSSI registered variety my question is how to achieve that. Might be worth doing deliberate crosses between varieties.
I'm sure what I'm growing is wild Tragopogon as the roots are not good form, tend to have one major stem with many side roots off that, the main stem is normally hollow, but its the finger thickness side roots that we eat.
Quote from: Richard Watson on 2021-11-07, 10:21:31 AM
I'm sure what I'm growing is wild Tragopogon as the roots are not good form, tend to have one major stem with many side roots off that, the main stem is normally hollow, but its the finger thickness side roots that we eat.
Did you collect it originally from a wild population? Have you grown any other varieties of it?
Quote from: Joseph Lofthouse on 2019-03-01, 07:02:12 AM
In the wildlands around here, salsify with yellow flowers, and salsify with purple flowers grow in the same patches. For whatever that's worth....
It is very interesting! Here we never used to have the purple until a few years back I started seeing it in the town 15 miles north. Though busy the last two years I've been interested and haven't seen it.
In theory if I ever have time I could also track down populations from herbarium records. It would be nice to have seed of at least one wild population of the Tragopogon porrifolius with the purple flowers for the grex and for comparison with known varieties.
Also I have not yet noticed any volunteers from my purple patch but the yellow Tragopogon dubious volunteers into the purple patch. The pappus is brown and the seeds don't seem to disperse as well on the domestic T. Porrifolius.
Salsify Questions I am accumulating:
What are the differences between varieties?
How does domestic Tragopogon porrifolius differ from wild?
How much variation within varieties?
Has mammoth sandwich island accumulated variation between sellers?
Is luthy described as a historic land race more variable?
Why aren't their different colored flowers and roots within T. porrifolius?
How much variation is there at the genetic level?
Is there a basis in variation for a breeding project?
What was the deal when Seed to Seed was published with # of varieties 12 through SSE 47 commercial vs. Now?
What is the outcrossing rate?
Are there any ornamental flower selections?
Quote from: William S. on 2021-11-07, 12:48:41 PM
Did you collect it originally from a wild population? Have you grown any other varieties of it?
Had it for so long that I cant remember where the seed came from. No that's the only one Ive grower
Towards some answers I've sent off for some fresh seed of three "varieties". Though I also corresponded with someone whos opinion I respect who essentially said there may not be any real variation in them.
If so, that is fine, but it could leave limited options for any sort of breeding program.
Still, I have questions!
One very simple mind experiment I have is about white flowers.
Echinacea purpurea is a purple aster. It was once pretty uniformly purple.. It now comes in white and double and all sorts of variations.
How was that achieved?
Is the same possible for Tragopogon porrifolius?
That's more on the level of ornamental variation. Still. Questions !
I planted some Salsify from new and saved seed recently. Probably not great timing, but we will see.
The old patch which seems to reseed itself is blooming. I planted Mammoth Sandwich Island and Fiore Blu there originally. There is also wild Tragopogon dubius salsify quite commonly. Well I noticed the blooms seemingly on a couple plants were light purple and many dark purple. So my question is do Mammoth Sandwich Island and Fiore Blue have different colored flowers, were some of the flowers simply different ages, or could their be hybridization between garden salsify and the wild yellow salsify or the two varieties of garden salsify which generated the variation. So I guess my next step is to just continue to observe and see if I can find out if the variation is real or not and maybe deduce where it came from.
I might go look at a few salsify pictures on Google.
https://www.adaptiveseeds.com/product/highlighted-varieties/market-farm-varieties/salsify-fiore-blu-organic/
Photo of Fiore Blu on adaptive seeds looks a bit light purple to me.
https://www.resilientseeds.com/store/p157/Salsify_-_Fiore_Blu_%28Certified_Organic%29.html
On resilient seeds Fiore Blu looks a bit dark purple to me.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Tragopogon-triangle-with-the-flowers-of-the-diploid-Tragopogon-species-at-the-apices-of_fig1_23307730
On this figure on researchgate it looks like a interspecies hybrid can result in a lighter purple flower and apparently double the chromosome count. The hybrids aren't known as a vegetable crop so maybe it doesn't result in larger roots though? No idea if this is what has happened or how common it is for this hybrid to crop up.
Hmm, not sure, will have to examine the plants again. Maybe take some photographs. Look for signs of hybridization and such.
Edit: examined the plants again. There is variation in flower color and as near I could tell in a light rain flower color only. Nothing definitive.