https://www.facebook.com/groups/807438750513630
I started a Facebook group today to try to find nearby seed savers who might want to participate in a local Montana centric tomato breeding effort.
https://permies.com/t/204458/Montana-Tomato-Breeding-Project#1697968
Also posted a note to permies.com Missoula forum to look for any interested parties there.
https://citsci.org/projects/montana-tomato-project/
Would be happy to discuss here as well.
So, one of my favorite ways of doing tomato breeding is to use potato leaf tomatoes with a stigma (female part) of the flower that sticks out a bit. These are more likely to naturally be outcrossed, and I made my first cross this way back in 2017 using a potato leaf mother I got from a tomato mixture that Joseph Lofthouse made. Of the potato leaf tomatoes it had the stigma sticking out a bit more than any of the others in 2017. Though potato leaf tomatoes are famous for sometimes doing this. In 2021 I used the potato leaf descendant of the 2017 cross now named Mission Mountain Sunrise to make a new cross with Big Hill or HX-9 an Open-Source Seed Initiative pledged regular leaf tomato bred by Joseph Lofthouse. I grew that cross out over the winter and got some F2 seed which I planted in the spring and from which I sorted out all the potato leaf plants. I then used those F2 plants which I began calling Mission Mountain Morning to make up the mother portion of some crossing blocks. I didn't have quite enough, and it turned out that Mission Mountain Sunrise had worked well as mothers in 2021 so I substituted in some of them as well especially on crossing blocks where the other parent was of OSSI descent as well. Though it does turn out that Mission Mountain Sunrise is more dependent on hot weather for the stigma to stick out of the anther cone than is Big Hill. Hopefully Mission Mountain Morning will be less weather dependent.
I made a larger than normal number of deliberate hand crosses in 2022 but what I want to talk about here is the crossing block crosses! The crossing block crosses aren't emasculated, and they may or may not have happened. Though they are likely to generate several Mission Mountain Sunrise F6 and Mission Mountain Morning F3 seedlings as well. In fact- it will be the only way to get such seedlings! The regular leaf seedlings will be F1 hybrids, and the potato leaf seedlings will be selfed.
11? MMS x Dwarf Mocha's Cherry
This cross number 11 if it indeed happened is between Mission Mountain Sunrise and Dwarf Mocha's Cherry an OSSI registered anthocyanin skinned dwarf. Any offspring of this cross would-be regular leaf with any selfed seedlings being potato leaved and therefore easy to pick out (and hopefully those will find a good home). This would be a great way to get dwarfism and anthocyanin better fixed into a dwarf tomato.
12? MMS x OSSI Dwarfs
A similar cross to number 11 but with any of several OSSI dwarf varieties though I think the seeds I picked were from a plant right next to Dwarf Kelley's Green which was one of my absolute favorite flavors. No anthocyanin on the dwarf side though.
13? MMM x The One (Fruity promiscuous)
The One is a fruity promiscuous project strain. Its heritage is something like 12.5% Solanum habrochaites, 12.5% Solanum penellii, and 75% domestic. Its 2021 parent was a dwarf resulting from the wild cross with truly amazing fruity flavor. In 2022 I didn't taste a bad one, but they varied from almost as good as the 2021 parent to normal tomato taste. Any regular leaf plant from this crossing block is a cross with it. So, it could be a truly amazing tomato- or normal. Still getting 12.5% wild genetics is probably a good deal for tomato diversity.
14? MMM x Unknown (Diversity Garden)
This is a wild card. The Mission Mountain Morning mother had some of the longest stigmas of the entire F2 population. So bound to have picked up some pollen. The mother was in a tightly woven row with lots and lots of tomato varieties. So, it's possible that every regular leaf seedling from this tomato could have a different father. Or they could mostly be from whatever was closest!
15? MMM x LA1410 Galapagense
I really wanted to cross MMM and LA1410 Solanum galapagense in 2022. I did manage to make a deliberate cross with a hybrid that turned up. However, I think the 50:50 parentage F1 might just be in this seed lot waiting for us to recognize the regular leaf seedling! Should be interesting to find out. I can't wait.
Hi William,
Thanks for the synopsis of your Block Crossing protocol. You've mentioned MMM and MMS a few times since I've joined the Forum, but I'd never really grasped it.
I do like the 'dreaming' aspect of this time of year. .... Trying to plan for the PERFECT season!
Here's hoping!!
Tim DH
Future Desired Crosses in 2023 and beyond
Here is a list of domestic tomatoes I still want to make crosses with. Not to mention wild species of tomatoes and half sibling crosses I also will want to make. What tomatoes do you want to cross together?
Exserted Tiger
This is a tomato cross I made in 2017 it is Blue Ambrosia x Amurski Tigr and was an open cross without emasculation, so I didn't know it worked until 2019 when stripes showed up in the F2. As a cross it has blue skin, stripes, and a stigma that sticks out a good bit. It isn't completely stable yet, but I would like to cross it with Mission Mountain Morning. Blue Ambrosia is bred by Lee Goodwin and is part of his Ambrosia series where he followed the strange foliage smell of Sungold F1 down through generations of segregation and outcrosses to try to keep its unique flavor. Amurski Tigr is a short season striped red of Russian or Soviet origin which I picked up originally as a seedling in 2016 from the tomato lady at the Missoula Farmer's Market.
Exserted Orange
This is my line of a collaborative cross with Big Hill HX-9 made in the garden of a fellow named Malcolm then grown in the F1 by Joseph. I grew out the F2 and selected it for the one with the stigma that stuck out the most. Then grew out the F3 and F4 isolated. I would like to cross it with Mission Mountain Morning to get the orange color but with the blue and the potato leaves of Mission Mountain Morning.
Blue Golden Tresette
This is a cross with interesting shapes I found in a packet of Alan Kapuler's Golden Tresette. I noticed one plant with a slight blue blush. Turned out to be an F1 and the F2 segregated wildly into some very nice looking chile shaped tomatoes. Unfortunately, the flavor can be off putting. Golden Tresette is interesting because it is one of Alan's tomatoes that sometimes outcross, and this would be an example. I would like to cross it with Mission Mountain Morning to see if I can get some interesting shapes without the odd flavor. Golden Tresette is interesting because Alan claimed it might be a three species cross.
Coyote
Coyote also known as White Currant is a standout small, fruited tomato with Mexican origins. It has good/interesting flavor and is early. I have been meaning to make a cross with it for a long time.
Dwarf Eagle Smiley
One of my favorites from the OSSI dwarf tomato project. I think it has good flavor. So, a good candidate for crossing with Mission Mountain Morning.
Muddy Waters
The fanciest looking of the three best flavored green when ripe tomatoes I grew in 2022. It has stripes, anthocyanin, and great flavor. So, I want to cross it with Mission Mountain Morning.
Amethyst Cream
A white tomato that is also blue bred by Brad Gate's it has been a garden favorite now for a long time. It is fancy with its Anthocyanin blue blush over such pale fruit, and it has great flavor. I would like it crossed with Mission Mountain Morning.
Fuzzy
A Tim Peters interspecies cross maintained and sent to me by a fellow amateur tomato breeder who would like me to cross it with Tim's "Fruity" strain. I would also like to cross it with Mission Mountain Morning.
Fruity
A Tim Peters interspecies cross maintained and sent to me by a fellow amateur tomato breeder who would like me to cross it with Tim's "Fuzzy" strain. I would also like to cross it with Mission Mountain Morning.
Glacier
A local favorite tomato that has long done well here in Western Montana. I would like to cross it into the project just for that reason.
Yellow Pear
Back in the 1980s yellow pear tomatoes were probably the fanciest tomato we grew. I like that shape and want to cross it into something else.
Stupice
A local favorite tomato that has long done well here in Western Montana. I would like to cross it into the project just for that reason.
Flamenco
A heat tolerant tomato bred from Silvery Fir Tree which is a short season tomato and with the carrot leaves of that parent. I want to cross this in because heat tolerance is getting more important with climate change.
Bison
A North Dakota bred tomato with the name of my favorite animal.
Payette
An early modern Idaho bred tomato which happens to be dwarf and resistant to Curly Top virus spread by leaf hoppers. It has some very dilute wild ancestry.
Tomatoes I have successfully crossed into the Montana Tomato Project So Far:
1. Unknown Lofthouse Potato Leaf. I noticed the stigma stuck out a bit on this one plant from Joseph Lofthouse's seed mix in 2017. So I daubed pollen on it.
2. Blue Gold a blue blushed yellow/red marbled bicolor bred by Brad Gates of Wild Boar Farm in California.
3. Blue Ambrosia a tomato bred by Lee Goodwin in New Mexico. He dehybridized Sungold F1 and then crossed that with a blue skinned tomato he bred from Oregon State University developed material related to their 2012 blue skinned tomato release. The strain I received had stigmas that stuck out a long way on 4 out of 5 plants.
4. Amurski Tigr a tomato I bought from the tomato lady at Missoula's Clark Fork Market in 2016. It is short season, red, indeterminate, and striped.
5. Solanum pimpinellifolium accession PI 270443 because it is reportedly known to have a trait called PH5 for late blight resistance.
6. Solanum pimpinillifolium accession PI 365967 because it reportedly has resistance to a new tomato disease called the brown rugose fruit virus.
7. Sweet Cherriette a currant tomato bred by Tim Peters that ripens in just 35 days from transplant IF a nicely grown large eight week old seedling is outplanted.
8. Aztek a micro dwarf yellow fruited tomato I bought from Bunny Hop seeds. I've been told by other breeders that crosses with it produce both regular and micro dwarfs.
9. Big Hill HX-9 a OSSI pledged regular leaf determinate yellow and red marbled bicolor. It is bred from a Hillbilly x Jagodka cross. It has stigmas that stick out nicely seemingly independent of the weather here.
10. Solanum habrochaites LA2329. This is an extremely unpalatable green when ripe wild species tomato with extremely hairy foliage and fruit. It is known for arthropod resistance.
11. Promiscuous project tomatoes are bred by Joseph Lofthouse. They are complex hybrids between domestic tomatoes, Solanum habrochaites, and Solanum penellii with about 75% domestic and 25% wild genetics selected over several generations for good flavor. Though still variable in that regard.
12. Solanum galapagense hybrid- this was a hybrid between Solanum galapagense and domestic tomato that showed up in my 2022 garden. I managed to make a cross with it and Mission Mountain Morning. I am not sure if the original cross happened in my 2022 garden or maybe at Heirloom Reviews seeds garden.
13. Brad's Atomic Grape- this is a green/red bicolor with stripes and blue blush bred by Brad Gates
14. Purple Zebra F1 this is a hybrid with multiple disease resistance including PH2 and PH3 late blight resistance bred by the Artisan Seeds group including Mark Mccasslin. More interestingly it is supposed to also have heirloom flavor and that seems to be true. Purple in this sense is in the Cherokee Purple type of purple.
15. Dwarf Gloria's Treat this is a yellow and red bicolor from the Dwarf Tomato project pledged to OSSI and with excellent flavor.
https://snakeriverseeds.com/products/tomato-mission-mountain-sunrise?_pos=4&_sid=393a2c86a&_ss=r
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-01-11, 07:09:37 PMhttps://snakeriverseeds.com/products/tomato-mission-mountain-sunrise?_pos=4&_sid=393a2c86a&_ss=r
They look lovely!
I got some tips recently that there is a Fisher's Earliest Paste tomato from Fisher's seeds in Belgrade Montana in existence and a Wyoming tomato called Wilford. I ordered a packet of Wilford and I got an email back from someone who has the tomato from Belgrade Montana. Kind of exciting. Montana is both surrounded by states and provinces with unique tomatoes and may have one of its own.
Hmm and just as I said this I found two more: McClintock and High Country. Both with Montana roots.
2023 Tomatoes to Plant
Amethyst Cream
Anmore Dewdrop 2018 from BC
Payette from Idaho
Golden Bison North Dakota
Cheesemanii Hybrid from Terrior Seeds original packet from Andrew
Coyote
exserted orange stock seed
Exserted red tiger with best blue for stock seed 2020
Forest Fire 2017
Subartic plenty original packet from Alberta
Yellow Tiger 2020 Volunteer NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION
Black Cherry
Galahad F1
Wagner Muddy Waters
Dwarf Eagle Smiley
Mission Mountain Morning F3
LA2329
LA1410
MMM X LA2329
MMM X galapagense x Unknown
Galapagense x Unknown
MMM X galapagense
BH X LA2329
Promiscuous x LA2329
MMM X(Promiscuous X LA2329)
Mission Mountain Rising F2!
MMS X Dwarf Mix if worked
MMS x Dwarf was blue
MMM X The one! If worked
MMM X Sweet Cherriette = Mission Mountain Early F2!
MMM X Unknowns
MMM X Brad's Atomic Grape
MMM x Brown Rugose tolerant current
MMM x Late blight resistant current PH5
MMM X Purple Zebra
Dwarf Gloria's Treat x currents
Farthest North which is Bison X current from North Dakota
Dwarf Moby's Cherry
Spoon?
Uluru Ochre
Mingold?
Azoychka?
Utah Heart
Child of Utah Heart
Small Fruit Mix
Mr Stripy
Hoosier Rose
Fruity
Fuzzy
Fisher's Earliest Paste a Montanan
McClintock a Montanan
Wilford from Wyoming
2023 Crossing Blocks Draft
1. Arthropod Resistance New Fenced Garden
LA2329 and LA1410 and descendants
MMM x The One if it worked
2. Disease Resistance Ronan House again
a. Brown Rugose Virus MMM x Pimp
b. Late Blight MMM x Pimp, MMM x Purple Zebra F1
c. Galahad F1
d. Reed's five tomatoes
e. MMM F3
3. New Domestic Crosses MMS and MMM X domestics including Aztek, Brad's Atomic Grape, Sweet Cherriette, OSSI Dwarfs Old Fenced Garden
4. MMM F3 x Fruity Missoula Deck
5. MMM F3 x Fuzzy West Central garden
6. MMM F3 x Exserted Orange NW Garden
7. MMM F3 x Yellow Tiger NE garden
8. MMM F3 x Payette SW garden
May need to shuffle this around a bit. Ideally I would make more crosses than ever before in a single year while growing more of my crosses out to the exciting F2!
Triple Divide Seeds has Mandarin Mini Cherry Tomato. A Montana original dating back 25 years to Garden City Seeds.
Mission Mountain Sunrise looks great, William. Kudos for getting the seeds out there.
Quote from: Steph S on 2023-02-14, 10:08:11 AMMission Mountain Sunrise looks great, William. Kudos for getting the seeds out there.
It isn't stable yet.
It also has F1 and F2 grandchildren and children I plan to grow out in 2023:
MMM X LA2329 if worked
MMM X (galapagense x Unknown)
MMM X galapagense LA1410 if worked
MMM X (Promiscuous X LA2329)
MMM x Aztek = Mission Mountain Rising F2!
MMS X Dwarf Mix if worked
MMS x Dwarf Mocha's if worked
MMM X The one! If worked
MMM X Sweet Cherriette = Mission Mountain Early F2!
MMM X Unknowns if worked
MMM X Brad's Atomic Grape
MMM x Brown Rugose tolerant current
MMM x Late blight resistant current PH5
MMM X Purple Zebra
I have a small result. I planted 10 cells with a Mission Mountain Morning so F3 generation. The F2 grew in the diversity garden with many varieties and had perhaps the best stigma exsertion of the generation. Of 13 seedlings one is an obvious regular leaf F1 hybrid with an unknown father. Twelve are MMM F3. So 1/13 outcross rate.
I can't wait to plant seed from more deliberate crossing blocks where the father will be known.
In January I replanted some of the MMR seeds you sent me. This planting had 3 dwarfs, all regular leaf. Yesterday I saw the first flower and buzzed it. Like my plants of The One! I want to get as much seed from them as possible.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-03-16, 06:33:18 AMI have a small result. I planted 10 cells with a Mission Mountain Morning so F3 generation. The F2 grew in the diversity garden with many varieties and had perhaps the best stigma exsertion of the generation. Of 13 seedlings one is an obvious regular leaf F1 hybrid with an unknown father. Twelve are MMM F3. So 1/13 outcross rate.
I can't wait to plant seed from more deliberate crossing blocks where the father will be known.
It bumped up to 2/13 regular leaf then I gave the whole flat away at the seed swap.
https://www.seedstrust.com/tomatoes/tomato-early-prairie-fire
Ken Fisher used to sell three tomatoes that I just got today from a seed saver. Prairie Fire, Fisher's Earliest Paste, and Mountain Boy.
Trying to find more info.
lucky you, to get Fisher varieties.
Definitely Fisher's work is an important part of Montana's gardening heritage. I don't know that much. Would like to get my hands on an old catalogue and a few other things of his. I think his corn is likely a part of my sweet corn grex from way back.
I planted some tomato seeds!
Planted 2023 Tomatoes to Plant 4_2_23 update
1. Amethyst Cream
Y 2. Anmore Dewdrop 2018 from BC*
Y 3. Payette from Idaho*
Y 4. Sandpoint from Idaho*
Y 5. Golden Bison North Dakota*
Y 6. Cheesemanii Hybrid from Terrior Seeds*
Y 7. exserted orange stock seed*
Y 8. Exserted red tiger with best blue for stock seed 2020 *
Y 9. Mission Mountain Sunrise (from crossing blocks (at least two packets to plant)
Y 10. Wagner Muddy Waters
Y 11. Dwarf Eagle Smiley*
Y 2/3 12. Mission Mountain Morning F3 (from crossing blocks at least three packets to plant)
? 13. Galapagos Island Tomato #2
? 14. Galapagos Island Tomato type 3
? 15. Galapagos Wild Tomato Hairy Strain (Minor) Type 1
Y 16. LA0428 & LA0429
Y 17. LA1404 s. Cheesemaniae
Y 18. LA2329 habrochaites
Y 19. LA1410 galapagense
Y 20. MMM X LA2329
Y 21. MMM X (galapagense x Unknown)
22. Galapagense x Unknown (Can direct seed)
Y 23. MMM X galapagense (crossing block with LA1410)
Y 24. BH X LA2329- one sprouted
Y 25. Promiscuous x LA2329 – F2 sprouted
Y 26. MMM X(Promiscuous X LA2329) - sprouted
Y 27. Mission Mountain Rising F2!
Y 28. MMS X Dwarf Mix if worked
Y 29. MMS x Dwarf Mocha's Cherry
Y 30. MMM X The one! If worked
Y 31. MMM X Sweet Cherriette = Mission Mountain Early F2!
32. MMM X Unknowns
Y 33. MMM X Brad's Atomic Grape
Y 34. MMM x Brown Rugose tolerant current
Y 35. MMM x Late blight resistant current PH5
Y 36. MMM X Purple Zebra
Y 37. Dwarf Gloria's Treat x currents
Y 38. Farthest North which is Bison X current from North Dakota*
Y 39. Spoon?*
Y 40. Uluru Ochre*
Y 41. Utah Heart*
Y 42. Mr. Stripy*
Y 43. Hoosier Rose*
Y 44. Fruity*
Y 45. Fuzzy*
Y 46. McClintock a Montanan*
Y 47. Wilford from Wyoming*
Y 48. Mandarin Mini a Montanan*
Y 49. Sunviva OSSI's European Sister*
Y 50. Ida Gold*
Y 51. Flamenco
Y 52. Krainiy Sever
Y 53. Fisher's Earliest Paste a Montanan?*
Y 54. Fisher's Prairie Fire a Montanan?!- corroborated at least once.*
Y 55. Fisher's Mountain Boy a Montanan?*
*= Found
Fun result. I did a deliberate Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x Mission Mountain Sunrise cross. I thought I had maybe one viable seed and some crud. While some of that crud is germinating! I think I spotted at least sixteen seedlings.
Here is a photo of a little 40 cell flat with forty different things in it.
Planted 2023 Tomatoes to Plant 4_9_23 update
y 1. Amethyst Cream
Y 2. Anmore Dewdrop 2018 from BC*
Y 3. Payette from Idaho*
Y 4. Sandpoint from Idaho*
Y 5. Golden Bison North Dakota*
Y 6. Cheesemanii Hybrid from Terrior Seeds*
Y 7. exserted orange stock seed*
Y 8. Exserted red tiger with best blue for stock seed 2020 *
Y 9. Mission Mountain Sunrise (from crossing blocks (at least two packets to plant)
Y 10. Wagner Muddy Waters
Y 11. Dwarf Eagle Smiley*
Y 12. Mission Mountain Morning F3 (from crossing blocks at least three packets to plant)
? 13. Galapagos Island Tomato #2
? 14. Galapagos Island Tomato type 3
? 15. Galapagos Wild Tomato Hairy Strain (Minor) Type 1
Y 16. LA0428 & LA0429
Y 17. LA1404 s. Cheesemaniae
Y 18. LA2329 habrochaites
Y 19. LA1410 galapagense
Y 20. MMM X LA2329
Y 21. MMM X (galapagense x Unknown)
N 22. Galapagense x Unknown (Can direct seed)
Y 23. MMM X galapagense (crossing block with LA1410)
Y 24. BH X LA2329- one sprouted
Y 25. Promiscuous x LA2329 – F2 sprouted
Y 26. MMM X(Promiscuous X LA2329) - sprouted
Y 27. Mission Mountain Rising F2!
Y 28. MMS X Dwarf Mix if worked
Y 29. MMS x Dwarf Mocha's Cherry
Y 30. MMM X The one! If worked
Y 31. MMM X Sweet Cherriette = Mission Mountain Early F2!
Y 32. MMM X Unknowns
Y 33. MMM X Brad's Atomic Grape
Y 34. MMM x Brown Rugose tolerant current
Y 35. MMM x Late blight resistant current PH5
Y 36. MMM X Purple Zebra
Y 37. Dwarf Gloria's Treat x currents
Y 38. Farthest North which is Bison X current from North Dakota*
Y 39. Spoon?*
Y 40. Uluru Ochre*
Y 41. Utah Heart*
Y 42. Mr. Stripy*
Y 43. Hoosier Rose*
Y 44. Fruity*
Y 45. Fuzzy*
Y 46. McClintock a Montanan*
Y 47. Wilford from Wyoming*
Y 48. Mandarin Mini a Montanan*
Y 49. Sunviva OSSI's European Sister*
Y 50. Ida Gold*
Y 51. Flamenco
Y 52. Krainiy Sever
Y 53. Fisher's Earliest Paste a Montanan?*
Y 54. Fisher's Prairie Fire a Montanan?!- corroborated at least once.*
Y 55. Fisher's Mountain Boy a Montanan?*
Y 56 Coyote / White Current
*= Found but I found these all now except for the three ? islanders that I need to check on.
Nice ! Have you acquired fruity and fuzzy from a member of this board or is there a commercial source ?
I'll be growing Tim's taste of paradise and can't wait to taste it !
A fellow plant breeder sent Fruity and Fuzzy to me and asked me to cross them! Which I shall be attempting!
This is fun the (MMM F1 x Aztek) has height segregation and curved leaves on some seedlings.
I will watch for segregation on my MMM x Aztek. I'm only growing a few plants, but you never know.
I will also be interested to see if I get noticeable segregation on my Sungold F2, which were only taken from one or two F1 plants.
I am doing small batches too. It was cool to pick out the dwarfs. This time I got 3. One is sort of Jagodka sized and has 5 tomatoes on it at about 10 weeks old. Another has one tomato and the third is much smaller and hasn't flowered yet.
Is there an ideal time to sort the seedlings for micro, dwarf, non dwarf?
I have seeds of furry tomatoes from Croatia. I bought them to see if deer would not eat them.
They call them "wooly" and sell 21 kinds.
https://croatianseeds-store.com/index.php/croatian-seeds-store/65/tomatoes/wooly-tomatoes/results,1-0
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qI9UsRAOjIc&t=324s
I think in the dwarf tomato project they could select dwarfs at this stage I am at. Weed out the tall ones. Micro dwarfs would show a little later.
Though that curled leaf trait could be a tell?!
Are these Fuzzy, Furry, and Wooly tomatoes specifically bred by Tim?
Are these the same as "peach" or "peachy" tomatoes that have hairy fruits?
The particular strain of fuzzy I was sent was bred by Tim Peters. I think from wild genes. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more advanced furry varietied started with something like Tim's fuzzy and got more palatable versions but some of them may be mutants. The proliferation is likely because it is a novel trait though. It may have some implications for defense against arthropods, wind, and sun for examples.
Well the "peach" types have been around for ages. I grew a few many years ago and wasn't that impressed. Might have been from wild genes, but might have been an odd mutation.
But I would be interested in tracking all these newer varieties down and comparing them. Could be interesting to keep breeding with these traits. I haven't tried many of these types nor the Tim Peter's strains. I think they have fruity flavors, but sugar could be improved and maybe size. Maybe a lot of things could be improved.
https://fedcoseeds.com/seeds/garden-peach-slicing-tomato-4044
https://www.rareseeds.com/tomato-orange-peach
Nice. My seedlings are 3wks now and getting the true leaves. Dwarf project ones are shorter but there is variation. I'll have to check closer.
To relate back to the OP, I think my seedlings of "The One, isolation block" are as tall as the big hill and various indeterminate varieties I'm growing.
I think there is a significant body of research dating back decades ago till today on the Woolly (Wo) gene and other tomato trichome mutants and forms. The original Wo was lethal in homozygote form but there is also the Wo:m allel that is viable. Another similar gene is Lanata (Ln).
LA1663 seems to be a Wo:m+Ln double mutant:
https://solgenomics.net/locus/775/view (https://solgenomics.net/locus/775/view)
One of the reasons I have avoided the fuzzy domestics is uncertainty about their origins. Plus having fuzzy wild tomatoes- I have wanted future fuzzies to get the trait from the wild parents. I am getting closer with galapagense and habrochaites crosses. Though could not say no to a Tim Peters fuzzy.
It is the furry leaves I am interested in, to deter deer.
Tom Wagner of Everett, Washington, bred a number of them: Woolly Blue Jay, Woolly Kate, Woolly Kate Yellow, Yamali Blue
Tatiana shows a lot of photos of the furry leaves of Woolly Blue Jay:
https://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Woolly_Blue_Jay
Brad Gates of Wild Boar Farm also bred some of them.
I am on the edge of getting some interesting and long-awaited results from my crossing blocks. I know that the first seeding from the best plant I found in the diversity crossing block produced two crosses in thirteen. I gave all those seedlings away at the seed swap because they were too big! Though now I think I could have put them in the greenhouse where tomato seeds are already germinating- soon hopefully including the next planting from that block.
True leaves are coming out on the seedlings from the best exserted Mission Mountain Morning plant in The One crossing block. So far I don't see any crosses- but it is still early and even one would be very exciting! The One seems to have some fertility issues perhaps including poor pollen production . I do have an enormous amount of mixed seed from the block that in a pinch I could simply direct seed back into the block. That would of course include the potential for the reverse cross.
I am no longer worried about the Mission Mountain Sunrise x Dwarf Mocha's cherry crossing block as I seemingly successfully made and germinated the reverse cross. However, it will be interesting to see how many seedlings there are.
There is also Mission Mountain Sunrise x Mixed regular leaf dwarf seed from a plant next to a Dwarf Kelly Green. Also will be fun if any crosses show up.
Then there is seed from Mission Mountain Morning (MMM F2) potato leaf plants with exsertion, blue, and potato leaf from the block with LA1410 Galapagense. Though notably there was also the galapagense hybrid and the Solanum habrochaites LA2329 experiment in that garden- just further away. Though it is MMMF2 x LA1410 I am most interested in from this. I do have a hand cross between the galapagense hybrid and MMMF2 which should be fun being only 1/4 galapagense. Given the extreme size difference between LA1410 flowers and regular tomato flowers I am not entirely certain that pollinators effectively transfer the pollen between the two. So we will perhaps find out soon!
How are your MMM x Aztek lines doing? What are your goals for that cross?
I think my ultimate goal for the MMM x Aztek cross would be a potato leaf dwarf with exsertion, bicolor flesh, and potato leaf. I have a little section of it and it is segregating nicely already for height but that is not the final plan as this is a numbers game. Therefore I plan to direct seed the very large amount of seed I saved and then thin it robustly for potato leaf dwarfs. Though there are complications. It was made with MMM F1 not F2 so it's possible potato leaf will be rare. We will find out. Definitely something though for which I'll be looking for the very favorite plant of to carry forward to 2024 and that might end up being my new crossing block mother in 2024.
However, if selection falls short then it will likely get back crossed or sibling crossed in 2024 if not before. I could see crossing a dwarf from it back to MMM F3 to get potato leaves. Or crossing it to any of my other new dwarf crosses perhaps when they hit the the F2 in 2024. I could also see potentially crossing it to Dwarf Gloria's treat as that DTP line has potato leaves and bicolor fruit with superior flavor. Partly depends on which traits it does get.
The true leaves are rapidly emerging from my crossing blocks and- it looks like the vast majority, perhaps all of them are potato leaved. Both Mission Mountain Morning and Mission Mountain Sunrise.
So far the only exception was the awesome exserted MMM plant from the diversity crossing block.
LA1410 and The One are not abundant pollen producers!
Good thing I made so many hand crosses in 2022.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-04-17, 09:27:20 PMLA1410 and The One are not abundant pollen producers!
Are heavy pollen producers something we should be selecting for? I remember Joseph saying that when he was breeding Big Hill and he was talking about Jogodka and another tomato in his garden producing more than all the others combined because they had plumes of pollen and were attracting the bumblebees.
It is funny because Solanum habrochaites is a tremendous pollen producer but many hybrids with it end up with reproductive problems.
Possibly, if you want a natural cross to flow in a particular direction both parents reproductive capabilities are important.
It is also interesting to me that I could plant a few hundred or a few thousand Solanum galapagense LA1410 seeds and any hybrids will stand out like a sore thumb. I don't particularly have space or time right now though! The same is true of The One! If I plant enough seeds I may find a reverse cross there. I should plant some soon if I want any. I also had one plant with better seed production. I didn't save it separately but I do know which seed packet it is in.
Though ultimately high pollen production vs low is all about reproductive fitness in particular environments with particular pollinator complexes. Also plant reproductive strategy may matter. In some cases the answer seems to be that not much is needed and in others that a great deal is needed.
Looks like I have about 5 plants from the MMM x Aztek cross you sent me, William, but none of them appear to be potato-leaved. Of course, 5 is a small sample from which to select.
Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-04-18, 06:48:11 AMLooks like I have about 5 plants from the MMM x Aztek cross you sent me, William, but none of them appear to be potato-leaved. Of course, 5 is a small sample from which to select.
I have maybe 100 or so and I don't see a potato leaf. I have the ability to potentially direct seed a few thousand but it might be easier to just do a half sibling cross.
The MMM x Sweet Cherriette cross F2 has some potato leaf recovery. I could half sib cross those to regular leaf MMM x Aztek dwarfs.
Looking at my MMR seedlings from you. A couple are much shorter and just now getting true leaves coming through.
They all look regular leaf? The dwarf Gloria's treat is potato leaf and the first true leaves are almond shaped so I was comparing to them.
There is XL Red to the right of them and 42 days to the left of them in the picture. The odd one out of the red box is a dwarf oriole that was moved.
William, of my first three plants of The One! One was about a month earlier than the rest and produced 40 +/- seeds. The tomatoes are ripening from the other plants and they seem to produce little seed. I've kept the seeds from the first plant separate.
Kadence,
Yep the ones with big enough true leaves to tell seem to be regular leaf and that seems to be consistent across the board with that cross. Hmm back cross necessary!
Randy, yep, saving seed from better seed producers separate may help to get that line to something we can more easily share abundant seed of. Also could be a sign of a plant with better pollen production.
I gave away four clam shells of crossing block Mission Mountain Sunrise and Mission Mountain Morning yesterday to my colleagues who volunteer at Seedlings of Solidarity. Did not see a single regular leaf cross in them. Four different crossing blocks. Hundreds of seedlings. Kind of sad. My takeaway is that if you want natural hybridization, the father's reproductive traits matter too. Pollen production, some similarity between the intended crossed blossoms. Similar flower size may be necessary, so bee species treat the two varieties as a single pollen source with the same foraging behavior and bombus species. I've observed individual bumble bees being perhaps a little too faithful to a single tomato species. Also, distance between plants. Mission Mountain Morning was not fully developed to its potential as a crossing block mother yet as usually only a few in the F2 have extreme exsertion of the stigma. The one exception is the plant with extreme exsertion of the stigma in the diversity garden. It proved itself as a crossing block mother but multiple potential fathers were nearby and the plants very close together. It is a good thing I made the most manual crosses ever in 2022. It does give me pause as to how useful selecting for stigma exsertion is if setting up crossing blocks is not effective.
One possible exception to this could be when both potential parents have the exserted stigmas. So Mission Mountain Morning F3 X Exserted Tiger and Mission Mountain F3 x Exserted Orange might still be reasonable crossing block experiments.
This raises the possibility that it might be more useful to use my isolation gardens for isolation than for crossing blocks.
Also, I think I need to plant some of "The One" as I have apparently failed to make a cross with it in 2022. Though it may yet prove to have been a good mother parent of a cross! It appears to be a poor father.
Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x Mission Mountain Sunrise has tiny seedlings from tiny seeds. I planted other lines in the same clamshell and they are huge by comparison. My curiosity is high as to if this means I have combined genes for small size from two sources. Possible future micro dwarf?
William, are the father plants in your crossing blocks abundant pollen producers?
I wonder if the exserted stigmas only solve half the problem. Even if both plants of the desired natural cross have this trait, it may not be sufficient if both varieties have limited pollen production, closed or mostly closed anthers, or produce few flowers that only provide pollen a short time.
I am planning to breed both (mostly) pure strains of existing varieties and crosses of the most promising domestic varieties with pollen from the wildling strains, but probably won't make much effort to cross domestics with other domestics.
I would say that in the failed blocks a large portion of the problem is the poor pollen production of the intended fathers.
Also potentially bee behavior in part, bees seem to have plant species fidelity behavior.
One intended father was LA1410 Solanum galapagense it has tiny flowers.
Another was The One it seems to have some reproductive problems still left over from the interspecies crosses.
Would it be better to use the tiny-flowered one as the female, then?
A lovely flat of a few thousand seeds of LA1410 Solanum galapagense might be informative of that!!
There are so many issues with tomato pollen. For one thing it takes a long time to mature. I think 9 days is the shortest time that I've observed from open flower to self pollination, but 14 is about average and 24 days or even longer in colder weather, iirc as much as 30 days to make a pea sized set. Afaik all the pollen doesn't necessarily mature at the same rate either, and thus you get shedding for a period of several days. Then there is pollen death if the temperature goes over 95F, and pollen clumping if the weather is damp. The nice thing about using pollinators to do the job, they seem to know exactly when the flower is ready, and get everything they can from a single visit. They never visit the same flower twice here. That is with bumblebees, which don't have 'species loyalty' as honeybees do.
I wonder if 'sweat bees' would help as a pollinator. The halictid bees are so much smaller, and I'm told they have a great affinity for tomatoes. So they seem like an ideal partner for the wild type with tiny flowers - although small size flower never stopped a bumblebee from feasting on wild thyme and ignoring the roses.
Edited to add: breakfast reading about the genetics of exserted stigmas, it seems that this trait is associated with a male sterility gene ms10 which was used for hybrid production in the 90's. So if the source of exsertion is from dehybridized material you may have some male sterile segregates showing exsertion, and if so, best advised to only use the exserted as the mother plants as the plants with maximum exsertion could be pollen sterile.
https://www.nature.com/articles/hdy1994100.pdf
I see a exciting F2 of MMM x Sweet Cherriette. I already pulled out some potato leaved seedlings and this is a regular leaf. The neat thing is just that it is out competing its siblings. Huge little plant.
One of the things I want from the cross is extreme earliness. So maybe, this extremely vigorous seedling might have that?
Why do u pull out potato leaved seedlings?
Quote from: Roland on 2023-04-29, 08:05:25 AMWhy do u pull out potato leaved seedlings?
In this instance, to transplant!
Made an early planting of a mixed grex. Mission Mountain Morning, MMM x Unknown, Exserted Orange, and Exserted Tiger. Will see if any more frost ensues.
We're probably going to get frost here the next 2 nights, so I will be putting a heavy row cover on the tomatoes already transplanted out.
I am hoping to see differences between varieties in how much their growth is impacted.
Tomato outplanting weekend is disorganized. Tiller already stopped tilling. Family here. All kinds of oopsies.
Planting crossing stock in the backyard.
The backyard is a bit overloaded with crossing stock, but now so is one bed on the garden land. I have more tomatoes for next weekend that are still too small.
I think I got at least one of every 2022 cross I made out planted. Some I got enough planted for the 2023 grow out.
The small row I planted last weekend is now an interesting result. It has been eaten to a remarkable extent by Colorado potato beetles. If it survives, it will have been very stressed. So I extended it and planted some of the arthropod resistant project. Though I hedged my bets in the other potato beetle free garden.
I only have one surviving clump of 2023 LA2329 due to a couple clumps dying in the greenhouse.
I've had the opposite problem. Many of my tomatoes were started quite early and I am struggling to keep them happy inside, but I am still getting frosts, preventing me from transplanting them outside.
This was such long cold winter I anticipated planting later being a possibility. Also just decided to grow six week old starts instead of eight to save space and time. Not everything worked out perfectly but I already have more crossing material planted than I can normally use so it should be a productive year in some ways!
Here is what I have in my greenhouse after planting out and then another round of transplanting. All plants I think need another week to grow before transplanting.
Amongst the seedlings from my Dwarf Gloria's treat x current tomato cross I found some potato leaf seedlings. They are either selfed meaning my emasculation was imperfect or if they don't turn out rugose likely a cross with my Mission Mountain Morning project. Transplanted them this morning. They don't look rugose- yet.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-05-14, 05:00:41 AMThe backyard is a bit overloaded with crossing stock, but now so is one bed on the garden land. I have more tomatoes for next weekend that are still too small.
I think I got at least one of every 2022 cross I made out planted. Some I got enough planted for the 2023 grow out.
The small row I planted last weekend is now an interesting result. It has been eaten to a remarkable extent by Colorado potato beetles. If it survives, it will have been very stressed. So I extended it and planted some of the arthropod resistant project. Though I hedged my bets in the other potato beetle free garden.
Is this a common problem for you with tomatoes and potatoes?
Colorado potato beetles are common in the valley. Of my six isolation gardens they only hang out in this one. It has annual nightshade.
If you could breed a tomato variety with high resistance to potato beetles, that could have real value. Having one bed with consistent high pest pressure could be a good breeding ground.
Given the levels of depredation on the weekend before lasts planting. I expect answers on last weekends planting next weekend. Practically instantaneous by scientific standards.
Wow those potato beetles sure are awful! Glad I don't have those here!
But I think I just found a baby tomato hornworm in my grow tent after back filling the extra tomato plant pots with soil from the raised bed. I had significant tomato hornworm problems last year, even on the non-domestics.
Oh the problems of living near people who grow the same crop year after year without crop rotation.
For me in this house it seems all the old people who grow a tomato plant or two every summer. Surely these tomato hornworm moths are surviving and reproducing in this area somehow. At my parents property they were much more rare, but sometimes would feast on the concord grape vines.
The depredation slowed markedly but is ongoing. The Colorado potato beetles seem to like LA2329 habrochaites just fine damage and eggs. I saw them crawling on LA1410 galapagense but no obvious damage yet. I expect a few of the three week old seedlings to pull through. Also saw a few in the other garden on my tomatoes there. Lots of hungry overwinterers.
I added to that depredated row with some extras. Also planted the other garden.
Did three direct seeded areas two in isolation gardens of Joseph's promiscuous project the one and others. Then one adjacent to the potato beetle depredation from last year's MMM and The One crossing block. Sort of a last ditch effort to find that cross! Though included lots of The One from crossing blocks in the main The One garden.
All I have left is a partial flat of Amethyst Cream to give away mostly and two late planted flats of Joseph's promiscuous project.
I maximally labeled my tomatoes in the backyard and backyard greenhouse for later manual crossing.
Tags and flags with writing on them.
My 2022 Mission Mountain, The One!, little pumpkins crossing block in the sw garden has sent up about a dozen volunteers of both potato leaf and regular leaf tomatoes. So I weeded it and added some seed today.
The row in the newer fenced garden where I direct seeded the same experiment is germinating but it looks like potato beetles are eating them already too!
My other two direct seeded patches each in their own garden are both germinating as well.
Only one of my six gardens now is still empty. I saw no volunteers and there is too much grass in it. Still no rototillers.
I finally have tomato flowers. So just attempted the following crosses in the greenhouse:
Exserted Orange x Anmore Dewdrop
Exserted Tiger x Exserted Orange
Fisher's Prairie Fire x Exserted Orange
Fisher's Mountain Boy x Exserted Orange
Fisher's Earliest Paste x Exserted Orange
(MMM x Aztek F2 not dwarf) x Exserted Orange)
Attempted a seventh cross for the day in the open field. Small diameter stigma but overcast and humid today. I have hopes.
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x PH5 Pimpinillifolium) only one flower of each parent was available.
Would be possible to make some other crosses out in the open field gardens but not sure if any would be exciting. MMM x Sweet Cherriette potato leaved F2 is producing pollen. Mission Mountain Morning F3 has a few flowers that I could emasculate. MMM x Aztek not dwarf has a few flowers and Anmore Dewdrop has a few flowers. None of those possible combinations inspire me much after my attempts this morning. I did see one cheesemanii flower.
Made an eighth cross for the weekend. MMM x (MMM x LB pimp)
I have a lot of admiration for the people who work on microdwarves.. such tiny flowers. The pimpinellifolium I grew also had very small flowers iirc.
Even some cherries and small fruit I've worked with had such a delicate stigma, it was really hard to pollinate without knocking it off, that is, after you managed to emasculate without crushing it.
Steady hands and perfect depth perception (for the pollen application) would be nice.
I usually end up looking for crossing opportunities that are close to eye level, and for that I have to wait until later in the season. Kudos for getting your early crosses in.
Attempted the following crosses today.
MMR non-dwarf x Exserted Orange (a repeat)
Krainy Sever x MMR non-dwarf
MMR dwarf x Farthest North
Fruity x Exserted Orange (inflorescence branch died overnight so failed)
Of last weeks I think 7 of 8 show signs of taking. The exception being Fisher's earliest paste x exserted orange but it may be too early to know for sure on it as well.
I planted some late started transplants and compost volunteers today.
Weeded 20 feet of one of my direct seeded patches. A resurrection of my 2022 Mission Mountain x The One crossing block and also weeded the volunteers in the original patch which I added some of the seed to and that seed is germinating now but the volunteers are bigger.
Noticed that Mandarin Mini a Montana original variety brought back by Triple Divide Seed and originally from garden city seed is modestly exserted.
Forgot my price tags so didn't make any more crosses on the garden land.
My Fruity x Exserted Orange greenhouse cross of yesterday failed overnight the whole small branch of inflorescense dried up.
I made the following cross attempts on the garden land mostly with Mission Mountain Morning F3. as a pollen donor.
1. Bison x MMM
2. (Potato leaf F2 of MMM x Sweet cherriette) x (MMM x rugose)
3. (MMM x brad's atomic grape) x (MMM x rugose resistant pimp)
4. MMM x wilford
5. Siberia x MMM
6. Mandarin Mini x MMM
7. Exserted tiger x MMM
8. Terrior galapagense x MMM
I guess that brings me up to 10 new crosses for the weekend. 17 or so for the season so far with lots of varieties I hope to make crosses with not yet having blooms.
My project this year to nostalgically cross with more regional tomatoes has so far netted some crosses representing Montana, North Dakota, Wyoming, and British Columbia. Still need to make crosses with some Idaho tomatoes like Payette.
I think I could make a lot more crosses between the crosses I made last year but am also wondering if those are crosses I really want to make as it leads to a lot of dilution.
Today's cross attempts
1. Yellow tiger x EO
2. EO x (MMM x BAG)
3. Farthest North x MMR not dwarf
4. Farthest North x EO
5. MMM x PZ x MMM x BAG
6. MMR dwarf x EO
7. Fruity x EO
8. Fisher's Mountain boy x (MMM x BAG)
9. Fisher's earliest paste x (MMM x BAG)
10. (MMM x PZ) x (MMM x BRown rugose)
11. (MmM x LB pimp) x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
12. Bison x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
13. Idagold x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
14. ET x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
15. Uluru Ochre x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
16. Wilford x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
17. Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
18. MMS x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
19. Mandarin Mini x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
20. Prairie Fire x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
21. MMM x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
22. Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
22. Coyote x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
24. HR Galapagense type 3 x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
25. Solanum cheesemanii LA 0428 or LA 0429 x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
26. LA1410 Solanum galapagense x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
27. LA1404 Solanum cheesemanii x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
28. (BH x LA2329 F1) x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
29. (MMM x LA2329 F1) x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
30. (MMM x unknown f1) x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
31. (MMM x Sweet cherriette rl f2) x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
32. Dwarf Gloria's treat x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
33. Dwarf Gloria's treat x (PL MMM x Sweet Cherriette F2)
34. Siberian x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
35. Muddy Waters x MMR F2 not dwarf
36. Hoosier Rose x (Dwarf Mochas x MMS an F1)
Quite a few were tiny flowers in the open field and I stuck with the emasculation technique. Weather is cool, partly cloudy, with some smoke looks like. I don't expect the F1 LA2329 hybrids to work as mothers but I tried anyway because they didn't have flowers far along enough to do otherwise.
Odds of taking might improve generally if I redip tomorrow.
Got Idagold in there so now all the surrounding states are included in my nostalgia project.
X 2023 Took? Still to X 2023 Tomatoes
1 1. Amethyst Cream
Y Y 2. Anmore Dewdrop 2018 from BC*
2 3. Payette from Idaho*
3 4. Sandpoint from Idaho*
4 5. Golden Bison North Dakota*
Y 6. Cheesemanii Hybrid from Terrior Seeds*
Y Y 7. exserted orange stock seed*
Y Y 8. Exserted red tiger with best blue for stock seed 2020 *
Y 9. Mission Mountain Sunrise (from crossing blocks (at least two packets to plant)
Y 10. Wagner Muddy Waters
Y 11. Dwarf Eagle Smiley*
Y 12. Mission Mountain Morning F3 (from crossing blocks at least three packets to plant)
Y 16. LA0428 & LA0429
Y 17. LA1404 s. Cheesemaniae
5 18. LA2329 habrochaites
Y 19. LA1410 galapagense
Y 20. MMM X LA2329
6 21. MMM X (galapagense x Unknown)
Y 24. BH X LA2329- one sprouted
7 25. Promiscuous x LA2329 – F2 sprouted
8 26. MMM X(Promiscuous X LA2329) - sprouted
Y Y 27. Mission Mountain Rising F2!
Y 29. MMS x Dwarf Mocha's Cherry
Y 31. MMM X Sweet Cherriette = Mission Mountain Early F2!
Y 32. MMM X Unknowns
Y 33. MMM X Brad's Atomic Grape
Y 34. MMM x Brown Rugose tolerant current
Y Y 35. MMM x Late blight resistant current PH5
Y Y 36. MMM X Purple Zebra
9 37. Dwarf Gloria's Treat x currents
Y 38. Farthest North which is Bison X current from North Dakota*
10 39. Spoon?*
Y 40. Uluru Ochre*
11 41. Utah Heart*
12 42. Mr. Stripy*
Y 22 43. Hoosier Rose*
Y 23 44. Fruity*
13 45. Fuzzy*
14 46. McClintock a Montanan*
Y 47. Wilford from Wyoming*
Y 48. Mandarin Mini a Montanan*
15 49. Sunviva OSSI's European Sister*
Y 50. Ida Gold*
16 51. Flamenco
Y 52. Krainiy Sever
Y 53. Fisher's Earliest Paste a Montanan?*
Y y 54. Fisher's Prairie Fire a Montanan?!- corroborated at least once.*
Y y 55. Fisher's Mountain Boy a Montanan?*
Y 56 Coyote / White Current
*= Found but I found these all now except for the three ? islanders that I need to check on.
Y 57. Bison
Y 58. Dwarf Gloria's Treat
Looks like I have 16 crosses still to make to say everything that I intended to make a cross with has a cross- if they all take. Most of those I am waiting for to produce flowers.
Just fiddling around in the greenhouse.
Fisher's Prairie Fire x MMR non dwarf and ET x MMR non dwarf attempts made.
It is raining and both pollen and mothers must be in GH and I went through a lot of flowers yesterday.
Today's Backyard and Greenhouse crossing attempts:
McClintock x MMR non dwarf
Utah Heart x MMR non dwarf
Payette x MMR non dwarf
Mr. Stripey x MMR non dwarf
Golden Bison x MMR non dwarf
Yellow Tiger x MMR non dwarf
Sandpoint x MMR non dwarf
Amethyst Cream x MMR non dwarf
(Dwarf Mocha x MMS) x MMR non dwarf
Fruity x MMR non dwarf
(MMM x BAG) x MMR non dwarf
Many of these mothers were extremely early first flowers, earlier than usually, but I emasculated them and tried anyway. There are several days of cool weather this week which could lead to successful crosses.
That brings my crossing spreadsheet to this:
X 2023 Took? Still to X 2023 Tomatoes
Y 1. Amethyst Cream
Y Y 2. Anmore Dewdrop 2018 from BC*
Y 3. Payette from Idaho*
Y 4. Sandpoint from Idaho*
Y 5. Golden Bison North Dakota*
Y 6. Cheesemanii Hybrid from Terrior Seeds*
Y Y 7. exserted orange stock seed*
Y Y 8. Exserted red tiger with best blue for stock seed 2020 *
Y 9. Mission Mountain Sunrise (from crossing blocks (at least two packets to plant)
Y 10. Wagner Muddy Waters
Y 11. Dwarf Eagle Smiley*
Y 12. Mission Mountain Morning F3 (from crossing blocks at least three packets to plant)
Y 16. LA0428 & LA0429
Y 17. LA1404 s. Cheesemaniae
1 18. LA2329 habrochaites
Y 19. LA1410 galapagense
Y 20. MMM X LA2329
2 21. MMM X (galapagense x Unknown)
Y 24. BH X LA2329- one sprouted
3 25. Promiscuous x LA2329 – F2 sprouted
4 26. MMM X(Promiscuous X LA2329) - sprouted
Y Y 27. Mission Mountain Rising F2!
Y 29. MMS x Dwarf Mocha's Cherry
Y 31. MMM X Sweet Cherriette = Mission Mountain Early F2!
Y 32. MMM X Unknowns
Y 33. MMM X Brad's Atomic Grape
Y 34. MMM x Brown Rugose tolerant current
Y Y 35. MMM x Late blight resistant current PH5
Y Y 36. MMM X Purple Zebra
Y 37. Dwarf Gloria's Treat x currents
Y 38. Farthest North which is Bison X current from North Dakota*
5 39. Spoon?*
Y 40. Uluru Ochre*
Y 41. Utah Heart*
Y 42. Mr. Stripy*
Y 43. Hoosier Rose*
Y 44. Fruity*
6 45. Fuzzy*
Y 46. McClintock a Montanan*
Y 47. Wilford from Wyoming*
Y 48. Mandarin Mini a Montanan*
7 49. Sunviva OSSI's European Sister*
Y 50. Ida Gold*
8 51. Flamenco
Y 52. Krainiy Sever
Y 53. Fisher's Earliest Paste a Montanan?*
Y y 54. Fisher's Prairie Fire a Montanan?!- corroborated at least once.*
Y y 55. Fisher's Mountain Boy a Montanan?*
Y 56 Coyote / White Current
Y 57. Bison
Y 58. Dwarf Gloria's Treat
So perhaps only eight more crosses to attempt!
Open Field crosses today
(MMM x BAG) x Anmore Dewdrop
(MMM x Galapagense X unk) x (MMM x rugose fruit virus LA1375)
(MMM x purple zebra) x (MMM x LA1375)
Dwarf Gloria's Treat x (Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x MMS)
Plus I redipped much of what I crossed the day before yesterday
ET x MMM
(Promiscuous x LA2329 F2) x MMM
Just a photo of some of the greenhouse dwarfs all festooned with crossing tags.
Second photo of one of the larger fruits a Fisher's x Exserted Orange.
I just made my first attempt ever to collect pollen into little vials.
Some of them have a decent amount and some hardly any.
My wife bought the little vials for small seeds for her business. She said I could use some. So I took a handful with me out to the garden land!
I ended up with six vials of pollen. You can sort of work directly from the vial if there is pollen near the edge and it seems like you can shake the vials. If there is some in the bottom you can dump it back out into the pollen spoon. I used up two vials. The fullest is MMM x PH5 LB pimp and I decided to save it.
I attempted the following crosses:
1. Sunviva x mmm F3
2. MMM F3 x (MMM x LA2329 F1)
3. (MMM x GalapagenseX) x (MMM x LA2329F1)
4. EO x MMM F3
5. LA1410 x (MMM x LA2329)
6. EO x (MMM x BAG)
7. Yellow Tiger x (MMM x BAG)
8. Dwarf MMR x (MMM x BAG)
9. Fuzzy x (MMM x BAG)
10. EO x (MMM x LA2329)
Last weeks crosses look ok but it has been so cold not much development occurred. Older crosses also look good, some in tomatoes with good development.
These are both MMM x Unknown. I see evidence here that they are from different unknown pollen donors. One of the pollen donors is clearly an anthocyanin variety. Grew quite a few of those last year.
83?! 2023 attempted crosses so far.
(BH x LA2329 F1) x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
(Dwarf Mocha x MMS) x MMR non dwarf
(MMM x Aztek F2 not dwarf) x Exserted Orange)
(MMM x BAG) x Anmore Dewdrop
(MMM x BAG) x MMR non dwarf
(MMM x brad's atomic grape) x (MMM x rugose resistant pimp)
(MMM x Galapagense X unk) x (MMM x rugose fruit virus LA1375)
(MMM x GalapagenseX) x (MMM x LA2329F1)
(MMM x LA2329 F1) x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
(MmM x LB pimp) x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x PH5 Pimpinillifolium)
(MMM x purple zebra) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Sweet cherriette rl f2) x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
(MMM x unknown f1) x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
(Potato leaf F2 of MMM x Sweet cherriette) x (MMM x rugose)
(Promiscuous x LA2329 F2) x MMM
Amethyst Cream x MMR non dwarf
Bison x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Bison x MMM
Coyote x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Dwarf Gloria's Treat x (Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x MMS)
Dwarf Gloria's treat x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Dwarf Gloria's treat x (PL MMM x Sweet Cherriette F2)
Dwarf MMR x (MMM x BAG)
EO x (MMM x BAG)
EO x (MMM x LA2329)
EO x MMM F3
ET x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
ET x MMM
ET x MMR non dwarf
Exserted Orange x Anmore Dewdrop
Exserted Tiger x Exserted Orange
Exserted tiger x MMM
Farthest North x EO
Farthest North x MMR not dwarf
Fisher's earliest paste x (MMM x BAG)
Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Fisher's Earliest Paste x Exserted Orange
Fisher's Mountain boy x (MMM x BAG)
Fisher's Mountain Boy x Exserted Orange
Fisher's Prairie Fire x Exserted Orange
Fisher's Prairie Fire x MMR non dwarf
Fruity x EO
Fruity x MMR non dwarf
Fuzzy x (MMM x BAG)
Fuzzy x Fruity
Golden Bison x MMR non dwarf
Hoosier Rose x (Dwarf Mochas x MMS an F1)
HR Galapagense type 3 x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Idagold x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Krainy Sever x MMR non-dwarf
LA1404 Solanum cheesemanii x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
LA1410 Solanum galapagense x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
LA1410 x (MMM x LA2329)
Mandarin Mini x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Mandarin Mini x MMM
McClintock x MMR non dwarf
MMM F3 x (MMM x LA2329 F1)
MMM x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
MMM x (MMM x LB pimp)
MMM x PZ x MMM x BAG
MMM x wilford
MMR dwarf x EO
MMR dwarf x Farthest North
MMR non-dwarf x Exserted Orange
MMS x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Mr. Stripey x MMR non dwarf
Muddy Waters x MMR F2 not dwarf
Payette x MMR non dwarf
Prairie Fire x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Sandpoint x MMR non dwarf
Siberian x MMM
Siberian x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Solanum cheesemanii LA 0428 or LA 0429 x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Sunviva x mmm F3
Terrior galapagense x MMM
Uluru Ochre x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Utah Heart x MMR non dwarf
Wilford x (MMM x Brown Rugose)
Yellow Tiger x (MMM x BAG)
Yellow tiger x EO
Yellow Tiger x MMR non dwarf
Wowee William
Are you going for a World Record?
I'm only doing three or four crosses a day (working with one pollen parent per day to reduce cross-contamination worries) Most of my crosses are repeats, as a backup, just incase the first fruit fails the seedling leaf test. Even then I'm worried about how I'll accommodate/monitor all the hybrids next year. How on earth are you going to cope with (potentially) 83??
Tim DH
I don't think they will all take. Alot of them may not prove exciting or strategic.
I may ultimately combine some of them into grexes or simply a grex or two.
One thought is plant four seedlings of each cross. Then combine the rest into a direct seeded grex.
Logical grex combinations might include all descendents of Mission Mountain Mother, all descendents of Exserted Orange, or all descendants of LA1375 which may give some resistance to late blight. For instance.
As Joseph Lofthouse has pointed out eloquently combining things is a great way to reduce record keeping and self imposed stress.
I may cease to grow other people's tomatoes.
I also suspect my list still has duplicates I found one earlier so the true number is 82 or lower.
Oddly I still have a number of important intended crosses to make. Not all plants of all types have gotten a blossom even to the point where I can use it as a emasculated mother. Some of those left are rather important to me.
Wow William very awesome to make so much cross!
How can you found the place for tryed all the f2?
Quote from: Adrian on 2023-06-25, 10:08:41 AMWow William very awesome to make so much cross!
How can you found the place for tryed all the f2?
I cannot. If they all take I will have to make some combination grex.
Also some are partial siblings. For visible traits like stripes, blue skin, and potato leaf I have realized I can make crosses that will still segregate in ways that are helpful. So I can cross two F1s with one allele each for stripes and grow out the F2 and expect to still get 25% stripes. Likewise I can make a new cross with something striped and get 50% stripes in the offspring.
I just attempted to collect some pollen from my F1 MMM x LA2329 and some from Exserted Tiger. Both in vials.
I also attempted Exserted Tiger x (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape). I think that is a logical combination. High likelihood of stripes and blue anyway.
Fisher's earliest paste x (MMM x BAG) high likelihood of paste type.
Amethyst Cream x MMM which should retain blue.
This is a giant step to creating your own landrace, William. Awesome hard work... no waiting for bees.
Thanks. I think the results of my 2022 crossing blocks may have pushed me in this direction. The number of crosses on my to do list from prior years has been high. A lot of those are getting crossing attempts this year.
Out in the gardens today I was noticing some failed attempts and some takes.
I just used vial pollen to make the following two attempts:
Dwarf MMR x (MMM x LA1375 brown rugose fruit virus resistant pimpinillifolium)
Dwarf MMR x (MMM x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
These two maintain the 50% Mission Mountain Morning heritage with a decent chance of dwarfing in the F2.
Backyard and Greenhouse Crosses that have taken (green fruits in development) as of today 7-1-2023
Backyard
1. Farthest North x EO
2. (MMM x Purple Zebra) x (MMM x BAG)
3. EO x (MMM x BAG)
4. Yellow Tiger x MMR non dwarf
5. Muddy Waters x MMR non dwarf
Greenhouse
6. Krainiy Sever x MMR non dwarf
7. Dwarf MMR x EO
8. Dwarf MMR x (MMM x BAG)
9. Dwarf MMR x Farthest North
10. (Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x MMS) x MMR non dwarf
11. Fruity x MMR non dwarf
12. Fruity x EO
13. ET x MMR non dwarf
14. Fisher's Prairie Fire x EO
15. Fisher's Prairie Fire x MMR non dwarf
16. Exserted Orange x Anmore Dewdrop
17. Fisher's Mountain Boy x EO
18. ET x EO
19. Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM x BAG)
20. MMR non Dwarf x EO
Just made three whole anther cone transplants. It is windy, hot, and afternoon. So I wasn't getting any pollen.
1. Galahad F1 x (MMM x purple zebra f1)
2. (MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x Muddy Waters
3. Flamenco x (MMM x Solanum galapagense hybrid)
Apparently successful crosses for 7-1-2023 continued.
Open Field
21. Dwarf Gloria's Treat x (PL MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
22. (Rl MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x LA1375 brown rugose tolerant pimpinillifolium
23. (MMM x galapagense cross) x (MMM x LA2329)
24. (MMM x Purple zebra) x (MMM x LA1375)
25. (MMM x Purple Zebra) x (MMM x LB PH5)
26. (MMM x LB ph5) x (MMM x LA1375)
27. Bison x (MMM x LA1375)
28. Bison x MMM
29. Idagold x (MMM x LA1375)
30. ET x MMM
31. ET x (MMM x BAG)
32. Wilford x (MMM x LA1375)
33. Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x LA1375)
34. Solanum Cheesemanii LA0428 or LA0429 x (MMM x LA1375)
35. MMS x (MMM x LA1375)
36. MMM x (MMM x LA1375)
37. Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM x LA1375)
38. Siberia x MMM
39. Amethyst Cream x MMM
40. EO x MMM F3
How can you tell so quickly that you have a successful cross, rather than selfing or an unplanned cross with a different variety?
Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-07-02, 06:47:11 AMHow can you tell so quickly that you have a successful cross, rather than selfing or an unplanned cross with a different variety?
I am confident in my technique after watching available youtube videos and years of practice. I know that tomato flowers that are not fully open are not yet releasing pollen. So once I emasculate they are not going to be pollinated by something else then intended. These crosses are between a week and four weeks old so most are not subtle. However, there are some I am not calling yet. I had one take sort of wait a very long time before maturing last year. There are also some I could call as failed but I chose to count the successes only for simplicity. Most common reason for failure is probably using too young of a flower. Those probably would have worked if I could have redipped them three days in a row.
Though if in doubt two relatively easy ways to be more sure are to use potato leaf mothers and regular leaf fathers. Or dwarf mothers and normal fathers. Regular leaf and normal non-dwarf are dominant traits easy to observe in young seedlings.
I just attempted hand crosses of volunteer Mission Mountain potato leafs with volunteer The One in both directions. Used ten flowers total as mothers.
Also just did attempts in the greenhouse and backyard of
1. EO x LA2329
2. ET x LA2329
3. Sandpoint x (RL MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
4. Fuzzy x (RL MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
5. Hoosier Rose x (RL MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
Backyard
6. Mr. Stripey x Dwarf MMR
7. Sunviva x Dwarf MMR
8. Payette x Dwarf MMR
9. Utah Heart x Dwarf MMR
10. Golden Bison x Dwarf MMR
11. Yellow Tiger x Dwarf MMR
12. EO x Dwarf MMR
13. Galahad F1 x Dwarf MMR
Back to Greenhouse
14. Hoosier Rose x Dwarf MMR
Also for takes I can add dwarf MMR x (MMM x PH5 late blight pimp)
I was re-reading this thread, and I wanted to ask: Are potato-leaf varieties more commonly known to have more exposed stigma than other varieties? Or is there some other benefit?
Potato leafs are known to be more likely to be exserted.
However, only one of the potato leafs I grew in 2017 had a good form of an exserted stigma trait. That ended up mothering my Mission Mountain project.
The other benefit is that potato leaf or PL is recessive and makes a good marker that a cross has taken or that a natural cross has occurred.
I have note a thing.
PL is not totaly recessive crossed with wispy leaf and gave extremly vigorous plants.Some of my f2 between canestrino di lucca and andine cornue started by potato leaf at the firsts internodes and gave wispy leafs after the firsts flowers branchs.The leafs are extremly large.
Potato leaf can probably improve the vigor at started of grow for me.
My f1 has also started by potato leafs
(https://opensourceplantbreeding.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=1953;image)
I used the anther cone transplant method Walt taught us on five flowers of dwarf Mission Mountain Rising tonight with Brad Gates Amethyst Cream as the pollen donor.
Where can I find the instructions for anther cone transplanting?
Glide anther cone on the pistil is the most time sufficient. You can eventually crimp the anther cone very slowly without broken the pistil if he glide at down.
Quote from: Diane Whitehead on 2023-07-05, 08:48:44 AMWhere can I find the instructions for anther cone transplanting?
Walt made his original post sometime on the old Homegrown Goodness forum.
What I do is emasculate the mother as usual with sepals, petals, and anther cone removed.
Then I pick the entire pollen donor flower. Strip off the sepals and bracts. Then there is a reason why I use this technique only with small cherries and current tomatoes. It is because these seem to have a nice solid ring of connective tissue at the base of the anther cone. I clip the stem end of the anther cone off a little with my fingernail. Then push the style through with my forceps if easy to do so. Then I simply slide the anther cone over the exposed style and stigma of the recipient. They tend to stay on fairly well. Yesterday my anther cone transplants from Sunday were still on.
If you want to use an anther cone on a large stigma plant, split it down one side and stretch it over the top of the stigma
Thank you Adrian and William.
That sounds easier for me than trying to tap pollen onto black plastic. I seldom get any pollen.
Here are two more photos. 1. Anther cones dried but still in place a day later. 2. Emasculated before placing the anther cones
I would say that The One x Mission Mountain has taken nicely.
My first ripe tomato of 2023 is F2 potato leaf Mission Mountain Morning x Sweet Cherriette
1/4 mission Mountain Morning which also means 1/8 unknown Lofthouse Potato leaf and 1/8 Blue Gold
1/4 Big Hill HX-9 OSSI bred by Joseph Lofthouse and thus 1/8 Jagodka and 1/8 Hillbilly
1/2 Sweet Cherriette bred by Tim Peters
I picked fruit from three plants from the cross. 2 potato leaf one regular leaf.
The only potato leaf I grew was the one I call "Brad", and it's descendants.
Quote from: Joseph Lofthouse on 2023-07-08, 06:34:42 PMThe only potato leaf I grew was the one I call "Brad", and it's descendants.
That could easily have been the case. Some of the segregates also had Brad style spots.
I saw potato-leaved, and those spots on a tomato in a neighbor's yard, and they had a name on a label, and I got all excited, and rushed home to research the tomato. But alas, the name was of a German seed company, and they didn't have any tomatoes like it in their catalog.
The lady that grew the plants is notorious for mixing things up, so it's very possible that she was growing my Brad...
It looks to me like Sandpoint x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette regular leaf F2) is a take.
Fourth crossed generation in my garden.
Sandpoint is interesting because it has Payette's dwarfing plus some ancestry from the Subarctic project in Alberta. Sandpoint has a tiny bit of ND ancestry via Bison and is a true bioregional variety with early modern genetics from interspecies crosses.
Very interesting to know so much about the ancestry of a tomato.
Just attempted a few crosses with regular leaf Mission Mountain Morning x Sweet Cherriette F2
Fuzzy
Exserted Tiger
McClintock
Golden Bison
Utah Heart
Your garden spreads over how many acres?
Quote from: Diane Whitehead on 2023-07-11, 07:42:25 PMYour garden spreads over how many acres?
Eight and a couple of other places. There are nine spots basically where I have a few tomato plants. So it is really more like nine modest gardens than one enormous garden. This year I am only using eight of those garden spots though. Rototiller troubles.
Rototiller troubles are the most time not difficults.What is the problem?
Quote from: Adrian on 2023-07-12, 08:48:40 AMRototiller troubles are the most time not difficults.What is the problem?
They are fixed now. Mainly the problem was me being too busy to load them up and take them in to be serviced.
I managed to make two additional backyard crossing attempts in the gloaming. Transplanted anther technique.
Payette x (MMM x Purple Zebra)
Utah Heart x (MMM x galapagense cross)
Then I looked up at all the accumulated tags and thought- I should take a picture of that!
Just attempted crosses
1. (MMM x BAG) x (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329))
2. Uluru Ochre x (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329))
3. Exserted Tiger x (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329))
4. Bison x (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329))
5. The One x (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329)) except I didn't have a pricetag for this last cross so hoping I can remember it is on the same The One plant as three The One x (MMM x RL sweet cherriette) attempts in the NW garden and hang a tag on it next Saturday.
6. Exserted Orange x (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329))
7. (MMM x (Galapagense x unk)) x (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329))
Excited about the 25% LA2329 plants and there are only two of them that look like they will survive to reproduce. So I got this pollen from the best of those. It has large but pale flowers and seems to be selfing readily. Some of these combo attempts will likely get repeated if the plants keep growing and blooming. Most excited about the attempts with The One and the Galapagense cross. If I am doing the math right each of these new crosses, if they take, will get 5/32 wild genes from this pollen parent though The One is about 1/4 so that would be maintained as is the Galapagense cross.
8. Fruity x fuzzy
9. Fuzzy x Fruity
10. EO x Fruity
I bought more seeds! I got some seeds from Native Seed Search and ordered some from Sandhill Preservation Center the latter for Idaho and North Dakota bred varieties.
Also just when I was thinking I should stop growing other people's tomatoes...
First 2023 seeds are in packets. MMM x Sweet Cherriette
MMM x Unknown F1 is ripening big fruits. (Pictured)
Got ripe fruit back for four 2023 hand crosses this afternoon.
1. MMR non dwarf x EO which might lead to an blue orange tomato
2. EO x Anmore Dewdrop which might lead to extra early orange exserted offspring.
3. MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp) which may make recovering potato leaf blue exserted bicolor easier.
4. (MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium) which should segregate similarly to either of the parent crosses in the F1 so should be a fun cross.
Of these crosses all but number three are now fermenting. Number three is actually two fruits and one of them is only a little bit ripe. Letting it ripen a bit more before fermenting will give a faster fermentation and a fruit to eat rather than compost.
There are at least fourteen 2022 crosses in my garden and two of those are in F2's with selected segregates already. I detected two more recently as the previous count was twelve and there may well be more.
2022 Crosses
MMM x Aztek (now in both dwarf and non dwarf F2 segregates)
MMM x Sweet Cherriette (now in both potato leaf and regular leaf F2 segregates)
MMM x Brown Rugose LA1934
MMM x LB PH5 Pimp
Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x MMS
Dwarf Gloria's Treat x Pimps
Dwarf Gloria's Treat x Blue Beefsteak
MMM x Blue Unknown beefsteak
MMM X Red Unknown beefsteak
MMM x Purple Zebra F1
MMM x LA2329
MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329)
MMM x (Galapagense x Unknown)
MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape
MMM x Unknown I just cut up a few to ferment the seeds and make tomato slices and mozzarella.
They seem to come in yellow, reddish, large, small and bicolor. The dark blue ones aren't ripe yet. Suggesting to me perhaps as many as five different regular leaf fathers.
Exserted Orange, Orange Hill, The One, Blue Gold, Galahad F1, Cloudy Day F1, exserted tiger, several blue green when ripe, and many others were in the vicinity.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-07-21, 03:46:07 PMMMM x Unknown F1 is ripening big fruits. (Pictured)
Got ripe fruit back for four 2023 hand crosses this afternoon.
1. MMR non dwarf x EO which might lead to an blue orange tomato
2. EO x Anmore Dewdrop which might lead to extra early orange exserted offspring.
3. MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp) which may make recovering potato leaf blue exserted bicolor easier.
4. (MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium) which should segregate similarly to either of the parent crosses in the F1 so should be a fun cross.
Of these crosses all but number three are now fermenting. Number three is actually two fruits and one of them is only a little bit ripe. Letting it ripen a bit more before fermenting will give a faster fermentation and a fruit to eat rather than compost.
Ok now I have additionally picked these 2023 crosses so all new F1s:
5. Fisher's Prarie Fire x EO
6. Bison x MMM
7. ET no stripes x EO
8. (MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
9. (MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375)
10. Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM x LA1375)
11. Ida Gold x (MMM x LA1375)
12. (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x (MMM x LA1375)
13. (MMM x Aztek non dwarf F2) x EO
Have also picked some of the 2022 crosses:
1. MMM x Sweet Cherriette
2. MMM x Aztek non dwarf
3. MMM x LA1375
4. Dwarf Gloria's treat x pimps
5. MMM x Purple Zebra
6. Dwarf Gloria's treat x unknown large tomato
7. MMM x PH5 LB pimp
8. MMM x Unknown in ~5 variations. Red, yellow, bicolor, blue, and small which may represent different fathers.
Also fron 2021 there is MMM F3 which will be F4 in 2024 and from 2017 there is MMS F6 which will be F7 in 2024.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-07-23, 04:00:04 PM8. (MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
I'd be interested how the MMM x Purple Zebra F2 turn out if you go that way, in particular, how much earliness was affected by Purple Zebra. I wonder if we can get an indication of how that might go, from the F1?
As well as crossing with it, I have been contemplating also growing out PZ F2 and onwards. Maybe unwise if it's not going to be early enough, but I thought just stabilizing it might be good for a project. Has anyone considered that?
Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2023-07-23, 04:24:36 PMI'd be interested how the MMM x Purple Zebra F2 turn out if you go that way, in particular, how much earliness was affected by Purple Zebra. I wonder if we can get an indication of how that might go, from the F1?
As well as crossing with it, I have been contemplating also growing out PZ F2 and onwards. Maybe unwise if it's not going to be early enough, but I thought just stabilizing it might be good for a project. Has anyone considered that?
Purple Zebra F1 and now my (MMM x Purple Zebra) F1 are not terribly late here. Next year I do expect some of them will be much earlier.
I think I've decided it is much more fun to cross with hybrids than dehybridize them straight.
I hope to make a tomato cross this year that is something like Galahad F1 x (MMM x Purple Zebra).
One thing with me is I just don't have the disease pressure necessary to stabilize something with good disease resistance.
New tomato seeds!
Here is what Dwarf Gloria's Treat x mixed current tomato pollen came out as. Red cherry tomatoes with green shoulders. Uniform.
The F2 next year should have far more variation! Dwarfs, potato leafs, bicolors, large, and small. Though with this cross, I think I will likely cross again to get blue skin and exserted stigmas into the mix.
There is no joy quite like getting a new pack of seeds.
Those wild varieties from Texas and Mexico look like they'll be a fun grow.
Quote from: Mica Winnower on 2023-07-23, 10:06:26 PMThere is no joy quite like getting a new pack of seeds.
Those wild varieties from Texas and Mexico look like they'll be a fun grow.
They should be fun. Some sound long season, some sound short season. Of course, I will probably try to cross them into the project.
They all sound quite similar to the Dwarf Gloria's Treat x mixed pimps F1 cherry tomatoes I just saved seed from. Though without the awesome expected segregation next year.
This (see attached photo) is supposed to be a new F1 ET x EO. I suspect it is actually (ET x Unk) x EO. There are no stripes, no blue. So the mother is off type.
I've planted some crossing blocks in recent years that I never did much with that likely contained things like EO, ET, and Joseph's promiscuous project. This mother depending on the packet I used could be a result. There are several more crosses that have taken on the ET? Plant. It is the one in the greenhouse. It does have some exsertion. Doesn't seem like a good prospect for bringing in stripes or blue skin but they may still be present and segregate back out at a lower level.
Sort of puts it in the same category as other Exserted Orange crosses I made or attempted like Exserted Orange x Farthest North or Exserted Orange x Anmore Dewdrop. Likely a lot of red and orange segregants.
MMM x Unknown blue bicolor likely one of Brad Gates maybe even Blue Gold which would make it 5/8ths Blue Gold.
Hi William,
You have used Purple Zebra F1 quite a few times above. Since PZ is newly released I haven't found any growers assessment of its characteristics. (As compared to what the seed sellers say!) How have you found it for growth habit, productivity and flavour? Any other notable pros/cons??
Tim DH
Quote from: Tim DH on 2023-07-28, 03:09:18 AMHi William,
You have used Purple Zebra F1 quite a few times above. Since PZ is newly released I haven't found any growers assessment of its characteristics. (As compared to what the seed sellers say!) How have you found it for growth habit, productivity and flavour? Any other notable pros/cons??
Tim DH
Last year I grew one plant in the back yard raised bed. It was a small plant- this may have been environmental. The fruit tasted ok but I am not sure I personally like the dark reds. I tried a fruit of the cross I made with my Mission Mountain Morning last night and it seemed more promising. I only managed one cross with it last year. A single fruit and then from those F1's am making subsequent crosses. I like that it has a suite of resistance genes and I like that it has stripes.
Four new F1s picked tonight:
1. Krainiy Sever x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
2. Fruity x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
3. Fruity x Exserted Orange + a second dip with (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
4. Fisher's Mountain Boy x EO
More ET no stripes x EO F1s picked
This year I grew Purple Zebra because William suggested it. I planted two plants. One as five tomatoes and the other has three. We've been in drought status here since 2020 and this year's garden is a little rough. Purple Zebra has as many tomatoes as Firesteel (a South Dakota bred tomato) and much more than Bison (a North Dakota tomato).
I am glad you found Firesteel Randy. That sounds like a neat addition to a South Dakota tomato project.
I picked some new F1 crosses in my garden today and yesterday.
1. ET x MMM
2. Siberia x MMM
3. Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
4. Farthest North x EO
5. Wilford x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
6. Bison x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
7. Yellow Tiger x EO
I think that brings me to 24 new F1s picked.
Another Bison x MMM F1 picked and more (MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
I also picked my first Dwarf Mochas cherry x MMS today which is F2 seed which is fun because it has full blue color stable already.
Full list of picked crosses below:
MMR non dwarf x EO which might lead to an blue orange tomato
EO x Anmore Dewdrop which might lead to extra early orange exserted offspring.
MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp) which may make recovering potato leaf blue exserted bicolor easier.
(MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
Fisher's Prairie Fire x EO
Bison x MMM
ET no stripes x EO
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375)
Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM x LA1375)
Ida Gold x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Aztek non dwarf F2) x EO
Krainiy Sever x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fruity x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fruity x Exserted Orange + a second dip with (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fisher's Mountain Boy x EO
ET x MMM
Siberia x MMM
Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Farthest North x EO
Wilford x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Bison x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Yellow Tiger x EO
Back into packets progress is ten new F1s and seven F2, one F3 and one F4.
Between nineteen and twenty one different things as I have two possible fathers saved separate for MMM x Unknown and RL and PL saved separate for MMM x Sweet Cherriette.
Today's new packets. Some may be repeats.
Excited about a cross with Krainy Sever which stands up really well and keeps its fruit off the ground.
What did you cross with Krainy Sever? So far that has been one of my best producers, and it's an upright dwarf.
The taste is not that great. My husband said, "It tastes like a tomato," meaning lycopene flavor and not sweet. I think it would be better for canning than fresh.
But for breeding potential, I give Krainy Sever an A+.
Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-08-02, 08:29:45 AMWhat did you cross with Krainy Sever? So far that has been one of my best producers, and it's an upright dwarf.
The taste is not that great. My husband said, "It tastes like a tomato," meaning lycopene flavor and not sweet. I think it would be better for canning than fresh.
But for breeding potential, I give Krainy Sever an A+.
I agree it has good breeding potential! I crossed it with an non dwarf F2 of MMM x Aztek. So potentials of yellow, bicolor, blue skin and maybe dwarfing.
I am not impressed with the dwarf F2s of MMM x Aztek though. They are falling over- the two of the four not in cages. I have more hope for dwarfism from Payette and Krainy Sever which do not fall over.
Though another cross I am excited about is Sandpoint x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf) I think it will also be promising as Sandpoint got its dwarfism from Payette. .
New F1 Crosses Picked today:
(MMM X GalapagenseX) X (MMM x LA2329)
MMS x (MMM x LA1375)
Sunviva x MMMF3
Amethyst Cream x MMM
Yellow Tiger x (MMM x Aztek)
EO x (MMM X BAG)
MMR Dwarf x Farthest North (note, yellow with no blue)
(MMM X Purple Zebra) X (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
(MMM X Aztek non dwarf) X EO note: just reciprocal cross
ET no stripes no blue x MMM X Aztek non dwarf
Yellow Tiger x (MMM X Brad's Atomic Grape)
Muddy Waters x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
What are the advantage of amethyst cream or a tomato with r in a cross?
I'm not impressed with the MMM x Aztek F2 either, though for a different reason.
The other tomatoes all around them have healthy, relatively thick green stems. Not all are upright and some have fruit on the ground, but overall they are doing pretty well.
However, the Aztek F2 stems have turned brown and look nearly dead. There are several bicolor fruit, black on top and green on the bottom, but the plant appears to be dying very early in the tomato season. (See pictures on my Vermont Short & Sweet thread.)
Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-08-04, 06:42:26 AMI'm not impressed with the MMM x Aztek F2 either, though for a different reason.
The other tomatoes all around them have healthy, relatively thick green stems. Not all are upright and some have fruit on the ground, but overall they are doing pretty well.
However, the Aztek F2 stems have turned brown and look nearly dead. There are several bicolor fruit, black on top and green on the bottom, but the plant appears to be dying very early in the tomato season. (See pictures on my Vermont Short & Sweet thread.)
Interesting! It would appear then that Aztek doesn't contribute much of interest except some yellow color variation.
Quote from: Adrian on 2023-08-04, 05:13:46 AMWhat are the advantage of amethyst cream or a tomato with r in a cross?
Amethyst Cream is a blue and white tomato with good flavor. I like it. It should add some color variation.
I don't know what you mean by r.
I got more tomato seeds from Sandhill in the mail yesterday.
Siberian Pink. This is OSSI Pledged by Sandhill
Benewah from Idaho it is Pixie Hybrid x Sub Arctic Midi, I believe Sub Arctic Midi is hard to find now- part of the Sub Arctic series bred in Alberta, so this tomato has regional roots..
Bonner from ID bred by Arthur Boe
Gem State from Idaho
Imur Prior Beta- a potato leaf talked about a bit on the forum.
Kootenai from ID- a dwarf determinate!
Lark from North Dakota
Latah from Idaho
Nodak Early from North Dakota in 1990
Northern Delight, from North Dakota in 1990
Owyhee from Idaho
PSR 37 a potato leaf from Tim Peters
Shoshone from Idaho
Dakota Gold from North Dakota in 1984 bred by Arthur Boe
Fargo Yellow Pear from 1927 in North Dakota
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-08-04, 09:23:47 AMI believe Sub Arctic Midi is hard to find now- part of the Sub Arctic series bred in Alberta
Yes, the only Sub Arctic tomatoes being sold in Canada now are Sub Arctic Cherry, Sub Arctic Maxi and Sub Arctic Plenty.
The only Sub Arctic tomatoes I have grown, or even heard of, are Sub Arctic Plenty. I didn't know the others existed!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/pdf/10.4141/cjps72-018%3Fdownload%3Dtrue&ved=2ahUKEwic-cTkjsSAAxUeODQIHZUhBb4QFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1a6WpWpJeQhmDxmCsmkbvY
Oh wow!
The pdf at this link greatly demystifies the heritage of the Sub Arctic series!
Fireball, Farthest North, Fargo Yellow Pear, Polar Circle, and Firesteel are all ancestors. Of course Bison is an multiple ancestor of some of those lines. Farthest North is a Bison x Pimpinillifolium cross. So they all have current tomato from that same cross.
Firesteel = Marglobe x Bison
Fargo Yellow Pear = Bison x Yellow Pear
Also Payette has a tiny bit of Bison in it. So Sandpoint and Kootenai both have Bison ancestry four times in their pedigree.
Picked:
(MMM x Aztek dwarf segregate) x Exserted Orange cross.
MMM x (MMM x LA1375)
Exserted Tiger x (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
Today August fifth, 2023.
Made some new crossing attempts:
EO x LA2329 Hab
Hoosier Rose x (MMM x LA1375)
Hooser Rose x (MMM x Purple Zebra F1)
Mr. Stripey x (MMM x Purple Zebra F1)
Payette x (MMM x LA1375)
I've struggled some with Reed's three varieties I am growing out to cross. Looks like I have only two successful crosses so far both forming on Utah Heart. With MMM x Aztek dwarf segregate and MMM x Sweet Cherriette regular leaf segregate. Of many attempts.
Crosses picked so far = 39
MMR non dwarf x EO which might lead to an blue orange tomato
EO x Anmore Dewdrop which might lead to extra early orange exserted offspring.
MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp) which may make recovering potato leaf blue exserted bicolor easier.
(MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
Fisher's Prairie Fire x EO
Bison x MMM
ET no stripes x EO
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375)
Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM x LA1375)
Ida Gold x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Aztek non dwarf F2) x EO
Krainiy Sever x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fruity x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fruity x Exserted Orange + a second dip with (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fisher's Mountain Boy x EO
ET x MMM
Siberia x MMM
Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Farthest North x EO
Wilford x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Bison x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Yellow Tiger no blue x EO
(MMM X GalapagenseX) X (MMM x LA2329)
MMS x (MMM x LA1375)
Sunviva x MMMF3
Amethyst Cream x MMM
Yellow Tiger x (MMM x Aztek)
EO x (MMM X BAG)
MMR Dwarf x Farthest North (note, yellow with no blue)
(MMM X Purple Zebra) X (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
(MMM X Aztek non dwarf) X EO note: just reciprocal cross
ET no stripes no blue x MMM X Aztek non dwarf
Yellow Tiger x (MMM X Brad's Atomic Grape)
Muddy Waters x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
(MMM x Aztek Dwarf) X Exserted Orange
MMM x (MMM x LA1375)
Exserted Tiger x (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
39 have Big Hill HX-9 in ancestry
33 have MMM so possibly Jagodka and Brad
10 Have LA1375
9 Have ancestry from older varieties originating in MT or adjacent states and provinces
10 have Exserted Orange
9 have Aztek
7 have exserted tiger or sibling
3 Have purple zebra
Newly Picked F1's 8-10-2023 and 8-11-2023
Farthest North x (MMM X Aztek - non dwarf)
MMR Dwarf No Blue x (MMM X PH5 LB Pimp)
Fisher's Prairie Fire x (MMM X Aztek non dwarf)
MMR Dwarf bicolor no blue x EO
Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM X BAG)
(Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x MMS) X (non-dwarf F2 MMM x Aztek)
Newly Picked F2
MMMF2 x (Promiscuous x LA2329). Uniformly yellow, huge sepals, fuzzy.
2023 new F1 crosses picked Total:
MMR non dwarf x EO which might lead to an blue orange tomato
EO x Anmore Dewdrop which might lead to extra early orange exserted offspring.
MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp) which may make recovering potato leaf blue exserted bicolor easier.
(MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
Fisher's Prairie Fire x EO
Bison x MMM
ET no stripes x EO
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375)
Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM x LA1375)
Ida Gold x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Aztek non dwarf F2) x EO
Krainiy Sever x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fruity x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fruity x Exserted Orange + a second dip with (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fisher's Mountain Boy x EO
ET x MMM
Siberia x MMM
Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Farthest North x EO
Wilford x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Bison x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Yellow Tiger no blue x EO
(MMM X GalapagenseX) X (MMM x LA2329)
MMS x (MMM x LA1375)
Sunviva x MMMF3
Amethyst Cream x MMM
Yellow Tiger x (MMM x Aztek)
EO x (MMM X BAG)
MMR Dwarf x Farthest North (note, yellow with no blue)
(MMM X Purple Zebra) X (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
ET no stripes no blue x MMM X Aztek non dwarf
Yellow Tiger x (MMM X Brad's Atomic Grape)
Muddy Waters x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
(MMM x Aztek Dwarf) X Exserted Orange
MMM x (MMM x LA1375)
Exserted Tiger x (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
Farthest North x (MMM X Aztek - non dwarf)
MMR Dwarf No Blue x (MMM X PH5 LB Pimp)
Fisher's Prairie Fire x (MMM X Aztek non dwarf)
MMR Dwarf bicolor no blue x EO
Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM X BAG)
(Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x MMS) X (non-dwarf F2 MMM x Aztek)
Stats that may aid in sorting these into groups for 2024:
43 have Big Hill HX-9 in ancestry
37 have MMM so possibly Jagodka and Brad
10 Have LA1375
12 Have ancestry from older varieties originating in MT or adjacent states and provinces
11 have Exserted Orange
11 have Aztek
7 have exserted tiger or sibling
4 have ph5 pimpinillifolium
3 Have purple zebra
I spent a little time with my 2022 and 2023 seed packets and quickly sorted them into 50 piles representing original crosses in my garden. I may not have eliminated all reciprocal or quite similar crosses by grouping them. Still it seems like I may have the beginnings of many potential varieties if one cross could equal one new variety. I don't think I would release any but the most unique or important of those- why have 25 blue bicolors? Just like why have 25 red tomatoes? Still it feels like I may have accomplished something interesting. New colors crossed in, stripes crossed in, potential resistances and tolerances crossed in, wild genes crossed in. Maybe a new shape added in. It seems like an interesting start. I see lots of logical future crosses to make as well.
All of William's Crosses since 2017 as of 8-11-23
Blue Ambrosia x Amurski Tiger = Exserted Tiger and Yellow Tiger
Blue Ambrosia x Unknown = Pale Yellow
Lofthouse Potato Leaf (Brad?) x Blue Gold = Mission Mountain Sunrise
MMS x Big Hill HX-9 = Mission Mountain Morning
MMM x Aztek (now in both dwarf and non dwarf F2 segregates) = Mission Mountain Rising
MMS x Unknown
MMM x Sweet Cherriette (now in both potato leaf and regular leaf F2 segregates)
MMM x Brown Rugose LA1934
MMM x LB PH5 Pimp
Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x MMS
Dwarf Gloria's Treat x Pimps
Dwarf Gloria's Treat x Blue Beefsteak
MMM x Blue Unknown beefsteak
MMM x Purple Zebra F1
MMM x LA2329
MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329)
MMM x (Galapagense x Unknown)
MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape
MMR non dwarf x EO which might lead to an blue orange tomato
EO x Anmore Dewdrop which might lead to extra early orange exserted offspring.
MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp) which may make recovering potato leaf blue exserted bicolor easier.
(MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
Fisher's Prairie Fire x EO
Bison x MMM
ET no stripes x EO
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375)
Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM x LA1375)
Ida Gold x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Aztek non dwarf F2) x EO
Krainiy Sever x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fruity x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fruity x Exserted Orange + a second dip with (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
Fisher's Mountain Boy x EO
ET x MMM
Siberia x MMM
Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Farthest North x EO
Wilford x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Bison x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Yellow Tiger no blue x EO
(MMM X GalapagenseX) X (MMM x LA2329)
MMS x (MMM x LA1375)
Sunviva x MMMF3
Amethyst Cream x MMM
Yellow Tiger x (MMM x Aztek)
EO x (MMM X BAG)
MMR Dwarf x Farthest North (note, yellow with no blue)
(MMM X Purple Zebra) X (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
ET no stripes no blue x MMM X Aztek non dwarf
Yellow Tiger x (MMM X Brad's Atomic Grape)
Muddy Waters x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
(MMM x Aztek Dwarf) X Exserted Orange
MMM x (MMM x LA1375)
Exserted Tiger x (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
Farthest North x (MMM X Aztek - non dwarf)
MMR Dwarf No Blue x (MMM X PH5 LB Pimp)
Fisher's Prairie Fire x (MMM X Aztek non dwarf)
MMR Dwarf bicolor no blue x EO
Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM X BAG)
(Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x MMS) X (non-dwarf F2 MMM x Aztek)
Edit: I left out the 2021 and 2022 crosses with LA2329
Promiscuous x LA2329
Big Hill x LA2329
MMM x LA2329
The latter two haven't set any fruit. Hmm. Maybe should not have isolated them from the promiscuous x LA2329. Though I did use them in a cross.
MMM x BAG F1
I saved some seed from Bison last night. I'm not sure my Bison is still Bison. Looks like a putative F1 with something blue like the Blue Ambrosia I was working with so much as the most exserted tomato in my garden in 2017. Don't think I've grown out Bison that often since so the cross could date back that far.
If that hypothesis proves true some or the crosses I made with it this year would likely segregate very nicely in the F1.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-08-02, 06:46:43 PMI agree it has good breeding potential! I crossed it with an non dwarf F2 of MMM x Aztek. So potentials of yellow, bicolor, blue skin and maybe dwarfing.
I am not impressed with the dwarf F2s of MMM x Aztek though. They are falling over- the two of the four not in cages. I have more hope for dwarfism from Payette and Krainy Sever which do not fall over.
Though another cross I am excited about is Sandpoint x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf) I think it will also be promising as Sandpoint got its dwarfism from Payette. .
Sandpoint fell over too. I'm thinking it may be an artifact of the greenhouse environment. I hope so as a lot of Aztek genetics are spread around now.
Does Uluru Ochre fall over?
My clump of four Uluru Ochre has produced zero hybrids and zero fruit but has not fallen over. It is out in the open field. I think it needs better care.
Oh that's interesting, sounds quite disappointing! No fruit!
My Uluru Ochre, three plants in the same bed but not in a clump, is growing upright and looks healthy.
However, it has produced zero fruit. One plant does have some blossoms, so perhaps I will get something.
But all my other varieties have already produced fruit.
It may be a good variety for some climates and soils, but it's a loser for me (and apparently for William).
Not a loser, just not to be grown by clump like most early adapted varieties can tolerate. I suspect that if grown normally, it would probably be fine. It is actually kind of intriguing when a variety can't tolerate something. Like R18 and The One are not doing great in pots on a deck. Huge plants with no fruit yet- did finally start blooming. R18 produced no fruit last year in the shady crowded backyard bed. Mr. Stripey may be having a similar problem in the same bed as might Hoosier Rose but in the greenhouse. LA1410 doesn't do well in the greenhouse or with competition but does fine in a clump in full sun.
My Uluru Ochre doesn't have as many tomatoes as the other Dwarf Project plants, but one of its tomatoes has been ripe for a long time. It is much smaller than the green tomatoes. One lobe is ripe but the rest of the fruit is dark brown and hard. I've thrown it away.
No other plant has ripened a tomato yet.
Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-08-13, 06:06:01 AMHowever, it has produced zero fruit.
Oh, again disappointing! Let's hope crosses with it might bring some more reliability out...
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-08-13, 06:19:16 AMLA1410 doesn't do well in the greenhouse or with competition but does fine in a clump in full sun.
Hmm... yeah seems Galapapos tomatoes need lots of sun. By the way, my arcanum (LA2172 x/+ LA1708) produces flowers even in my indoor grow room with basically no sun even when in the far corner with very little light reaching it from the LED lights. Which I am very impressed about. I'm hoping that this trait will be useful in the crosses, for our low light conditions being Northerly and cloudy.
Crosses picked today include:
The One! X MM
Flamenco x (MMM x galapagense X)
Krainy Sever x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf + MMM x BAG in a redip)
Sandpoint x (MMM x Sweet cherriette)
ET no stripes no blue x LA2329
Yellow Tiger x Dwarf MMR
Dwarf MMR x (MMM X BAG)
Fisher's Mountain Boy X (MMM X Aztek non dwarf)
Justin, it's hard to cross it when it produces hardly any flowers. :-)
Working on saving more seed of a Montana Tomato Project OSSI descent grex I already have 1.8 ounce of dry seed for.
Ancestors are most of my 2022 crosses excluding those with LA2329 in them as I don't think that is ready for most folks.
Mostly saving seed of just a few tomatoes at a time.
Got tired last night and left skins on. More work on the next steps I suppose but maybe less overall.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-08-12, 10:19:17 AMI saved some seed from Bison last night. I'm not sure my Bison is still Bison. Looks like a putative F1 with something blue like the Blue Ambrosia I was working with so much as the most exserted tomato in my garden in 2017. Don't think I've grown out Bison that often since so the cross could date back that far.
If that hypothesis proves true some or the crosses I made with it this year would likely segregate very nicely in the F1.
Saved some more seed from these two.
I use sandwich baggies to collect my crosses and small seed savings in. Then I cut them at the equator with a serrated steak knife. Squeeze and scrape with the knife into a cup. Put the cup back into the already labeled bag. Let ferment. Rinse and dry.
Then I rinsed it and dehydrated it and crumbled it a bit. My 2023 tomato grex.
4.34 ounces and there is just a little bit more in the dehydrator still.
I have covid again. Am quarantining from my family. So can't check my tomato gardens. Maybe my wife will be able to on my behalf.
Edit: My wife just picked about half a dozen things. Mostly new F1's but also some of what will be F3 MMR dwarf.
Two crosses with Reed's Utah Heart.
Another cross with Amethyst Cream.
Galahad F1 X (MMM x Purple Zebra F1)
The new crosses are as follows and now are fermenting.
Amethyst Cream x (MMM X PZ)
Galahad F1 x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1)
Utah Heart x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
Utah Heart x (MMR Dwarf)
I got some new crosses picked today including:
Fruity x Fuzzy
McClintock x Dwarf MMR
Payette x Dwarf MMR - curious what that will do?! Dwarf x Dwarf but with different origins could lead to?
Exserted Orange x (MMM x BAG) - might be a repeat.
I think there was a fifth, but I can't recall what. Edit: Exserted tiger no stripes no blue x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
I also notably got my first Solanum galapagense seed back of the year.
Promiscuous x LA2329 F2 and or F3 seed got a little bit back for the first time this year.
Got half a bucket fermenting now of Joseph's promiscuous tomato project 2023 mostly direct seeded growout.
Very tired- day 10 of Covid19.
Just picked new F1's
1. (MMM x LA1375) x (MMM x galapagense X)
2. (MMM x Galapagense X) (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329)
Wasn't expecting them but spotted the tags!
Went back out found:
3. MCClintock x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
4. Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
Found a ripe Golden Bison x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) new F1 cross tonight.
Also:
(MMM x Purple zebra) x (mmm x galapagense x
It and some others are now fermenting, will likely be ready to rinse Sunday.
I found more evidence today that my crossing block of 2022 and now 2023 worked where I included two segregates of the promiscuous tomato project that I called The One and Little Pumpkins and my bicolor potato leaf antho lines Mission Mountain Sunrise and its daughter Mission Mountain Morning. I keep finding small splashes of anthocyanin on the 2023 regular leaf tomatoes descended from The One and or Little Pumpkins. I would expect that means it worked- just not in the direction intended.
I found one The One with the Little gold spots from Brad tonight.
Sadly color variation wise it seems to have diversified into red as well as bicolor and orangish. Flavor hasn't been great yet as sampled in 2023. Direct seeding it may be pushing it earlier and sort of amplifying hybrids with earlier lines like the Mission Mountain tomatoes. Still an unproductive late group comparatively.
I think what I will do is plant these seeds next year and if potato leaf segregates emerge that will confirm the cross is at F2. If not I may have to wait for my 2023 cross to get to F2. Though if these are, some of them may be even more promising for better flavor. A little more of this good flavor diversity wouldn't hurt to improve the chances of improving the flavor of the Mission Mountain lines.
Late Blight Breeding
MMM x LB PH5 Pimp
MMM x Purple Zebra F1
MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp) which may make recovering potato leaf blue exserted bicolor easier.
(MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375)
Sunviva x MMMF3
(MMM X Purple Zebra) X (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
MMR Dwarf No Blue x (MMM X PH5 LB Pimp)
Amethyst Cream x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1)
Galahad F1 x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1)
Utah Heart x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
Utah Heart x (MMR Dwarf)
(MMM x Purple zebra) x (mmm x galapagense x)
Brown Rugose Tolerance Breeding:
MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375)
Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM x LA1375)
Ida Gold x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x (MMM x LA1375)
Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Wilford x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Bison x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
MMS x (MMM x LA1375)
MMM x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x LA1375) x (MMM x galapagense X)
New Crosses picked tonight:
Fuzzy x (RL MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
Payette x (MMM x Galapagense X)
Fuzzy X Fruity
I am still waiting for the following six crosses to ripen:
EO x LA2329
Mr. Stripey x (MMM x PZ)
Payette x (MMM x LA1375)
EO x (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329))
EO x MMR dwarf (possible repeat?)
Hoosier Rose x (MMM x LA1375)
I haven't made a new cross in some time so these have had quite awhile to develop (last crosses made August fifth 43 days ago). If a frost threatens I may clip them off if there is time. Sometimes early frosts are light and don't damage the fruit so I may get these in even if the leaves die. Still haven't seen a frost in the forecast. However a colder weather system with lower temperatures is moving in Monday and will slow things.
I saw somewhere that someone fairly north would pick promising branches of tomato plants with close to ripening fruits. They'd cut the branch off and pot it, to bring them inside on windowsills to ripen. To get that last bunch of tomatoes with frost threatening.
Breeding more short season blue tomatoes is one of my goals:
Bluest Crosses of 2022 and 2023- blue from both sides and often one or both sides very stable:
F2 Seed Saved
Dwarf Mocha's Treat x MMS
I think this cross has the potential to make a potato leaf dwarf blue bicolor in 2024.
MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape
I think this cross has tremendous color potential for 2024. Green, Red, Bicolor, tricolor, stripes!
New F1's made
ET x MMM
Has the potential for stripes and potato leaf. Maybe better exsertion of the stigma.
Amethyst Cream x MMM
New color- pale yellow, almost white and it has blue from both parents.
(MMM X Purple Zebra) X (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
High potential for stripes, should segregate almost like an F2.
Yellow Tiger x (MMM X Brad's Atomic Grape)
High potential for stripes.
Muddy Waters x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
High potential for stripes, green when ripe, amazing flavor from Muddy Waters.
Exserted Tiger x (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
High potential for stripes and maybe better exsertion.
(Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x MMM) X (non-dwarf F2 MMM x Aztek)
May segregate for dwarf in F1
Dwarf MMR x (MMM X BAG)
Will have some fun potential colors and may end up with dwarfs.
Amethyst Cream x (MMM X PZ)
Fun new color plus low potential for stripes.
2023 Montana Tomato Project Breeding Summary
I made 74 new crosses in 2023 and my total tally of crosses stands at 96 for the seven years I have been breeding tomatoes.
It would be a very long list indeed if I simply went through all of the crosses. So I will talk about the traits I am selecting for instead.
Local Adaptation: In 2023 I crossed in a fairly large number of tomatoes originally bred in Montana and neighboring states and provinces. Some of which I had been previously unaware of. My own Montana bred tomatoes are themselves all pretty well adapted to conditions here, but connecting more to this deeper history of tomato breeding in Montana and regionally was important to me.
Shortness of Season- In 2022 I crossed with the shortest season tomato I know, Sweet Cherriette at 35 DTM from transplant and in 2023 I grew out that cross and made some crosses with it. Conceptually this is closely linked to local adaptation. I think for shortness of season it is a good idea to direct seed tomatoes and have been doing this with a portion of my tomatoes every year since 2017.
Anthocyanin: I started my projects with anthocyanin skinned tomatoes. So it is a fairly common set of traits in my garden. In 2022 and 2023 I made some Anthocyanin to Anthocyanin crosses creating new lines that we won't have to wait for the anthocyanin traits to segregate in. In 2022 Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x MMS, MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape, and a cross or two with Amethyst Cream in 2023. That is a lot of fun. I also created many lines where the traits may be very diluted but may occasionally still segregate out.
Exserted Stigmas: With many of my 2023 crosses I may have over-diluted this trait. However, I robustly crossed back in Exserted Tiger and Exserted Orange which should result in a sub-set of crosses that are much more likely to have this trait in the F1 and F2.
Late Blight Resistance: In 2022 I crossed in a Solanum pimpinillifolium strain that was identified as the likely source of PH5 late blight. I also crossed in Purple Zebra F1 in 2022. Then in 2023 I made a cross with Galahad F1 and a cross with Sunviva. I also made many crosses with the two 2022 crosses. While these crosses are in early generations I think it is a good idea to send them out to folks who need these traits in their gardens for selection.
Brown Rugose Fruit Virus Tolerance: In 2022 I made a cross with a strain of Solanum pimpinillifolium LA1375 that is supposed to have some tolerance to the brown rugose fruit virus. I made subsequent crosses with those crosses in 2023.
General disease resistance: Purple Zebra F1 and Galahad F1 also have resistances to other diseases. Mark Reed's tomatoes grow in an environment where they need some disease resistances. So I made some crosses with three of the tomatoes Mark has found to do well in his garden in 2023.
Fruitiness and good flavor: 2022 I spent quite a bit of effort exploring tomato flavor. I also managed to make ~2 crosses with dwarf Gloria's Treat which had amazing flavor- in 2023 those should segregate!. Further I made a cross in 2023 to Tom Wagner's Muddy Waters. I also managed to make some 2023 crosses with Tim Peter's "Fruity Mix" from Tien Chiu. Sunviva is also supposed to be fruity. Then of course I grew out my fruity find from Joseph's promiscuous project. A decent subset of it seems to have some light anthocyanin now and it seems to have segregated into about half a dozen different tomatoes. My favorites from the 2023 descendants of my fruity selection of the promiscuous project are a blue-orange cherry tomato and a blue-orange tomato though they also come in yellow which might be interesting. I also have an even better blue-orange cherry from the promiscuous mix I grew in 2023- which included the fruity lines. I also made one deliberate cross between The One x Mission Mountain. Though the blue ones are also likely this cross but a generation ahead. Also another mention is that my cross with the micro dwarf Aztek has led to some nice bright yellow lines which seem tasty and diversify from my usual bicolors. So some significant developments on the flavor front.
Arthropod Resistance: I continued crossing with LA2329. I grew out 2022 crosses but with a notably partial success. I started with many seeds of MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329) only five germinated, and of those five only one produced seed. Though two contributed pollen to subsequent crosses. This means that in the ¼ dilution it is simply unlikely that the arthropod resistance would have carried over. I grew out F1 and F2 crosses of Promiscuous x LA2329. I also grew out F1 crosses of Big Hill x LA2329 and MMM x LA2329 but made the mistake of isolating these latter ones and they produced no fruit. Likely they would have grown with the promiscuous x LA2329 as that probably resulted from self-incompatibility. I did make at least one cross with those as the pollen parent though. I made new crosses of Exserted Tiger x LA2329 and Exserted Orange x LA2329. I also made some 1/8th dilution crosses. I failed to save any LA2329 seed grown in 2023. The greenhouse plants produced none and it is possible that any produced by the field grown plants got mixed with Promiscuous x LA2329 seed though it is also possible that any such seed could be contaminated with back crosses as could all my LA2329 seed at this point.
OSSI: most of my tomatoes are descended now from Joseph Lofthouses Big Hill HX-9. A select few are descended from Dwarf Gloria's Treat, Dwarf Mocha's Cherry, and I made a new cross with Dwarf Eagle Smiley.
Sending Seed Out into the World: Mission Mountain Sunrise, collaborative Exserted Orange, and Exserted Tiger have previously been shared through Snake River Seeds and with EO also Experimental Farm Network. In 2023 I sent out my grow-out of Joseph Lofthouse's Promiscuous Tomato Project to the Going to Seed organization. This does seem to include some anthocyanin skin so possibly some crosses did occur in my garden- which is somewhat to be expected with promiscuous tomatoes. Then I have sent out a 2023 Mission Mountain Grex to Experimental Farm Network in the hope that it will appear in their 2024 catalogs. EFN seems to have some ability to ship internationally. I shall likely also continue to send out seed packages to select close collaborators within the US.
I have just sorted out four seeds each of:
Nodak Early- a new to me dwarf released in 1990 by NDSU and Dr. Boe.
Sandpoint x (MMM X Sweet Cherriette)
Payette x (MMM x LA1375)
Payette x (MMM x galapagense x)
Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
Goal is to plant them and make crosses and get some early F2 seed, hopefully in time for a 2024 F2 grow out to recover dwarfs.
Edit: got them planted. 20 seeds.
William, with regard to disease resistance breeding I've been thinking about how easily disease resistance can be lost or diminished when segregating without a strong selection pressure. In general that is.
And what strategies could be used to hedge against losing useful traits.
I hope you're saving a good stash of that LA 1375 seeds and other accessions that are stable for resistant traits, because you might need to pop out that parent for a backcross at the point where disease pressure does turn up.
Good luck with your winter grow!
One thought is to do a proper grow out of LA1375 every so often. I honestly haven't yet. Just a small sub sample then some crosses with it. I have shared some seed with the world but just as part of a larger grex that EFN should have on offer in a few more days on the ninth. In 2024 I might share a grex that is entirely of LA1375 descent. Then maybe someone who needs it now will be able to grow those crosses and report back as to if it was useful.
I am definitely hoping to share seed with other seed savers rather than entirely rely on my own seed stash. Though my seed stash is a part of my larger strategy. Which I think philosophically might be something like: Developing resilient tomato germplasm for the region centered on Montana. If that also helps develop resilient tomatoes for folks much farther away that is great too! What is that old saying: think globally, act locally?
LA1375 as a Peruvian accession of SP may have a lot more to offer for resiliency than just tolerance to tomato brown rugose fruit virus.
The accumulated germplasm strikes me as a serious responsibility. So I am eager to share it, especially in exciting forms.
Though there is just such a vast wealth of tomato germplasm. I hope lots of other tomato breeders find bits of it to grow and make crosses with.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-06, 06:48:35 PMThe accumulated germplasm strikes me as a serious responsibility. So I am eager to share it, especially in exciting forms.
What are the rules for sharing TGRC material? Is it that we can share or sell anything we cross with it, but for the pure lines, we must only give it away not sell it, and the receiver must sign a seed transfer agreement printed (or digitally) from the TGRC website? And in which case the TGRC need not actually get a copy of that, but in principle it should be signed?
Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2024-01-07, 09:06:05 AMWhat are the rules for sharing TGRC material? Is it that we can share or sell anything we cross with it, but for the pure lines, we must only give it away not sell it, and the receiver must sign a seed transfer agreement printed (or digitally) from the TGRC website? And in which case the TGRC need not actually get a copy of that, but in principle it should be signed?
That is pretty much how I interpret them but I will take an email saying a person agrees to the TGRC MTA. I don't think an actual signature is required just some kind of acknowledgement of the MTA. I only send seed to collaborators in the USA though.
I intend to make crosses with all the accessions I've got and share the resulting breeders grexes.
Towards that end I just created a project over on EFN:
https://www.experimentalfarmnetwork.org/project/41
I would like to create another project as well- a broader one beyond the scope of this bioregional thread.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-07, 09:31:23 AMI intend to make crosses with all the accessions I've got and share the resulting breeders grexes.
I have also made some within-species crosses, in case these would free up some opportunities for breeders, or in general making them saleable which might thereby make them more sustainable since it's hard for people to keep populations if they can't sell the seeds and have to give them away. And they might prove also more useful as evolutionary populations, giving perhaps more opportunity for people to adapt pure wild species to their environment, which itself could potentially be a useful step for breeding. For example, rather than having to delve into specific peruvianum accessions, it might be easier for some people to use populations already somewhat adapted to their regional conditions.
Also for Galapagense I have made some seeds that are 75% gal., thinking that breeding some wild species that are mostly pure, but in this case for example being free from short day limitations, might prove useful. Hard otherwise for folk to breed with gal. It might even be useful to breed higher than 75% but selecting for day neutral.
Mine aren't within species crosses. I don't think I would be 100% confident the cross was successful. I think I would rather have a high percentage back cross. Then I can breed in OSSI descent and some of the already useful local genetics from the regional breeding programs of Idaho, North Dakota, and Alberta universities.
I think back crossing a higher percentage Solanum galapagense hybrid makes really good sense. Salt tolerance is supposed to be multi gene so would be good to have an unbroken version and that is a pathway towards that goal!
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-07, 09:39:44 AMI don't think I would be 100% confident the cross was successful.
Oh just on this point - if it's an SC species, so long as the first cross with lyc is to the wild female (assuming you want the wild cytoplasm), this should not be an issue, since the F1 would be obvious, then you can pollinate that F1 with the wild species again - either the cross is successful and and the wild percentage increases, or it fails (e.g. selfs) and doesn't. But it could not be confused with the pure wild so long as the seeds are properly tracked.
https://store.experimentalfarmnetwork.org/collections/new-for-2024/products/mission-mountain-tomato-grex
Variety description for Mission Mountain Grex:
All tomatoes in this grex are descended from OSSI pledged tomatoes, and I consider the project to be one where you: the end user of these seeds and I are working towards breeding more open source tomatoes together. I hope you take this variable and still segregating population and find something in it that does well in your garden. Then save seeds, name your new variety, and hopefully eventually repledge it to the Open Source Seed Initiative
This grex of tomatoes is one I have made in the last few years working towards some new Montana bred tomato varieties. It contains seed for what will be F2, F3, and F4 seedlings. Ancestors of this mix include Joseph Lofthouse's Open Source Seed Initiative (OSSI) pledged Big Hill (HX-9), OSSI pledged Dwarf Mocha's Cherry, and OSSI pledged Dwarf Gloria's Treat. I also included as ancestors for disease resistance two accessions of the current tomato Solanum pimpinellifolium LA1375 PI365967 an accession known for tolerance to brown rugose fruit virus, and PI 270443 which may be the source material for PH5 late blight resistance. I used Purple Zebra F1, a remarkable modern hybrid, bred for looks and heirloom flavor by artisanal breeder Mark Mccaslin as another parent that may confer some resistances to a small portion of its offspring. I made a cross with a Solanum galapagense hybrid that showed up in my 2022 garden for another ancestor. Other ancestors include Mission Mountain Sunrise, a tomato Joseph Lofthouse calls Brad, Sweet Cherriette, microdwarf Aztek, Brad Gate's Blue Gold, Brad Gate's Brad's Atomic Grape, as well as some unknown pollen donors. This mix is largely composed of F2 seed that will segregate in spectacular fashion. Reds, yellows, orange, green when ripe, bicolors, blue skin, potato leaf, regular leaf, and stripes are all possibilities. A small portion of the population may have elongated styles that stick out from the pollen cone facilitating higher rates of natural outcrossing and it is possible that additional crosses could have occurred in 2023.
Specific Crosses include:
Mission Mountain Morning is a cross between Mission Mountain Sunrise and Big Hill (HX-9), the only F4 seed in the mix. Mission Mountain Sunrise is Brad x Blue Gold
Mission Mountain Morning x Aztek now in the F3
Mission Mountain Morning x LA1375
Mission Mountain Morning x PI270443
Dwarf Gloria's Treat x LA1375
Dwarf Glorias Treat x Unknown Regular Leaf Blue Bicolor Beefsteak
Mission Mountain Morning best stigma exsertion in F2 x Unknown fathers
Mission Mountain Morning x Sweet Cherriette now in the F3
Mission Mountain Morning x Brad's Atomic Grape
Mission Mountain Morning x (Solanum galapagense x unknown domestic)
Mission Mountain Morning x Purple Zebra F1
Dwarf Mocha's Treat x Mission Mountain Sunrise
Note: if not otherwise mentioned, they are F2 seeds.
Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2024-01-13, 05:51:51 AMI don't mean in general but mainly for this topic. If you look at the start of the topic, this topic is clearly not about interspecific hybrids.
I looked back to the first post and it doesn't make any mention of heirlooms, just "Open Pollinated cultivar" like you quoted, which is what I was referring to. And there's certainly been a lot of conversation of non-heirloom varieties on this topic, for example regarding modern dwarf tomato varieties.
When I think of 'interspecific hybrids' I think of tomatoes that have a relatively high percentage of wild species. They can still be OP cultivars. But even tomatoes not usually thought of as interspecific hybrids often have wild genetics, like Stupice for example, which I read is a mix of Mikado, Sláva Porýni, and Solanum pimpinellifolium.
In the context of this topic, I was actually thinking of the latter, tomatoes that people would think of as 'Solanum lycopersicum', but have some degree of wild introgression. Like for example any of the popular OP tomatoes that have some anthocyanin in the skin, or having late blight resistance (which is one of the things that made Stupice popular, and any of the tomatoes using PH genes also), or various other forms of disease resistance that give so many non-heirloom OP tomatoes advantages. It would seem to me to be in line with the first post to be using such tomatoes. And it would seem potentially highly advantageous. So I don't see the point of deliberately excluding the last 50 or more years of tomato breeding by restricting it to only heirlooms, that's all I'm saying.
Looking back at the first page, Andrew seems to be making a similar point:
I'm not saying don't use heirlooms. I was just questioning why. Especially in reference to low statistical chance of F1 improvement over F0 in the paper shared, and how that might differ if one is open to the wider genepool of the post-heirloom domestic tomatoes.
I was just thinking the other day that I should really cross Stupice into the Montana Tomato Project because of its vast popularity here in MT and all the way west from here. Carol Deppe who gardens in Corvallis Oregon mentions the variety several times in her The Tao of Vegetable Gardening Cultivating Tomatoes Greens Peas Beans Squash Joy and Serenity. I think she considers it an heirloom. Actually I think even Craig LeHoullier gives Solanum pimpinellifolium a pass when it comes to heirloom status. Though it might technically be "early modern"
Why has Stupice from the Czech Republic outcompeted the amazing University bred tomatoes from Idaho and North Dakota? Both contain some S. pimpinellifolium genetics. It would be better to breed a popular tomato than an unpopular but what makes one popular and another obscure?
Actually I think some of those Idaho and North Dakota tomatoes did have their times of popularity. I read somewhere recently that one of them was the top tomato in Costa Rica for a decade and then forgot where I found the fun fact. Also some forum members have found some of the Idaho bred tomatoes useful in far off places like Britain!
There are also some different definitions of Heirloom. I think Craig might have the most strict a historical cutoff as introgression breeding picked up. Which happened quite awhile ago with regional tomatoes like Farthest North, Owyhee, and Payette picking up pimpinellifolium, peruvianum, and habrochaites introgressions all over fifty years ago. Fifty years is another definition a rolling cutoff. Then in the public usage any stable variety can go into the heirloom section. So people falsely label all of Brad Gates and Tom Wagners tomatoes as heirloom because its come to be associated and synonymous with non-commercial types. I also think the commercial tomato industry has developed some tomatoes to be passed off in grocery stores as that!
Also to my earlier pondering on popularity vs. Obscurity. Victory Seeds one week sale of unpopular varieties had both some important older varieties like Tom Wagner's Lime Green Salad and some of the new dwarf tomato varieties including I think Banana Toes which I bought and tried and rather decided not to use in breeding. I was thinking those unpopular varieties might have statistical predictive value as to what makes a variety popular or unpopular? Honestly it could in part just be the name! A name can be off putting or it can be inspiring. Number names or number letter names like the obscure variety 033 probably doom a variety to obscurity. The old practice of renaming probably used to help with that by reducing naming bias of single named for single varieties but I would rather breed another unique variety and try again! Then yield, flavor, and fruit traits probably help. Classic red is likely highly preferred and most popular for most people. Good flavor likely helps. Non-cracking, ease of processing. Fruit size is important. Productivity is important. Disease resistance.
I was going through OSSI tomatoes wondering if we had captured the range of morphological diversity in fruit with them and I saw gaps. Very little ribbing. Didn't notice any pear shaped ones. Those more obscure fruit shape traits lile ribbing likely decrease popularity just as they did in the days of Livingston because they cause more difficulty with processing. Some popularity might be inadvertent. If I set out to breed a popular tomato it might by chance become obscure and an tomato I thought irrelevant might go on to become popular?!
Mission Mountain Sunrise one of my first tomatoes is sitting at F7 in an envelope in my seed sorter. Its first offspring Mission Mountain Morning is sitting at F4. I suspect MMS to be not at all useful for disease resistance. MMM not much better in that regard and is mainly just potentially larger and perhaps exserted an outcross to Big Hill HX-9 which is OSSI pledged. However then I made lots of crosses with MMM and crosses with the crosses! Even a couple back crosses! From those there are now some crosses from which I might be able to recover disease resistance and earliness and the MMS or really Blue Gold type. A tomato which I might think should be popular? Though also given my sharings of unfinished work like the Mission Mountain Grex I just shared it is very likely that someone who grows out that grex in an area with disease pressures will be the one, not I, to develop from it a tomato that can handle such things! An east coast tomato or a Midwest tomato or a west coast tomato or a British tomato- somewhere with more humidity and higher disease pressure. Montana might be fine with MMS. New Jersey? Doubtful!
Circling back to Stupice. Does it's local and widespread popularity and perhaps also Carol Deppe's high esteem for it for several reasons including earliness and flavor make it a good choice for a cross? It's pimpinellifolium content? I believe it is potato leaved which makes the crosses obvious and is always a plus.
Triple Divide our only MT vegetable seed company sells it: https://tripledivideseeds.com/product/stupice-organic-tomato-seed/
Do those factors and considerations push it high enough up my grow list? Or my list for my best crossing space in the greenhouse or the backyard bed? Hmm I think I might grow it out- out on the garden land. I did make more crosses there than ever before last year but it isn't my best crossing space. So I guess crossing with Stupice is a middle priority- moving up from a low priority. A very practical cross but not the most exciting personally!
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-13, 06:56:17 AMI was just thinking the other day that I should really cross Stupice into the Montana Tomato Project because of its vast popularity here in MT and all the way west from here. Carol Deppe who gardens in Corvallis Oregon mentions the variety several times in her The Tao of Vegetable Gardening Cultivating Tomatoes Greens Peas Beans Squash Joy and Serenity. I think she considers it an heirloom. Actually I think even Craig LeHoullier gives Solanum pimpinellifolium a pass when it comes to heirloom status. Though it might technically be "early modern"
I thought 'heirloom' was more about the age rather than what introgressions, no? From what I understand Stupice was bred in the 1940's and released in the 1950's. So it makes sense many would consider it an heirloom. I guess it might depend if going by the 'at least 50 years old' definition, or the 1951 cut-off point or 100 years etc. But yes, either way there must be various heirlooms derived from interspecific crosses with pimp, or some per and hab depending on the date one chooses, but seems much more utilisation of wild genes since then.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-13, 06:56:17 AMWhy has Stupice from the Czech Republic outcompeted the amazing University bred tomatoes from Idaho and North Dakota? Both contain some S. pimpinellifolium genetics. It would be better to breed a popular tomato than an unpopular but what makes one popular and another obscure?
Could it be due to superior taste? Or superior name recognition? Or, due to more focus on capitalist traits in the more recent ones, such as harder fruit and longer shelf life, that might be better for profits but worse for the consumer?
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-13, 06:56:17 AMThere are also some different definitions of Heirloom. [...] Fifty years is another definition a rolling cutoff.
Yes. That's why I wrote "excluding the last 50 or more years". I don't know what the most usual date is but have assumed it's maybe 1951 cut off? But I know usage varies so I tried to cover the general concept by saying that.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-13, 06:56:17 AMBanana Toes which I bought and tried and rather decided not to use in breeding. I was thinking those unpopular varieties might have statistical predictive value as to what makes a variety popular or unpopular? Honestly it could in part just be the name! A name can be off putting or it can be inspiring.
Hmm, good point! Perhaps many people don't want to be thinking about toes when eating fresh food.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-13, 06:56:17 AMClassic red is likely highly preferred and most popular.
That makes sense although, if the red tomato market is saturated, it might be easier to penetrate into the non-plain-red market?
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-13, 06:56:17 AMI was going through OSSI tomatoes wondering if we had captured the range of morphological diversity in fruit with them and I saw gaps. Very little ribbing. Didn't notice any pear shaped ones. Those traits likely decrease popularity just as they did in the days of Livingston because they cause more difficulty with processing.
Just to share my subjective experience - before I ever grew tomatoes, I would avoid ribbed tomatoes because I don't really like tomato skin. For the same reason I avoided cherry tomatoes. I always wanted to be eating a maximum flesh:skin ratio, basically. Both for fresh eating and for cooking. Perhaps that has something to do with it for some other people too. But then, if there is a relative lack of the ribbed ones, that might be an easier niche to enter also.
https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-015-1444-1
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41438-020-0291-7
Two articles recently caught my attention. The first shows that South American red tomato diversity particularly in Ecuador and Peru is of remarkable importance. The second is an experimental course of action creating a very interesting research population of tomatoes to better understand that diversity.
The course of action this suggests to me is to make some more crosses with tomatoes from South America. I was able to order a few more recently from Seed Saver's Exchange- the actual exchange not the catalog. I think, once those arrive safely, I will have a total of nine red groups (pimp, gal, che, lyc) South American tomatoes both wild and domestic with which to make crosses.
I think that based on these articles that South American red group tomatoes, particularly the domestic heirlooms, are an underutilized and straightforwardly easy way to improve the resiliency of tomatoes. Though this diversity is across accessions and not just within accessions as may be the case with some of the obligate outcrossing but difficult to work with species. So the more accessions used the better. In the second article they make crosses with 163 accessions. If I can make crosses with nine that might be enough for my effort and for my portion of the Montana Tomato Project to incorporate. However, a larger effort, perhaps OSSI wide in a new dwarf tomato project level effort could think about a larger goal such as making distinct crosses with 100 accessions or 163 or 200. If indigenous farmers and gardeners in the heart of tomato diversity and with disease pressures have been sustainably growing tomatoes for deep time in Ecuador and Peru this just makes sense to incorporate the same levels of genetic diversity as found there. OSSI wide that could mean something simple like pairing each existing OSSI variety with a different accession and making a cross, then developing a new variety from each cross focusing on morphological variation. This would double the number of OSSI varieties but more than double their genetic level distinctiveness.
For my own work I have something like 92 extant crosses, most of them of OSSI descent, but a much smaller subset are distinctive crosses either morphologically or genetically. There is some interesting morphological variation in the South American material and that can add something. However, I think for a variety to successfully add something to the tomato world, to be conserved by multiple seed savers, it has to have distinction. So most of my crosses likely represent either dead ends or intermediate steps requiring an additional cross to be useful for the development of a new variety.
I was explaining my basic philosophy of tomato breeding to someone the other day. I said basically there are three things I need to combine. A short season tomato already well adapted to Montana, a tomato that is amazing for its fanciness like say Brad Gate's Atomic Grape or Tom Wagner's Muddy Waters, and a tomato that contributes some important diversity at the genetic level like Galahad F1 or Purple Zebra F1. These South American tomatoes come in as an alternative and perhaps more resilient approach for the latter. Potentially more resilient because this approach, instead of broadly incorporating the same genetics to make tomatoes more modern, incorporates more genetic diversity across new varieties which means the same pathogen can't adapt if there are multiple different resistances represented by that deeper diversity. It is a novel approach- save heirloom tomato genetics by incorporating the heirloom diversity from Ecuador and Peru instead of by incorporating the modernization introgressions already widely used commercially. Though I will also mix methods and let segregation happen.
So one of the highest priorities in 2024 for my high value growing spaces in the greenhouse and backyard where I can most easily make crosses, will be growing out South American red tomato group accessions for crosses.
I got these from seed saver's exchange.
Tomato 1147 South American Large Round Accession 122549
Tomato 1962 PI 129129 (Panama) Accession 123363 (A little far North but maybe)
Tomato 2067 PI 118686 (Brazil) Accession 123468
Tomato 1148 South American Oval Accession 122550
Tomato 2065 PI 79532 (Peru) Accession 123466
Tomato 5658 PI 158171 (Venezuela) Accession 127037
Tomato 5659 PI 158164 (Venezuela) Accession 127038
Tomato 4852 Peruvian Bush Accession 126231
Tomato 4848 Oaxacan Pink Accession 126227 (Mexican but still interesting)
Tomato 2070 PI 128445 (Argentina) Accession 123471
I also accidentally ordered the variety Perun a yellow pear type from the Czech Republic. Oops, it came up when I searched for Peru.
QuoteIf I set out to breed a popular tomato it might by chance become obscure and an tomato I thought irrelevant might go on to become popular?!
William this sounds like my experience in selling my hand made items. I can have 200 great items and 10 of that will be items that I really love and kind of want to keep for myself. Then I'll bring 10 items that are just sitting around and I think are ugly or something lacking. But bring them just because I have them.
Those last 10 items are just about guaranteed to sell! The more ugly I think it is, the more likely it is to be the first of my items to sell!
I just shake my head. No accounting for what's going to be in fashion or personal tastes haha.
Here are crosses that each have three things. A source of diversity or resistances, a source of morphological diversity, and a source of local adaptedness. I think that makes these the highest priority combinations and the remainder in need of additional crossing before I am satisfied with them, or potentially just discard some!?. Of these however, I count only about a dozen potentially distinct morphological groups. Part of me thinks that equates to just a dozen future varieties, but in truth, it could end up being more than that because of segregation for size and so forth.
Striped Potential from Purple Zebra
(MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Purple zebra) x (mmm x galapagense x)
MMM x Purple Zebra F1
Galahad F1 x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1)
Striped Tricolor potential from Brad's Atomic Grape
(MMM X Purple Zebra) X (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
Galapagense potential
(MMM x LA1375) x (MMM x galapagense X)
MMM x (Galapagense x Unknown)
Payette x (MMM x Galapagense X)
Improved MMM Potential
(MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x (MMM x LA1375)
Bison x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
MMM x (MMM x LA1375)
MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp)
MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375
MMM x LB PH5 Pimp
MMS x (MMM x LA1375)
Mr. Stripey x (MMM x PZ)
Payette x (MMM x LA1375)
The One! X MM
Wilford x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Hoosier Rose x (MMM x LA1375)
Amethyst Cream Potential
Amethyst Cream x (MMM X PZ)
Dwarf Eagle Smiley Potential
Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Dwarf Gloria's Treat Potential
Dwarf Gloria's Treat x Pimps
Paste Potential
Fisher's Earliest Paste x (MMM x LA1375)
Heat Tolerance Potential with potentially carrot leaves
Flamenco x (MMM x galapagense X)
Yellow Pointed Tomato potential
MMR Dwarf No Blue x (MMM X PH5 LB Pimp)
Yellow Cherry tomato potential
Sunviva x MMMF3
Ida Gold x (MMM x LA1375)
Excluding LA2329 Solanum habrochaites crosses for now, though I have some hope that something at least palatable will segregate out in 2024.
My packet from Experimental Farm Network came. Hummingbird F2. Probably cross it with some of my current crosses, Improved wild galapagos, will try to cross with it maybe it will be easier than LA1410 and of course is from Ecuador originally so adds genetic diversity. Puerto Cortes, not sure genetically if as exciting coming from central america not south but still an indigenous cherry tomato and will try to cross with it, and Cosmic Purple Rain which I reckon will add some fancy to a cross.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-05, 02:53:11 PMI have just sorted out four seeds each of:
Nodak Early- a new to me dwarf released in 1990 by NDSU and Dr. Boe.
Sandpoint x (MMM X Sweet Cherriette)
Payette x (MMM x LA1375)
Payette x (MMM x galapagense x)
Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
Goal is to plant them and make crosses and get some early F2 seed, hopefully in time for a 2024 F2 grow out to recover dwarfs.
Edit: got them planted. 20 seeds.
After three weeks, the house warmed up and they are finally germinating. I count six so far, everything but the Nodak Early.
Hummingbird F2 sounds like an exciting choice. I thought I had my tomato seeds for 2024, but apparently I'm not done yet. :-)
https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/1165103330/exserted-tiger-tomato-directly-from
My wife reopened her Etsy shop, it has ET, EO, and HX-9 should anyone still need them.
New generations of EO, MMS, and ET have been grown for Snake River Seeds I notice!
https://snakeriverseeds.com/products/tomato-mission-mountain-sunrise?
I may have 95 new to me tomatoes to grow and make crosses with in 2024. Oops?
That sounds like plenty. I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed with less than 20.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-02-17, 09:49:24 AMI may have 95 new to me tomatoes to grow and make crosses with in 2024. Oops?
You might want to put some of those off to 2025. :-)
I always end up with more seed varieties than I can realistically grow.
The unstabilized varieties like Panamorous Wildling and Neandermato are the hardest, because it isn't useful to grow only one or two plants.
I grew 2/3 of a 4x4 ft bed if Wildling last year and still didn't have enough variety to find more than one plant worth retaining seed I'll need to do that with Neandermato this year.
Actually it is all crossing material and I only intend to grow one clump of each. 100 square feet of bed space may be adequate. I can't afford it much space even if some of it is segregating. The larger space needs to go to some of my own exciting segregating populations.
I would use Neandermato for crossing. It is a wild type Solanum habrochaites accession combined from about five accessions that adapted to Josephs growing conditions and freely crossed between each other. I would grow about 25 to 50 plants in a large clump so you can both seed save it and use it as a pollen parent. Very long term project working with habrochaites. Might be worthwhile to start with a tasty recent habrochaites cross as the domestic parent and then backcross to it.
Have you tried Lee Goodwin's "Wild child" it came through as a nice short season red with no off tastes for me?
My attempt at stabilizing "The One" out of Joseph's promiscuous project is very much to get a orange or bicolor hab cross with excellent flavor but last year it segregated wildly suggesting a cross maybe even in 2021 so an F2.
One thing I'm considering not growing out is a number of pure habrochaites strains including some new ones. Or if I do it would be a small subset of each to try to cross with and add to Neandermato. I see a lot of value to keeping the habrochaites strains separate so have been trying to focus on LA2329. However mixing them is also a way to allow them to adapt a bit to local conditions. LA2329 has likely shifted quite a bit for me and if it starts showing signs of having lost adequate alleles for the SI system I might be forced to combine it with one or more of the other habrochaites accessions I have.
https://tripledivideseeds.com/ I went to Tremper's Shopping Center Ace Hardware in Missoula Montana today. Found two packets of tomato seed from Triple Divide Seeds awesome seed racks there. No mention of these on their website but they are Pink Princess Cherry Tomato from OSSI https://osseeds.org/ossi_variety/pink-princess/ and a selection from it made at Fresh Roots Farm in Polson MT called Golden Princess Cherry Tomato. Interestingly Pink Princess is from the Honeydrop breeding project https://osseeds.org/ossi_variety/honeydrop/ also OSSI along with Anona's Sunset. The packets on both say they were grown by Fresh Roots Farm in Polson. Also that several of the TDS farms like Pink Princess. I find Triple Divide is a good filter for knowing what varieties do well here as they grow commercially so I trust their judgement. I think I did already have a packet of Honeydrop so this doesn't really represent new genetics. I'll use the same accession number on all three varieties in my spreadsheet #208. If Anona's Sunset ever comes my way it will also be accession #208 as would Sunsugar F1 which is the parent variety. I would say Golden Princess Cherry Tomato represents Montana Tomato Breeding! Tomato breeding can be as simple as that- finding some variation and naming it.
First bud has formed on a tomato plant that should be Sandpoint x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette). Goal here is to get a few F2 seeds to get back to dwarf. Put them and the other four kinds into gallon pots 3/3/24. Will see.
Got a packet of Northern Ruby Paste tomato from Triple Divide Seeds rack in a store. Also got Doublerich in a seed trade. I reckon that is 99 new to me varieties this winter. Though the princesses don't count because I already had Honeydrop but that's a technicality and would only bring things down to 97 anyway. Maybe I should pick up one more packet somewhere and make it an even 100.
Northern Ruby Paste was grown in MT for many years by Wild Plum Farm in Dixon MT (as was my packet) originally a Heinz variety but they decided to rename it after the long adaptation. That's what the packet says and seed saving to maintain a variety long enough under local conditions can lead to shifts. Maybe I will cross it into my new Paste tomato project I started last year with Fisher's Earliest Paste.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-03-02, 08:05:22 PMFirst bud has formed on a tomato plant that should be Sandpoint x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette). Goal here is to get a few F2 seeds to get back to dwarf. Put them and the other four kinds into gallon pots 3/3/24. Will see.
Self pollinated that first blossom this weekend. Looks like the server IP problems lost us a few posts.
Tiny tomatoes are forming on the first four selfed flowers to bloom of Sandpoint x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette). A single flower has formed on Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette). All four of the Payette and Sandpoint crosses are getting quite large. Nodak Early is staying quite compact so far. Flowering is quite minimal.
I need to start some Solanum habrochaites LA2329 as it takes a bit longer. I just plan a single clump of it using 10 seeds. Maybe I should also start the new F1's with LA2329 early as well. The eight week mark to the average last date of frost is here and past by a few days. I plan to plant most of my transplants at the six week mark in a couple of weeks. I also plan to direct seed quite a bit of my favorite crosses from 2023 and 2022. Those with wild + local + fancy. Sorting through my inventory spreadsheet I may have things down to a reasonable 218 accessions I want to plant out mostly as clumps of four taking up a single cell each. One set of 20 accessions will get about half of the transplant space.
My wife is already heating the greenhouse but I don't trust it this early not to fail and freeze tomatoes. I might put a few sacrificial tomato seeds out there to see what happens though. Maybe of accessions I wouldn't otherwise start as transplants or at all.
The early greenhouse sounds like a good way to do selection for cold tolerance at seed/seedling stage. You could plant a few seeds each of a to large numbers of varieties and see what survives.
This could also help you select genetics better adapted to direct seeding.
Plants that can't tolerate a true frost still might have additional tolerance to near-frost conditions in a semi-protected greenhouse environment.
Perhaps I should plant a little of Joseph's R18 out there. It performed remarkably well at the end of the growing season last year being the last of the Lofthouse promiscuous project tomatoes to succumb to frost and it did ok under direct seeding.
I haven't done this in years, but in 2017 I was able to direct seed a wide diversity of short season tomatoes in a bed on one foot centers with little markers. It worked well. I actually started about now but regretted it because I ended up weeding three times before germination. I think optimum is about 10 to 20 days before average last frost here.
Payette x Dwarf MMR is one cross I made in 2023 that I am expecting to have very uncertain results. Payette mysteriously picked up the rugose dwarf trait perhaps as a side effect of interspecies hybridization. It might even be associated somehow with the trait thought to be introgressed from the wild that confers curly top virus resistance. Though that is uncertain and unknown. Dwarf MMR is a rugose dwarf from MMM x Aztek with the latter a micro dwarf, I didn't grow enough plants to get the extra micro size back. MMS another ancestor seems to be genetically small as is fairly common in short season tomatoes.
So it will be interesting to see the F1 and the F2 (assuming the F1 isn't deleterious) from this cross with rugose dwarf from two distinct sources.
I haven't tried Wild Child. Maybe in a year or two when I have narrowed down the number of tomato lines I want to pursue.
I'm hoping this year will be less wet and prone to flooding, though those conditions help to identify disease resistance.
I'm planning to grow a few MMM/MMR crosses this year, despite the disease problems seen with it last year. It may help me identify the disease(s) I am dealing with, and may also have crossing potential with something more disease resistant.
But only 2-3 plants, as it's not one of the most promising lines for my conditions.
I have options with better potential now. I would say that MMS, MMM, and MMR are all obsolete in my project now I made so many crosses with them.
I am hoping to develop a lot of high potential crosses in my garden this year, some of which may be useful in your Montana garden too.
I hope I can successfully cross in 2024 and grow out in 2025 a meaningful sample of Krainy Sever X Dwarf Eagle Smiley, Krainy Sever x Sungold F1, Dwarf Eagle Smiley x Sungold F1, Alaska x Krainy Sever, and Alaska x Dwarf Eagle Smiley.
If you attempt any of these crosses in Montana, please let me know if they take! Since I am a beginner at tomato pollination, I expect to have to make many attempts for each success.
Quote from: Cathy A on 2024-03-27, 08:08:18 PMI am hoping to develop a lot of high potential crosses in my garden this year, some of which may be useful in your Montana garden too.
I hope I can successfully cross in 2024 and grow out in 2025 a meaningful sample of Krainy Sever X Dwarf Eagle Smiley, Krainy Sever x Sungold F1, Dwarf Eagle Smiley x Sungold F1, Alaska x Krainy Sever, and Alaska x Dwarf Eagle Smiley.
If you attempt any of these crosses in Montana, please let me know if they take! Since I am a beginner at tomato pollination, I expect to have to make many attempts for each success.
Every single one of those crosses would make perfect sense here as well! However, going over my mental list of what I am actually growing out: I've been deprioritizing varieties that already have some ancestry in my garden. So since I managed crosses with Krainy Sever and Dwarf Eagle Smiley in 2023 and Sungold was an ancestor of Exserted Tiger I likely won't grow those three out in 2024! I haven't tried Alaska. So the closest I could come would be crosses like:
(Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)) x (Exserted Tiger x (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape))
(Krainiy Sever x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf) x (Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375))
"(Krainiy Sever x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)"
I may attempt that one as well if all goes well.
Hopefully I will succeed with at least some of my proposed crosses, and have some seed to share once the F2s start to segregate.
Incidentally, William, is there a particular reason you attempt crosses like (Krainiy Sever x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)) instead of MMM x Aztek --> grow out F1 --> segregate F2 --> Krainiy Sever x (F2)?
Is it just an attempt to speed the process along, to throw stuff against a wall and see what sticks? Or is there a particular reason why you are crossing an F1 with the OP right away?
Quote from: Cathy A on 2024-03-28, 05:48:46 AM"(Krainiy Sever x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)"
I may attempt that one as well if all goes well.
Hopefully I will succeed with at least some of my proposed crosses, and have some seed to share once the F2s start to segregate.
That is one of my F1s from 2023. So I should have F2 seed to share at the end of the season but that one won't be allowed to segregate into a final product for me and I wont share it with a seed company. It needs a wild or south American heirloom cross to meet my standards so I'll outcross it.
Quote from: Cathy A on 2024-03-28, 05:51:50 AMIncidentally, William, is there a particular reason you attempt crosses like (Krainiy Sever x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)) instead of MMM x Aztek --> grow out F1 --> segregate F2 --> Krainiy Sever x (F2)?
Is it just an attempt to speed the process along, to throw stuff against a wall and see what sticks? Or is there a particular reason why you are crossing an F1 with the OP right away?
I think I was anxious last summer and needed something to do. Logically I am very happy with all the crosses that contained wild species and kicking myself a bit for all the domestic x domestic crosses from last summer (2/3 of them!). It has created sort of the need for me to go down the row of those F1s and cross all of them to wild or wild crosses. Crossing is just the first step to plant breeding and helps generate new diversity to select from. Its not even the hard part according to some recent reading I've been doing! Though I don't grow new to me or established varieties of tomatoes for not making crosses with. I have wanted a cross with Krainy Sever since 2017 and MMM x Aztek was the closest tomato of mine with good pollen production that day.
With LA1375 I was really hoping to spread its brown rugose fruit virus tolerance into as many lines as possible last year to try and give that protection to the tomatoes I like! This year I have more tolerant and resistant accessions for that pathogen to make crosses with. I still need to make a lot of crosses for that sub-project. I may use them to sort of go down the row of 2024 grow outs of the crosses I made last year and make new wild crosses. That gets the rugose tolerance and resistance spread around and some South American current tomato genetics spread around in the process. The South American red genetics are not such a heavy lift so I think of it as sort of my "easy" side project.
I am interested in wild crosses, but it's a much lower priority for me.
My goals will be better met by crossing the best (for my garden) domestics, selecting carefully to get a stable, reliable food producer, and then cross THAT with wild plants (such as Neandermato) to begin Phase II.
I'm going to be very interested to try tienchiu's fuzzy mix and cross that with my best domestic lines. I'm hoping it will provide some deterrent against insects.
Tim Peter's Fuzzy mix which Tien Chiu so carefully preserved is interesting. I wish that he still had and could share its precise parentage. I'm going to treat it as if it were a domestic, but it very possibly could have high percentage wild genetics as he did a lot of work with wild species though he also worked with dehybridization of modern hybrids, also crosses with modern hybrids, and basically the full scope of what can be done with tomatoes.
Edit: here is a thought, we can look for type IV trichomes on Fuzzy.
Started planting tomato seeds in earnest today. Planted 165 cells with 21 breeding lines from a collaborator. Have 35 cells still to fill in those same trays and will fill them with my own related breeding lines.
Plan to plant a few seeds out in the greenhouse including R18 tomorrow.
I just planted about 30 breeding lines in the greenhouse. I had F1 and F2 seed of both MMM x LA1375 and MMM x PI 270443 so I planted four seeds of both. I did plant the R18 but I mostly focused on the little boxes of seeds for late blight, brown rugose fruit virus, and the galapagense x. There are other seeds that have some of those characteristics but they got sorted into other boxes. The most precious seed I planted was four out of the eight seeds of Sunviva x MMM. Since I only got eight seeds from that cross. Takes some of the pressure off of planting under the grow lights but also this was actually some of the most important stuff and some i should likely double plant. I can't plant anymore today because that is all I brought with.
One curious possibility that I kept thinking about while planting was that some of the crosses like MMM x LA1375 x MMM x PI 270443 should segregate to potato leaf and thus make great cross mothers. Plenty of seed too so I could plant a salad clamshell with them and then sort out the potato leaves. If I can find space.
Planted a 40 cell tray with new mostly wild or wild cross germplasm. Should be fun. It is six weeks to average last frost today so I need to accelerate my tomato seed planting.
Planted tomato seeds seriously today. Out in the greenhouse though. So they will sprout when it warms up enough. I've checked off an awful lot of what was on my to grow checklist. Planted what I brought with me to plant. I think I've got what I need. Going to plant one more flat with F2 Dwarf Gloria's Treat x currents and select out potato leaf dwarfs from that. Which will be likely a great choice for cross mothers in 2024. If I get a excellent flavor bicolor potato leaf dwarf tomato from that I reckon that would be stable enough to re-register with OSSI perhaps? Certainly stable enough to offer on its own as of OSSI descent.
This might free up a flat under the grow lights for MMM x LA1375 x MMM x PI 270443 though it is an F1 even though it will segregate like an F2 so there isn't that much seed.
Planted another little flat of tomato seeds tonight. I think I will call that good until it is time to start direct seeding- which may be around Friday the 26th. I got a few more of mine that are likely to segregate to potato leaves with MMM on both sides planted and a few more of Fred Hempel's and the Kapuler's work.
My wife got some more shop lights for our plant starting wire rack. Two per shelf now. Fancy. I'm going to need to transplant the first batch into larger pots soon.
Just a few germinated in the greenhouse so far. Very small cotyledons but the heater stopped working so I'm not sure what will happen. I do intend to pick up a new heater.
Got the two fenced gardens rototilled again today. Four more gardens needing rototilled.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-04-04, 09:34:30 PMPlanted a 40 cell tray with new mostly wild or wild cross germplasm. Should be fun. It is six weeks to average last frost today so I need to accelerate my tomato seed planting.
This tray has now germinated great. There was one cell empty but I think it is sprouting.
Hot today, lots more tomato seedlings germinating in the greenhouse. Very low nighttime Temps though in a few days.
Hot there too huh, 86 F here with bright sun and constant dry wind. I took the lid completely off the cold frame where my tomatoes are sprouting nicely and watered them all good.
74 F here
Some worrisome freezing temperatures coming Friday night 24 F. May need to being in tomatoes as the heater may not handle that.
We are still experiencing June, even some July like temperatures here. We hit 91 F one day, but mid 30s F are expected this weekend and again next week. I'm going to take my tomatoes out of the cold frame today and put them under a smaller frame, where it will be easy to just throw a blanket over them if necessary.
I need to get the big cold frame reconfigured to start sweet potato slips.
Transplanting tomorrow.
Planted out tomatoes all day. Still have small ones in the greenhouse.
Tomatoes appeared yesterday to have survived another week outside in Montana. Despite some worrying predicted lows.
We haven't anything close to frost, but it's been weirdly cool and cloudy for several days now. So much so that my tomatoes are getting leggy and wanting to fall over before getting tall enough to lean on the supports by themselves.
The whole month of June was like this last year, sweet potatoes especially did not like it. If seems really weird considering a month ago it was hot and dry.
My tomatoes are quite yellow from the rain and cold last week. Weather this coming week is a mix and includes another significant rain event.
I'm waiting till after the next rainstorm to plant my tomatoes out.
Direct seeded MMM x Brad's atomic grape today and planted out 7 flats yesterday. I have one partial flat left of plants that are too small.
I wanted to direct seed more crosses but the garden maintenance on anything more seemed too much.
The MMM x BAG is oddly to try to capture the phenotypic diversity in a short season form for future crosses. It is pretty much pure domestic so it doesn't meet my standards yet but to get there I should really get it to an interesting point for further crossing.
It sounds like some of you are struggling with a wet late spring much like what I saw last year.
This year has been much drier in New England, and the tomatoes are doing well after being transplanted out about a week before Memorial Day weekend.
William, you will be interested to hear that my first tomato flower formed on one of your MMR plants! Without the super-wet conditions of 2023, perhaps I will get less disease and better yield from the MMR in 2024 (along with the opportunity to cross them with other varieties).
I found a couple more dwarfs in some F3s I selected in the F2 for nice color on that MMR cross.
It's too soon to tell how many dwarfs will be in my MMR grow-out. You mentioned that 1/4 were expect to be dwarf, and I have about 5 plants, so there's a fair chance I will get at least one dwarf. If so, that's the one I will use for crossing.
You can ID the dwarves at early stages and just plant 4X as much seed and discard or give away the non-dwarfs. It does take a little practice though. I only got about four dwarfs sorted out last year before they got away on me and only one had good antho skin. Good thing there is also a good chance of finding them in the F3 and I did!
I think I did better at dwarf sorting this year. I have a little row of dwarfs again in the greenhouse for using as cross mothers. Most of them F2 or F3 from my own crosses and I believe three crosses are represented!
Caught some frost this week damage in all three gardens but also a lot of survivors and I expect many of the damaged plants to come back. Made a cross this afternoon in the greenhouse. MMR x (Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) not particularly excited about it, would rather have a high percentage wild parent in there somewhere but I had a few flowers to work with so I made a cross. Started weeding some, planted a few late ones. Bought a Glacier and a Sub Arctic Maxi at the farmers market in Missoula and got them planted.
Wish I could have finished a round of weeding this weekend. I made some progress though, hopefully enough!
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-06-02, 09:06:18 PMWish I could have finished a round of weeding this weekend. I made some progress though, hopefully enough!
More progress on weeding this weekend. I planted perhaps the last six transplants into big pots. I am using last year's promiscuous project garden to grow out a control named Zaofen 2 for the arthropod resistance project. So, there are quite a few volunteers and as I was weeding them out, I stopped and saved a handful and put them into one of the big pots.
First ripe tomatoes. Yaay F2 seed.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-06-14, 05:51:58 PMFirst ripe tomatoes. Yaay F2 seed.
Found 14 seeds in the two F2 Sandpoint x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) fruits. So I immediately planted them. Odds are that 3 or 4 of them should be dwarfs.
I think one of the Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) fruits is blushing red.
I made a few new crosses. One of last weekends looks to have taken. Trying to use exciting pollen donors this weekend. Still limited availability of flowers but many more than last week and improving rapidly.
Finished weeding the garden for the direct seeded orange blue segregate of The One. Lots of potato leaf tomatoes so probably is The One x MM
Whole tomato garden(s) has been weeded once. A few parts twice. The old fenced garden really needs weeded again- which I started. Blooming is picking up in the transplants.
Not much time in the garden this weekend. Native plant society trip yesterday and rain today. I did manage to make some crossing attempts this morning just in the greenhouse. I used (MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375) which is my number 303 as the father on as many plants and buds as possible. Trying to be more precise in my selection of mother flowers this year. No petal opening allowed. Though I'm sure some of these were likely too young which would be fine if could redip for three days, but I generally have to work. I just started using numbers on the pollination tags. I've had everything numbered but the crosses are getting too complex so using the numbers should fix that writing problem. Which is funny how complex they are because most of them are going to be heading back to my Mission Mountain Sunrise phenotype when I make my selections.
I have tweaked my neck/back/1st rib and won't be hoeing this weekend. I hope to do some crossing, bumblebee surveys, and blossom bagging instead.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-06-16, 11:29:48 AMFound 14 seeds in the two F2 Sandpoint x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) fruits. So I immediately planted them. Odds are that 3 or 4 of them should be dwarfs.
I think one of the Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) fruits is blushing red.
I made a few new crosses. One of last weekends looks to have taken. Trying to use exciting pollen donors this weekend. Still limited availability of flowers but many more than last week and improving rapidly.
I planted out the Payette cross as well and it is germinating. The Sandpoint cross is segregating for height.
The direct seeded tomatoes are already blooming in 2/4 of the seedings.
Picked some more tomatoes today some from the same plant as before and some from a MMM x GalapagenseX plant. Need to process the last two for seed. They are all cherry tomatoes.
I planted the first fruits of the #358 Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) and the Sandpoint x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) plants. Of the F2 plants I found four clear dwarf plants from the Payette cross and have planted them in the floor of the greenhouse.
Hi William,
Hi Joseph,
Way back at post #115 and #116 on this thread you guys mention 'Brad style spots'.
I got some 'Brad' seed from Experimental Farm Network. The photo on their website is one of Joseph's and it shows golden speckling on the fruit.
My 'Brad' has no spots/speckling AND it wasn't early. It started fruiting fourteenth out of eighteen cultivars, almost a month after the first! (It is a potato leaved, indeterminate.)
I'd like to try it again, from a different source. Are there any other suppliers you are aware of?
Tim DH
EFN sells Joseph's Brad so you've got the right strain. Though you might want to go back to the original packet when you try again. I found a RL Brad once from a cross in an original packet so some crossing and instability might occasionally occur.
Complex cross (MMM x PH5) x (MMM x LA1375) so the F1 acts like an F2 and these three fruits represent the best segregate I found tonight.
Cool looking tomatoes, how is the flavor?
Quote from: reed on 2024-07-27, 02:40:29 PMCool looking tomatoes, how is the flavor?
Just tried and put the seed to ferment. I think flavor is ok.
Just picked two fruits of a new cross.
The mother is an F1 Dwarf from Dwarf Mocha x MMS x MMM x Aztek. The father is my 303 which is MMM x PH5 pimp x MMM x BRpimp
So a fairly complex ancestry but now is where I want it for selection.
Though weird twist the particular individual of 303 used as the father ripened two fruit and they seem unexpectedly orange. I used it as the father on a whole row of crosses. So if the orange comes from galapagense or EO or some such its ancestry would be off a little- but still good and interesting.
Struggling to seed save this year. I put two packets away. Decanted eleven and started eight more to ferment. The to do pile still has a lot though.
Seed Saving is coming along. Got my backlog processed. Was more selective last weekend.
I don't know how you keep up with it and keep it all straight. I'm probably doing less than 10% of what you are and I'm still having trouble with it. Tomatoes on the windowsill waiting to be processed, seeds just starting to ferment, fermented seeds ready to rinse and set to dry, dry seeds ready to package and label. It's fun, but it is a chore.
At any given time, I usually have about 3 types of seed fermenting in very small cups, about 1/2 cup by measure. When those have been processed, it's time to pick more tomatoes and do it again.
I am not very selective about what I save. I figure more is better. However, I save seed from plants with different traits in different envelopes, and do the selection on what to grow and what to cull (for now) at planting time.
I just casually counted 11 fermentation cups. I usually save a tremendous amount of seed. However, I think I need to cull some lines. Many of them could be saved with yet more outcrossing- but there are so many. I now have an increasing number of lines that are really exciting.
One of the conundrums I have is promising lines for important traits that lack an exciting parent in another realm of the equation I've decided should be central to my breeding. Wild x Local x Fancy
Focal lines that I really think would be good to concentrate on include the crosses I made with Payette and Sandpoint last year and the arthropod resistance project and the wild current tomato crosses. I attempted some crosses between those crosses also. Last weekend I attempted crossing those with my 319 which is very vigorous domestic, hab, and galapagense mix. I got my first four seeds from 319 cross- a Black Bumblebee x 319 cross fermenting. I haven't seen any sign of 319 setting fruit yet. Hopefully the uptick in bumblebee activity will help. A few lines that are just for fancy (flavor, color, stripes) need to keep being propagated so I can get their traits. Though it did occur to me that I can just go back to the fancy parents and cross them into my lines with more wild excitement. Likewise, I can just take a full wild parent and cross it just about anything.
I have been collecting 319 and LA2329 pollen from the arthropod resistance patch and transporting them about. Hopefully some more 319 crosses will ensue from last weekend's work.
Picked more tomatoes for seed saving including quite a few new F1 dwarf x 303 crosses. Except the father the only 303 plant in the greenhouse turns out isn't 303. It looks like an orange galapagense cross instead. I've mentioned this before- but its a lot of new crosses. Impossible to tell for sure if this is a dropped seed situation or a wrong father situation. It is ok though. Still an interesting set of new crosses. I think 293 is the likely culprit MMM x Galapagense X. For my notes I'll call it 293? As it could also be a cross with MMM x PH5 as the mother and 293 as the father.
Got my first fruits from 2024 The One descendents. Fun orange fruits. The largest fruit is from a potato leaf rugose dwarf. That would be fun to cross with galapagense!
Rinsed and laid out what was about 21 small tomato fermentations to dry. Started the seeds from the large fruit of The One fermenting. Flavor is very good as was seed production.
F1 of Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x LA1375). This cross fully lives up to my equation: Fancy x Local x Wild. Flavor is wonderful. Has about 1/2 strength antho. Has two OSSI ancestors. I look forward to the F2.
It got down to 38 F in town yesterday and usually that causes some damage in my frost pocket gardens. Usually not lethal- just some leaves lost around the edges. Saturday I will find out.
Made good progress on seed saving. Lots of packets put away, more seed is drying. More to save I've been letting ripen more and then of course there will be more to pick.
Do you use fertilizer for them or all natural?
I use OMRI listed fertilizer products only and mostly of late only to produce transplant seedlings.
The One descendent rugose dwarf potato leaf with high anthocyanin. This is that phenomenon where during segregation you get just a few with the full anthocyanin. In this case just one plant that is both a rugose dwarf and has full anthocyanin. Almost certainly crossed with Mission Mountain tomatoes. Probably about 1/8 wild from Joseph's work so 1/16th Solanum habrochaites and 1/16 Solanum penellii. A good name for it, if it has the good flavor, might be Mission Mountain Flavorful. Edit: it does have really good flavor!
Hello!
Been lurking a bit, first-time posting. ;D First-time crossing 'maters as well; b/w different MMM plants and also MMM x a few heirlooms and Hummingbird, in a passive greenhouse. Not sure what I'm going to keep yet but I've a question/concern... the temperatures in my current situation aren't conducive to the fermenting process so wondering if I keep the seeds/whole fruits frozen once ripe, if they will still be viable to ferment & save at a later time where I have steady temps?
Don't freeze seed saving tomatoes. They must freeze over the winter and then germinate in the garden but I think they sort of slowly rot before they freeze real hard in nature. The fast freeze of freezing a whole fresh ripe fruit seems to do bad things. Better to do the technique where you just bypass fermentation and stick a few seeds to a paper towel with the name written on it and then let it dry tacked to a cork board or something.
Direct seeded Mission Mountain Morning x Brad's Atomic Grape or MMM x BAG for short F2 . Maybe a green when ripe?!
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-09-08, 09:13:12 AMDirect seeded Mission Mountain Morning x Brad's Atomic Grape or MMM x BAG for short F2 . Maybe a green when ripe?!
Definitely green when ripe. Amazing flavor!!! Unexpected. Regular leaf.
Got something similar from a MMM grex plant!
It was green & off-white stripes on the shaded side and turned brighter green with yellow stripes when ripe. 'Purple' on sunny side, some have tiny gold speckles on the blossom end. Very bright green inside. Amateur taste-tester was impressed. :)
Not sure if pic uploaded..
https://ibb.co/mHqhhts
Quote from: Jade Arrowleaf on 2024-09-14, 10:21:14 AMGot something similar from a MMM grex plant!
It was green & off-white stripes on the shaded side and turned brighter green with yellow stripes when ripe. 'Purple' on sunny side, some have tiny gold speckles on the blossom end. Very bright green inside. Amateur taste-tester was impressed. :)
Not sure if pic uploaded..
https://ibb.co/mHqhhts
Nice, sometimes I forget I shared a lot of this stuff via EFN. That has to come from Mission Mountain Morning x Brad's Atomic Grape if it is green when ripe.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-09-11, 07:13:11 PMDefinitely green when ripe. Amazing flavor!!! Unexpected. Regular leaf.
Just processed a second fruit from this plant. Direct seeded two fruits maybe it this year. I'm curious though if root knot nematodes are keeping the plants smaller than they would otherwise be.
Noticed the MMM x BAG fruits much more susceptible to splitting in my conditions than any of the others I'm growing this year.
Quote from: Jade Arrowleaf on 2024-09-18, 07:26:44 AMNoticed the MMM x BAG fruits much more susceptible to splitting in my conditions than any of the others I'm growing this year.
Has anyone found that splitting correlates with sweetness? The tomatoes that are most prone to splitting for me are Sungold F1 and Dwarf Eagle Smiley, and those are also the sweetest tomatoes I grow.
Even among Sungold descendants, the sweeter lines are more prone to splitting and non-splitting lines are less sweet.
This year several of my f2 split like crazy with a bit of rain. The one that split like crazy has no sweetness in it,2 others that has a bit of sweetness dont split that heavenly.
I was surprised that splitting hadn't started last weekend. I guess I got an extra week of the dry season no splitting effect. Splitting should be tested soon here though as we are getting a lot of fall rain now. I wonder if fruit shape matters for splitting. I was surprised not to see some blossom end rot in the MMM x BAG given that many of the segregants are Roma shaped. The big problem I see in that cross is lack of vigour. Possibly due to accumulating soil pathogens like root knot nematodes. I think I need to play around a bit with nematode resistant lines and see if they make any difference in vigour. Galahad F1 is supposed to have intermediate nematode resistance and I don't see much difference with any of its descendants having greater vigour under my conditions. The most vigorous plants in my garden are some LA2329 habrochaites descended crosses. Which are having a dicey time this year as to if they will produce any ripe fruit.
Of the 20 crosses I managed to make in 2024 I'm still waiting for these three all in the greenhouse and which I think I am most excited about. I think I would like to grow these three over the winter to get some F2 seed.
358 (Payette x (MMM X Sweet Cherriette)) x LA2329 Solanum habrochaites
358 (Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)) x 356A (MMM x Galapagense X) (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329)
(Dwarf Mocha's x MMS) x brown rugose true resistant pimp
Another observation about the MMM x BAG plant here, I'd singled it out by smell before any fruit had started to develop. To me it smells slightly fruity/sweet, as did some of the other MMM hybrids, but it also has a distinct 'floral' scent when rubbing the oils off the stem.
Was in the top half of vigorous plants in the GH here, only outcompeted by Hummingbird F2 and MMM cherry-sizes. 5 of 6 Jagodka plants were the real runts which are only now producing buds but were strong seedlings before transplanted into the GH.
Quote from: Jade Arrowleaf on 2024-09-20, 09:45:25 AMAnother observation about the MMM x BAG plant here, I'd singled it out by smell before any fruit had started to develop. To me it smells slightly fruity/sweet, as did some of the other MMM hybrids, but it also has a distinct 'floral' scent when rubbing the oils off the stem.
Was in the top half of vigorous plants in the GH here, only outcompeted by Hummingbird F2 and MMM cherry-sizes. 5 of 6 Jagodka plants were the real runts which are only now producing buds but were strong seedlings before transplanted into the GH.
Just to clarify the mission Mountain grex is not properly abbreviated as MMM, MMM is a specific cross named Mission Mountain Morning. It is Mission Mountain Sunrise crossed with Big Hill OSSI registered as HX-9. I think it is 1/4 Brad, 1/4 Blue Gold, 1/4 Jagodka and 1/4 rl Hillbilly. Then for MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape I've crossed that again and for the MM cherry sizes I've crossed MMM with three different current tomatoes. Some of the northern strains like Jagodka are definitely really small plants so you end up needing a lot of plants. That strategy of small ultra early plants is really for far north, high elevation, and for having a few really early small tomatoes in longer seasons. Many of my strains share that trait though its hard to tell in my bad soils for sure but most individuals are small now. The smell you've detected- it's hard to know where that came from. I would consider that cross a full domestic- but honestly it's descended from lots of early modern and modern tomatoes and could have any number of wild introgressions that might contribute that scent. Including of course the obvious introgressions like the Aft gene for anthocyanin skin.
Oh my goodness, as an amateur I was still a bit confused about all these different lines ;D
Thank you for clarifying, that cleared some things up for me!
So will use MM grex for future observational posts.
Here is another interesting result from that EFN seed packet, they appear a bit 'gold' from a distance when ripe. Up-close the epidermis looks clear or slightly yellow with a mild rose blush, the purple shoulders and green insides.
I just found an interesting cross I made and labeled and just rediscovered. My 348 x my 319
348 is Galahad x MMM x (Purple Zebra)
319 is (MMM x galapagense x unk) x (MMM x LA2329)
I'm pretty excited about this cross.
Potato leaf white shah (pictured). Given to me in 2017 and haven't grown it in awhile. Was probably hoping to make a cross with it I didn't get to. Except it looks like maybe I did manage a cross years ago judging from the anthocyanin! This would be fun to stabilize a bit and make crosses with.
I wonder how many other crosses are just sitting in my seed collection waiting to be found.
Also got a ripe fruit from a last year discovery in the promiscuous direct seeded. A blue red Potato leaf dwarf. Seems true to type a second year.
Quote from: Jade Arrowleaf on 2024-09-21, 09:58:16 AMOh my goodness, as an amateur I was still a bit confused about all these different lines ;D
Thank you for clarifying, that cleared some things up for me!
So will use MM grex for future observational posts.
Here is another interesting result from that EFN seed packet, they appear a bit 'gold' from a distance when ripe. Up-close the epidermis looks clear or slightly yellow with a mild rose blush, the purple shoulders and green insides.
Nice find! It's always fun to find nice new tomatoes in the early filial generations!
Thinking about downsizing my tomato growing for 2025. Counted what I have in the greenhouse and it is 28 plants. That is 10 more than a flat of 18 which I was also thinking of.
Favorite plants right now are the 4 dwarf offspring of Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) lots of crossed tomatoes on them from two crosses. Expecting more frosts but there is a milkhouse heater in the greenhouse house now so they should be good at least another week.
Brad's golden spots everywhere.
My tomato project has my mentor Joseph Lofthouse's work as a foundation. One or my earliest crosses was with an unknown exserted potato leaf from Joseph's early tomato grex. Most likely with Brad Gates Blue Gold. I stabilized this cross as a blue bicolor for a few years and then shared it as Mission Mountain Sunrise. It occasionally had golden spots like a red potato leaf tomato that did very well for Joseph called Brad as it arrived to him mislabeled. Thus we learned that Brad was the mother of my MMS cross. I then outcrossed it to Josephs OSSI registered HX-9 which got the final name Big Hill. Big Hill is Jagodka x RL Hillbilly. This outcross I made with MMS and Big Hill I call Mission Mountain Morning or MMM for short. MMM is therefore ¼ Brad, ¼ Blue Gold, ¼ Hillbilly and ¼ Jagodka. I proceeded to make as many crosses as I could with MMM and it is now foundational to my breeding work.
One thing I'm noticing is that throughout my descendent work is often the golden spots of Brad. Brad also made its way into the promiscuous tomato project. The line of Promiscuous that both Joseph and I direct seeded multiple years was particularly rife with Brad spots. This year I found Brad's golden spots in my fully domestic MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape looking like stars in a night sky and in my descendants of The One line of the promiscuous tomato project. How about you? Do Brad's golden spots show up now in your garden?
Definitions:
1. MMM is Mission Mountain Morning or Mission Mountain Sunrise crossed with HX-9 Big Hill
2. BAG is Brad's Atomic Grape
3. Arthropods a term that encompasses both six legged insects and eight legged mites.
4. LA2329 is an arthropod resistant accession of Solanum habrochaites
5. LA1410 is an accession of Solanum galapagense which is a species known for salt tolerance and arthropod resistance as well as naturally orange fruit.
6. University of Kentucky material is descended from LA2329 and is bred to have the arthropod resistance spread across about 20 breeding lines.
7. Brown Rugose Fruit Virus is a rapidly spreading global pandemic amongst tomatoes that hasn't quite reached us here yet
8. LA1375 is an accession of current tomato that has tolerance to the Brown Rugose Fruit Virus but I have more accessions with both resistance and tolerance to cross in.
9. Smashflower: My beloved's Etsy seed shop.
10. Local: either my previous varieties or varieties from Montana, Alberta, North Dakota, and Idaho.
11. Fancy: to me tomatoes with features like anthocyanin skin, stripes, and a wide range of colors and flavors such as green when ripe, bicolor, orange, yellow, black, and white.
12. Wild: generally tomatoes from South America including all wild species but also South American accessions of the cerasiforme subspecies. Though some Accessions from further North may add something useful.
13. The One a particular tasty individual of my mentor Joseph Lofthouse's wild tomato breeding project that showed up approximately 2020 with approximately 1/8th habrochaites and 1/8th pennellii, though likely now has crossed with my Mission Mountain tomatoes and is down to 1/16th each.
14. PZ is Purple Zebra F1 a remarkable heirloom style modern which along with Galahad F1 also a modern heirloom style hybrid I am using as a source of modern resistances to try to make my tomatoes more broadly useful.
New Crosses!
1. Made 22 new crosses!
2. Made one new cross with a new brown rugose fruit virus resistant current tomato from South America.
3. Made an exciting new cross between my Galahad cross and an exciting line of the LA2329 material.
4. Began crossing the crosses with Payette with LA2329 and the crosses with LA2329
5. Of the new crosses 9 were fathered by a plant which should have been 303 MMM x LA1375 x MMM x PH5 current but either segregated to orange from that cross or had a different parentage than expected and I have decided to designate as 293?
Reviving Regional Tomato Breeding by Crossing with the old Varieties
1. I now have crosses with Bison, Farthest North, Payette, Sandpoint, Nodak Early, Golden Bison, Fisher's Prairie Fire, Fisher's Mountain Boy, McClintock, and likely some others.
2. Most of these are now in the F2 with at least one new cross.
Crossing with Regional Favorites
1. I finally made a cross with Glacier
New Discoveries!
1. The F1 of Dwarf Eagle Smiley and MMM x LA1375 proved quite delicious. This could mean that Dwarf Eagle Smiley is an excellent choice for crossing with.
2. The F2 of MMM x BAG segregated out some delicious green when ripes- better than Brad's Atomic Grape in my estimation, with wonderful stripes. This will be great material to cross with wild material.
3. The one descendants segregated out a potato leaf rugose dwarf with high anthocyanin expression that must be a cross with Mission Mountain tomato material. Though the rugose dwarfing is of uncertain origin and could come from either parent. This new tomato will both show any subsequent crosses readily in its offspring and be an excellent mother for future crosses
4. Several lines of current crosses segregated back to high anthocyanin or even high anthocyanin bicolors.
5. Got a little bit of segregation back to larger sized material especially with ¼ current crosses in the F1's.
6. Got some segregation back to potato leaf and back to dwarf in multiple F2 lines including notably the The One descendants and the Payette descendants. This is very useful for subsequent crossing.
Wild x Local x Fancy
1. There are now ~47 crosses of mine that may meet my self-imposed standard of Wild x Local x Fancy that is a double cross that adds both new South American genetics and Fancy genetics to the locally adapted tomatoes available in Montana.
2. Progress on Fancy includes Yellow, Orange, Anthocyanin, Bicolor, and Stripes in the Wild x Local x Fancy. White and Green When Ripe crosses are still in Local x Fancy stages only. Local x Fancy crosses are important because they may bring in more of the morphological variation available in tomatoes but a little vexing because of limited resources.
Seed Saved
1. Saved small amounts of seed from many tomatoes both mine and breeding material from others.
2. Saved a large amount of seed from three accessions from University of Kentucky hopefully for a future trial.
3. Saved a large amount of seed from The One mixed descendants to share via Smashflower on Etsy.
4. Saved a large amount of seed from mixed breeding lines of current tomato crosses I have made to share via Smashflower on Etsy. These included notably large amounts of 1. MMM x PZ x MMM x LA1375 2. MMM x LA1375 x MMM x PH5, and 3. Dwarf Gloria's Treat x currents though many additional subsequent crosses with the currents may be included in smaller quantities.
Next Year Plans.
This is frustrating but I am going to try to limit the scope of the project in 2025 greatly. I want to be more available to help my parents in 2025. This may mean prioritizing just what will fit in the greenhouse (28 plants in 2024) for starting indoors and perhaps doing as few as one direct seeded area. This makes prioritization very important for 2025. Likely will grow University of Kentucky plants for crossing. I may continue to direct seed favorite selections from The One descendants. Crosses from Payette especially those from both Payette and LA2329 will be prioritized. So, 2025 will likely be a crossing year for a few select lines. Though if I grow 28 different lines and make a cross with each- that could mean 28 new crosses made in 2025 which would exceed this year's crossing goals.
High Priority Lines for Growout and subsequent crossing in 2025
1. MMM x BAG with good stripes and green when ripe
2. (MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
3. (MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
4. (MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375)
5. MMM x LA1375
6. MMM x PH5 pimp
7. Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
8. Galahad F1 x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1)
9. (MMM x Galapagense X) (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329)
10. Payette x (MMM x Galapagense X)
11. Payette x (MMM x LA1375)
12. 4-150 LA5343
13. 5-136 LA5341
14. SG87 LA5338
15. SH13 LA5339
16. PI 379006 LA1385 Solanum lycopersicum L. var. cerasiforme
17. Black Bumblebee x 319 ((MMM X GalapagenseX) X (MMM x LA2329))
18. 348 x 319 where 348 is a Galahad cross and 319 is a LA2329 cross
19. 358 (Payette x (MMM X Sweet Cherriette)) x LA2329
20. 358 (Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)) x 356A (MMM x Galapagense X) (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329)
21. (Dwarf Mocha's x MMS) x brown rugose true resistant pimp
22. The One Descended Rugose Dwarf best Anthocyanin Potato Leaf with best flavor
Future Challenges
1. There are always new additional crosses that it would be nice to make! For instance many of my crosses don't yet meet my double cross wild x local x fancy standard yet.
2. Several 2023 crosses could not be confirmed in the F1 or appeared to be failures or not the expected cross. This included most notably the Exserted Orange crosses with the LA2329 material- one of which might be a cross with the LA1410 material and thus extremely valuable and the F2 may tell if so.
3. None of the ¼ LA2329 material was palatable in 2024 but some were elite in that they looked like promiscuous project tomatoes- getting good flavor back from LA2329 crosses is important.
4. Need to make crosses with the University of Kentucky material
5. Need to make more new crosses with the new brown rugose fruit virus resistant and tolerant material.
6. The One descendants continued to segregate wildly and getting a stable result is a goal.
7. I need to grow the MMM x PZ x MMM x PH5 cross I made in 2023.
University of Kentucky material, what is that? I'm curious because I can stand on my porch and almost throw a rock into Kentucky.
Quote from: reed on 2024-10-07, 02:49:41 AMUniversity of Kentucky material, what is that? I'm curious because I can stand on my porch and almost throw a rock into Kentucky.
Arthropod resistant breeding lines, about 20 of them.
Some crosses that may really deserve a larger F2 grow out.
All three of the crosses that have both purple zebra and currant tomatoes in the mix as some really fancy striped tomatoes could be in there somewhere.
(MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x Purple zebra) x (mmm x galapagense x)
A really tasty F1 that might have a really interesting F2
Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-10-07, 05:47:10 AMArthropod resistant breeding lines, about 20 of them.
Maybe it's just another context or situation like in big commercial fields, but I don't see much of an issue with arthropods on my tomatoes. I have an occasional tomato worm now and then, but they are easy to see and remove before the do much damage. Sometimes I find one with lots of those little wasp cocoons, I leave them alone. Actually, I don't think there even are as many of the worms as there were years ago.
I think the arthropod resistance may possibly help organic gardeners and farmers in areas where insects or mites are a big problem or spread diseases. Regionally I am curious if they'll be useful for curly top virus which is spread by beet leafhoppers which live both on beets and in chenopod scrublands which are common in the great basin and portions of the sagebrush steep even in Eastern Montana. Often anywhere with saline badlands will have some shrubs in the beet family.
Hi William
I sympathise with your 28 limit on Greenhouse plants, tho' it does help to focus the mind!
My current limit is 18 plants, which is one reason why I concentrate on F1s, rather than growing out F2+s
My promised new greenhouse should take 36 tomatoes, but that still only exists on paper!!
I think it will help me to focus on crossing.
I put four new F1 crosses in bags for seed saving today.
Forest Fire x promiscuous currant type - this one is likely only 1/4 Joseph's promiscuous project.
366 F1 x 358 F1 where 366 is Payette x (MMM x LA1375) and 358 is Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
362 F1 x 358 F1 where 362 is Payette x (MMM x galapagensex) and 358 is Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
358 F1 x LA2329 so a new half habrochaites cross.
These should all be fun crosses with the latter three all part of my hopes to improve on Payette by adding in arthropod resistance to thwart the leafhoppers that spread the curly top virus of regional importance.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-10-06, 06:08:39 AMBrad's golden spots everywhere.
How about you? Do Brad's golden spots show up now in your garden?
Had noticed a speckle here and there (1 or 2 per fruit) like the ones in your photos on the MMM x BAG plant here but they appeared more green or slightly yellow-green than gold. A few were a forest green amidst the antho blackness and could only really be seen with intense sunlight.
More present and prolific were bursts of tiny gold dots that really did look like stars in the sky and were most noticeable within the black-purple antho patches and streaks. :)
Still working on rounding up some nice pictures to add..
I grew out four very similar F1's over last winter and the plants are still alive in the greenhouse.
358 Payette x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
342 Sandpoint x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
362 Payette x (MMM x Galapagense x)
366 Payette x (MMM x LA1375 current)
Of these the two 1/4 Sweet Cherriette crosses were notably earlier and of those the Sandpoint cross was notably earlier and in fact I now have a packet of F3 seed of the Sandpoint cross. This also seems to be generally true of the Sweet Cherriette genetics- it is conferring a lot of heritable earliness to crosses and this isn't just from small fruit size as the current crosses above illustrate. This bodes well for my number 306: (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x (MMM x LA1375). It is interesting that Sandpoint seemed to indeed confer some earliness too. I don't think I managed any crosses with the 342 Sandpoint cross in 2024 though or with its F2. I had one F2 plant saved but it mysteriously died the other day- has one fruit on it that looks like it will ripen though. Partly this is because, perhaps by chance, the F2 of the Sandpoint cross didn't produce obvious rugose dwarfs with the seed sample size I had.
Tim DH was just writing about his Latah backcrossing project and Latah has similar genetics to Sandpoint as both are descended from both Payette and the Subarctic series from Alberta. I think I grew one Latah plant somewhere in my garden this year for the first time but it didn't particularly stand out and I didn't manage to go up and down the rows making many crosses this year. Payette, Sandpoint, and Owyhee are all known for some curly top virus resistance so I think I may prefer crossing with Sandpoint over Latah for earliness but I would expect Latah to be a good source of earliness as well.
I have crosses I'm still hoping to pick on the four F2 dwarf plants of 358 I chose where I am hoping to combine lines descended from LA2329 to see if perhaps the arthropod resistance will be additive to the curly top resistance. I already have saved seed from one cross with the 358 F1 x LA2329 itself. I have that same cross with F2 but also with 356A which as an individual plant looked to have the correct trichomes under the microscope and is a potato leaf elite with domestic looking fruits. I also have a 358F1 x 319 cross waiting to ripen where 319 is a high percentage LA2329 cross. Many of these crosses are already to the shiny stage of green where the seeds should probably be viable. I just picked three green tomatoes one from each of the crosses to ripen inside as a backup in case the power fails in the greenhouse.
319 (MMM X GalapagenseX) X (MMM x LA2329)
356 (MMM x Galapagense X) (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329)
I went ahead and picked the last of the crosses today all at the shiny green stage. It will take a couple of weeks to ripen them up and extract the seeds.
https://apps.msuextension.org/montguide/guide.html?sku=MT199217AG
MSU extension suggests that flea beetles, hornworms, and leafhoppers are important insect pests of tomato.
Article also says that Fusarium wilt, verticilium wilt, bacterial canker, and western yellow blight aka curly top are the important tomato diseases here.
Owyhee, Payette, and Sandpoint have curly top resistance. Galahad F1 and Purple Zebra F1 each have resistance to both of the wilts. Combining the two groups is already on my agenda.
https://www.montana.edu/cope/email-format/admin/view.php?draft=12643&uid=64d129a8dec491.28541207#:~:text=The%20most%20common%20viruses%20in,cucumber%20mosaic%20virus%20(CMV).
The above article also suggests that tobacco mosaic virus (TMV), tomato spotted wilt virus (TSWV), and cucumber mosaic virus all cause leaf curl in MT.
https://victoryseeds.com/products/bush-early-girl-tomato?srsltid=AfmBOoo7iD1x0ju_6bWmN2XxuciUYh8kiFlHqoyIGGj6VGieOHMVqwLk
I noticed I have some root knot nematodes in my oldest garden. Bush Early Girl has resistance to that and the TMV and the Fusarium and Verticilium wilts. I recently picked up a packet of it for the root knot nematode resistance.
Wondering if a notably healthier tomato plant would be the result of finding the correct resistances for my region and garden?! I have noticed that some tomatoes just don't make it here. Used to be related to length of season, though now I am wondering if some are also just not able to deal with whatever small buildup of diseases I may have by growing tomatoes so frequently. Like the root knot nematodes in the old fenced garden.
It seems to me that if the currant tomatoes follow the same pattern as the habrochaites crosses- the F2 seed from my 25% currant crosses I grew this year should result in some size recovery in 2025. If not perhaps I will cross them to the size recovered habrochaites crosses.
William, have you tried growing mustard either in between tomato seasons or as a companion to tomatoes?
Nematodes will supposedly not do well in soil where mustard is grown periodically.
I could probably raise some siberian kale seed and do a nice mustard cover crop with it. Though I like the idea of selecting for resistance.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-11-02, 01:27:33 PMhttps://apps.msuextension.org/montguide/guide.html?sku=MT199217AG
Wondering if a notably healthier tomato plant would be the result of finding the correct resistances for my region and garden?! I have noticed that some tomatoes just don't make it here. Used to be related to length of season, though now I am wondering if some are also just not able to deal with whatever small buildup of diseases I may have by growing tomatoes so frequently. Like the root knot nematodes in the old fenced garden.
I think something like that is what is going on in my small garden. I've been growing here for close to thirty years, and I've never been good at disposing of diseased vines or keeping it clean, I just compost everything or not even that. I use old vines, diseased or not as mulch. Maybe endophytes or epigenetics play some role, if those are real things. Sometimes a new one will just sort of rot away before it even fruits.
The "One" you sent me was like that, I got two little fruits from it, and they tasted spoiled. Those crosses you did for me with Hoosier Rose and Mr. Stripy were completely the opposite, they did just well or maybe a little better than my own. I think it is a bit regional too because large beefsteak types from Appalachia often do well, although not always.
So, it appears that while some Montanna tomatoes may croak here and vice versa it isn't cut in stone. Maybe there is some commonality of resistance and production across a much wider area. I'll leave it to you though to figure out what it is.
The F1 of those Hoosier Rose, Mr. Stripey, and Utah Heart did better for me than the new to me parents. I found Hoosier Rose and Mr. Stripey pretty slow to ripen. The F2 could be even more promising though some probably would be discards. I do think there is some evidence that tomatoes do adapt to a region. I've had pretty good luck with the early modern tomatoes that were regionally bred.
On my current garden land I have a soil with a bit of a clay problem. I tried searching a couple search engines for tomato varieties that do well in clay. Oddly perhaps the most easy to sort results were the AI ones. One of the more consistent results is that cherry tomatoes do well. That seems to generally be true. Some of the current and cherry tomatoes are more robust larger plants in my garden.
I suspect that even if just inadvertent selection has made tomatoes from my own breeding better adapted to my garden. Though I do wonder if I may have missed some important traits. Joseph sent me some possible segregating Celebrity genetics years ago. I don't think I've grown them out now for a long time. Bush Early Girl F1 came up along with Celebrity F1 as tomatoes for clay soil. I believe both also came up in regards to root knot nematodes. I have a new packet of Bush Early Girl in response. I wonder if the nematodes and success in clay soils are really quite related problems. AI assistant in search says that the nematodes are worse in sandy soils which I have imported into the upper layers of the garden most affected. Interesting. Maybe I could reduce the problem by digging in that garden more with my meadow creature broadfork. By mixing more clay into the upper layers.
It could be that clay soils and or root knot nematodes are selecting factors in my garden. Honestly it could be the case that tomatoes from my breeding already have some traits that help them deal with both. Either way it might be interesting to see if I can revive the Celebrity descendants for a grow out and also grow a bit of the new packet of Bush Early Girl to see if there is a notable difference.
I wonder if the local favorites sold by Triple Divide Seed coop also might be useful in local soils? They've tended to do well enough in my garden. The very widespread and well known varieties Stupice, Glacier, Silvery Fir Tree and Black Cherry are amongst them. I made a Glacier cross this year and intended to make others.
Silvery Fir Tree is one that did well for Joseph and Joseph's tomatoes have done very well for me and are included as ancestors in most of my tomatoes. I suspect the MMM or Mission Mountain Morning cross is 1/4 Brad and 1/4 Jagodka from Joseph's finds. Most of my own crosses now are descended from MMM. So if Brad or Jagodka have the traits necessary for clay soils and nematodes then those are likely already very well represented here.
I also wonder what all the regionally bred early modern tomatoes may bring to the table for local soils and pathogens? I've been working to make crosses with them. I think they do well enough here. Furthest North is a currant tomato cross and many others of them are descendants of it.
The currant tomatoes I've crossed in did well and their descendants seem ok.
The most vigorous tomatoes in my garden tend to be recent habrochaites crosses. Though the most selected and palatable of the hybrids seem far less vigorous.
I just planted some seed of four of my breeding lines in a little light garden to add a little excitement to my winter.
286 or F3 Dwarf Gloria's Treat x Pimps. Notes say from orange or dark yellow mother with good flavor and a favorite.
339 The One. Mother was my favorite a rugose potato leaf dwarf with high anthocyanin expression and good flavor.
314 F2 Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x LA1375) 1/2 strength antho. Very promising flavor in F1.
366 F2 Payette x (MMM x LA1375)
I planted a few extra seeds and plan to weed out non dwarfs. I imagine I have a long road of scraggly plants ahead of me that will likely just get planted out as extra-large plants. I don't judge that I have enough time or powerful enough lights to grow them out to fruit before spring. Though maybe I'll buy a fancy light for them at some point.
Seedlings are up. Hopefully all will have some dwarfs.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2025-02-01, 06:49:27 PMSeedlings are up. Hopefully all will have some dwarfs.
The dwarf eagle smiley cross is non-dwarf from the selected mother but only five seeds planted. All the others have dwarves and two of them need thinned. The One x MM seems consistently potato leaved and probably dwarf which is very good for stabilizing that project.
https://gaiaorganics.ca/product/mission-mountain-grex-tomato/
I just found this from a link someone shared on Going to Seed! Interesting! Ontario Canada!
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1872040019/mission-mountain-cherry-tomato-directly?
Aimee has reopened her seed shop for 2025.
I started sorting out tomato seeds to plant tonight. My goal is to plant them in a few days on the 3rd which is 6 weeks from may 15th the average date of last frost.
I've decided to use cow pots and stainless steel trays this year. The trays which I picked out because I'm sick of reading about microplastic came coated in a thin film of plastic- hard to peel off also. Worked at peeling the trays a long time. 12 cow pots fit on each tray and 3 trays each shelf. So my two shelves will fit just 72 varieties or lines. I'll probably start more in the greenhouse just a little later. I sorted the seed. Had to put some back which hurt a little. To be clear I didn't finish planting tonight. The pots are laid out and the seeds are sorted out. I'm trying to wait till the third but maybe I'll get it done tomorrow.
What is a cow pot?
A cow pot is much like a peat pot but the fiber is produced by a cow.
Do you plant the pot as well as the seedling? Does it then act as a fertilizer?
That does sound like their advertisement.
Rather expensive, though. I'm still growing seedlings in the little plastic pots I bought 50 years ago.
Yeah, I'm going to have to get my own Scottish highland house cow so I can grow my own.
I've got one tray planted and all six trays filled with organic pro mix. I think I'll get ready for bed now.
I planted the other 5 trays. Just 72 accessions. Trying to cut back. It is hard though. I plan to do some transplanting of extras and some direct seeding.
Tomatoes are germinating. The promiscuous SI, my line 340, PI 129143, my line 283. Beaverlodge 6808,
I wish mine would sprout. I sowed them in hoop houses probably two weeks ago and nothing I can see so far without opening them. Weather has been interestingly uncooperative.
They'll probably come along once the weather cooperates.
Mine continue to germinate.
Germination is slowing down maybe almost done. I replanted some duds. First true leaves are forming or have formed on lots of them. I hope to rototill this weekend and do a little direct seeding on the 26th maybe.
Hoppy Easter! Best of luck to y'all this growing season!
Not sure if I'll be able to plant any this year but sowed a big community pot of last year's crosses anyways.
Rototilled today and yesterday. Made a lot of progress.
Rototilled again this weekend. Several good potential areas for direct seeding experiments this year. I think the North end of the NE garden might be a good spot as its been a while since there were tomatoes there, might be a good spot for Joseph's SI project. I plan to direct seed the tasty subset of Joseph's that crossed with my lines in the NW garden again. The SW garden will likely get a row of the 25% LA2329 again and a row of Joseph's SI project. Its not too early to direct seed but I didn't this weekend in favor of rototilling more first. Transplanted a few of Joseph's lines and a few others in the greenhouse. Planted a few plants into the soil of the greenhouse under the benches. Weather report looks pretty good, lowest low I saw was 39 F.
I just sorted out seeds for the three direct seeded experiments. SI Lofthouse promiscuous, 1/4 LA2329 which is (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329), and the tasty line of promiscuous x my Mission Mountain tomatoes. So this year all three direct seeded projects will have some promiscuous project ancestry and two of those are crossed with my projects which is fun.
Direct seeded my the one x MM garden again. I also carried a large package of my mixed currant tomato crosses up the hill and planted them in pocket gopher mounds. I'm curious if maybe they can just be turned loose in the wild. Also it is supposed to rain tonight and tomorrow so maybe just in time.
Just direct seeded three rows in my SW garden. I think this will be the end of my direct seeding this year.
I put the rows three paces apart or about 10 feet. Garden is 9 paces wide and 21 paces long or about 30 feet by 60 feet.
I did number 292 MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329) to the west. Lofthouse promiscuous selected for SI on the center. Then striped F3 number 294 MMM x BAG domestic to the East side of the garden.
Well is flooded so I can't water until it drains. It is down in a culvert and if the groundwater is high it floods and then a part needs replaced.
Rototiller just stopped working- not the engine the tiller. Hopefully it will rain about an inch. 0.27 of an inch expected tomorrow. That is a good start.
Transplants probably need to wait until next weekend to plant. The more hardened off ones are too small.
I just bought a Celebrity F1 and a Bush Early Girl F1 because they have those resistances to root knot nematodes. They look about 8 weeks old. Will plant them tomorrow in the old fenced garden where that is a problem. I need to sort out others that may have resistant ancestors to test there.
Beautiful sunny day so far. Supposed to rain later. Unfortunately I decided to jump the gun and plant some tomatoes I dont think are hardened off. I planted them and then pulled some weeds to shade them. Hope it works.
I direct sowed tomatoes on May 12th. The seed mostly came from William's 2022 harvest. I inter-planted with radish and turnip, wondering if they might distract the flea beetles, and to mark the rows. Also tossed in some chili pepper seed, a direct-sown variety from around Santa Fe New Mexico.
I planted two weeks before my typical last frost, just before some predicted stormy weather.
Hi Joseph,
Hoh do you worked your soil before a direct tomato seedling? Do you broken the clod?
Do you expand compost or manure?
In my garden I simply rototill. Though my rototillers have given up for a bit and will need to be serviced.
Those 2022 tomatoes were the second year of a promiscuous tomato direct seeding experiments Joseph started. I direct seeded them in my NE most garden. So these are the seed increased survivors of two years of direct seeding. In 2023 I direct seeded the promiscuous project again this time in my center west garden but included many more sub - strains. The 2022 ones were heavily dominated by reds with Brad spots. These were evident again in 2023. I think I stashed away a few seeds.
I think it would be lovely to have a few parallel rows of different strains but not move them around. Keep them in the same place for years and watch and select as they slowly transfer pollen between each other. Though I've never managed to follow through on the experiment for terribly many years. Though the descendants of The One are the result of such an experiment. I was going to put them in where I've got the MMM x Brad but I used up all the highly selected seed. Though I've got ounces of the general run.
My tomato field grew grass and alfalfa last summer. I tilled with the tractor about a month ago, and with a small hand tiller about two weeks ago, and with the small tiller again on the day I planted the seeds.
I do not bring any inputs into my garden other than irrigation water. Whatever grew last summer becomes this year's soil fertility.
William For the rottotiller its often a small thing.Often the glow plug.Have you tried to started with clean braker in fuel tank?
The rototiller that just stopped its the tiller not the engine. It is leaking oil and making an odd sound and not tilling.
The other one I haven't tried in a year.
I got most of the transplants planted this past weekend. Just a few trays of small ones left.
Also: weather underground reports a current temperature of 33F. Not good. Weather.gov says 30 F.
My wife checked on the tomatoes yesterday and they were only moderately frosted. So fair chance they will be ok.
I think every variety survived the frost, though not every individual. Mostly looks ok though I expect the plants to recover.
I planted the rest out even if they were very small. If they die that's ok, I'm trying to cut back a little this year.
Made my first crossing attempts yesterday of 2025. I took pollen from a variety cerasiforme tomato from South America and emasculated as many about to open flowers as I could find and daubed them with the pollen on other varieties and breeding lines. I would only expect some of the resulting crosses to take. Always kind of exciting. The pollen parent is LA1385 an accession known for some resistance or tolerance to the brown rugose fruit virus which is spreading rapidly globally. I have about ten accessions for that problem that I need to make crosses with.
Crosses from last weekend, none of which yet look like definite fails.
499 x LA1385
321 x LA1385
340 x LA1385
360 x LA1385
500 x LA1385
339 x LA1385 big fruit so probably took well
504 x LA1385 big fruit so probably took well
298 x LA1385
LA1385 x 306
286 x LA1385
Beaverlodge 6808 x LA1385
314 x LA1385 big fruit so probably took well
New crosses tonight- I should be able to double dip these tomorrow.
Cosmic Purple Rain x 366 dwarf
4-72A x 366 dwarf
SG-87 x 366 dwarf
SH-13 x 366 dwarf
Spending a lot of time observing and thinking about these tomato plants. ;D
Have got fruit formation on one, just 62 days from seed! Mostly outdoors, still in a ~2gal. pot.
It is from a 2024 cross that appears successful: Northern Light X Mission Mountain Grex
The Northern Light (no 's') was a med-large red ribbed heirloom with slightly purple shoulders.
The grex plant was the earliest and most productive last year, red, cherry size. Both were regular leafed and exserted to different degrees.
This offspring is potato-leaf and every flower so far exserted. Just been manually self-crossing as it is a bit ahead of all the others.
https://www.seedstrust.com/tomatoes/tomato-early-northern-light?srsltid=AfmBOoqqQwvwdLBUMMg0qOOsODHJb0eawsf4_O3AUFWSh9cYz6StPNSE
Interesting Northern Light is attributed to MT by seedstrust- wonder if it is from Fisher's originally! https://commonsenseseeds.ca/seeds/tomato-northern-light/
Looks like it is from Fisher's according to the above link. Though it could be older it speculates...
I wouldn't be surprised if that early one in the grex was an MMM x Sweet Cherriette.
I just ran out of the little paper hang tags I use to mark crosses. Have to head back to the house for more. Might just cross there. Made some first cross attempts with PI 129143 and with LA0410 just now. Storm rolling in tonight and staying for the weekend. Should be some well needed water.
Later:
I crossed at the house then we all went back out to the land and I crossed more out there until I ran out of plants with flowers. I do have a late planting and the direct seeded plantings that won't bloom much for awhile. I made a lot of cross attempts today. Used LA1385 as well as the other two and a few of mine as parents. Altogether it seems really promising.
The MMM x BAG striped selections F3 domestic direct seeded row would be interesting to make lots of wild crosses with because of the wide variety of colors possible. I made a first cross attempt today with the one transplant clump of it which should be striped and green when ripe and the mother was potato leaved. One thought in the back of my head though is that if crossing with Brad's Atomic Grape produces great visual diversity- going all the way back to Brad's Atomic Grape might make more sense than crossing with crosses with it. A sort of ideal double cross for getting a lot of visual diversity to select from might be as simple as a 25% local tomato variety, 25% wild tomato, and 50% Brad's Atomic Grape for fanciness. So say any one of my crosses with LA1385 crosses took. Crossing it next year with BAG might lead to a more visually diverse outcome. However, I am uncertain how different segregation from a BAG cross might be then say from a green when ripe descendant of BAG! It might be very similar. If it is similar and today's potato leaf (MMM x BAG) x current tomato cross takes then in two years the outcome may be very fun. Because the F2 of MMM x BAG was a lot of fun! One potential improvement I could select for in MMM x BAG this year would be if I could find and save seed from an individual plant with good stigma exsertion from its Big Hill ancestor.
I prioritized the main transplant grow out to be my prior wild crosses but the occasional domestic made the cut and its almost a bit surprising to come across those- but they are high priority for crossing with something wild- especially when I am holding a spoon full of pollen! Though it does seem productive for the Brown Rugose Fruit Virus readiness project to cross a lot of dilute descendants of LA1375 with LA1385 and the PI 129143. Which also has been happening!
One kind of disappointment currently is that the 50% currant tomatoes in the greenhouse are being a bit slow to bloom. I'd like to make more crosses with them- but hopefully that will come along presently in another week or two- or sometime this summer. I regret that I only planted one clump of each of those this year. Though collectively many other crosses are the 25% and even 12.5% descendants of the prior currant crosses.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2025-06-19, 04:49:38 PMInteresting Northern Light is attributed to MT by seedstrust- wonder if it is from Fisher's originally! https://commonsenseseeds.ca/seeds/tomato-northern-light/
Looks like it is from Fisher's according to the above link. Though it could be older it speculates...
Interesting!
This Northern Light plant had quite a bit of fasciation. Must be why the fruits emerged larger and more ribbed than these catalog photos. The seed came from Miss Penn: https://www.pennandcordsgarden.com/store/p159/Northern_Light.html
The following look like takes to me:
SG-87 × 366 dwarf where SG-87 is a arthropod resistant line and 366 dwarf is Payette x (Mission Mountain Morning or MMM x LA1375 a brown rugose tolerant line). I'm guessing this will be a simple red tomato.
SH-13 x 366 dwarf where SH-13 is also a arthropod resistance line. I'm guessing this will be a simple red tomato.
LA1385 x 306 where LA1385 is for the brown rugose virus and 306 is (MMM x Sweet Cherriette very short season) x (MMM x LA1375). Depending on how well I selected the 306 this could end up as a blue bicolor. Will know more when the fruit ripens.
339 x LA1385 where 339 is the one promiscuous a potato leaved antho bicolor. This has potential to segregate to a tasty potayo leaf blue bicolor. It could eventually be a good thing to cross with some LA1385 half siblings.
298 x LA1385 where 298 is (MMM x Purple Zebra) x (MMM x PH5 currant for late blight). Will have to see what the mothers fruit looks like to see what potential this cross might have.
Beaverlodge 6808 x LA1385 where 6808 is an Alberta bred tomato. It will be red unless crossed again which I would normally do as it has neither fancy ancestry nor open source ancestry. So I may never share this cross in this form.
314 x LA1385 where 314 is dwarf eagle Smiley x (mmm x LA1375). This should be a fun cross with good potential for segregating back to a dwarf eagle Smiley flavor
Cosmic Purple Rain x 366 Dwarf. This cross could bring needed color and interest into my Payette descended crosses.
504 x LA1385 where 504 is Glacier x 320 which is MMS x (MMM x LA1375). I suspect this cross would be hard to move away from being an ordinary red tomato as 504 is an F1. So a subsequent cross may be needed.
There are very likely more out in the big garden.
I think one thing that I'll have to wait a bit longer for is the MMM x BAG to bloom more. I think it may be an important parent with the wild tomatoes as it really brings the fancy traits. I think I made a first cross attempt maybe with PI 129143 yesterday. I have a fear though that soil splash meant there was some dirt on the flowers of that currant tomato. I imagine that could negatively impact take or even confuse dirt with pollen. I think I need to spread some partially composted sawdust I have a pile of under that clump of plants to control soil splash as I will likely want to try more crosses with it. Probably not a bad idea to use some kind of mulch under all tomatoes.
There is one more take out on the land it is 500 x LA1385 where 500 is likely Dwarf Johnson's Cherry x 303 and 303 is MMM x LA1375 currant x MMM x PH5 currant. This would most likely segregate to plain red tomatoes.
The rest need more time to be sure. Might be that the really obvious ones are from the week before last when I first started crossing for the year.
I culled two out of the first four SI line promiscuous project tomatoes to bloom for lack of stigma exsertion.
I also pulled and moved all the direct seeded regular leaf RL The One x MM out of the isolation garden to move the population to potato leaf in entirety. I think I only had one regular leaf mother- the hand cross and that was the source of most the RL seedlings. A decent number of RL plants throughout though. Shows that if I mix the Potato leaf PL with something like a RL wild tomato I should get some natural crosses.
I just did a round of crossing in the garden. I mostly used pollen from the currant tomato PI 129143 one of the 10 or so accessions I got for the brown rugose fruit virus readiness subproject. I crossed first with the older transplant tomatoes and noticed that a cross of PI 129143 likely from last week with MMM x BAG F3 as the mother likely took. My domestic late planted crossing row is starting to bloom. I was disappointed that none of these crossed had a wild component. So the plan was to go down the row and add wildness to it and I made many crossing attempts today with PI129143 but it strikes me that any successful crosses from them will potentially be overshadowed by the first cross I mentioned which has the most potential for fanciness in the F2! I also worked on crosses with the Kentucky material for arthropod resistance and a dwarf Payette descendent with 1/4 LA1375 I selected from the F2 for dwarfing over the winter. At least a few have taken.
Looks like I have nine more takes from past weekends of crossing. Which brings my total up to 18 new crosses should all survive to harvest with the deer this year.
500 x LA1385
500 is likely Dwarf Johnson's Cherry x 303 and 303 is MMM x LA1375 currant x MMM x PH5 currant. LA1385 is for the Brown Rugose Fruit Virus readiness sub-project. MMM is my Mission Mountain Sunrise Crossed to HX-9 and HX-9 is also known as Big Hill.
SG-87 x LA1385
Where SG-87 is an arthropod resistant line from Kentucky.
SH-13 x LA1385
Where SG-97 is an arthropod resistant line from Kentucky.
Beaverlodge 6808 x 314
Where the Beaverlodge series is from Alberta and 314 is Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
504 x 366 dwarf
504 is Glacier x 320 MMS x (MMM x LA1375) and 366 is Payette x (MMM x LA1375)
497 x PI 129143
497 is Puerto Cortes x 303 (MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375) and PI 129143 is for Brown Rugose Fruit Virus.
355 x 505
355 is (MMM x LA1375) x (MMM x galapagense X) and 505 is 348 x 319 where 348 is Galahad F1 x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1) and 319 is (MMM X GalapagenseX) X (MMM x LA2329). LA2329 is the source accession for arthropod resistance.
4-157 x 366 dwarf
Where 4-157 is an arthropod resistance line and 366 dwarf is Payette x (MMM x LA1375)
294
(MMM X BAG)F3 x PI 129143
Where 294 is MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape selected for green when ripe, stripes, and anthocyanin and PI 129143 is for the Brown Rugose Fruit Virus resistance or tolerance.
7/3/2025 Eight more takes:
500 x PI 129143
Where 500 is Dwarf Johnson's Cherry x 303. 303 is ¼ LA1375 for brown rugose fruit virus and ¼ PH5 pimp for LB resistance. PI 129143 is for brown rugose fruit virus
508 x 505
508 is 366 x 358 with 366 and 358 being different Payette crosses. 505 is 348 x 319 with 348 being a cross with Galahad F1 and Purple Zebra F1, and 319 being a cross with LA2329 habrochaites.
494 x PI 129143
Where 494 is a Galapagos Pear x 303 cross
342 x PI 129143
Where 342 is a Sandpoint cross
513 x 366 dwarf
Where 513 is a Nodak Early x 303
298 x 284
Where 298 is a cross involving both PH5 and Purple Zebra and 284 is MMM x PH5. So kind of a little back cross to 284.
Marchenengel x LA1385
Where Marchenengel is a very nice looking OSS variety similar in appearance to Amethyst Cream.
Home Stoop x LA1385
Where Home Stoop is an OSSI cross between Homestead from Florida and Stupice.
That brings it to 25 barring little disasters between now and ripe fruit.
I made new cross attempts today with 366 dwarf, 303, 283, and a few others. I might need to cool it with LA1385 and PI 129143 or I may have an awful lot of red tomatoes. Though the crosses I've listed as takes may be joined by many other attempts once they have been confirmed. 303 I used heavily last year. It has segregated back to the blue bicolor potato leaf type I've used so heavily. It would probably be better to return to the F1 or F2 of 303 in terms of potential resistances but it is fun to have the colored version.
New Takes
1. 333 x 303 where 333 is Farthest North x (Mission Mountain Morning (MMM) X Aztek) and 303 is ½ MMM and ¼ each of the PH5 pimp and LA1375. This combo has a decent potential for good colors like blue skin and bicolor or yellow.
2. 359 x 303 Where 359 is Golden Bison x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette). This could lead to a blue bicolor or a blue yellow tomato.
3. 309 x 303 Where 309 is Fruity x (MMM x Aztek). This could be an interesting blue / yellow cherry.
4. 346 x 303 Where 346 is Fisher's Mountain Boy x (MMM x Aztek).
5. 324 x 303 Where 324 is Exserted Orange (EO) x (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape (BAG). With no red in this pedigree the result could be good.
6. 344 x PI 129143 Where 344 is (yellow tiger aka Blue Ambrosia x Amurski Tigr) x (MMM x Aztek) and PI 129143 is a wild current tomato. Which could be a promising combination.
7. 368 x 303 where 368 is EO x (MMM x Aztek)
8. 299 x PI 129143 Where 299 is Fisher's Prairie Fire x EO
9. 301 x LA0410 where 301 is Exserted Tiger (ET) x EO and LA0410 is a accession I requested for its odd flower- though mine has a normal flower.
10. 310 x 283 where 310 is Fruity x Exserted Orange and 283 is MMM x LA 1375
11. 310 x PI 129143
12. 310 x 366 dwarf where 366 dwarf is Payette x (MMM x LA1375)
13. 328 x PI 129143 where 328 is Yellow Tiger x (MMM x BAG)
14. 352 x PI 129143 Where 351 is McClintock x (MMM x Aztek).
15. 332 x PI 129143 Where 332 is Exserted Tiger x (MMM x BAG)
16. 322 pl x 366 dwarf Where 322 is Amethyst Cream is MMM
17. 329 x 366 dwarf where 329 is Muddy Waters x (MMM x Aztek)
18. 329 x PI 129143
19. 339 x LA0410 Where 339 is The One (Lofthouse Promiscuous selection) x MM
20. 500 x LA0410 Where 500 is Dwarf Johnson's Cherry x 303
21. 501 x LA0410 Where 501 is (Dwarf Mochas x MMS) x 303
22. 340 x PI 129143 Where 340 is Flamenco x (MMM x (Galapagense X unknown))
23. 321 x 366 dwarf Where 321 is Sunviva x MMM
24. 497 x LA0410 where 497 is Puerto Cortez x 303
25. 499 x LA1385 Where 499 is Dwarf Moby's x 303
26. 499 x LA0410
27. 499 x PI 129143
28. 5-136 x 505 Where 5-136 is an arthropod resistant line and 505 is 348 x 319
29. 4-49 × 366 dwarf where 4-49 is an arthropod resistant line.
30. 515 x PI 129143 where 515 is 358 a Payette cross x 319 a arthropod resistance cross
31. 4-71A x PI 129143 where 4-71 is an arthropod resistance line.
32. 4-124 × PI 129143 where 4-124 is an arthropod resistance line.
33. 369 x 366 dwarf where 369 is Hoosier Rose x (MMM x LA1375)
34. Marchenengel x 366 dwarf where Marchenengel is an OSS variety with a white and blue cherry
35. Home Stoop x 366 dwarf where Home Stoop is a Stupice x Homestead OSSI variety
36. 303 x 366 dwarf
If I can count that looks to be 36 with 25 previous. Total of 61 then for 2025 so far.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2025-05-11, 02:02:39 PMUnfortunately I decided to jump the gun and plant some tomatoes I don't think are hardened off. I planted them and then pulled some weeds to shade them. Hope it works.
I forgot to properly harden some of mine this year until they were already planted.
I arranged some buckets, wheelbarrow, and other minor stuff to shade them as much as possible for the first hour or so
I seem to have gotten away with it
I got away with my piling weeds as well.
I got four ripening tomatoes this weekend to save seed from two each from 302 (MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375) and 306 (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x (MMM x LA1375). They don't look like particularly exciting segregants so far. Not sure what filial generation they are.
I was trying to figure out what real progress I have made towards fruity crosses and I came up with the following core list:
293 MMM x (Galapagense x Unknown)
296 Exserted Orange (EO) x Anmore Dewdrop which might lead to extra early orange exserted offspring.
299 Fisher's Prairie Fire x EO
301 ET no stripes x EO
307 (MMM x Aztek non dwarf F2) x EO
309 Fruity x (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
310 Fruity x Exserted Orange + a second dip with (MMM x Aztek non dwarf)
314 Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
315 Farthest North x EO
318 Yellow Tiger no blue x EO
321 Sunviva x MMMF3
324 EO x (MMM X BAG)
330 (MMM x Aztek Dwarf) X Exserted Orange
336 MMR Dwarf bicolor no blue x EO
339 The One! X MM
351 Fruity x Fuzzy AND Fuzzy x Fruity
367 EO x (MMM x (Promiscuous x LA2329))
368 EO x MMR dwarf
494 Galapagos Pear x 303
I have some other Galapagense crosses of crosses but the dilution is too great to reasonably expect any fruity traits to show up. Though it is also possible that fruity notes could show up in some of my other lines or from crosses where I don't necessarily expect them to show up for instance everything descended from my initial cross with Blue Ambrosia could maybe show up as fruity somewhere down the line because Blue Ambrosia is a cross Lee Goodwin made with a Sungold desegregation project he did.
I'll be following this to see what happens with the fruity cross progress. I also am considering Sunviva and Dwarf Eagle Smiley to trial next year for my fruity project, so it's good to see you've also included them in your crosses.
I put 302 and 306 seeds in to ferment last night. 302 has segregated back to bicolor with mild flavor and 306 is a red tomato. Grown under the greenhouse bench so not enough light to activate anthocyanin skin if it is present.
302 (MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
306 (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x (MMM x LA1375).
I picked fruit tonight for:
504 x LA1385 New F1 where 504 is: Glacier x 320 MMS x (MMM x LA1375) and both LA1385 and LA1375 are for tolerance or resistance to brown rugose fruit virus.
500 x LA1385 New F1 where 500 is Dwarf Johnson's Cherry x 303 and 303 is a blue bicolor with 50% current tomato but half of that from LA1375 and half from the PH5 pimp
314 which is Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
286 which is Dwarf Gloria's Treat x Pimps
298 which is (MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
New cross takes for:
503 x PI 129143 new where 503 is MMR Dwarf x (Gloria's Treat x Current) and PI 129143 is for the brown rugose fruit virus
302 x 366 dwarf new where 302 is (MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375) and 366 is a dwarf descended from Payette and LA1375
497 x 366 dwarf new where 497 is Puerto Cortes x 303
321 x LA1385 New where 321 is Sunviva x MMMF3 making it both OSS and OSSI descended.
321 x PI 129143 new
501 x LA1385 New where 501 is Dwarf Mocha's x (MMS x 303)
314 x P1 129143 new
Which makes for 68 takes for the year and I am likely to lose count. I am also likely to stop crossing soon to focus on seed saving as that ramps up.
I decided to finally try anther scraping today on my 356 line because it isn't setting fruit and it doesn't release pollen. I quickly found that I could open the anther cone by separating anthers and then use a pollination tool to dump the pollen onto a black plastic spoon. I tried it again on one of the Kentucky arthropod resistant lines and it worked again.
On another related note, I finished off a box I started last year of 1000 paper and string price tags for labeling crosses today and started another box.
I should stop making cross attempts soon.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2025-07-18, 07:36:13 AM302 has segregated back to bicolor with mild flavor and 306 is a red tomato. Grown under the greenhouse bench so not enough light to activate anthocyanin skin if it is present.
302 (MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
306 (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) x (MMM x LA1375).
FWIW, William, the MMR x Aztek I am growing this year has produced four or five healthy plants, and having planted saved seed only from the very dark fruit plant with a dark stem, they appear to be breeding true as high anthocyanin.
All plants are dark stem with dark fruit. I am not certain yet, but I don't think they are dwarves.
Quote from: Cathy A on 2025-07-20, 07:46:33 PMFWIW, William, the MMR x Aztek I am growing this year has produced four or five healthy plants, and having planted saved seed only from the very dark fruit plant with a dark stem, they appear to be breeding true as high anthocyanin.
All plants are dark stem with dark fruit. I am not certain yet, but I don't think they are dwarves.
Had to google FWIW! It's good to hear that line is doing well, maybe a dwarf will show up for you yet. I probably do have a dwarf sub-line of it sitting around somewhere in an envelope. I don't think I grew it out this year because I made so many crosses with it, but I did grow out a number of crosses with it to make crosses with. I think a lot of them were lacking a wild parent in my Local x Fancy x Wild equation.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2025-07-20, 02:18:48 PMI decided to finally try anther scraping today on my 356 line because it isn't setting fruit and it doesn't release pollen. I quickly found that I could open the anther cone by separating anthers and then use a pollination tool to dump the pollen onto a black plastic spoon. I tried it again on one of the Kentucky arthropod resistant lines and it worked again.
These articles are relevant:
https://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/pollinating
https://workingfood.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Hand-Pollination-Tomatoes.pdf
Seems totally legit to remove whole anther cones, dry them out a bit, then extract the pollen. I reckon that splitting them in half might help. I wonder if they could be shaken on a small screen into a funnel and the pollen collected in a little container. Or even just place a strainer over a funnel and shake the pollen through to a waiting receptacle?
Thank you William!
This method seem also efficient i i want use a cherry variety as mother and a variety with very big anther as father.
Colored twist ties is efficient for marqued the flower?
If the weather is hot and sunny is there a risq to have condensation and developped some bacteries on the peduncle?
For mark the flowers i have a less expansive method!
For avoid to hurth the rod of the flower i make a twin loose knot with raffia for grafting.
Harvested the pollen seem very efficient but take a lot of time.
I glide directely rhe anther cone on the emaculated pistil and i shaked the flower many times at differents moments of the days.When i picked the flower i'm not sure that she will liberated of pollen but she can be liberated that some hours later after my pollinisation.I repeat the operation txo times on 2 days.
The alone problem is when rhe mother variety has a very thin pistil.A thin pistil can broken very easily.
I use price tags- the kind with string to hang them from to mark my crosses.
I've used the anther cone transplant method before.
I have had extreme troubles with fragile styles in the past. This year I seem to be doing very well not breaking them so far- I do break some, but I think that I am getting better at not breaking them perhaps. However, I didn't grow LA1410 the Solanum galapagense accession I would very much like to cross with. I wish I had some handy I would like to try it again for crosses.
Here's what I typically do. Micro dwarf tomatoes have incredibly thin and delicate pistils. You need a really steady hand and practice a lot:
https://imgur.com/a/n7dMqL3#zS2UqiN
Quote from: KaguyaCloud on 2025-07-22, 06:12:53 PMHere's what I typically do. Micro dwarf tomatoes have incredibly thin and delicate pistils. You need a really steady hand and practice a lot:
https://imgur.com/a/n7dMqL3#zS2UqiN
I use a much finer forcep. I have a number of pairs https://www.amazon.com/Microdissection-Forceps-Set/dp/B00RKFX36Q
I think my current favorite is the center one in this set. It is gently curved. I've used straighter and more strongly curved ones.
This weekend I was using my botanical teasing needles similar to these: https://www.amazon.com/ArtLab-Pack-Dissecting-Dissection-Teasing-Straight/dp/B0BTN11BXV
I noticed that in the TGRC tutorial they used an arrow shaped teasing needle. So, I bought one- and it arrived already- but I suspect it is too large for anthers. Correct shape- wrong size. Annoying because I didn't like how little pollen could be held on the tip of the slender metal teasing needle. Your plastic model doesn't look better. I liked that I was able to open the anthers and revert to my pollen spoon methodology. It allowed me to make a large number of cross attempts with pollen that was previously inaccessible to me. I hope to do more next weekend now that I've got the ability to work with some of these pollen parents, I previously couldn't extract pollen from- but I think I need to cut myself off at the end of the month, stop crossing, and just let fruits mature and process them into seed.
Here are some photos I took of my usual crossing method.
New tomatoes picked for seed tonight include:
LA1385 x 306 new F1 this will likely be a small red tomato.
339 x LA1385 New F1 where 339 is The One x MM and the fruit is a blue bicolor.
360 which is 1/4 purple Zebra and 1/8 galapagense but the fruit is a blue bicolor
513 which is I think Nodak Early x 303 and thus 1/4 current tomato. The F1 has the anthocyanin. Seed will be F2.
Crossing today. Finally got some pollen from line 511 which is (Dwarf Mocha's x MMS) x PI 390714 brown rugose true resistant pimp. So finally making some crosses with it. Left the flowers on the plant to produce fruit.
Number 360
Number 339 the one x MM
Have just put these in to ferment:
504 x LA1385 New F1 where 504 is: Glacier x 320 MMS x (MMM x LA1375) and both LA1385 and LA1375 are for tolerance or resistance to brown rugose fruit virus.
500 x LA1385 New F1 where 500 is Dwarf Johnson's Cherry x 303 and 303 is a blue bicolor with 50% current tomato but half of that from LA1375 and half from the PH5 pimp
314 which is Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
286 which is Dwarf Gloria's Treat x Pimps
298 which is (MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
LA1385 x 306 new F1 this will likely be a small red tomato.
339 x LA1385 New F1 where 339 is The One x MM and the fruit is a blue bicolor.
360 which is 1/4 purple Zebra and 1/8 galapagense but the fruit is a blue bicolor
513 which is I think Nodak Early x 303 and thus 1/4 current tomato. The F1 has the anthocyanin. Seed will be F2.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2025-07-24, 07:35:41 PMHere are some photos I took of my usual crossing method.
Here are images of how I emasculate the flowers without breaking the extremely delicate pistils on micros.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/753082907727233184/1399556877272223784/IMG_6892.jpg?ex=68896e6a&is=68881cea&hm=19ce9eb43e974426b1f154850c4ccc881d376000facb81414583af8a7b2fda27&)(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/753082907727233184/1399556877498449980/IMG_6897.jpg?ex=68896e6a&is=68881cea&hm=febab70cb191ea03032ad31517f4aa094e49d8203340ac417337116ce9f84424&)(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/753082907727233184/1399556877939113994/IMG_6899.jpg?ex=68896e6a&is=68881cea&hm=976a34cd74dcc437d034387f42c9ed40dcb22f0aaa358bd314d6d3b17c2e0834&)(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/753082907727233184/1399556878475726868/IMG_6901.jpg?ex=68896e6a&is=68881cea&hm=f34c7dd1e13d4e49fc1018be9c7084654cf13ff06b0b61253874bb9153a63593&)(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/753082907727233184/1399556879658782831/IMG_6905.jpg?ex=68896e6a&is=68881cea&hm=4786eb7e0911f42a73fcd12fb17cbd1676b1693a163eb438837d058dbbbcd653&)(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/753082907727233184/1399556880266825809/IMG_6907.jpg?ex=68896e6a&is=68881cea&hm=68ecd811e579032f74ea3165fe94a5a457a5fa1bdeaa56ca9eb7e0852d4d9d0f&)(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/753082907727233184/1399556881348821012/IMG_6909.jpg?ex=68896e6b&is=68881ceb&hm=d909e427db7ad5ccdd414bb82a47d64807f34384325110a338643e0550598fec&)
New takes last night and this morning:
LA0410 x 284
LA0410 x PI 129143
LA0410 X 303
LA0410 x 314 (tag broken off string- fixed)
LA0410 x 366 dwarf
LA0410 x Cosmic Purple Rain
LA0410 x 283
LA0410 x 4-72
294 x 314 where 294 is MMM x BAG
294 x 511
294 x 284
294 x 303 ??
500 x 314
500 x 356
500 x 283
339 x 356 where 339 is The One x MM
339 x 283
339 x 303
339 x PI 129143
Matt's wild x 314
4-72 x 314
4-72 x 356
4-72 x 366 dwarf
4-72 x 303
4-72 x 511
4-72 x SI promiscuous
4-74 X 366 dwarf
5-69 x PI 129143
306 x SI promiscuous
306 x 4-153
369 x 4-153
298 x Cosmic Purple Rain
I gave up on updating but my count of takes is now 112 for 2025: see next post.
Picked this weekend:
New F1's
298 x LA1385
314 x LA1385
499 x LA1385
Beaverlodge 6808 x LA1385
514 x 505
355 x 505
SG-87 x 366 dwarf
497 x PI 129143
4-157 × 366 dwarf
340 x LA1385
294 x PI 129143
504 x 366
For Seed to advance filial generation:
513
286
497
509
502
500
355
340
334
501
342 dwarf
284
I also attempted some six crosses with Golden Tresette pollen in the greenhouse. I wanted to use Golden tressette a but this year and it just got big enough to produce some pollen. Then did about the same with my 493 line Black Bumblebee x 319 ((MMM X GalapagenseX) X (MMM x LA2329)) because it's failing to set fruit.
2025 crosses looks like 115 after some more checking.
293 x 366 dwarf
294 (MMM x BAG) x PI 129143
294 x 314
294 x 511
294 x 284
294 x 303
298 x 284
298 x LA1385
298 x Cosmic Purple Rain
299 x PI 129143
301 x LA0410
302 x 366 dwarf
303 x 366 dwarf
303 x 511
306 x SI promiscuous
306 x 4-153
309 x 303
310 x 283 where 310 is Fruity x Exserted Orange and 283 is MMM x LA1375
310 x 366 dwarf 310 is Fruity x Exserted Orange
310 x PI 129143
314 x LA1385
314 x P1 129143 new
321 x 366 dwarf
321 x LA1385 New
321 x PI 129143 new
321 x 303 is sunviva cross
322 pl x 366 dwarf
324 x 303
328 x PI 129143
329 x 366 dwarf
329 x PI 129143
332 x PI 129143
333 x 303
336 x LA1385
339 x LA1385
339 x LA0410
339 x 356
339 x 283
339 x 303
339 x PI 129143
340 x PI 129143
342 x PI 129143
344 x PI 129143
346 x 303
352 x PI 129143
355 x 505
359 x 303
368 x 303
369 x 366 dwarf
369 x 4-153
4-124 × PI 129143
4-157 x 366 dwarf
4-49 × 366 dwarf
4-71A x PI 129143
4-72 x 314
4-72 x 356
4-72 x 366
4-72 x 303
4-72 x 511
4-72 x SI promiscuous
4-74 x 366 dwarf
4-94 × 366 dwarf
494 x PI 129143
494 x 366 dwarf
494 x 314
494 x 303
497 x 366 dwarf
497 x LA0410
497 x PI 129147
499 x LA0410
499 x LA1385
499 x PI 129143
5-136 x 505
500 x LA0410 where 500 is Dwarf Johnsons cherry x 303
500 x LA1385
500 x PI 129143
500 x 314
500 x 356
500 x 283
500 x Marchenwald
501 x LA0410
501 x LA1385 New
503 x PI 129143 new
504 x 366 dwarf
504 x LA1385
508 x 505
513 x 366 dwarf
515 x PI 129143
5-69 x PI 129143
Beaverlodge 6808 x 314
Beaverlodge 6808 x LA1385
Cosmic Purple Rain x 366 Dwarf
Cosmic Purple Rain x 511
Home Stoop x 366 dwarf
Home Stoop x LA1385
LA0410 x 284
LA0410 X PI129143
LA0410 X 303
LA0410 X 314 (Broken String on tag needs fixed)
LA0410 x 366 dwarf
LA0410 X Cosmic Purple Rain
LA0410 x 283
LA0410 x 4-72
LA1385 x 306
Marchenengel x 366 dwarf
Marchenengel x LA1385
Matt's Wild x 314
PI 129143 x 303
PI 129143 x 283
Promiscuous x 366 dwarf
SG-87 × 366 dwarf
SG-87 x LA1385
SH-13 x 366 dwarf
SH-13 x LA1385
Some thoughts on some lines with parents with superior flavor:
286 or F3 Dwarf Gloria's Treat x Pimps. Notes say from orange or dark yellow mother with good flavor and a favorite.
339 The One. Mother was my favorite a rugose potato leaf dwarf with high anthocyanin expression and good flavor.
314 F2 Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x LA1375) 1/2 strength antho. Very promising flavor in F1.
My 339 line is nearing a finished variety. All that remains is to keep choosing best flavor. I may not have much seed though based on the apparent productivity of the plants.
314 deserves a larger F2 I tasted my plant and it is nicely sweet but has lost complexity.
286 I just tasted and put some seed in to ferment. It really is a Dwarf Gloria's Treat flavored cherry tomato. Very good flavor. This year's plant is not a dwarf. I regret not making crosses with it this year. It is in a corner of the crossing greenhouse behind a giant tomato plant. Maybe next weekend.
I'm very intrigued also by my crosses that are going after the best green when ripe flavor. Brad's Atomic Grape produced that flavor for me last year in some selections of an domestic F2 grow out of line 294 which is MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape and now I've made some exciting crosses with those selections and wild tomatoes. I've done the same with the 339 line above and I imagine that I'll soon be crossing the results!
New crosses with 294
294 (MMM x BAG) x PI 129143
294 x 314
294 x 511
294 x 284
294 x 303
New crosses with 339
339 x LA1385
339 x LA0410
339 x 356
339 x 283
339 x 303
339 x PI 129143
Fun new crosses which have wild or indigenous cytoplasm.
497 x 366 dwarf 37.5%
497 x LA0410 87.5%
497 x PI 129147 87.5%
LA0410 x 283 75%
LA0410 x 284 75%
LA0410 X 303 75%
LA0410 X 314 75%
LA0410 x 366 dwarf 62.5%
LA0410 x 4-72 50%
LA0410 X Cosmic Purple Rain 50%
LA0410 X PI129143 100%
LA1385 x 306 62.5%
Matt's Wild x 314 75%
PI 129143 x 283 75%
PI 129143 x 303 75%
Older crosses:
497 is Puerto Cortez x 303 and 75% germplasm.
Galapagense x Unknown is 50% germplasm. I should grow it out and make more crosses with it.
Future crosses:
This list was so exciting that I went out today and made some more cross attempts with LA0410 and 339 The One x MM (six attempts which would be 56.25% germplasm) and 294 MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape (5 attempts which would be 50%) as I am particularly excited about crosses with those lines for flavor and fanciness. Though I think I have some of the reverse crosses already.
Joseph Lofthouse recently posted on Facebook about a fun new cross in his garden via bees which might likely be Solanum cheesemanii x hummingbird. I would reckon that to be about 80% germplasm and with wild cytoplasm.
Lines like these stabilized and segregated for a few years then crossed back to wild tomatoes could lead to some really fun new currant and cherry tomatoes that have really high percentages of germplasm.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-07-23, 12:08:26 AMEFN sells Joseph's Brad so you've got the right strain. Though you might want to go back to the original packet when you try again. I found a RL Brad once from a cross in an original packet so some crossing and instability might occasionally occur.
Hi William, following your advice last year (#267) I grew four plants of 'Brad' this season, from the original packet. Non of the plants are producing gold spotted fruit....... Should I take it up with EFN?
Tim DH
Quote from: Tim DH on 2025-08-10, 03:06:51 PMHi William, following your advice last year (#267) I grew four plants of 'Brad' this season, from the original packet. Non of the plants are producing gold spotted fruit....... Should I take it up with EFN?
Tim DH
Interesting! I haven't grown Brad in a while but I'm not sure how consistent the trait is. It has occasionally popped up in segregants in my garden. There are other sources of the gold spotted trait so maybe look elsewhere? I think Dark Galaxy bred by Brad Gates might have them.
I have a baker's dozen new F1's to process into seed after this weekend's picking. Also 15 more lines to seed save from. So will have 29 new F1's saved and 35 of my existing lines saved by the end of the week.
Highlights include 339 x LA0410, 339 x LA1385, and 294 x PI 129143 where 339 is The One x MM and 294 is a green when ripe antho striped selection of MMM x BAG. These crosses bring in exciting colors and flavors. I very much intend to cross the 294 F1's with the 339 F1's next year and perhaps again in subsequent years after some segregation to essentially repeat the wonderful segregation I got from MMM x BAG.
Got a single ripe red non-antho tomato from the one potato leaf plant of the hand cross section of The One x MM. It is parthenocarpic. Taste is good.
Congratulations!
Mostly I have found the parthenocarpic tomatoes to taste ghastly!
Hi William,
Thanks for the reply. .... My interest in Brad wasn't actually the gold spots, but its reported earliness. The plants I have grown from the EFN packet are not early, so in conjunction with the lack of gold spots I presume they are not actually Brad.
I would still like to add Brad into my 'Early F1' project, but I won't be using the EFN Brads!
If anyone knows how I can get hold of real 'Brad' seed please PM me!!
Tim DH
Quote from: Tim DH on 2025-08-16, 02:50:46 PMHi William,
Thanks for the reply. .... My interest in Brad wasn't actually the gold spots, but its reported earliness. The plants I have grown from the EFN packet are not early, so in conjunction with the lack of gold spots I presume they are not actually Brad.
I would still like to add Brad into my 'Early F1' project, but I won't be using the EFN Brads!
If anyone knows how I can get hold of real 'Brad' seed please PM me!!
Tim DH
Tim: Joseph who nicknamed the plant Brad has been offering it exclusively through them for several years now. It is the real Brad. Maybe its just not monophyletic or as early as your current breeding material.
My Mission Mountain Sunrise is likely a Brad x Blue Gold cross and is a very early tomato.
I've saved 115 new crosses and have quite a few more at various stages from green on the vine to drying on a paper plate.
Up to 138 crosses saved in my spreadsheet. Though I may have spotted a duplicate I can't find again. More waiting to be saved or still on the plants but it is getting so close to the end.
I have made a family of crosses this year with the South American indigenous tomato variety I got from the USDA but use the shorter accession number from TGRC for: LA0410. On the TGRC website I noticed it had bizarre flowers with many stigmas. The survivors, perhaps of long storage, in my garden had normal flowers with somewhat long stigmas causing them to be exserted from the anther cone. My favorite survivor of the two also survived a first frost and most of the following crosses are with it. Percentages stated below are of recent indigenous and wild ancestry in each cross.
301 (EO x ET) Orange x LA0410 exserted 50%
This cross is with an orange mother plant of a Exserted Orange x Exserted Tiger cross.
321 x LA0410 50%
321 is my cross between Sunviva from the European Open Source Seed and Mission Mountain Morning my cross with Big Hill HX-9 an OSSI tomato bred by Joseph Lofthouse.
339 x LA0410 No Anthocyanin Flavor Ok 56.25%
339 is The One x MM a potato leaf rugose dwarf fusion of Big Hill descended Lofthouse Promiscuous project and my Mission Mountain series.
497 x LA0410 87.5%
497 is Puerto Cortes from EFN crossed with 303 my potato leaf bicolor cherry in the Mission Mountain Series with 25% LA1375 for brown rugose virus and 25% PH5 though it would contribute 12.5% of each for this cross.
499 Yellow Anthocyanin x LA0410 62.5%
Where 499 is Dwarf Moby's OSSI dwarf x 303
500 red x LA0410 75%
500 is Dwarf Johnson's Cherry (A OSSI cross with Everglades current) x 303
501 Blue Bicolor x LA 0410 62.5%
501 is Mocha's x MMS x 303
LA 0410 x 283 75% and red
283 is MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375
LA 0410 x 284 75% and red
284 is MMM x LB PH5 Pimp
LA 0410 x 286 75% tasty bicolor cherry parent
Where 286 is Dwarf Glorias Treat x either PH5 or LA1375
LA 0410 x 294 GWR Anthocyanin Striped 50%
Where 294 is Mission Mountain Morning x Brad's Atomic Grape
LA 0410 x 303 PL Blue Bicolor 75%
303 my potato leaf bicolor cherry in the Mission Mountain Series with 25% LA1375 for brown rugose virus and 25% PH5 though it would contribute 12.5% of each for this cross.
LA 0410 x 314 75% with yellow parent
Where 314 is my cross with Dwarf Eagle Smiley itself a OSSI 50% current tomato cross from the Dwarf Tomato Project. 314 is Dwarf Eagle Smiley x (MMM x Brown Rugose LA1375)
LA 0410 x 339 56.25%
Reverse cross: 339 is The One x MM a potato leaf rugose dwarf fusion of Big Hill descended Lofthouse Promiscuous project and my Mission Mountain series.
LA 0410 x 366 Dwarf 62.5%
366 is a dwarf Payette descended cross with 25% LA1375.
LA 0410 x 511 75%
511 was a F1 in 2025 with another brown rugose resistant pimp. (Dwarf Mocha's x MMS) x PI 390714 brown rugose true resistant pimp
LA 0410 x Cosmic Purple Rain 50%
Where Cosmic Purple Rain is the work of Casey Piscura and this is the start of a breeding line to honor him and his work.
LA 0410 x Golden Tressette 50%
Where Golden Tressette is the work of Alan Kapuler and the start of a breeding line to honor him and his work.
LA 0410 x PI 129143 100%
Where PI 129143 is a brown rugose resistant or tolerant pimp.
MT tomato Inventory # 651
F1 LA 0410 x 294 GWR Anthocyanin Striped 50%
Where 294 is Mission Mountain Morning x Brad's Atomic Grape
I planted eight fresh fermented but never dried seeds of this cross October 14th for a winter generation to try to get to F2 seed faster. I would like to get this segregated back to GWR anthocyanin striped asap for further crossing.
Also, I numbered the new crosses today. So, this one is number 651 in my tomato inventory which also includes many varieties I've collected.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2025-10-15, 06:51:03 AMI planted eight fresh fermented but never dried seeds of this cross October 14th for a winter generation to try to get to F2 seed faster. I would like to get this segregated back to GWR anthocyanin striped asap for further crossing.
I have three germinated of the eight seeds I planted.
I also just took some little cuttings from the patio plants. Somehow they are still alive despite frosts so far. A fact that has me intrigued enough to take some cuttings.
https://store.experimentalfarmnetwork.org/collections/new-for-2027/products/mission-mountain-ii-cherry-saladette-tomato-grex
Congratulations William, on getting some of your work 'Out There'.
The explanatory note is great. I'm sure you've told us all that before, but having it all together in one place helpful.
Incidentally, the link you posted says 'new for 2027'! Fortunately the page itself says new for 2026, so the world doesn't have to wait another year!!
Tim DH
Also I've never been to Wisconsin!
Ha! That's funny. ...
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2025-10-26, 05:34:20 PMI have three germinated of the eight seeds I planted.
I also just took some little cuttings from the patio plants. Somehow they are still alive despite frosts so far. A fact that has me intrigued enough to take some cuttings.
I have one surviving tomato seedling. The cuttings grew and died. Not a great winter effort overall.
Quote from: Jade Arrowleaf on 2025-06-19, 04:16:28 PMHave got fruit formation on one, just 62 days from seed! Mostly outdoors, still in a ~2gal. pot.
It is from a 2024 cross that appears successful: Northern Light X Mission Mountain Grex
...
This offspring is potato-leaf and every flower so far exserted. Just been manually self-crossing as it is a bit ahead of all the others.
Was quite pleased with this plant! Fully-mature fruit from seed in 90 days with adverse conditions. Antho shoulders, larger fruit(still fas) and appeared SI with every flower exserted. Manual self and other crosses sown for this year. Feels like progress toward a fast and productive line for the farmer's market adapted to my situation.
I planted forty tomato lines today 4-10-2026 in a little flat with small cells. I think this will be it for transplants this year. I hope to transplant them into larger pots when they outgrow this flat though.
Beyond this I hope to do some direct seeding.
Direct seeded some of my 50% and greater indigenous and wild tomatoes into cow pots today to try to tell them from volunteers. Double labeled them because the animals sometimes mess with the labels. Will see. Want to grow more of the lines in that category. Leaving the transplants in the greenhouse another week to get bigger and hopefully survive transplant better. Did some larger scale direct seeding of promiscuous and fancy domestic lines. Planted three hybrid tomatoes from the store for possible crossing and some early tomatoes, though suspect they will get sun bleached and possibly frosted: sungold, sunsugar, and bush early girl. Neighbor rototilled for me with a tractor.
Planted my main group of transplants today. About 50 mainly clumps of plants but some singles. The three hybrids I planted a few weeks ago froze pretty hard. I planted a Galahad and another Sunsugar today. I also weeded on the oldest rows of direct seeded tomatoes. I think frost thinned those nicely. Newer ones aren't up. Presumably the friendly neighbor dogs weren't nice to my cow pot direct seeding experiment- but one pot did sprout and more may yet. Some got dog obliterated. I do have 26 cells of wild and indigenous germplasm lines at the cotyledon stage to add to them in a few weeks.
I planted some more tomatoes. We are having quite the rain event, so I put out the small seedling clumps of the wild and indigenous tomatoes I got started late. They grew quite a lot in the greenhouse compared to the direct seeded tomatoes of approximately the same age that were out in the cold. This will be great though I think because everything will harden off nicely in the rain and get growing when the weather improves. There is too much perennial grass in the old, fenced garden where I planted everything. I replaced the Sungold I fed to the frost and added a Celebrity to replace the Bush Early Girl, but the latter is also resprouting from being frosted badly. I also bought and planted a Rose de Berne, a Black Cherry, and a Stupice. All varieties I have seed for but that I didn't grow myself- and which I would like to make crosses with if I get the chance!
Last Monday's frost definitely did some damage but it looks like most of the transplants will pull through. Almost all tomatoes in my garden except for any very late germinating direct seeded individuals will have experienced frost this year.
It's not all that uncommon here for very small volunteer sprouts to survive a frost. If they have managed to get two or three inches tall before the frost, none survive. I still haven't figured out what's up with that.
That matches my experience. They often survive at an inch high. Large transplants often resprout from the base especially if plenty of stem got buried. Three inches does seem like it would be in the kill zone.
All the direct seeded patches are ok but of course need a first good weeding. I made some progress on that today- but have a fence to build tomorrow. So more weeding next weekend. I guess the ones I get weeded will produce. I'll weed the most important first. Like I weeded Joseph's self incompatible tomatoes already.
Not enough time this weekend but we got the #339 the one x MM direct seeded garden weeded fairly well for a first go around. Found about five regular leaf crosses since I included seed from the one plant with good flavor in the mixed 2025 garden and weeded them out. I don't consider it to be very exserted but there is definitely still a small natural crossing rate which is good since it's nearly a finished variety. Though at only 12.5% wild I'll switch to its 56.25% descendant varieties soon. Though I plan to keep crossing it with various wild and indigenous breeding stock for now.
In the old fenced garden the number 365 tomato I selected last year looks odd. It might have something like curly top virus. No other line in the same garden has that look though so maybe its the only susceptible one.
Tomatoes are finally starting to bloom fairly well after the late frosts. It's also hot now. Will see how much fruit sets. Next weekend may be too hot for making crosses and I haven't started yet. Hopefully the summer will cool down a bit.
Bad hail damage last night. With the June eighth frost this is another serious setback. Plants will be ok. Currently pretty hot for fruit set. Will be a very late tomato crop.
Sorry to hear that, lots of folks having weather issues this year. So far so good here but hot and dry right now, small storms popping all around, but they have missed us.
The F3 of that Mr. Stripy cross you did for me was the first of the larger tomatoes to ripen this year. Phenotype of the plants is similar to last year but fruit on one plant not as sweet and delicious as the others, I culled it out so as not to accidentally save its seeds. The wife is staying with her mother for a couple days, by time she gets home we'll need to can tomatoes.
Oh it would be nice to have a ripe tomato!
Quote from: Jade Arrowleaf on 2026-04-07, 03:04:03 PM...fruit from seed in 90 days with adverse conditions. Antho shoulders, larger fruit(still fas) and appeared SI with every flower exserted. ...progress toward a fast and productive line for the farmer's market adapted to my situation.
Harvested first fruit of the season from one of these f2 plants. 110 days from seed, quite different conditions. Seems less antho and most fruits smaller this generation but close to every flower exserted so far. This one still so mutated that it enveloped the petals/sepals which left these stripe marks on the blossom-end.
Interesting tomato combination!
I got my first five tomatoes from three of the new 2025 F1's today. Plants that got some extra protection from a thick layer of sand for the June 8th frost. Cherry tomatoes.
I'm having serious doubts about my 2026 tomato garden. Just had deer hit the garden at the apartment. The garden land gardens seem to be small and far behind due to frost, hail, and perhaps heat and inadequate weeding. Time may not be on my side depending on when first frost chooses to come. Got seed tomatoes back from one additional cross this weekend. All protected from the June 8th frost by heat radiating from a thick sand layer- so not genetics. Interesting but frustrating 2026 results so far.
It really doesn't seem to be getting easier, does it?
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2026-08-02, 10:46:42 PMAll protected from the June 8th frost by heat radiating from a thick sand layer- so not genetics. Interesting but frustrating 2026 results so far.
That is a really important point that I think a lot of people don't take seriously enough. All sorts of little microclimates exist; random chance is pretty common too. I'm often wondering when I see something distinctive is whether its genetic or environmental.
When you just have one of something distinct, you indeed can't be sure whether it is distinctive because of genes instead of environment when the distinction is earliness or faster or more vigorous growth or bigger or smaller size.
There are some things you can check for, however. Is the plant at the end of a row or next to a space where the an adjacent plant failed so it had more space than most?
What about variable shade?
One thing I like to do is walk the rows the second day after (overhead) irrigation when most of the ground looks dry on top but some areas will appear damp, giving me a graphic indication of what is getting more water. And I compare the plants in the two kinds of soil to determine whether any of the planting is water-limited.
With tomatoes, if you have a distinct plant with a different color or shape, that is very likely to be genetic.
The environment has a huge influence on flavor of tomatoes in maritime Oregon. Professional produce handling says that tomatoes should not be refrigerated or stored at below 50 degrees F because it screws up flavor. Yet most market gardeners here pick their tomatoes early in the morning; our nights go down into the 60s almost every night. My observation is tomatoes here picked full ripe in the morning have less sweetness and an off flavor compared with those picked after they have had some sun. Some varieties even have a bitter flavor. In fact, the best flavor is obtained by picking the tomatoes one to three days or so before full ripe in the afternoon and bringing them indoors to ripen to perfect prime.
Quote from: reed on 2026-08-03, 07:57:51 AMIt really doesn't seem to be getting easier, does it?
Generally it is. Though have a lot of new F1s this year. Though almost regardless of adaptation this is just a challenging tomato year so far.
Carol,
I have learned that July and August are the best flavor months here. Sometimes in September and October the frost spares us now. However the cold doesn't let the same level of flavor develop. So I feel like a bad tomato grower this year.
The exception I've noticed is Black Cherry. I really want to make some crosses with it because it seems to have good flavor when cold. I bought a plant or two this year for that purpose. Though if I had two only one of them is still uneaten by deer!
One aspect of flavor has to do with the u gene. For uniform shoulders. One reason why most university and big seed company bred tomatoes are so tasteless is because they all have been chasing the fad of wanting uniform shoulders, that is, for example, a red tomato that is uniform red with no greenish shoulders. Uniform shoulders requires uu. When the plant is uu the chlorophyll in the green tomato is less, and when the chlorophyll lessens a bit during ripening there is too little chlorophyll to give the shoulders an off color. Apparently the chlorophyll in the tomato skin is needed for best flavor.
You may have noticed that all the heirlooms with the greatest flavor have distinctively off color shoulders.
A prof at one of the Florida universities studied the u gene and showed it causes a dramatic drop in sugar content as well as various "aromatics." And the u gene is cause, not mere correlation. When he used genetic engineering to knock out just theu gene, the sugar and aromatics dropped dramatically.
I suspect all my favorite varieties are relatively resistent to cold effects on growth, production, or flavor. For my early crop I use Stupice. It's a small red tomato up to about 2" across. The earliest tomato I know that has full flavor. For my pink tomato I use Pruden's Purple. About 1 lb. It has flavor just as good as Brandywine but is considerably earlier. Brandywine doesn't always ripen here. For my main crop red tomato I like Amish paste. It has great flavor raw even though a paste. My favorite tomato of all and favorite black is Black Krim. See photo below. All these are indeterminate. Stupice is determinate but smaller than most determinates. I plant it at 2' apart in the row, the rest at 4'.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/caroldeppe/15602875910/
Quote from: Carol Deppe on 2026-08-04, 07:35:31 AMOne aspect of flavor has to do with the u gene. For uniform shoulders. One reason why most university and big seed company bred tomatoes are so tasteless is because they all have been chasing the fad of wanting uniform shoulders, that is, for example, a red tomato that is uniform red with no greenish shoulders. Uniform shoulders requires uu. When the plant is uu the chlorophyll in the green tomato is less, and when the chlorophyll lessens a bit during ripening there is too little chlorophyll to give the shoulders an off color. Apparently the chlorophyll in the tomato skin is needed for best flavor.
You may have noticed that all the heirlooms with the greatest flavor have distinctively off color shoulders.
I suspect all my favorite varieties are relatively resistent to cold effects on growth, production, or flavor. For my early crop I use Stupice. It's a small red tomato up to about 2" across. The earliest tomato I know that has full flavor. For my pink tomato I use Pruden's Purple. About 1 lb. It has flavor just as good as Brandywine but is considerably earlier. Brandywine doesn't always ripen here. For my main crop red tomato I like Amish paste. It has great flavor raw even though a paste. My favorite tomato of all and favorite black is Black Krim. See photo below. All these are indeterminate. Stupice is determinate but smaller than most determinates. I plant it at 2' apart in the row, the rest at 4'.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/caroldeppe/15602875910/
The most part of black varietys are the mosts tasty but they give back a lot of water. If the weather is bad they can be rot before their maturity.
Black krim has a low vigor is the weather is too hot and the fruits caught easily the apical necrosis.
Thoses varietys can be improved for me. The better varietys for me was the black and pink descendants of a red variety x green giant.
Stupice is a well known good tomato here. I've underutilized it in my breeding so far. My mom really likes Black Krim. I think a lot of tomatoes that can be grown here including Amish Paste and Brandywine miss the optimal flavor window. I very much hope that I am breeding tomatoes that much more consistently hit that prime time.
I'm sure that uniform gene is mixed into my work because it's so ubiquitous. I'm also sure a lot of my lines don't have it because they don't ripen uniformly on the shoulders.
The line I've been chasing for flavor the longest has become a fusion of my and Joseph's work. Line 339 a blue bicolor potato leaf dwarf but every year it seems like they don't all have the best flavor. It's a mystery and I hope it ripens some fruit this year of the proper flavor so stabilization can continue. Though maybe it is possible that not everything can exist in a stable form?
Yes, it's true that not all phenotypes can be derived in stable (homozygous) forms from particular crosses. For example, if you have purebreeding red and white lines of an ornamental plant and the F1 flowers are pink and the F2 segregates as 1/4 red, 1/2 pink, and 1/4 white, that means in the contex of this cross, all the pinks are heterozygous and are not pure breeding, and can't be made to be pure breeding.
You may be able to get a pink some other way, though. Species that have had a lot of breeding work often have known color dilution genes.You might be able to get a pure breeding pink by crossing to something with a color dilution gene.
I have done tomato breeding, but not blue tomato breeding. So how complicated is the blue characteristic? If it involves multiple genes, you might find it hard to fix the trait, that is, make the trait pure breeding just for that reason. Tomato breeding has the advantage that it is much better known genetically than most vegetable crops. So just googling 'blue tomato genetics' produces the paper
https://horticulture.oregonstate.edu/oregon-vegetables/purple_tomato_faq
Which has a section
"What are the genes involved and where did they come from?
Aubergine (Abg), Anthocyanin fruit tomato (Aft) and atroviolaceae (atv) are genes introgressed from the wild species Solanum lycopersicoides, S. chilense, S. cheesemanii, respectively. The original introgression from wild species into cultivated tomato was done by other researchers. We discovered that when you combine these genes, you get an intensification of the pigment. The 'Purple Smudge' variety has a gene similar to Aft but it comes from a different wild species (S. peruvianum)."
So there are three genes involved, two dominant or codominant and one recessive. (In tomatoes, the convention is mutations are named for the way they differ from standard red indeterminate tomatoes, I forget exactly which variety. And the gene's symbol is given a capital letter if it is dominant or codominant. The standard allele is symbolized by the symbol with a superscript '+'.)
Next I would like to know whether the two genes with capital letter symbols are dominant or codominant. And if there is any way I can recognize the genes by looking at the seedlings before transplanting. Or tell which genes I have by looking at tomatoes.
So I google 'tomato gene list university of californis davis' because I already know and am familiar with that list and know it is maintained by UC-davis. But I would be able to find it just googling 'tomato gene list'. That works for most crops. So I get:
https://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/monogenic
This gets you a lot of info. To get the most recent version I
download the 'mutant phenotypes' excel list. There is more info on specific genes in the much older pdf lists, but blue tomatoes are fairly recent.
So I find out:
arv has 'excess anthocyanin on leaves, stems, and fruits.' Cool. I might be able to tell if I had homozygosity for that gene on the transplants. And I would be able to identify when the gene was present as a homozygote even if one or both the other genes were present, not just by somewhat more purple fruit, something perhaps difficult to evaluate given affects of sun making fruit color variable, but also by also by color of the leaves and stems, which only atv affects.
Aug and Aft: Gene list doesn't say whether dominant vs codominant. Both genes expressed most when exposed to direct sun. But Aft makes purple on both green and ripe fruit. That would be obvious. And Aug presumeably does not affect fruits at green stage but affects shoulders more than the rest. My guess is I would be able to tell whether I had Aug_ alone, or Aft_ alone or both together, but possibly not in the presence of atv atv.
The blue trait is complicated enough genetically that it would not necessarily be easy to get it fixed. But not impossible.
This is a situation in which it is especially useful to grow one or more plants of the two parental varieties and the F1 along with F2s so you can better figure out what F2 plants are genetically. It is also a situation in which selfing a number of individual F2s and then selfing your favorite plant from each Favorite F2, etc to develop inbred lines is more likely to give you pure breeding lines than just making crosses among the most blue/purple plants in the entire project. If you aim to have a variety that is fairly genetically heterogeneous for genes that don't effect the primary traits, you can get that by combining inbred lines afterwards.
If you cross with something involving pink tomatoes it is easiest to identify the presence of homozygosity for pink by pulling a bit of skin off the tomato. It will have a clear instead of yellowish skin.
Some genes affecting tomato color also affect the color of the pollen.
Cheers,
Carol
For the OSU Jim Myers lab blue which is what I've been breeding for for my entire project I've found the blue color to be quite easy to breed for. It's more complicated than if it were a single trait but effectively with a large enough grow out it almost always re-emerges for me. I've gotten it stable now or mostly stable again in many lines. Lines 294, 303, 339, and 365 have good blue and are frequently used for new crosses as such. I plan to use 303 for sort of like back crosses perhaps part sibling crosses is the term if I ever get around to crossing this summer.
Hi Carol,
Thanks for sharing your methodology. I'm not particularly interested in colour genetics itself, but I am interested in the process.
Tim DH
Tomato is the place where there is the most known. So this is a good example of what you can get out of that. Many people do fine breeding even tomatoes just from first principles. I pretty much operate just from first principles myself on corn, beans, squash, melons, and greens.
It is funny because I absolutely loved the graduate non-degree plant genetics course I took at Oregon State in 2011-2012 which was probably the culmination of genetics in high school, college, and reading plant breeding books like Carol's. Then in actual practice I just use the first principles. Very simple understandings like knowing that blue skinned tomatoes are likely a little bit partially expressed in the F1 and then segregate out in the F2 and subsequent years. In many ways a lot of my breeding is very simple. Though I do think I have grown out some F2's that were perhaps too large! If I did a little bit more planning I could have right sized my growing efforts. However, I also think that there is great value in some other techniques. As my skill at making crosses has gone up- and the number of my own crossed lines I'm growing as well. Now I think my new plan may be to grow a clump of each cross (maybe 10 or 20 plants of each line all in a clump), hope for a segregant I like- but also, I can cross with something like my line 303 that has already segregated back to one of the phenotypes I like- it is a blue bicolor potato leaf cherry. Then the odds are more in my favor that the cross with 303 will segregate back to that same phenotype in a small grow out. With my line 294 on the other hand, I want to do some larger grow outs of the F2 crosses with it. 294 has everything I want except for some genes from wild and indigenous tomatoes from mostly South America. So, my plan is simply to cross it with those and then get it to segregate back to its phenotype which is striped, green when ripe (with amazing flavor), and blue. When I crossed one of my blue bicolor lines with Brad's Atomic Grape to get 294 the F2 was amazing and had a lot of diversity. So, I know that once I get the 294 phenotype in a tomato that like 303 has everything I want, I can make lots of crosses with it and get a wide variety of fancy tomatoes in relatively small grow outs of each given line. I don't know if I stated that very clearly, but it is my plan to turn my 75 or so 50% or greater wild and indigenous lines into at least that many very fancy lines that meet all my criteria. Which can be summed up as: wild and indigenous x adapted x fancy x open source. Double crosses being necessary in all cases. This plan has gradually changed over the course of this project. For example, I've realized recently that one key thing of import is that I want my lines to contain at least 50% wild and indigenous genetics- and those mostly from South America. Last year's crosses made that a practical goal. Then my released lines and varieties should support the conservation of tomato genetic diversity for years to come while at the same time making the Montana tomato fancy and modern!
Tomato season is gradually picking up. Most of my plants still seem to mostly have leaves and flowers with little fruit. However seven F1 lines are producing ripe fruit.
Line 523 is an F1 of 294 x PI129143 and it has precisely one small red fruit with anthocyanin shoulders. The F2 seed within has the potential to produce some really wonderful cherry tomatoes. Given that 294 is a fancy tasty green when ripe with anthocyanin skin and stripes. The specific plant this cross was made on was potato leaf- which I find a helpful marker for cross takes.
I attempted as many as 55 unique crosses today and yesterday with my cherry tomato which is a blue bicolor potato leaf 50% wild accession currant tomato #303 as the father. My plan with this is to get lots more lines that are greater than 50% wild and indigenous and fancy. When the 294 descendants start to segregate next year I'll try to find a striped blue green when ripe to make crosses with. I know from the cross that got me 294 that the crosses between blue bicolors and striped blue skinned green when ripe tomatoes will be highly variable and exciting. I doubt all attempts will succeed but it was a good effort in a year I haven't had much time yet to attempt crosses. In some cases the mother was simply red genetics, in others there is already some fancy parentage and these will have a high potential to segregate to fancy types in 2027.
I've continued collecting tomatoes for seed and it looks like this latest picking is 18 F1s. Highlights include two crosses with 294 and one with the best tasting variant of 339. One of the more important goals next year will be to get fancy segregants from these 294 cross lines. So a larger growout!
From last weekend there are about 11 cross takes
I look forward to photos next year.
This year is not very photogenic being heavy on F1s with red tomatoes! Unless you like red cherry and saladette tomatoes some with a bit of blue skin already! So yes- 2027 will probably find me taking a lot more photographs! The 294 descended F2s should be nice!
I only have a couple 294 plants this year- mine arent ripe yet- though other folks are growing them and they look and taste great.
If some of the part sibling 303 crosses segregate back to blue bicolors next year that will be nice as well.
It's the blue and green stripes I'd like to see a photo of.
Just now I asked Google a question and AI answered. It was validating. I wanted to know how many seedlings to grow next year of my 294 green when ripe antho striped x currant and 294 green when ripe antho striped x mid sized red south American indigenous LA0410. The answer was 64 to 250 each. It then gave helpful follow up advice that should allow me to thin the direct seeded rows of seedlings without anthocyanin expression and again at fruit set- just thin out the plants without stripes. Since I want to select GWR antho striped plants in both cases. So basically I just need 500 plants. I likely already have enough seed from the currant cross, but need some more seed from the LA0410 cross. I think this will be a major focus of my 2027 gardens.
Though I should check the AI's math for the three traits involved at some point. It was very interesting that it could do that instantly. Though to be honest, last time I didn't do the math. I just devoted a whole direct seeded garden to the F2 that became 294. That cross was simpler though because both parents were mostly stable for anthocyanin. My main worry was that I had overdone the growout previously.
Quote from: Diane Whitehead on 2026-08-16, 10:43:14 PMIt's the blue and green stripes I'd like to see a photo of.
I have that of 294 somewhere.
Cross takes 2026
294 RL round x Punta Banda large
294 x 390717 very small
294 x 128445 large
294 x 158164 very small
129129 x 303 small
Andrew's pimp x 303 small
PH5 x 303 large
Chiapas x 303 large
Galahad x 129143 large
Stupice x LA1385 small
Black Cherry x LA1385 small
Texas wild cherry x 303 medium
294 PL plum x Punta Banda large
298 x Lyc859
298 x 390714
576 x 303 large
523 x 303 large
569 x 303 medium
550 x 303 large
662 x 303 large
669 x 303 large & small
655 x 303 large
587 x 303 large
635 x 303 large
667 x 303 large
Galx x 303 large
656 x 303 medium
650 x 303 small
Hopefully frost waits for these cross takes
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-09-11, 07:13:11 PMDefinitely green when ripe. Amazing flavor!!! Unexpected. Regular leaf.
This the 294? Click quote link to see pictures. 😅
Quote from: Jade Arrowleaf on 2026-08-29, 05:05:46 PMThis the 294?
I can't tell for sure without more context than that quote pulled from 2024. However, it seems possible. I'm not sure if there have been other green when ripes- and I wasn't expecting the GWR flavor to be as good as it is.
I believe I just put an adequate supply of #651 seed in to ferment in order to get a really decent population size in 2027. 651 is LA0410 x 294. The fruits have half strength anthocyanin, faint striping, and are red and of a good size. Most remarkably they have superior flavor in the F1!
I think the F2 will be a lot of fun. Not quite as exciting as the Mission Mountain Morning x Brad's Atomic Grape F2 that led to 294 but I think I can expect some excellent flavor, color, and fruit variations.
Saved Seed 08-30-2026
298
F3?
Small
Ok
Is a blue bicolor MMM X PZ X MMM X PH5
523
F2
Large Packet
More
294 GWR Antho Stripes x PI 129143
533
F2
Medium
Ok
EO X ET x LA0410
544
F2
Medium
Ok
310 Yellow Bicolor Good Flavor X 129143
550
F2
Large
Ok
321 Sunviva X X LA 1385
551
F2
Medium
Ok
321 (Sunviva X) X 129143
569
F2
Large Packet
More
339 Blue Bicolor Dwarf from Promiscuous Project Cross Best Flavor x LA1385
570
F2
Medium
Ok
339 mild x 129143
583
F2
Large
Ok
365 Blue Yellow Heart Reed Collaboration with some Purple Zebra x 129143
587
F2
Medium
Ok
4-124 x 129143
610
F2
Small
Ok
499 (Dwarf Moby's x 303) Yellow Antho x LA0410
623
F2
Large
Ok
501 Blue Bicolor x LA0410
635
F2
Small
Ok
515 (358 (Payette x MMM x Sweet Cherriette)X 319(MMM x Galapagense X X MMM X LA2329))Antho Bicolor x PI 129143
636
F2
Small
Ok
5-66 orange? X 129143
643
F2
Medium
Ok
Fisher's (Benewah x Beefmaster) x EO X PI 129143
649
F2
Large Packet
Ok
LA0410 x 284 gonna be red
650
F2
Small
Ok
LA0410 X 286
651
F2
Medium
More
LA0410 X 294 has light stripes and antho and excellent flavor
654
F2
Small
Ok
LA0410 x 339
655
F2
Medium
Ok
LA0410 x 366 Dwarf
659
F2
Small
Ok
100%
662
F2
Medium
Ok
Marchenengel x LA1385
663
F2
Medium
Ok
Matt's Wild x 314
664
F2
Medium
Ok
129143 x 283
665
F2
Medium
Ok
129143 x 303
669
F2
Small
Ok
SH13 X LA 1385
Sunsugar
F2
Small
Ok
https://victoryseeds.com/products/dwarf-eagle-smiley-tomato?srsltid=AfmBOoqLVjpXxoK-dSaOlwKFlYFMeeN1yxVzsA_Y4ayOGsJ2VEtkjOtE
I was wondering how my crosses between my green when ripe 294 line and red wild and indigenous tomatoes might segregate next year. I was also wondering about a larger question of which tomato crosses might result in maximum morphological diversity. So I searched for examples from the dwarf tomato project.
Dwarf Eagle Smiley is Summertime Green x Mexico midget. So likely I can add yellow to the array of expected segregants I'll see next year.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2026-08-29, 12:41:28 PMCross takes 2026
294 RL round x Punta Banda large
294 x 390717 very small
294 x 128445 large
294 x 158164 very small
129129 x 303 small
Andrew's pimp x 303 small
PH5 x 303 large
Chiapas x 303 large
Galahad x 129143 large
Stupice x LA1385 small
Black Cherry x LA1385 small
Texas wild cherry x 303 medium
294 PL plum x Punta Banda large
298 x Lyc859
298 x 390714
576 x 303 large
523 x 303 large
569 x 303 medium
550 x 303 large
662 x 303 large
669 x 303 large & small
655 x 303 large
587 x 303 large
635 x 303 large
667 x 303 large
Galx x 303 large
656 x 303 medium
650 x 303 small
Hopefully frost waits for these cross takes
It's supposed to freeze tonight. I picked green about 16 of these crosses. They may yet ripen and have viable seeds. Or some of them may. It's also possible I lost some out in the garden. They are close to 6 weeks old.
I asked AI Copilot what fruit morphologies I might be missing in my program for a step after next. It suggested I had most possible morphologies already but that Brandywine, San Marzano, and L. Piriforma (pear shape) all already in my collection would complete things. It also suggested Geranium Kiss and microdwarfs but I think those are for plant morphologies. I would substitute BrandyFred for Brandywine though as it is already an OSSI dwarf. I am not entirely sure about said AI advice vs. an analysis I could make myself or advice from others. I agree that I need some kind of pear. Though I also want to breed in some of the traveler's tomato type at some point.
On another note, I am interested in using more of the varieties I've obtained from Triple Divide Seed Coop and curious if I should get packets of the few that I don't have. I've already made crosses with a few. They carry Stupice so I made three crosses last year with Home Stoop an OSSI tomato descended from Stupice. I've made a past cross with Idagold- though it might be extinct. I've also made past crosses with Glacier and with Flamenco itself a Silvery Fir Tree cross. I have but still need to make crosses with Mandarin Mini, Pink Princess, Golden Princess, Ararat Flame, Northern Ruby Paste, Tigerella, Black Cherry, and Juanne Flamme. I have yet to obtain Black Russian, Peace Vine, or Raspberry Lyanna. Though I do have a considerable back log and seem to be running lower on time and energy for big tomato gardens. Still future goals!