Ok, so my winter project at present is to get some successful crosses with Solanum peruvianum. Two years ago Joseph sent me some wild tomato seeds. The species that has impressed me the most to date has been Solanum peruvianum. It gets ripe fruit, it volunteers, and it seems to have cold/frost tolerance greater than the rest. Only problem is it so far hasn't crossed with the rest for me. So I am exploring a belt and suspenders methodology towards getting it crossed. I've already made some controlled pollinations (I currently have one peruvianum pollen donor and one receptive domestic plant), and I hope to be able to rescue some embryos using a plant tissue culture kit I used to use for lily propagation. Backup plan is I've acquired some known bridging lines of Solanum arcanum and Solanum chilense from the TGRC and I hope to cross those in to create bridging lines. Anyway, that's my one and only project for the winter.
Is S. peruvianum the same ploidy/chromosome number as the domesticated tomato? Does the concept of endosperm balance number exist in tomatoes as it does in potatoes?
Hi Bill,
It's my understanding that all tomato species are the same ploidy level. I believe it's 2n=24. I am not familiar with an endosperm balance number concept, but may just not have heard of it yet.
William, I was reading an article the other day which indicated that S peruvianum can accept pollen from S pennellii. Might be worth exploring as a bridge cross.
Nice, loving this thread already. I too am working with William, Joseph, and others on what i unofficially call "The Great Wild Tomato Breeding Project" hahaha. But yes, Solanum peruvianum is one of the more interesting species that we have yet to cross with domestic tomatoes and maybe even other wilds, but is a very interesting species. It grows well for me and i think has good drought tolerant root genetics.
I helped send one line of [Domestic tomato x S. Pennellii] hybrids to Joseph and others to help get that germplasm out there. But i am interested in or working with many other species as well. This summer i had an unknown bee pollinated wild tomato hybrid (or hybrids) show up. So far it looks to be a Solanum cheesmaniae or galapagense crossed with Solanum habrochiates. I will post a photo here (perhaps in a separate thread) for those interested.
Quote from: Joseph Lofthouse on 2018-10-12, 08:44:13 AM
William, I was reading an article the other day which indicated that S peruvianum can accept pollen from S pennellii. Might be worth exploring as a bridge cross.
That's cool. I have or had some seed for pure pennelii from you but my only seedling died this spring, but I have a plant of the hybrid with domestic from Andrew, so will try it soon. Using Peruvianum as the father did not work, but maybe the opposite will.
Quote from: Andrew Barney on 2018-10-12, 09:41:06 AM
Nice, loving this thread already. I too am working with William, Joseph, and others on what i unofficially call "The Great Wild Tomato Breeding Project" hahaha. But yes, Solanum peruvianum is one of the more interesting species that we have yet to cross with domestic tomatoes and maybe even other wilds, but is a very interesting species. It grows well for me and i think has good drought tolerant root genetics.
I helped send one line of [Domestic tomato x S. Pennellii] hybrids to Joseph and others to help get that germplasm out there. But i am interested in or working with many other species as well. This summer i had an unknown bee pollinated wild tomato hybrid (or hybrids) show up. So far it looks to be a Solanum cheesmaniae or galapagense crossed with Solanum habrochiates. I will post a photo here (perhaps in a separate thread) for those interested.
Yeah I envision this as a very narrow part of a puzzle which should contribute to other larger projects in the plural. Sort of a breeding tool to open up peruvianum germ plasm for use by amateur plant breeders in cross breeding with other tomato species including domestic tomatoes.
Quote from: William S. on 2018-10-12, 05:08:23 AM
It's my understanding that all tomato species are the same ploidy level. I believe it's 2n=24. I am not familiar with an endosperm balance number concept, but may just not have heard of it yet.
EBN is an important concept in potato breeding. It determines cross compatibility more than ploidy does. Species with compatible EBN are able to properly form the triploid endosperm, while those with different EBNs do not and therefore can only survive with extraordinary measures like embryo rescue.
I just did a quick search and read that EBN is operative in tomatoes and the Esculentum complex has 1EBN while the Peruvianum complex has mostly 2EBN. If these were potatoes, that would suggest that the only possible cross would be Peruvianum x Esculentum, hoping that the Esculentum parent produces an unreduced gamate that would function as 4x/2EBN. The expected progeny would then be 3x/2EBN. Another approach would be to chromosome double the Esculentum parent, which would then give 3x/2EBN progeny from the reciprocal cross.
Here is the paper that mentions this:
https://vcru.wisc.edu/spoonerlab/pdf/Peralta%20and%20Spooner%20D'Arcy%20volume.pdf
I have a blog post that describes how to work with EBN in potatoes, which might help:
https://www.cultivariable.com/potato-a-ploidy-primer/
Quote from: bill on 2018-10-12, 10:39:56 AM
EBN is an important concept in potato breeding. It determines cross compatibility more than ploidy does. Species with compatible EBN are able to properly form the triploid endosperm, while those with different EBNs do not and therefore can only survive with extraordinary measures like embryo rescue.
I just did a quick search and read that EBN is operative in tomatoes and the Esculentum complex has 1EBN while the Peruvianum complex has mostly 2EBN. If these were potatoes, that would suggest that the only possible cross would be Peruvianum x Esculentum, hoping that the Esculentum parent produces an unreduced gamate that would function as 4x/2EBN. The expected progeny would then be 3x/2EBN. Another approach would be to chromosome double the Esculentum parent, which would then give 3x/2EBN progeny from the reciprocal cross.
Here is the paper that mentions this:
https://vcru.wisc.edu/spoonerlab/pdf/Peralta%20and%20Spooner%20D'Arcy%20volume.pdf
I have a blog post that describes how to work with EBN in potatoes, which might help:
https://www.cultivariable.com/potato-a-ploidy-primer/
I will have to study EBN more, I looked but it will require a little more study on my part to fully understand.
The study you linked to mentions the Maranon group of peruvianum. This group has been given the name Solanum arcanum. The most straightforward way to make the cross is peruvianum as the father and domestic tomato as the mother, with embryo rescue at about 25 days after pollination. I intend to attempt this if I can finish a contract and get some free time.
However there are Solanum arcanum and Solanum chilense accessions known to be bridging lines. They allow a very limited number of seeds to mature and apparently across the two EBN groups in tomato without embryo rescue and without ploidy changes.
In some ways this is more interesting. Because if 0.2 seeds can be produced per fruit, ten pollination could result in a mature viable seed. No technology required other than forceps and patience. See below:
Quote from: Tom Wagner
Interesting reading
http://tgc.ifas.ufl.edu/vol50/Volume50.pdf
page 30 Lycopersicon chilense-derived bridge lines for introgressing L. peruvianum traits into the esculentum genome
Part of an interesting post on this subject from Tom Wagner's board. The link is to a very interesting article about bridge lines.
I've received seed from TGRC for the following two Solanum arcanum accessions mentioned in the article
LA1708
LA2172
and seed for the Solanum chilense accession mentioned in the article
LA1932
Interesting on the EBN front, i too will need to research it more to understand it fully, as well as what the acronym EBN actually stands for in the English language. (Some of our french speaking members might also get confused by english acronyms too, so i generally try to avoid them whenever possible).
I plan to pursue an idea i got from one of the papers by Patricia Bedinger at Colorado State University where she talks about tomato compatibility barriers. She presents an idea that in flowers at minus 5 days mature have no standard incompatibility mechanisms in place yet and can often be cross pollinated interspecies with help from stigma exudiate to help the pollen stick.
I plan to continue trying this idea with peruvianum as i had some success with it i believe with one of my F2 generation pennellii hybrids that seemed to be self incompatible and/or pollen sterile. I lost those fruits from negligence on my part, but i plan to try again.
I need to understand your -5 day concept better andrew. Sounds like it could overcome what seems to be pollen incompatibility for me with my penelli x domestic and habrochaites x domestic. Though it will also be interesting to use them as pollen donors on the peruvianum.
Quote from: William S. on 2018-10-12, 06:24:35 PM
I need to understand your -5 day concept better andrew. Sounds like it could overcome what seems to be pollen incompatibility for me with my penelli x domestic and habrochaites x domestic. Though it will also be interesting to use them as pollen donors on the peruvianum.
Yeah, here is the main Bedinger paper i have been referencing. In one of the threads on Homegrown Goodness we had a great discussion about coming up with a simple protocol using walnut oil to help pollen stick to the stigmas. I will have to copy that relevant information from there to here at some point. But i think it helped when i was trying to pollinate my F2 pennellii that had no pollen and was not setting fruit even with using domestic pollen.
QuoteAlthough self-incompatibility (SI) in plants has been studied extensively, far less is known about interspecific reproductive
barriers. One interspecific barrier, known as unilateral incongruity or incompatibility (UI), occurs when species
display unidirectional compatibility in interspecific crosses. In the wild tomato species Solanum pennellii, both SI and
self-compatible (SC) populations express UI when crossed with domesticated tomato, offering a useful model system
to dissect the molecular mechanisms involved in reproductive barriers. In this study, the timing of reproductive barrier
establishment during pistil development was determined in SI and SC accessions of S. pennellii using a semi-in vivo
system to track pollen-tube growth in developing styles. Both SI and UI barriers were absent in styles 5 days prior to
flower opening, but were established by 2 days before flower opening, with partial barriers detected during a transition
period 3–4 days before flower opening.Quote
The node with a freshly
opened flower is considered as stage 0 and the subtending
nodes are successively staged as −1, −2, −3, etc. In SC accession
LA0716, petals begin to separate earlier in bud development,
so in this accession stage 0 was assigned to flowers when
petals (and anthers) attain full bright yellow color and were
completely open.
https://academic.oup.com/jxb/article-pdf/64/1/265/17130455/ers324.pdf (https://academic.oup.com/jxb/article-pdf/64/1/265/17130455/ers324.pdf)
Here is another interesting Bedinger paper, but don't necessarily get discouraged by the crossing table of peruvianum, i still think your idea and my idea are well worth trying. And the EBN stuff might be interesting as well.
https://vanderknaaplab.uga.edu/files/Bedinger_Sex_Plant_Review.pdf (https://vanderknaaplab.uga.edu/files/Bedinger_Sex_Plant_Review.pdf)
That photo of the S. Peruvianum flower with the labels is super helpful, I hadn't seen one labeled past -2 before. I would normally, looking at those flowers, probably tear apart the -1 flower, pollinate it two days in a row, and clip off all the others. Dissecting a -5 is going to be a smidgeon more difficult. The walnut oil is modified?
Quote from: William S. on 2018-10-13, 03:09:48 PM
The walnut oil is modified?
I was initially experimenting with just pure walnut oil and i seemed to be having some success. But the idea was that Walnut oil has about 51% linoleic acid, and i was kind of saying that linolein might basically be the same as trilinolein (what was being used in the paper), and that linolein might basically be linoleic acid and glycerin. I know that my biochemistry might be off, and i'm not really wanting any smart scientists to correct me if i'm wrong haha, but it seemed like a reasonable supposition.
andyb sort of was thinking along the same lines and was trying to use the walnut oil and glycerin idea but to try and add the boric acid and water like the paper was using. A sort of DIY approach. (walnut oil, sugar, water, and ant poison (boric acid)). andyb was using this on trying inter-specific runner bean crosses.
If i remember correctly both the linoleic acid and boric acid are to help stimulate pollen growth.
http://alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/8996/peruvianum-pennellii-crosses?page=6
The possible bridging arcanum lines are doing great. Have set some fruit. I have one surviving Chilense plant from Sacred Succulents seed. It is blooming, but all blossoms to date have aborted. Peruvianum is doing fine as usual from transplant. Though did not volunteer on time this spring.
Quote from: Joseph Lofthouse on 2018-10-12, 08:44:13 AM
William, I was reading an article the other day which indicated that S peruvianum can accept pollen from S pennellii. Might be worth exploring as a bridge cross.
Just saw this again and now I have both species in the garden but relatively far apart. Guess I know what I'll be doing on Saturday!
Quote from: Joseph Lofthouse on 2018-10-12, 08:44:13 AM
William, I was reading an article the other day which indicated that S peruvianum can accept pollen from S pennellii. Might be worth exploring as a bridge cross.
I think to best exploit this. I should plant a small patch of penellii and one Peruvianum in the center of it.
I had the chance to sit down and talk with Dr. Bedinger last fall and she indicated that S. peruvianum would be very difficult if not impossible to get crosses with. If it is as hard as she indicated, but perhaps not as impossible as she thinks then I think it could be done with some effort.
Though there is always the exciting possibility that we will get rare crosses, and those rare crosses will be impossible to get any offspring from!
Though honestly there are three avenues that I see right now for crossing in Solanum peruvianum.
1. Solanum arcanum and Solanum chilense bridging lines.
2. Solanum penellii bridge
3. Embryo rescue
I think I would be pursuing the embryo rescue a little more heavily if I didn't have a three year old and had more free time. Might be nice to have a little bit of a set up too in terms of indoor growing. It would be nice to make about 100 pollinations and then do a big tissue culture day. Its not insurmountable, its just larger scale than I am set up for at the moment.
Then there are of course some preexisting strains with some peruvianum in them, A. proving it can be done, and B giving us something to work with for peruvianum traits should we fail otherwise.
My first year working with the Arcanum bridging lines it seems a promising species for us northern growers. I grew it with our peruvianum and entirely expect some hybrids in the second year grow out. If I could get hybrids with the arcanum x domestic, and arcanum x peruvianum I would think the resulting hybrid swarm should allow some transfer of genetics.
For this potential penellii bridge- we already have penellii x domestic thanks to Andrew and penellii x habrochaites x domestic material due to subsequent crossing with the habrochaites crosses. If we got penellii x peruvianum than we have a existing hybrid swarm it could cross into.
Also someone hinted somewhere that pimpinillifolium might cross more readily with it than domestic... Andrew- you sent me a pimp type with exserted stigmas last year.
In my ~2 envelopes of seed from domestic exserted plants I dusted heavily with pollen I did dust with Arcanum as part of the mix. So that rare fertile 0.2 rate seed could be in there somewhere. I think that I will put one domestic exserted in the Arcanum patch this year and one peruvianum in a purish penellii patch. Also Bumblebees- Wish I could grow out all my seeds- that rare hybrid could be in one of those envelopes
From TGC 38 (https://tgc.ifas.ufl.edu/vol38/vol38.pdf) and TGC 33 (https://tgc.ifas.ufl.edu/vol33/vol33.pdf)
One way is to limit the peruvianum genepool to LA1708 and LA2172 which can be crossed with tomatoes (but cant act as a bridge to other accessions)
(i've not found how to insert attachments at a specific place in the message ?)
Hmm, I reread the article that led me to the arcanum accessions in the first place and it confirms that. The chilense accession is the really promising one in that article, and not just because it has 0.8 seeds per pollination vs. 0.2 for the arcanum, but because they succeeded in crossing it with peruvianum as well.
Unfortunately the chilense is much harder to grow and I haven't yet attempted it in 2020.
Fortunately the arcanum is interesting in its own right. Just not as a bridge.
That second page you posted. Crossing the F1's seems an interesting possibility which could lead to an arcanum based promiscuous tomato line or an introgression. Interesting.
I would think logically the ones shown to be closer to each other on this genetic family tree might have better chances at crossing. If that is true then I would expect Chilense to be one of the closer ones to cross to peruvianum. The next closest that we are working with is pennellii or habrochiates.
Maybe we should try with a habrochiates-pennellii hybrid?
I need to look up some of the other species again. I want to say S. neorickii crossed easily with domestic tomatoes. But I can't remember.
Quote from: William S. on 2020-01-23, 07:58:34 PM
I think to best exploit this. I should plant a small patch of penellii and one Peruvianum in the center of it.
In a pot!
I found an old notebook.
During the 2016 season I pollinated Solanum pennellii with pollen from Solanum corneliomullerii (which i have since merged with S peruvianum). The cross produced about 60 seeds. They were planted, and didn't germinate.
Oooh, aaah. That strongly suggests to me that if we had waited x # days from pollination surface sterilized and extracted the embryos and placed them in sterile media that germination would occur. Same as with Peruvianum as pollen parent and domestic as mother except even fussier because tinier seed.
Let's hope the reciprocal cross fares better and doesn't require intervention.
i'm trying to remember, but i think that first year that i did the big pennellii hybrid growout i had only one peruvianum plant that produced fruit abundantly. From what i keep reading, because of self incompatibility this should not happen.
QuoteThe four wild tomatoes and related nightshades of Chile are, with few exceptions, self-incompatible, and thus allogamous (obligate outcrossers). In the process of growing plants for seed regeneration at UC-Davis, we almost never observe spontaneous fruit set (i.e., without manual cross pollination)
It is possible i had one other plant that could have pollinated it. But i was also growing habrochiates and obviously one of the pennellii hybrids was right next to it. I figure this it is possible that my peruvianum saved seed are hybrids already. actually i now remember i had two peruvianum plants, but they were separated by quite some distance. Still, it makes me wonder why i haven't grown out those seeds yet. Sadly i didn't plant them this year opting instead for Joseph's larger fruited seeds. maybe next year. Either way im heavily invested in this project again. And it is really fun.
p.s. i just requested seed from grin for the peruvianum hybrids. I'm going to try and put one in with TGRC since they have different accessions.
EDIT: p.s. if you look at page one of this thread and table 2 it looks like peruvianum will sometimes cross with chilense and pennellii
I've requested officially seed from TGRC and GRIN for what are supposed to be Solanum peruvianum hybrids. They will probably have lots of sterility issues and will most likely need a healthy bee population that can cross with compatible S alleles from other wild tomato populations (or by hand). If i get plenty of seed i am planning on splitting it three ways. Some for William and some for Joseph. Hopefully like the pennellii germplasm, we can get peruvianum into this project fully and benefit from those genetics.
I'm thinking of dropping my watermelon breeding and most of my pea breeding next year to devote entirely to wild / domestic tomatoes.
For this year in terms of wilds i think i planted joseph's best wilds and fairy hollow together. I also planted joseph's improved peruvianum, S. galapagense and S. cheesmaniae interplanted, and my suspected pimpinellifolium x habrochiates cross. We will see what grows best and shakes out this year.
I'm leaning towards wanting the various hybrids and populations to be at least somewhat compatible with each other. Basically hoping that the species barriers break down and we achieve something closer to what they were originally long ago before they differentiated into different species. Not sure if that is possible or even fully possible, but i think it would be good for gene flow. In my mind it would be good if the lines became so blurred that it was hard to tell which species was which because they all melted into the same homegeneous but genetically diverse population. But that's just me. i like population genetics and messing with those kinds of things. I'm kinda a mad scientist when it comes to things like that.
The main accessions from TGRC are F5.
Mating System: Autogamous-SC
Sporophytic Chromosome Number: 24
Comments: Resistant to PLRV, TYTV, BCTV, and big bud disease. F5 S. lycopersicum x S. peruvianum derivative.
Categories: Disease resistant; Interspecific hybrid
The ones from GRIN range from no known information other than species cross info to some interesting comments such as these:
Pedigree: L. esculentum (Michigan State Forcing) X L. peruvianum (PI 128657)
Improvement status: Breeding material
Pedigree: L. esculentum x L. peruvianum
Improvement status: Uncertain improvement status
Some degenerate plants occur among BC1 and F2 of L.esculentum X L.minutum due to two or more lethal or semi-lethal genetic factors.
Pedigree: L. esculentum x L. peruvianum
Improvement status: Uncertain improvement status
Some degenerate plants occur among BC1 and F2 of L.esculentum X L.minutum due to two or more lethal or semi-lethal genetic factors. Self, seeds not hairy.
Pedigree: L. esculentum x L. peruvianum
Improvement status: Breeding material
Lines that segregate for the mosaic resistance carried by the male parent.
Published: October 1972
Breaking breeding barriers in Lycopersicon. 4. Breakdown of unilateral incompatibility between L. peruvianum (L.) Mill. and L. esculentum Mill.
N. G. Hogenboom
QuoteSummary
A brief survey is given of the occurrence of unilateral incompatibility between populations. It is reported how the unilateral incompatibility between L. peruvianum and L. esculentum has been broken step wise by inbreeding with the aid of self-compatibility in L. peruvianum and selection in this self-compatible L. peruvianum material of absence of L. esculentum pollen tube inhibition, and how L. peruvianum material has been developed on which large-scale L. peruvianum x L. esculentum hybrid production is possible. It is concluded that the unilateral incompatibility between L. esculentum and L. peruvianum consists of a complex of separate processes.
Had you success with ordering tomato seeds from GRIN ? Unlike species managed by other sections, i've been refused seeds of tomatoes because it is only for breeders, researchers ...
Quote from: Andrew Barney on 2020-05-23, 10:17:55 AM
Published: October 1972
Breaking breeding barriers in Lycopersicon. 4. Breakdown of unilateral incompatibility between L. peruvianum (L.) Mill. and L. esculentum Mill.
N. G. Hogenboom
Hmm,
It sounds to me like this is saying they made peruvianum that would cross readily with domestic. If some of the material you've requested is of that nature it would be easy to encorporate into breeding projects but not to work with peruvianum material that still has intact self incompatibility. I.E. might not be a good bridge. Not sure that matters much because the material should be interesting in its own right. However material with habrochaites or penellii self incompatibility it shouldn't complicate breeding with much because should work like any domestic with some introgression. So would be like working with galapagense, cheesemanii, and pimpinillifolium.
Quote from: Nicollas on 2020-05-24, 12:37:34 AM
Had you success with ordering tomato seeds from GRIN ? Unlike species managed by other sections, i've been refused seeds of tomatoes because it is only for breeders, researchers ...
I've had success many times for multiple crop species. I haven't tried in awhile because it seemed like they got more finicky. But you definitely can't mark for gardening or you'll automatically get refused. And when I do put in a request I make sure to put a usually lengthy and heavy scientific explanation for what I want it for. Since my intended use is breeding and things like drought resistance, pest resistance etc. It usually goes through. I've actually had more trouble with the TGRC not wanting to ship to residential addresses.
It helps that at the moment I have a university email address. And I figure with the pandemic this is the best time to request as more researchers are stuck at home. But maybe that does not matter. Actually they may be more on guard now with everyone wanting to plant a garden. The heavy scientific explanation is your best friend in my opinion. Use lots of scientific vocabulary.
It might also help that what I request is usually wild relatives. Not things your average gardener would want. So that may add to my percieved credibility. For tomatoes specifically last time I requested Solanum galapagense and cheesmaniae and i got them.
Quote from: William S. on 2020-05-24, 07:38:40 AM
Hmm,
It sounds to me like this is saying they made peruvianum that would cross readily with domestic. If some of the material you've requested is of that nature it would be easy to encorporate into breeding projects but not to work with peruvianum material that still has intact self incompatibility. I.E. might not be a good bridge. Not sure that matters much because the material should be interesting in its own right. However material with habrochaites or penellii self incompatibility it shouldn't complicate breeding with much because should work like any domestic with some introgression. So would be like working with galapagense, cheesemanii, and pimpinillifolium.
Yeah, hard to say. I figure it could go either way. But I figure its worth a shot.
From my impression of the different accessions I feel like some went the self-compatible route and some went the embryo rescue route. So it may actually be a mixed bag.
Still may prove interesting and useful either way.
I've been pinching my peruvianum back so it doesn't shade out the penellii I want to pollinate it. I'm hoping the pinchings will root.
worth a try. But i have not had much success rooting the wild tomatoes. Must be a trait that was selected for with domestication. At least the species with the more woody stems. Younger stems probably have the best shot. That or cutting the bark away.
I modified joseph's great drawing to include the semi possible one direction between pennellii and peruvianum
I think the diagram should look more like this.
1. Penellii pollen goes to habrochaites not vice versa. I suspect this has implications for crosses as well.
2. The Arcanum I obtained from TGRC should set some seeds on domestic but not be a good bridge I have a second generation planted. That is ok, it looks useful in its own right.
3. The SC Peruvianum you (Andrew) obtained should set seeds on domestic. Probably won't act as a bridge, but that is useful in its own right.
4. We never had real Cornelio-muelleri and decided it was peruvianum.
5. The seed for Chilense I obtained from TGRC should be a decent bridge- if we could grow it to maturity (this year I didn't plant it, last year no plant made it to blooming). Though the lone putative Chilense I obtained and grew to maturity from Sacred Succulents did not accept pollen from Peruvianum or Arcanum.
Pinchings still alive, looking better. Checked and roots have formed.
The new peruvianum lines Andrew sent are starting to bloom. Interestingly first few flowers aborted. Have greenhouse door propped open in hopes of a bombus as cannot find new pollinator tool. Guess I am disorganized tgis summer. One piddley plant died so down to 6 accessions. Penellii cross attempt failed. Does look like fresh penellii seed will result. Growing another generation of Arcanum but no time to attempt crosses and plants not positioned well for natural crosses.
Purish penellii senescing without fruit due to bad soil I suspect.
Just realized there is an interesting Micurin technique to get S. peruvianum hybrids after grafting. Pollen mixtures maybe as well.
https://keen101.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/wide_hybridization_in_vegetable_breeding.pdf
Andrew I suspect fruits on two of the new accessions of peruvianum you sent are probably viable. Also the one plant and it's clones of the old peruvianum has probably got some fruit with viable seeds by now.
Oddly I moved two of the pots across the aisle of the greenhouse next to the peruvianum and penellii experiment and the others still across the way are the ones with zero fruits still. A couple of the accessions are rediculously tall. I may prune them brutally when and if I bring them in. My indoor growing area is full of squash I don't really have the time to process for seed.
Quote from: William S. on 2020-10-16, 08:52:34 PM
Andrew I suspect fruits on two of the new accessions of peruvianum you sent are probably viable. Also the one plant and it's clones of the old peruvianum has probably got some fruit with viable seeds by now.
Oddly I moved two of the pots across the aisle of the greenhouse next to the peruvianum and penellii experiment and the others still across the way are the ones with zero fruits still. A couple of the accessions are rediculously tall. I may prune them brutally when and if I bring them in. My indoor growing area is full of squash I don't really have the time to process for seed.
interesting. If you prune them perhaps collect pollen (if any) from flowers with an electric toothbrush for manual pollination if in a greenhouse?
I need to check tomorrow but i think last night the tomatoes died from cold. Not sure if any wilds survived or died as well.
Might have to bring them in from the greenhouse tonight. Low of 29 with snow.
I collected seed from the Peruvianum section today since there is a risk of frost. I got a few berries from all but the arcanum accession I grew this year and one of the accessions from Andrew that didn't seem to have produced any. Perhaps the most promising in some respects is LA4136 which is essentially a domestic. I got a lot from it today and am fermentating it now. It might be useful for crossing and back crossing.
So i've looked a little deeper about the peruvianum x pennellii hybrid.
The source is from TGC n°36 (https://tgc.ifas.ufl.edu/vol36/vol36.pdf)
The peruvianum accession is unknown (but is SI), and the pennelli is LA716 (SC)
peruvianum_pennellii_hybrid.png
The f2 pennelli hybrids I shared originally with the group were grown with many peruvianum and habrochiates nearby. I've felt like the F3 generation leaves have some resemblance to peruvianum, but I can't tell for sure.
I have one penellii f3 grown this year with a viable fruit. I need to go harvest before it gets too cold at night. It may have been pollinated by anything grown this year.
It is more likely that the diffs come from habrochaites it there was a cross pollination with another species, but who knows.
The only paper referencing a cross between peruvianum and pennellii (tho one above) states that cross didnt work with pennelli as the female.
Quote from: Nicolas on 2022-10-20, 09:53:30 PMIt is more likely that the diffs come from habrochaites it there was a cross pollination with another species, but who knows.
The only paper referencing a cross between peruvianum and pennellii (tho one above) states that cross didnt work with pennelli as the female.
Yeah hard to say. Perhaps hybrid plants might break down some of those barriers. Not sure if the pennelli hybrids are decended from domestic cytoplasm?? I think they are, in which case they probably have domestic tomato cytoplasm and may be more receptive?? One can only hope hybrid species are more promiscuous in more ways than one.
Hi guys
so last year I grew Solanum peruvianum from Joseph and two different types of pennellii from ebay seller Lupinaster and I decided to try to cross them.
I grew a peruvianus plant seperate from the other plants and apllied pollen from the first type of pennellii and no fruits formed. Then I tried pollen from the other form of pennellii, this one was called thick leaved form, and this time fruits formed. I then pollinated a second peruvianum plant with pennellii pollen and this one formed
fruits as well.
Unfortunately a mouse ate most of the fruits before I could harvest them but I had a couple of fruits left with mature seeds and decided to sow them right away. Germination was good and I overwintered them in a greenhouse that is kept frostfree.
The plants look mostly like peruvianum but I believe I can smell a bit of pennellii in them. I will know for certain later in the season when they flower and fruit if it is indeed a hybrid between peruvianum and pennellii.solanum peruvianum x pennelllii.jpg
Cool, I tried that a few years ago but only had one penellii accession and it proved incompatible, but the literature confirms that some are!
Nice if it is really an hybrid !
I advise you to grow again the two parents as the F1 should be SI, and to try to cross it with other species too
QuoteNice if it is really an hybrid !
I advise you to grow again the two parents as the F1 should be SI, and to try to cross it with other species too
It might not be obvious in the picture but there are multiple plants in that pot so I should be able to make F2 unless the cross is sterile but I want to try to make some crosses with other tomatoes as well.
I am not sure if it will cross with domestic tomatoes, but I have a couple of domestic x wild crosses that I could use.
That was my hope that Peruvianum x penellii might prove a bridge to get Peruvianum genetics into domestic.
The F1 could have some reproductive problems or it could be highly fertile and those may not show up till the F2.
I got one of Lupinaster's peruvianum before.
HRseeds actually got a lot of their wilds from him, I believe.
The one pale white - semi-large, not so great peruvianum is a bit self compatible.
I got something looking like some hybrids from it. I wasn't looking for hybrids, planted those ones, took too long for the fruits to mature due to some issues.
I remember reading the self compatible peruvianums have a distinct genetic difference from other peruvianums. Also, those seem to be some of the ones that cross well with penneli.
Worth checking out. Some people really wanna maintain the SI trait and haven't touched those SC wilds.
I like that my garden essentially has mixed SI and SC systems from working these days primarily with Solanum habrochaites and Solanum lycopersicum. It is difficult to be sure a population is SI, but I feel like mixed is a happy medium in some ways. So I see no problem with using SC wild accessions. The problem I do see is just becoming overwhelmed with trying to work on too many projects at once. Andrew Barney got some peruvianum and peruvianum hybrid accessions which he shared with me a few years ago and someone was just asking me what came of them and the answer is basically that I grew them out twice so far. One of them seemed kind of promising last summer- very domestic looking but clearly an early generation hybrid cross, and the plant produced a decent amount of seed in 2022.
Yeah, I sometimes see hybrids and don't care too much about them as I can't grow them myself.
Okra project is easy. Okra is hard to get wrong even with hybrids.
Brassicas self seed and whatnot easily, I don't need to start them indoors like tomatoes. So that project is easy with hybrids searches.
Salvias, I can mostly start outdoors here too. And they self seed themselves.
I want some basil species to hybridize, not putting effort into that though.
Getting wild tomato populations and things takes more effort with selections, having to start them indoors.
I'm probably just gonna grow some things to get a lot of seed before starting projects.
Or grow things that cross easily without issues.
Cucumis project, if things cross it'll only be if the bees do it.
I cut back on a lot of projects. If things easily cross they stayed. Tomato stuff is up there in the manual crossing or heavy selection category for now.
https://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Data/Acc/AccDetail.aspx?AccessionNum=LA4136
LA4136 is the accession that did well for me in 2022. Looks a lot like our high percentage wilds of other species.
Thought this might be appropriate to post again.
https://keen101.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/wide_hybridization_in_plants_tsitsin2.pdf
Quote from: Andrew Barney on 2023-02-18, 11:24:38 PMThought this might be appropriate to post again.
https://keen101.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/wide_hybridization_in_plants_tsitsin2.pdf
Some interesting information in this, thank you for sharing. They mention using a pollen mix to create a domestic x peruvianum hybrid. Would this mix be domestic and peruvianum pollen mixed together?
They also mention a tomato cyphomandra hybrid. I happen to have two seedlings of Cyphomandra corymbiflora and I sowed
hardy tamarillo hybrid (Solanum corymbiflorum x diploconos) 'Pinczow 2' a couple of days ago. Might be worth an experiment.
Andrew thanks for scanning that document. It's really interesting. Hopefully we can get the rest of it uploaded one day.
First flower on the peruvianum x pennellii hybrid opened today.
solanum peruvianum x pennellii flower2.jpgsolanum peruvianum x pennelllii flower.jpg
Very neat!
Another one of my peruvianum x pennellii cross started flowering and this one has a curved style like pennellii.
solanum peruvianum x pennellii flower3.jpg
William, is LA4136 the peruvianum hybrid that was mostly domestic?
I planted out a few late planted plants if it was of LA4136.
Planted in the raised bed next to the F4 pennellii hybrid and the weird fruit tomato from last year that I kept alive. All three should have enough wild alleles to pollinate each other.
Another plant was planted in the Dwarf planter where my orange rocket microdwarf died.
Yep
How's the peruvianum x pennellii hybrid going? I'd be interested if it was self compatible, what it was able to cross with in what directions, and how the fruits are looking, if you'd be interested to share Arjan.
I've just been reading a paper which might be of interest - a potential way of bringing in peruvianum genetics without using embryo rescue. Still complicated but might be easier to do?
The paper is SOME EXPERIMENTS WITH TETRAPLOID TOMATOES
BY ERNST NlLSSON
PLANT BREEDING STATION J. E. OHLSEN'S ENKE A,-B., MALMB, SWEDEN
I think the publication date is 1950. I found it as I was searching about the potential for tetraploid tomatoes for better performance in Northerly climates. His conclusion seems to be that tetraploids usually don't work well for tomatoes, but could with breeding have the potential to be as good or perhaps a little better than diploids. I felt what was missing from his study was a proper investigation of varied genetics. I'm surprised for example that he didn't start with F1 diploids before making tetraploids out of them, I would think using F1 or F2 would be better, and I would think even using F1 or F2 interspecial crosses would be a very good idea to try. I wonder if that could be great for stacking disease resistance for example.
Also it seemed he was testing in a hot house, from what I understood, whereas I would think it more valuable to test outdoors. He was focused on the conditions that commercial grower in Sweden use, but I would think better to focus on outdoor growing, because perhaps they would have the potential to make commercial growing possible without the expensive needs of indoor growing.
Anyway, regarding my topic title, he did have success with pimpinellifolium, which surprised him, and I wonder if that might be due to more genetic variation in the population? Depends I guess on the outcrossing rate in the pimps he was using. But anyway, here's a quote:
QuoteJust because the inferior fertility associated with polyploidy largely
is of dilplontic type one ought not to deny that it may sometimes be
haplontic. This has already been mentioned in the discussion of LESLEY' reciprocal crosses between triploid and diploid tomatoes and is also
apparent from the briefly mentioned crosses between L. pimpinellifolium
and L. peruvianum examined by COOPER and BRINK (1. c.). They obtained the following results:
4x pimp. X 2s pimp.: no developed seeds
4x pimp. X 2s peruv.: many no developed seeds
2x pimp. X 2s peruv.: no no developed seeds
With 4x pimpinellifolium as mother a species-foreign peruvianum genome - but not a pimpinellifolium-genome of identical type - can
result in complete development of seed contrary to what happens when
2x pimpinellifolium is the mother. Here there must be some interaction
between genic and physiologic factors.
So I wonder, if it's not too hard for non-laboratory people to make a tetraploid pimp, and somehow get diploids back from resulting triploids, then it could be useful to get resulting pimp-per hybrid diploids from this and then cross that combination to lyc.
I'm now working on a project to bring per. into edibles via a pennellii bridge. But working with already edible pimps could have advantages over this. I still think the pen. bridge is a good idea as maybe some nice pest resistance could come from pen. too, as well maybe as some flavours, but it might be a longer journey to edibility. So I thought I would share this info in case anyone is interested. Plus I think that it could be quite interesting to make tetraploids from wide crosses - it might even be a quicker way to bring in disease resistance with large fruit size?
I also like his writing style :) It seems quite different to modern academic writing! Quite pleasant and personal.
The full paper:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1601-5223.1950.tb03371.x
Want me to combine the Two threads?
Oh, I didn't think of that. Whatever you feel is best William, I trust your judgement!
https://www.tomatofest.com/Double_Rich_p/tf-0147.htm
Reading a reprint from about 1956 of Albert F Yeager's Breeding New Vegetable Varieties.
I just flipped ahead to the tomato section and under Doublerich tomato it says "First crosses were made between common tomatoes and P.I. 126946, Lycopersicum peruvianum."
Then back crossed to domestic twice and selected for vitamin c. So 1/8 peruvianum.
Coproduction of NDSU and New Hampshire.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-02-25, 09:55:46 AMI just flipped ahead to the tomato section and under Doublerich tomato it says "First crosses were made between common tomatoes and P.I. 126946, Lycopersicum peruvianum."
Sounds interesting. Have you ever eaten it? I had kind of expected an increase in vitamin C and shelf life in some of these interspecific crosses, so that's reassuring news, I read that has both.
No I kind of want to order a packet but you know already have 95 New packets...
I believe that I've mentioned Double Rich somewhere here before.
Payette has some peruvianum.
Burnley Bounty, from Australia. Or bred there. It appears to be a higher percentage peruvianum. It appears to be daylight sensitive.
Purple Smudge, also has peruvianum genetics. It was backcrossed into Peruvianum, again if I remember correctly.
Some others have claimed that its a mutation, but further pressing and they couldn't provide a source, besides research facilities which claim it has S. peruvianum in it.
I may or may not to a ton of wilds this year. I'm in a better position to grow things this year.
Double Rich and Payette, probably won't help much as bridges.
I've had plans of trying to cross Double Rich and Burnley Bounty - plus purple Smudge, over and over again into a grex or whatever.
I'd need to cross them into an exserted tomato first.
And then, let them grow near S. peruvianum and maybe other crosses.
Reading the book Organic Crop Breeding. It says that embryo rescue is considered not ok for organic breeding with some exception for older varieties like Owyhee, Payette, and Doublerich.
Though there are other potential work arounds for breeding with peruvianum like crossing first with Solanum habrochaites.
Edit: in 2018 IFOAM decided this was an ok method after all.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-02-25, 09:55:46 AMhttps://www.tomatofest.com/Double_Rich_p/tf-0147.htm
Reading a reprint from about 1956 of Albert F Yeager's Breeding New Vegetable Varieties.
I just flipped ahead to the tomato section and under Doublerich tomato it says "First crosses were made between common tomatoes and P.I. 126946, Lycopersicum peruvianum."
Then back crossed to domestic twice and selected for vitamin c. So 1/8 peruvianum.
Coproduction of NDSU and New Hampshire.
A member of my Facebook group for Montana tomato breeding kindly sent me Doublerich. In Yeagers book he suggests it isn't ready for the canning industry but can be used to produce more high vitamin C varieties. I wonder if anyone in the intervening years has done just that and bred with Doublerich?
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-03-24, 03:43:42 PMReading the book Organic Crop Breeding. It says that embryo rescue is considered not ok for organic breeding with some exception for older varieties like Owyhee, Payette, and Doublerich.
That to me seems really strange. Was that given as a personal opinion of the author, or as an actual US law position? I could understand the former (though I would completely disagree with it), but I'd find it hard to understand the latter.
Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2024-03-24, 04:39:04 PMThat to me seems really strange. Was that given as a personal opinion of the author, or as an actual US law position? I could understand the former (though I would completely disagree with it), but I'd find it hard to understand the latter.
Hard to tell for sure but the book is international circa 2012 with one editor from Europe and one from USA. So I would estimate it to mean consensus international organic standards. Though with your current methodologies not involving embryo rescue you would be ok.
Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-03-24, 06:50:48 PMHard to tell for sure but the book is international circa 2012 with one editor from Europe and one from USA. So I would estimate it to mean consensus international organic standards.
Hmm, I'm seeing debate on this in the US and EU around 2020 or so. SUch as in this paper:
https://online.ucpress.edu/elementa/article/doi/10.1525/elementa.429/114463/Tensions-at-the-boundary-Rearticulating-organic
And here:
https://www.seedworld.com/europe/2020/09/28/all-you-wanted-to-know-about-organic-agriculture-in-europe/
Hard to find what the actual law is though. In this document,
Bio Suisse — Standards for the production, processing and trade of "bud" products - 2023, on pg 73 it shows embryo rescue being allowed for organic standards. In the forward it seems to be saying this document is in accordance with EU law:
QuoteThe present revision and adaptation of the Bio Suisse Standards regulates inspection and declaration in accordance with the requirements of
the Regulation on organic agriculture of the European Community and
the Organic Farming Ordinance
Source: https://international.bio-suisse.ch/dam/jcr:47dc9f0b-3dae-4936-aed8-2f844ab88497/Bio%20Suisse%20Standards%202023%20-%20EN.pdf
But since I do not have material that has used this precious technique (which I feel should be allowed and so no reason for it not to be), I will end my search there for now.
IFOAM decided it was an ok method in 2018. So the 2012 books is no longer accurate!
I have 3 solanum peruvianum. 2 are located in the veggie garden but the other is in a pot. They all flower big time and bees and Bumblebees love the flowers. I tried several tomato crosses with peruvianum as the mother plant but no succes as was stated in this forum. But then i saw a small fruit forming on the plant in the pot but its located more then 200meters away from the other 2. Did it self pollinated or did it cross with hybrid tomato ? The other plants in pots are habrochaitus/tomato and habrochaitus.
Solanum habrochaites is supposed to work as a pollen parent sometimes just like S. Penellii