Its being twenty four years now since I started growing my current strain of GR, in the early days it grew a range of variables from multi stems, seed head that faced from near straight up to some horizontally facing down, thin stems and height differentials also. The first to be eliminated was the multi stems, have not had one show in past 4-5 years. The summer just gone though is the first time ive achieved all but one of thee original undesirable traits, last being to crack the stem thicknesses, this summer has produced three plants that are thicker than the rest so those will make up some of my seed for next summer. That current bed you can see is pleasing that its of even height and every head points down and is of even size, this I felt has been a crucial selection achievement as horizontal seed heads hinder sparrows from getting near the crop.
Maintaining the variable seed colour is something i'm uncertain of, Ive always taken from from black, white and 50/50 both, should I be selecting one colour only.
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Richard: Some years ago, you mentioned the benefit of heads pointing straight down. As a result, I adopted that same strategy in my sunflowers. Sure keeps the birds off them.
I haven't been paying attention to seed color in my giant sunflowers. They are mostly black, with occasional striped seeds.
One of the most important traits to me has been ease of shelling. I like to go out into the field, while the heads are still damp, and rub the seeds, and have them easily fall from the disk. It's much easier for me to dry seeds than it is to dry disks. Especially in cool/damp fall weather.
I am selecting for larger disks, and thicker stalks. Seems like they are kinda related.
Our little titmouse birds would clean those out in a few minutes, I think they prefer hanging upside down when they eat.
Clearly Joseph doesn't have titmouse birds either.
I haven't been paying attention ease of shelling which I think I should from now on, Its the same here too Joseph, some autumns can be damp and cool and if I try and dry the whole head with seed still on they go moldy. I find its a seed that cant be stored in plastic bags even when you think its bone dry they can go moldy, large paper bags are used instead.
I'm not seeing much of a range in disk width though, so selecting for size has not really being a consideration, but stem thickness is more important in my light fluffy soil
For me, lodging is most commonly associated with the stem snapping off a few inches above ground level. Sometimes, they will lodge by the roots pulling out of the ground. I'm not doing much selection against leaning over, as long as the head stays off the ground.
I grew up with sunflower disks that were extremely hard to shell. I was super-startled the first time i encountered the easy shelling trait. It immediately became a primary selection criteria.
The goldfinches here love sunflower seeds, and hanging upside down to eat, but they haven't figured these out (yet). I might have seen a titmouse once. They are not common at all around here. Last year, only one head was missing some seeds due to bird predation. The disk was bowed, rather than flat.
O' yea, I forgot about gold finches. We have so many of them and titmouses that I think they may actually provide a beneficial amount of manure. Although I don't like having to wash it off stuff.
My sunflowers selected themselves into multiple small flowered types. It kind of amazes me that any seeds survive the birds but some always come up each spring.
That's one thing I never have come up and that is volunteer sunflowers
Interesting talk about heads that face down to possibly deter birds. I would have never thought about that. We have lots of finches here of various kinds. I think the birds that ate my sunflowers last time were blue Jays though.
I would love someone to figure out how to breed a red sunflower that is not male sterile and is bred for seed eating with one large stalk.
I think the larger the seed heads the more inclined to face directly down. There is definitely a correlation between thickness of the trunk and size of the seed head, once I had picked out three of the thickest stems the seed heads on these were larger than the rest of the bed. This group will give me enough seed for myself for sowing in spring and keep the website supplied for 12 months. I always pick out one white seeded head as well to maintain the variable colour range. That range of colour has never changed in all the years of growing this line
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If seed coat colour isn't important to you Richard I'd leave it. There might be other traits you accidentally discard if you select for uniform colour.
I started with Giant Russian this season, for chicken fodder. They did well in the dry. I had hoped to grow beans up them but I think I either timed the bean sowing poorly or had the sunflowers too close together because the beans all grew very poorly indeed and eventually perished without so much as a single flower.
I'll carry on selecting how I've been doing it. The white is not totally white, does have a light pattern, its interesting how the shades and patterns have remained steady for such a long time.
In my garden beans do very poorly up sunflowers, they are greedy mothers on water so bean just cant compete, in higher rainfall areas in might work better.
Sunflowers are allelopathic, too - it may be that they are discreetly poisoning the beans.
Is it the seed coats that are allelopathic, or the entire plant?
This topic brings up long forgotten memories.
My grandpa used to send little me to pull all sunflower plants, because 'they are not good for other plants'. We used to have the bird feeder in the veg area during winter and got lots of volunteers all over the place. I tried to convince him to keep some, but he was very firm about not having them near anything else.
He was really good with old fashioned companion planting, so I assume sunflowers were considered bad neighbours to most things.
Quote from: Diane Whitehead on 2019-03-26, 09:26:02 PM
Is it the seed coats that are allelopathic, or the entire plant?
I'm not sure, but I suspect the whole plant. And I suspect that some things tolerate them better than others. I tend to think of beans as being a bit sensitive in general, so I wouldn't be surprised if they don't like being too close to sunflowers. A little googling shows people do grow them up sunflowers, but at least one person was noting that they should not be planted too close.
Quote from: Andrew Barney on 2019-03-25, 07:48:18 AM
I would love someone to figure out how to breed a red sunflower that is not male sterile and is bred for seed eating with one large stalk.
Why is it that red sunflowers have CMS?
My sunflowers are primarily red and they reseed and grow on their own every year. The flowers and seeds are not large, most flowers are maybe five or six inches across, some even smaller than that and lots per stalk.
Yellows and oranges, even brown is mixed in but 1/2 or more are red. Maybe cause primarily red, instead of all solid red, is why they are able to keep going? I don't know much about cms.
Quote from: Ferdzy on 2019-03-27, 05:11:16 AM
I'm not sure, but I suspect the whole plant. And I suspect that some things tolerate them better than others. I tend to think of beans as being a bit sensitive in general, so I wouldn't be surprised if they don't like being too close to sunflowers. A little googling shows people do grow them up sunflowers, but at least one person was noting that they should not be planted too close.
For years I have grown sunflowers in the same bed the year after growing Oca, if I snap off any Oca growing while the SF's are growing all Oca tubers left in the ground are totally buggered by the time winter arrives, meaning the bed is Oca free the season after.
When I was breeding perennial sunflowers for seed production, we noticed that several common species of weeds, like wild mustard wouldn't grow within a half meter of H. maximilianii. Some other weeds, like Bromus tectorum, would grow right up to sunflowers without any problem.