Quote from: Carol Deppe on 2019-03-09, 09:40:22 AM
Some amaranths make dramatic fall flowers.
Selling one or a few wholesale seed crops to retail seed companies on contract is more lucrative and easier for most than selling plants or produce in farmers market.
OSSI Pledges new ornamental varieties and breeding material as well as edibles. :-)
I have questions about the business of seed growing.
The last two years I have had a wildlands seed collecting contract.
I've learned a little about vegetable seed growing contracts from trainings the local seed co-op has sponsered. I would like to join the local seed co-op but they require organic certification for membership and I've had limited time to pursue that but am avoiding any conventional products to keep that option open.
With the end of my current contract I may have the option to bid on a new contract soon.
I would like to get some small seed growing contracts I could do as well if so.
Otherwise I may end up working as a seasonal botanist again soon while not taking classes to become a science teacher.
What are the potentials for expanding my business into contract vegetable seed growing?
What about independent seed growing? Market the seed through my website?
Is there a possibility to grow wild species on your land that are highly lucrative as wildlands seed?
Potentially. Sometimes there are federal contracts for growing seed for wild species. Many of them go to a few farmers who do wild seed increase as a business. There is a local business already doing the same for the seed packet trade. I might approach them and ask if I could say contract with them to grow something they do not yet grow. Like Showy Milkweed "Asclepias speciosa".
One model might be that this is what I do with my summers once I am a science teacher. The fellow who runs J & L gardens in New Mexico did that until he retired from teaching. Another option might be to abandon the science teacher idea entirely and focus on the business. To do that I would probably need enough contracts to make at least a teacher's salary.
From my perspective, may not be valid for the US.
Because I grow things that are not generally available here in Aus I can get away with not bothering with contracts. The one seed company that wanted to contract for seed caved in immediately I told them that I don't do contracts. If you grow something seed companies can't easily get then they will make allowances. The reason I don't do contracts is because with my harsh summers and wet winters I can't guarantee delivery of any specific variety. Although I get a general idea of what the companies want but I just grow what I want and they buy it. I can't keep up with demand.
As for selling on your own website, I have begun moving to that and am pretty happy so far with my orders. I have found that you have to make yourself an expert and give lots of free vegetable advice on forums and FB so that people trust you. Make sure your packets are reasonably professional looking, and offer really good customer service. This is my website: www.gardenlarder.net
Happy to answer any other questions about selling seed if you want :)
One question I have is how much income can be generated just from selling seed packets online? Versus contracting or selling to other seed companies. I'm not so interested in traditional market gardening but would be very interested in a 1.5 to three acre seed garden. To do that I would probably need to get serious about fencing with accompanying expenses.
I read somewhere that the U.S. has regulations about selling seeds - I don't think they are as restrictive as the European ones which allow only approved varieties. It might be about trueness to type, lack of weed seeds, percent germination.
And as a retired school teacher, I think it would be a shame if you give up on science teaching. You could even have the kids involved in some seed-growing projects.
I have an idea for integrating plant breeding and seed saving into various lesson plans.
Though I'm not completely sure about the idea of being a teacher. This is my third quarter working on it. It could take five more.
Seed farming is a lot like food farming - someone with better economy of scale will beat you every time. So, if you want to make any money, you need to offer something unique that is not easy for someone else to scale up.
Most seed companies seem to be offering all the same stuff and trying to beat each other on cost or marketing. This is an area where breeding new things can give you an advantage.
I suspect that being a science teacher probably pays significantly better than 99% of seed companies that are less than 10 years old.
Hello Richard. I checked out what you wrote on p 1 of the intro section. Sounds like you are juggling three things--taking classes to become a science teacher (presumably in winter), doing gigs as a contract botanist in summer, and gardening and plant breeding in summer. And you mention that the botany contracting often interferes with the gardening or eliminates it, such as when you end up spending all summer out of state. It seems to me that the contract botany and contracting in advance for ungrown seed crops would be incompatible. When you grow on contract for a retail seed company, they are counting on you. They might forgive an occasional crop failure, but not the level of failure to deliver your situation would likely involve.
However, there is no reason you couldn't grow a few likely seed crops without contracts and sell wholesale to retail seed companies without a contract. Retail seed companies usually prefer to buy what they need from inventory anyway, where this is possibe, rather than have to make a special contractual arrangement for the crop, and maybe end up with more or less than they need. However, this leaves you in the situation of gambling, as you may be unable to find a buyer for all or part of your crop. If you go that route, I'd suggest you learn to dry seed well enough for freezing and invest in a freezer just for seed storage. You will also need a good dehydrator.
To sell a dozen or so seed crops wholesale may involve a relationship with only one to a few seed companies. Usually you will need to prove yourself. Or get an intro from someone the seed company trusts.
As for selling packets retail via your own website, you will usually need to spend far more time packing seeds and running the business than growing the seed. And that will interfere with all other winter and summer employment. Very few one person or one family retail seed companies earn as much as a teacher's salary. Maybe none of the dozens I know of. Those that make it out of abject poverty usually struggle more than a decade and have employees before they get there.
Most one family retail seed companies are conducted in addition to a full-time job rather than instead of. Or are started after retirement from a full time job, so there is already a retirement income. Or one of the couple has a full time real job. Or is, indeed, a teacher in winter, and does seeds in summer, and spouse does seeds too. Or were running a farm or market garden already. Selling retail means a lot of work jan thru april filling seed orders in addition to growing the seed in summer. It takes MUCH more time and work selling seed retail than it does to grow it. selling wholesale need not take much time if its a dozen or fewer crops and a half dozen customers. Growing seed wholesale would combine better with teaching.
(Rowan and others in Australia and New Zealand are in a totally different situation. There is no equivalent to Johnny's, Fedco, Territorial, Hi Mowing, or Southern Exposure there--regional seed companies from which you can buy, mail order, an incredible variety of high-quality seed of regionally appropriate, excellent varieties. Most people in Australia and New Zealand buy packet seed of multinational companies from garden stores. Selection is very limited. And what there is is not necessarily of the best varieties. Quarantine laws make it difficult or impossible to import any seed of most food crop varieties without a government growout, a very expensive proposition. There are very few mail order seed companies, even tiny ones. In Australian and New Zealand, more mail order seed companies are desperately needed.) (In the USA there are already hundreds of small one family seed companies. So getting noticed is much more problematic. Though OSSI association probably helps.)
So, what to grow? If it's widely sold, there is no reason anyone is going to buy it from you at hand-processed prices rather than from their regular big wholesale grower, who sells it for cheaper. Ideal is if it is a new variety you have developed yourself. Especially if it is OSSI-Pledged. Any excellent variety that you have discovered in your trials that is not commercially available or commercially availabke wholesale is another possibility. You need to be able to make a case for why it deserves to be commercially available.
In most but not all cases you'll do better trying to sell a reasonably uniform variety, not variable landrace material. The bigger retail seed companies have customers very few of whom save seeds and approximately none of whom want to breed plants. And they want every plant to be prime, not just some of them. There are exceptions. But they are a harder sell than pure varieties.
Beans and other legume seeds are problematic because of the possibility of spreading diseases. Most bigger retail seed companies buy certified bean seed from big wholesale growers in Idaho, where there is a huge state-run inspection program.
There are special opportunities in growing OSSI-Pledged Seed and selling to OSSI Partner Seed Companies. I'll address that in a separate email. Give me a few days.
This Youtube channel has some good seed growing videos for small seed producers. Well worth a look. https://www.youtube.com/user/eOrganic/videos
It seems from what you say Carol like seed growing might best be kept as a hobby business and I shouldn't quit school. At least not for seed growing. I've chased the botany profession for the better part of two decades and it seems always just out of reach to get a really reliable income from it. Often I've been used as a seed collector. I've collected seed for two federal agencies as an temp employee and now a contractor.
Rowan, that YouTube channel has a tremendous amount of material on that link!
Not necessarily. I think you are failing to distinguish between growing seed wholesale and retail. Retail means you become a retail seed company, and spend huge amounts of time packing seed and filling orders to gardeners and farmers. Wholesale means you grow one or a few crops and sell them to retail seed companies. As a wholesale grower, you would probably sell to one to a dozen retail seed companies. They sell to the gardeners or farmers. Some seed companies do both. But it's straight wholesale growing that would interfere least with other things.
I think these days even a job like teaching hs is not very secure. You're one bad/unfair boss or false accusation away from even a tenured position becoming unbearable or blowing up. Only being self employed gives any real freedom. Or being in a position where you have alternatives.
If I personally were in your situation, I think I'd go for a combo of teaching in winter and growing wholesale seed along with gardening and plant breeding in summer. Maybe take only the more lucrative botany contracts that interfere least with gardening and phase them out for wholesale seed growing once I was teaching. The contract botany work interferes with plant breeding and even gardening. And my guess is that it will become less rather than more reliable in the future. And being gone all summer doesnt combine that well with having a family, either.
Wholesale seed growing combines fantastically well with plant breeding and gardening. Both would combine nicely with teaching. You could build a wholesale seed growing business on the side while teaching, without needing it to provide more than extra income for the first decade. If the teaching goes well, you might do both happily until you have a retirement income and can do seeds as a supplementary income. If the teaching blows up, you would have a good start on an alternative business. You would probably use the material from plant breeding in your teaching plus hire the best one or two students to help in summer. Note that being self employed generally provides no health care, benefits, or retirement.
Another thing that combines very well with teaching is writing books, by the way. If you're a good writer, consider adding it to your repertoire. Books of any sort, including novels, as well as stuff related to gardening.
However, those would be my approaches. I really love teaching. (And teaching in the form of writing books is something I keep in the mix.) (Something you might also consider.) You'll have to make your own choices. And there will be luck involved.
If I were a HS teacher these days, I would encourage all the kids to start now and develop something income producing on the side while still at home. Something totally theirs. Write a book. Develop an internet business. Start breeding plants or growing seed. The conditions associated with ordinary jobs are getting worse and worse. More and more is done via gigs with no bennies. Most university teachers these days are adjuncts with lousy pay, no rights, and no prospect of tenure. People working part time are often expected to be accessible 24/7. Meaning even a crappy part-time job may mean a full time boss and full time loss of freedom. There's more and more done with robots. AI is deskilling and eliminating even many middle class jobs. Big corporations use non-compete agreements to prevent you from getting a job in your field at all if you quit, meaning they dont need to promote you or treat you well. It used to be that many jobs were secure, once you had them. Not any more. Its a good time to become self-employed if at all possible.
Carol a lot of what you said seems to parallel my own thoughts. By hobby business I mean continue to follow Gene Logsdon's advice and don't quit my day job, or in my current situation school.
Going back to school is something I put off for a long time. Taking on actual or potential debt has never felt wise to me.
In the botany field more and more of the work is contracting now partly because of some of the things you said. In some locales that can provide a income without too much travel but not in mine. My recently ended contract had me traveling only to a adjacent state, but often it can be a couple states over. With seasonal temporary employment it is often the same especially if you desire to advance. Even within the permanent federal system most botany field employees move and apply for and take different positions, often ending as administrators.
Some of the folks I admire the most have in my view become what I think of as "feral" humans. Often in part by redefining what success means. At the same time I often find myself worrying about those same folks as they age will they have resources and be ok? Many are also clearly brilliant and it's an interesting commentary on society when its greatest minds drop out of its mainstream.
I overlooked the possibility of the courses costing so much you might have to go into debt. Back when I was doing college, there was usually at least one very affordable college in every state if you were an instate student. (I worked my way through U of Florida as an undergrad. For an instate student it cost only $90/trimester, which was almost nothing even then.) Colleges are increasingly pricing more and more students out of the market. And states are increasingly cutting funds and abandoning the mission of making higher education available to their citizens. Just a totally different situation now.
Is it teaching high school we're talking about? And do you already have a botany degree and need only pick up teaching credits, or need to do the whole 4 years? And is it a foregone conclusion that you would be able to get the teaching job? And without moving? If you would have to move anyway to get a teaching job, and/or if a teaching job was more iffy instead of a semi-sure thing, you might be better off moving to someplace where the botany contracting was more dependable and local.
A big question is whether you actually like teaching, and whether you would like it in the relevant age group and social situation.
It's complicated. I'm attending a smaller affordable in state school. I have conditional funding: if I teach at a high needs school for two years for each year of funding it's funded. If not it must be repaid. On the plus side, there are five potential qualifying schools within commuting distance.
The degree let's me teach 5th to 12th grade. I will take what I can get but have realized that I think more can be accomplished with the younger grades. It's a second four year bachelors degree. It will take me 5 more quarters for a total of 8 quarters to complete. I don't know of a masters program with certification or I would go that route.
Moving to say the greater Los Angeles area to be a contracting botanist might work but housing may be unaffordable there.
Five appropriate schools within commuting distance and your being willing and able for everything from 5th thru 12th makes the prep for teaching sound pretty solid.
I think you may be right that you might be able to have a larger impact on younger kids. Many kids who are smart in the verbal stuff, for example, become convinced they are dumb in math. I'm convinced that its all bad teaching and fear of math. Most grade school teachers are themselves uncomfortable with math.
Here are three stories you might like. Four grade school teachers, all of whom had much more impact on me than any middle school or high school teachers. Ordinary public schools, nothing elite.
In 1st grade, the teacher took me and a few others who learned to read faster than most and paired each of us with a kid who was having trouble. The teacher worked with the main class. The slower kids each had their own private tutor. That was where I started to learn how to teach. And how to explain anything in multiple ways. Learning to teach is so demanding, interesting, and complicated that it kept the faster students happy, occupied, and out of trouble. That was the only teacher I had who used that trick. I think it would work great on math at all levels. Whatever else, that was the beginning of my learning to delight in teaching, communicating well, and explaining things.
Second story. My family had just moved to Massachusetts, and I had just started 4th grade. Like many faster students, I read ahead in all the books while in class. Many such students report being punished for it. But I was very cagey. I would keep track pretty well of where the class was so I could answer if called upon. I also deliberately raised my hand and volunteered to answer the harder questions. That way I would get my participation quota in as well as be very unlikely to be called on if my hand wasn't up.
By the end of the second week, I had read all the books except math, and was working my way through that. That was harder, because you have to solve the problems. But we weren't allowed to take the books home. I thought the teacher was oblivious, but suddenly she asked me to stay after class.
She said, "I've noticed you've read all the books except math," she said. "That's harder to do in class, because you have to work the problems. Right?"
I agreed, very sheepishly. So much for teacher obliviousness. The teacher--Mrs. Bachelor--offered to let me take the book home so I could go at my own pace. I accepted eagerly. She also offered to correct any problem sets if I gave them to her. "And there are more math books after that one. I can get them for you."
So I worked my way through a few math books at home. I handed in a problem set once in a while, more for human contact than any other reason. And I started reading (adult) popular science books I got from the local library in class. I continued to be discreet about it and participate in class too. But I didn't presume to think I was fooling the teacher. I knew perfectly well I wasn't. But she was complicit.
I went to the same school for 5th grade. I remember thinking the first day how boring math was going to be now. But when the books were handed out, my pile was one book higher than everyone else's.... Lo and behold, the extra book was where I had left off in 4th grade, several grades up from 5th. The fourth grade teacher had told the fifth grade teacher, and the pattern continued. The whole thing was very discreet. Nobody ever knew about it besides me and those two teachers. Science was always my first love, though. By the end of fifth grade, I had read every popular science book in the local library.
Sixth grade, we moved to Florida, and the first day I took the state-wide Florida 12-grade Placement Test. It's scored relative to averages for the grade. I placed 12+ in everything except one area of math, probably calculus, which I hadn't got to in 5th grade. I continued my pattern of reading science books in school.
Soon I found myself invited to stay after class to talk with that teacher. To be punished for reading other stuff in class? Not at all. For a very frank conversation. The teacher said that given my placement scores, there wasnt much she could do for me in the ordinary course of class. Then she said she noticed I really liked science. I agreed.
She sighed. "Science is hard for me. I don't think I teach it well. I was an English major. I have a proposal." Her proposal was she would give me two hours a day and I could go off in the library and read whatever I wanted. I in turn would teach the science. Once a week, on Friday, I would give a talk on some aspect of science, my choice. I still remember some of those talks. One was on the structure of atoms, for example. Another was on the solar system, movements of planets, etc. So I got more opportunity to teach as well as do public speaking. (And was kept interested enough to not have to make trouble.) And the students loved it. They were getting it from someone who was really excited about it.
Your teachers from what I am being taught did a good job of keeping you challenged. Serving gifted students well can require compressing lessons they get quickly and keeping higher level books on hand to challenge them- your fourth and fifth grade teachers did a good job of that. Using gifted students to teach others is tricky. You have to watch for them getting sick of it. Sounds like you didn't get sick of it! Your hand raising tricks might not work out in a modern classroom. Many teachers now call on students randomly- it is just fair.
Too often gifted kids just don't get any challenges or just have to sit when done early. I think I'll keep extra higher level books and challenge projects on hand. Incidentally I'll also keep lower level books and a variety of alternate projects on hand- but not for the gifted kids. Ability is a bell curve and everyone on it is capable of getting something useful out of say a plant genetics unit.
For teachers: From Generation to Generation by Eli Rogosa Kaufman
An activity guidebook for teachers K-12 from Fedco Seeds. note: clicking link starts pdf download.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://permaculture-exchange.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/seedschool.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiU1p371PzgAhUEVa0KHRe2BuoQFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3j3xcbOzTCgdmk7twWYhxH
This is an attractively illustrated pamphlet full of activity suggestions for teachers.
I know this is an old thread, but it caught my eye and made me want to join the forum.
I'm a contract seed grower. Most of my experience has been with Baker Creek, although I do occasionally take on contracts from individuals or other smaller companies. I have to say, its really exciting getting those little surprise packages from them every spring! Almost as exciting as the fact that they're paying me to play in the dirt :)
I agree that teaching is probably your best bet for a steady income, but if you decide you have time for a small growing contract, you can still make a little extra that way.
The easiest way to get started is to email your favorite seed company and ask if they could use another grower. Each company will have a different pay scale and may have additional requirements, but they can send you that information. Include a few brief details about your gardening experience in your initial email. Treat it like a cover letter. They'll tell you what to do from there.
You don't need to have a huge garden. Some varieties don't need much space. Culinary herbs, for instance. There are enough varieties of Basil in most seed catalogs that they don't need much of any particular one, so a tiny backyard garden might be enough. Being able to isolate them so they don't cross-pollinate is very important, though.
About the contracts: The amount of seed you promise to deliver isn't so much a minimum as a maximum. It's a legal way of calling "dibs". If the contract says you'll deliver 10 pounds of seed at $X per pound, there's no shame in only being able to deliver 5 pounds. They'll still pay $X per pound for whatever you were able to deliver, and they won't hold the shortage against you.
If, on the other hand, you produce 15 pounds, the company is not obligated to buy the extra. They usually are willing to, but its negotiated separately. Baker Creek, for example, usually pays 1/2 of $X for any seed beyond what was stated in the contract, although if they expect a high demand they'll sometimes pay full price. But I'm not required to sell the extra to them, I can keep it or sell to another buyer.
What you can't do is produce 10 pounds, then refuse to deliver it because someone else offered you more. That would be a breach of contract.
I hope that helps paint a clearer picture. I'd be happy to answer any questions anybody has about the job.
Now that my seed collecting contract is over I've a summer job. However I am growing a lot of tomatoes. Wonder what the market for F2 tomato grex seeds is?
I have a existing business because of the seed collecting contract I just finished. So is my plant breeding part of the business or is it a hobby? I would like to say definitively that it is a part of the business, add a tomato section to the website and start offering things. I wonder if I could / should list the breeding grex as OSSI material (it already is as Big Hill Ancestry is ~10% of the seed mix). Then offer that for sale as a breed your own tomato mix.
I've two tomatoes in my seed saving pile that could lead to new standard tomato varieties. Short season blue skinned tomatoes. I spotted a not yet ripe not blue stripey in the direct seeded grex. That could be fun. So the potential new variety count is growing.
Other way to go is to offer the new varieties to the local seed co-op at some point.
Anyone know roughly how much seed is needed for a seed offering / how big of a tomato patch to plant to grow a seed offering? Was just looking at isolation distances and could make ~6 well isolated tomato patches on the land where tomato plants seem to coexist well with the deer. Was wondering if 100 plants might be enough of each variety/population.
I have seen various numbers for numbers of plants to avoid inbreeding depression
tomatoes are sometimes listed at 15 to 20 plants, but many growers use way fewer.
Yeah, is complicated a bit by size of plants too. I see some growers with full size varieties and they have these plants that are taller than they are. I can plant the same variety and its probably going to be about 3 feet tall at most. I think if I busted up my clay accumulation layer and added a foot of potting soil to the surface I might be able to grow a real monster. Though the trick might be not to give it too much nitrogen or it would never set a ripe fruit. Would kind of like to try it with one plant.
Just was watching another video where the tomato seed grower was talking about growing in 100 foot long blocks and he had six rows visible in the block in the photo. Or 600 row feet of tomato for a seed grow out. I think that's too much for me, but interesting.
Quote from: Ellendra on 2020-02-12, 10:15:15 AM
I came across a website where people can post their own seeds, and the site handles the marketing and the payment processing. Kind of like Etsy, but for seeds instead of crafts. It would still leave the grower responsible for the sorting, packaging, and shipping, but for some of us here it might still help enough to make it worthwhile.
The website is https://www.seedwise.com/
Kind of moving my response to this to a different thread. This seems like a good option. Though sounds like you have to pack packets and ship.
Planning to grow some seed this year for a few things that I'm not sure how best to market.
Intrigued by EFN which is where Joseph is selling his seed this year. They have quite a bit of breeding material type stuff and I think they pack the seed.
We have Seedy Saturdays all across Canada from January on. Many small seed companies sell at them, which would be a lot less work than selling mail order.
Diane Whitehead
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
My current commercial grow out plan for 2020 is to grow 5 tomatoes for seed to sell, 1 fava, 1 squash, and 1 corn. With one of the tomatoes and the corn a contract grow. The others are all speculative growouts. I would like to list those with someone else and just do the growing, but if not will add a page to my website and list them there. Three things I am trying to pledge to OSSI. Three things of Joseph's that aren't available this year. So those are the things that will get priority in my 2020 garden and anything else will be extra. I will prioritize a buckwheat I need to grow out for EFN. Then except for the huge grow out I am planning of Big Hill x W_'s F2 year everything else is optional.
If that works out well, what I would like to eventually do is be able to quit working for agencies as a botany tech in the summer, teach science in the winter, and raise seed in the summer.