Open Source Plant Breeding Forum

We have had a long discussion on late blight, potatoes and tomatoes.

Instead of adding to it, I'd like to start this new one on a project to start breeding this year.

I have some resistant varieties, and have bought more, from England and the U.S.

These are the seeds I have already grown. I don't know which resistance they have.

Geranium Kiss
Legend
Bolivianische Obsttomate
Chernomor, Reg Lf
IPK LYC 859 El Salvador
Little Julia
Matt's Wild Cherry
Sky Reacher
Skykomish

These are the new ones I just bought.

Make My Day - by Tom Wagner
Cocktail Crush a new release by Burpee Europe presumably F1, but it doesn't say
Crimson Crush F1
Oh Happy Day
Losetto Cherry F1  bred from the Bangor University research

The packets promise just 10 seeds each, but if someone has a project that they would be useful for, I can spare a few.

I hope Carol can suggest the best way to proceed.

Dehybridize the new European ones?  Start crossing?

Link to the other thread: http://opensourceplantbreeding.org/forum/index.php?topic=58.0

I got some Iron Lady and a hybrid called Celebrity to add in to my mix. Celebrity doesn't have blight resistance but resistance to about all other tomato diseases and since blight is just one of many problems in my neighborhood I need the others too.  I'm just gonna try to cross them up several others of my own and see what settles out. I'm using Mr. Stripey, one of my favorite old tomatoes that apparently already has some resistance to try to come up with something that tastes the way we like but keep producing till frost like in the old days.  Diseases are bad enough here that I don't have to do much except wait till healthier longer lived plants show up.

Legend
Skykomish

didn`t show resistency here in northern Germany.

Mountain Magic has very good resistency.

I have my own tomato strain which shows often resistency but fails in some years between. But it has always better resistency than other varieties.

This is in the other post as well

I found the list:
Homozygous for Ph2 and Ph3
Iron Lady
Lizzano
Skykomish (from Tom Wagner)
Crimson Crush

Heterozygous for Ph2 and Ph3
Mountain Magic
Mountain Merit
Defiant
Jasper (probably has both - not confirmed, unsure if heterozygous or homozygous)

Homozygous for Ph3
Plum Regal

Homozygous for Ph2
Legend (OP)

Possibles/Probables
Matt's Wild Cherry - probably Ph3
JTO-545 - probably Ph2
Sun Gold   Some resistance anecdotally, but I am not sure what it is from.

These are the ones I have grown. I am currently working on growing out several of the F1 hybrids to stabilize the lines. Skykomish is F8/F9 so that is stable already, though a little too long season for my climate.

Homozygous for Ph2 and Ph3
Iron Lady
Skykomish (from Tom Wagner)

Heterozygous for Ph2 and Ph3
Defiant
Jasper (probably has both - not confirmed, unsure if heterozygous or homozygous)

Homozygous for Ph3
Plum Regal

This webpage has a more complete list
https://articles.extension.org/pages/72678/late-blight-management-in-tomato-with-resistant-varieties (https://articles.extension.org/pages/72678/late-blight-management-in-tomato-with-resistant-varieties)

Something that really strikes me about that list Nathan is that you have four varieties in the Homozygous Ph2 and Ph3 list. It seems you me that crossing up those varieties should be done and since many of them are F1s should lead to many new varieties.

My other thought is to develop a lot of F2 crosses with my favorite tomato germplasm. Then when the blight hits should have some resistant material with those traits. Course wouldn't wait for that but rather send some F2 seed out to collaborators.

The one plant of Lizzano F2 I grew out is interesting. Would be good for winter breeding. Seems like it belongs in the very short season very small fruit and plant category. Saved some seeds.

Have an Iron Lady F1 in the seed saving pile. No sign of a ripe Skykomish yet. No crosses made.

I grew many F2 and F3 Mountain Magic plants. So far no late blight infection. LB season just started. Today I found 2 infected plants in other strains.

My one ripe Iron Lady didn't have many seeds. Then half sprouted while fermenting. So I have four Iron Lady F2 seeds drying. I may call that good. Picked some more and just put them in with the general bag to eat or give away. Still no Skykomish. Have to say, pretty excited about Lizzano comparatively for shortness of season. Saved lots of seeds. Would be a good addition to a variable population of short season stuff.

Lizzano X Big Hill would be interesting. Have to add that to my to do list...

Quote from: @snickeringbear" source="/post/7879/thread" timestamp="1422386101Iron Lady is homozygous for early and late blight, but heterozygous for septoria.  IMO, the septoria tolerance is weak.  It goes down in my garden just as fast as most other tomatoes.  I'm not sure if this is because my garden is being hit with a different strain of septoria or if something else is going on.  Regardless, LA2175 S. Habrochaites is just about immune to all three diseases in my garden.  I have some F2 seed to grow out this year from a cross of LA2175 with Piennolo Del Vesuvio.

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Data/Acc/AccDetail.aspx?AccessionNum=LA2175&contains=false

This was on tater mater proboards a quote from Darrel Jones. LA 2175 may be of interest for both this and obligate outcrossing tomatoes. If not already included.

And if taking eyes off LB for a moment, some of these also have interesting resistances to other diseases. Mountain Magic, for example: "High resistance to Fusarium wilt races 1, 2, and 3, late blight, and Verticillium wilt; and intermediate resistance to early blight."

When I first started growing tomatoes, I basically looked at the resistance codes, and picked the one with the most of them, and that brought me to Mountain Magic (along with a few others). I never had any disease problems with Mountain Magic, and it's been a staple of my garden ever since. Also the kids actually eat it.

It's unfortunately not homozygous for Ph2 and Ph3, but it's got them and still worthy of consideration for inclusion, I think.

I've read in Deppe's book that Geranium Kiss outlived all others in rainy blight season, but the particular genes that allow for this are unknown. Has anyone else found it resistant in their garden? I'll be trialing it on the plot this year.

It hasn't had blight for me, but then, it is an early determinate so it wouldn't get it.

We only get late blight when it rains, which happens in September.

Galahad doesn't have early blight resistance but Johnny's seeds lists "exceptional" late blight resistance. "High resistance to Fusarium wilt (races 1, 2, and 3), gray leaf spot, late blight, nematodes, tomato spotted wilt virus, and Verticillium wilt." Also apparently has a decent taste according to Johnny's and some blogs. Don't really see too many tomatoes with all of these different high resistances. Figured I would mention it here.

Good heavens!  If I gardened in an area with all those diseases, I would just buy tinned tomatoes.

I think every tomato disease know is ubiquitous where I live but I still grow plenty of tomatoes.  Sometimes they do croak completely in late season but our canning jars are already full by then so I don't care all that  that much.

I have never done much of anything except save seed if I have choice, from less infected plants. And I compost old vines in the spot they grew and put tomatoes in a different spot the next year. Plenty of diseased leaves drop off anyway and the diseases are everywhere anyway so there is no point in wasting organic material in the interest of garden cleanliness.

I have recently been de-hybridizing the varieties Iron Lady and Celebrity. I grow the decedents of these in close proximity to my favorite Mr. Stripey (not Tigerella) in hopes a cross might happen. The F1 of Iron Lady was terrible flavor wise but some offspring after two seasons are much better.

I am also de-hybridizing various blight-resistant ones -Iron Lady, Ferline. Losetto, Crimson Crush, Cocktail Crush.

A fawn managed to squeeze itself into my deer-proof area and eat the tops off them all.  I still haven't found the place where she is getting in but I will dig up what remains of the plants and plant them in my greenhouse, hoping for tomatoes from them in the winter.

In 2021 i will start with some F2 plants from Galahad. Galahad is a F1 homozygous ph2 and ph3 beef tomato. Do u guys know the pedigree of Galahad?
Is it a cross from beef, normal or cherry tomato parents?

I am most excited about the dehybridizing Lizzano so far. Short season enough to be good breeding material. Iron lady and Skykomish are a bit long season here. Though no blight here for the most part, hit about ten or fifteen years ago. So it will be back sometime.

Edit: I don't know if my Lizzano was Lizzano for certain. I would need to get more Lizzano to check.

I think Mountain Magic is a good F1 to dehybridizing because one parent is a good producing beef tomato with ph2 and ph3 and some other disease resistant genes. The other parrent is a very sweet orange cherry tomato with the Rin gene. Dehybridizing can give a very good cherry tomato with good flavor, Rin gene for long hangtime and resistance for blight ph2 and ph3.

Some other selections from Mountain Magic can give very good beef tomato`s.

Quote from: William S. on 2021-04-12, 11:09:56 AM
I don't think exsertion is much of a hedge against unintended PH2 and PH3 loss, inbreeding is inbreeding regardless of some percentage of uncontrolled crossing and if I select for the external traits I want; essentially reselecting for Big Hill, I stand to loose the PH2 and PH3 traits which I can't see. I think the best course of action is to save and perhaps freeze F1 and F2 seed and or send it to someone who regularly has bad late blight now. Though another route might be to maintain a large population size while minimizing selection.

I wonder how much it would cost to do marker assisted selection for PH2 and PH3 in terms of doing this Deppe style Iron Lady PH2 and PH3 introgression. I wrote one such company and asked. Will see if they respond.

Following the example of Raoul Robinson in Return To Resistance, would lead us to eliminate all known resistance genes from the population. And then select among the inter-crossing survivors for whatever can eek out an existence. This selects against a few alleles with large effect -- that are subject to short-term defeat, and selects for a multitude of alleles with minor effects -- which add up to robust long-term resistance.

Quote from: Carol Deppe on 2019-01-09, 08:20:02 PM

As for the reference to Raul Robinson--this refers to the idea that there is "horizontal" and "vertical" resistance, that these are actually different from each other, and that "horizontal" is slower to be overcome by the evolution of the pathogen. It's additionally assumed that horizontal resistance is dependent upon multiple genes with small affects, and vertical resistance is dependent upon one gene with major effects (the sort of gene university breeders transfer into their varieties). It's normally assumed that heirlooms have horizontal resistance, but this is only until someone actually does some crosses and looks.

Then, my impression is that the heirloom usually turns out to have no measurable resistance--or it actually has one of those major resistance genes, exactly the same ones involved in "vertical" resistance. Ph1 is a good case in point. It was present in a number of heirlooms, which would undoubtedly, in the absence of serious genetic investigation, been called "horizontal" resistance. It conferred serious resistance in its day. However, it was overridden by more modern lines of late blight, and now doesn't confer useful resistance.

Whether a variety's resistance is easily out-evolved by the pathogen is not any such simple thing as one-gene-bad, more-genes good, either. For example, Jim Baggett's pea varieties that carry one gene for resistance to pea enation virus and one for powdery mildew and one for wilt--which let's them be grown all the way from spring to fall--are still nicely resistant to the respective diseases, though they have been around for decades.

Generally, though, from first principles you can guess that if you have two different major genes for resistance to something, your variety is less vulnerable to evolution of the pathogen than just one.

Ph2 and Ph3 show a different repertoire of what lines of late blight they are sensitive too. However, both genes act as codominants and act quantitatively with respect to each other. So varieties that are homozygous for both generally show strong resistance to all strains of blight; varieties that are homozygous for just one, or heterozygous for both show less resistance, with levels more dependent upon specific strains.

Another way of looking at it. Let's suppose that after we've developed a new generation of heirlooms with Ph2 and Ph3 in them, whether someone who didn't know what we did would call them "horizontal" or "vertical" resistance. Well, before they did serious genetics, they would probably just assume they had horizontal resistance. If they then went and did the serious genetic analysis in the absence of testing specifically for Ph2 and Ph3, they would probably still think the resistance was horizontal. Because it would look quantitative under field conditions.

One thing that is very valuable about working with wild material is you might discover additional genes conferring serious resistance to late blight. To show up as a QTL in something as hard to evaluate as disease resistance, especially in variable material, you pretty much would be talking about genes with major effects, by the way. Various university breeders are still "mining" wild material looking for new genes. Additional new genes would be valuable. Could you test for them using marker assisted selection? No. Marker assisted selection is based upon someone having identified a distinctive DNA sequence in or near the gene for resistance. So you could test wild-derived late-blight resistant material to see if it contains Ph2 or Ph3. But not PhX, something new. Of course, if your material doesn't have either of those genes and is resistant, it presumably is something new. So then you'd just give some to one of the university groups which is spending day and night looking for new Ph genes, and they would undoubtedly be very happy to do the molecular biology and identify a marker for the gene.

Carol had this reply to a prior discussion of this. My response is simply to try both approaches. Belt and suspenders.

Garden space wise Carol's approach will probably never use more than space for a couple tomato plants in my garden. Couple Iron Lady's maybe a couple F1's to grow some F2 seed. Unless I get hit by blight and then it might expand. One packet of ten Iron Lady seeds is down by four seeds after three years. Also I do expect that if late blight does hit and stay sometime I'll still be able to grow tomatoes inside and in the greenhouse and work on this after the fact.

The general diversity approach implicit in the obligate outcrossing approach of Joseph's and the similar exserted stigma Kapuler approach tomatoes well those already have most of my garden. In theory if blight hits maybe a few of those hyper diverse interspecies hybrid resulting tomatoes will be resistant and get seed saved.

Quote from: nathanp on 2019-03-10, 02:56:18 PM
This is in the other post as well

I found the list:
Homozygous for Ph2 and Ph3
Iron Lady
Lizzano
Skykomish (from Tom Wagner)
Crimson Crush

Skykomish seems to be homozygous fpr ph2 but has no ph3 genes.

Do u have some source about the homozygous genes from Crimson Crush F1?

It seems to me that Iron Lady F1 as recommended by Carol Deppe in her book may be our safe bet. My plant had a tiny bit of modest exsertion of the stigma this year which was unexpected. I saved a couple hundred seeds for an F2 this time but did not manage a cross.

It strikes me that a good way to proceed with Carol's schema of systematic late blight protection for heirloom style tomatoes would be to utilize the 100 plus existing OSSI tomato lines. Cross each of those to Iron Lady and release the F2s to growers in late blight prone areas. The resulting F2s would already have OSSI protection from the OSSI parent.

Think its better to use Galahad F1 for crossing with heirloom.
Galahad F1 is homozygous for ph2 and ph3. And have much better tast as Iron Lady F1. Galahad F1 have Brandywine in the perdrigree.

Interesting Galahad F1 is available from Johnnies. Shorter season is a big plus.

https://www.johnnyseeds.com/vegetables/tomatoes/beefsteak-tomatoes/galahad-organic-f1-tomato-seed-4055G.html

I have not be able to find any data about Galahag and homozygous ph2 & ph3. Any source ?

My source for homozygous ph2 and ph3 gene in Galahad F1 is Dr. Jason Robert Cavatorta himself.
Also my 51 F2 Galahad plants show the same blight resistance as the F1. And this year the supposed resistant varieties got strong blight infection:
Rote Murmel
Koralik
Dorada
Primavera
Clou
Red Pearl

Nice ! Galahad making into my buying list right now :)

Yeah!  I read the description at Johnnies - sounds like Galahad would make a good standard to compare disease resistance with my home bred varieties, even though LB has not been the issue here, because it has such a spectrum of resistances. 

Crossing Iron Lady F1 with Galahad F1 could be an option if someone really wanted Early Blight resistance.

I sometimes get early blight, almost always end up with late blight by the end of the season.

Should be easy enough to select for most of the blight resistant traits. I would have to send the offspring out to people who have problems with Septoria, Nematodes, Grey leaf spot, Spotted Wilt and fusarium wilt to test for the other resistances.

After growing it again this year I am certain that what I've been growing as dehybridizing Lizzano is actually a stable early red micro dwarf and I've no idea if it has any relation to real Lizzano F1. It was quite similar to "pinnochio" micro dwarf which I also grew.  Would need to grow out some real lizzano F1 a few generations to know I guess. Not sure but I think we decided that Lizzano F1 does NOT have both PH2 and PH3 homozygous? Which might be the end of my Lizzano experiments.

This year our weather was really bad, spring was very cold and summer was very wet and because of that almost all my tomatoes were infected with late blight, so this was a good year to evaluate which varieties have some real resistance against late blight.

The ones that dit well were Galahad, Damsel, matt's wild cherry, solanum pimp.LA1269 and from the Joseph Lofthouse strains I had one of the Wildlings with real good resistance. The other wildlings were all heavily affected with late blight.
The ones that did poorly were
Skykomish, Big Hill, Sasha's altai, Oaxacan Jewel, Buffalo sun, Q-series, Bh- series, most of the wildings except one, pimp.LA0417, Piennolo X LA0417, Sungold F1,North Queen and Primabella

I also grew a F2 of a cross of Weight in Gold and Dwarf Champion Improved outside and it wasn't late blight resistant but one of the plants had a much better tolerance so I kept seed of that one.

I hope this information will be helpfull

Galahad is very good, how is the taste in comparison with his half brother Damsel?

Strange you are Primabella was disappointing?

Interesting, Skykomish and primabella are supposed to have some LB resistance.

We get a pretty bad year too (France), and wildings and Q-series all have succumbed to LB. Only Iron Lady F1 and some plants from BH had some resistance.

Have you been able to taste the resistant wildling ?

 The french climate is extremly variable one year on other.
We can have a extrem dry and hot year as a extrem humid year.
I have try cross between potato leaf x wispy leaf tomato this year for have a great resistance at the rain period followed of the heatwave.
The better for me was canestrino di lucca.It was very surprising and i don't know these  genes resistance against the blight.I doubt she has ph2 but it the most resistant!

I think the heterosis effect can play on the blight resistance and others diseases.A promiscious tomato is for me a good solution.

It seems Skykomish have only ph2 genes and no ph3 genes.

Galahad F1 sounds nice but I don't want it terribly since I already have so much Iron Lady F2 seed saved from last summer.

Almost none of Joseph's wild series did that well for me either. I'm going to end up selecting for blight resistance heavily, next year. I'm assuming that there's some good traits present in there somewhere.

Planning on crossing Wild Gem with exserted orange or something similar, as all my Wild Gem plants were heavily resistant to whatever type of blight that I had this year. Wild Gem was slightly exserted - hoping that this aids in selection for exsertion. After that, I can cross the resistant Wild series types and continuously select out what performs the best for me.

Pretty much all of my habrochaites except for Joseph's landrace handled the blight well enough.

Probably the case that Joseph doesn't have selection pressures for blight. I should be able to help out a bit with that.

Might play around with Galahad as well.

Wild Gem sounds fun. Wild Gem x Exserted Orange sounds like a great plan.

I think it is definitely the case that Joseph much like myself has little access to blight. Personally my main hope for blight breeding is to mail off F2s to someone like you who actually has a shot at testing them.

What might be interesting is that the wildling with good late blight resistance had a bit different leaf than the other plants. It was a large sprawling indeterminate vine and it had a bit less hair on the leaves than the other wildlings.
Flowers were a bit on the small side and were not promiscuous. Fruit was about 3 tot 5cm in diameter and orange yellow bicolor.

Could it be that it has some pimpinellifolium in its genetics? Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the plant.

Quote from: Arjan vD on 2021-12-02, 04:44:26 AM
What might be interesting is that the wildling with good late blight resistance had a bit different leaf than the other plants. It was a large sprawling indeterminate vine and it had a bit less hair on the leaves than the other wildlings.
Flowers were a bit on the small side and were not promiscuous. Fruit was about 3 tot 5cm in diameter and orange yellow bicolor.

Could it be that it has some pimpinellifolium in its genetics? Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the plant.

I bet they about all have some pimpinellifolium if as we suspect the early reds like Jagodka, NoID, and Brad have some introgression. Hillbilly sounds like a true heirloom. From the penellii side there was some sort of standard reds used. Though Andrew was quite keen to add the second penellii rootstock because the red used contributed an important resistance gene. All of which track to specific introgressions  most of which when I Googled track back to pimpinillifolium. I'm not sure that second penellii rootstock is yet in the most advanced populations though. I have plenty of seed still though. Though I suspect the first was probably similar.

Edit: cv. VF36 is the domestic on what I think was the first penellii. Probably a boring lab red though I failed to find details on quickly. The second penellii line was NC84173 which is a little confusing because it tracks to both a red parent line and some sources list it as the original line name for "Mountain Gold" which cannot be true without an additional cross as the red is determinate and the yellow indeterminate. Though a little irrelevant because the latter to my knowledge has not yet made it to elite status in the project.

Quote from: William S. on 2021-12-01, 07:22:14 PM
Galahad F1 sounds nice but I don't want it terribly since I already have so much Iron Lady F2 seed saved from last summer.

Why will u go on with Iron Lady F2?
there are much better and also homozygous for ph2 and ph3:
Galahad, very good taste
Mountaineer Pride (child of Iron Lady), not a good taste

I understooth Iron Lady is very bad tasting.

Quote from: Roland on 2021-12-02, 12:13:39 PM
Why will u go on with Iron Lady F2?
there are much better and also homozygous for ph2 and ph3:
Galahad, very good taste
Mountaineer Pride (child of Iron Lady), not a good taste

I understooth Iron Lady is very bad tasting.

I do a lot of thinking out loud! Now that you have asked my realization is that I am being extraordinarily cheap. It looks like a packet of Galahad F1 organic from Johnny's would cost me $12.15 usd including shipping.

I'll probably end up getting a packet as that isn't a good reason.

only one packet?  Johnny's will pay the postage if you buy $200 worth.

Quote from: Diane Whitehead on 2021-12-02, 02:25:53 PM
only one packet?  Johnny's will pay the postage if you buy $200 worth.

I only ever want about one packet of anything!

Except for that one time from Joseph!

It's a little cheaper from Territorial for ten seeds but the shipping makes it $13.10 usd. Wonder if I can find it on a seed rack anywhere.

Found this AAS winner called purple zebra f1. It has ph2 and ph3 but no idea if homozygous. Still potentially useful when trying to isolate a trait like striping. Grown as a dehybridization some segregates would almost certainly become homozygous for both in an area with heavy late blight pressure and the striping should be stable as it seems to be recessive at least in my limited experience.

Also found on the territorial website Buffalosun F1 a bicolor and a few other new hybrids including Darkstar which list LB but not if they are PH2 PH3 homozygous. They are also out of stock on smaller packet sizes. Still more colors of tomato with some late blight resistance increases the variety of late blight resistant tomatoes a late blight afflicted grower/breeder might have to work with.

With a collection of say Darkstar F1, Buffalosun F1, Galahad F1, Purple Zebra F1, Lizzano F1, and Iron Lady F1 you would certainly have the beginnings of a nice colorful and variable late blight resistant grex.

It might be worth crossing hybrids with homozygous PH2 and PH3 like Iron Lady F1 to open pollinated varieties with some late blight resistance to get higher levels of resistance faster. Would be especially true for someone working in an area currently prone to late blight or if the worst-case scenario Carol predicted came to pass and the spore producing strains became endemic everywhere in the U.S. Which would turn my area into being oh say a once in 20-year Late blight problem to a every year late blight problem as soon as it got here.

In terms of days to maturity which is an important consideration for me these are all over the place Lizzano F1, Galahad F1, and Purple Zebra F1 are all reasonable as transplants here.

The wet year in 2021 show the recistance of Buffalosun F1 is not based on ph2 and ph3. It was very susceptible for phytophthora.

Purple zebra F1 is heterozygous for both ph2 and ph3. Hope someone can ship seeds for 2022 to Netherlands?

Speaking of different sources of LB resistance ph4 is available but seldom mentioned. I recently obtained a ph4 accession though I'm not sure what the utility is? Then ph5 is supposed to be good and Carol said she expected Oregon State to release it shortly a few years ago and we seem to still be waiting.

Buffalo Sun F1 seems about the same as Skykomish as far as utility for late blight breeding. Very long season bicolors with partial resistance.

In the Netherlands do you have the spores that overwinter Roland?

Would it work there to grow the heterozygous purple zebra f1?

Does EFN ship there?

I've been wondering if it might be possible to put together an interesting segregating grex of crosses with LB resistant varieties and offer it through EFN.

Purple Zebra F1 is sold by A.P. Whaley as well.

Some other Frogsleap Farm tomato varieties are sold there as well.

Appears to ship internationally.

A new ''Late Blight Resistant'' variety, showing up in England for the first time, but loads of sellers carrying it, is Primabella. I didn't stumble upon it last time I searched. About 6 months ago. ... So I'm guessing some mega seed supplier has done a massive grow-out.

It's open pollinated. One website mentions sister varieties from a German breeding program.

Tim DH

Its from Culinaris : https://culinaris-saatgut.de/?s=Toleranz

Quote from: William S. on 2021-12-20, 03:13:58 PM
Does EFN ship there?

I've been wondering if it might be possible to put together an interesting segregating grex of crosses with LB resistant varieties and offer it through EFN.

Yes EFN ships to Europe. That would be a very good use of EFN to spread seeds to other places.

Quote from: William S. on 2021-12-20, 03:13:58 PM
Speaking of different sources of LB resistance ph4 is available but seldom mentioned. I recently obtained a ph4 accession though I'm not sure what the utility is? Then ph5 is supposed to be good and Carol said she expected Oregon State to release it shortly a few years ago and we seem to still be waiting.

Buffalo Sun F1 seems about the same as Skykomish as far as utility for late blight breeding. Very long season bicolors with partial resistance.

In the Netherlands do you have the spores that overwinter Roland?

Would it work there to grow the heterozygous purple zebra f1?

Does EFN ship there?

I've been wondering if it might be possible to put together an interesting segregating grex of crosses with LB resistant varieties and offer it through EFN.

Its not clear for me if we have spores that overwinter. Most people say the phytophthora start in potatoes and later it get to tomatoes.

In Netherlands is working:
Homozygous ph2 is not working
Heterozygous ph3 is giving a bit resistance but not enough
Homozygous ph3 is working very well
Heterozygous ph2 and ph3 is working very well
Homozygous ph2 and ph3 are best but there is still some infection.

Hence Purple zebra F1 heterozygous for ph2 and ph3 have very good potential for Netherlands.

ps Skykomish seems to be homozygous for ph2 and do not show resistance in Netherlands.
The cross of Skykomish x Primabella  is working very well because this cross is heterozygous for ph2 and ph3.

Quote from: Tim DH on 2021-12-21, 05:41:05 AM
A new ''Late Blight Resistant'' variety, showing up in England for the first time, but loads of sellers carrying it, is Primabella. I didn't stumble upon it last time I searched. About 6 months ago. ... So I'm guessing some mega seed supplier has done a massive grow-out.

It's open pollinated. One website mentions sister varieties from a German breeding program.

Tim DH

I grow Primabella for serveral years. Resistance is very good.
Primabella is a inbredline of Philovita F1. Philovita F1 is heterozygous for ph3. Hence Primabella seems to be homozygous for ph3.

Hi Roland,
   Thanks. ... That is useful/helpful information.

Tim DH

Hi Roland,
   You state that 'Homozygous ph2 and ph3' are best. ... Can you name any varieties?
   I assume your interest in Zebra F1 is because growing it out should produce some 'Homozygous ph2 and ph3'?
   Are you also growing out 'Skykomish x Primabella' with the same aim??

Tim DH

I'm still not convinced that anything available here in the U.S. but Iron Lady is homozygous PH2 and PH3. Sounds like Galahad is homozygous PH3.

There are not many homozygous ph2 and ph3 tomatoes:
Galahad F1 ph2 and ph3 homozygous
Mountaineer Pride OP ph2 and ph3 homozygous
Iron Lady F1 ph2 and ph3 homozygous

Purple Zebra F1 ph2 and ph3 heterozygous

https://eorganic.org/node/10822 clear reference for Carol Deppe's published PH2 PH3 homozygous assertion for Iron Lady F1.

Galahad F1 is very new so there isn't much information. However found an announcement by the breeder recently on facebook. It asserted PH3 homozygosity not both. That is not necessarily bad though PH3 homozygosity may be very useful. https://m.facebook.com/groups/479332809623391/permalink/522096665347005/?m_entstream_source=group

Mountaineer Pride was released in 2017. https://wvliving.com/a-better-tomato/amp/
Can't find a ph2 and ph3 reference. This linked article does confirm Iron Lady in the back ground in their search for septoria resistance so it is possible but I would like to see it in a reference.

Have been down this path before and I need a reference to believe.

With the purple zebra the heterozygous condition suggests that in the subsequent generations you might be able to simply stabilize it and it must get stripes from both parents. Which means a lot of the work towards a striped open pollinated late blight resistant has already been done.

Trawling through old Tomatoville posts. I discover that back in 2010 Tom Wagner thought Skykomish was homozygous for ph2 & ph3.

He also mentioned a variety called 'Make My Day' which is also homozygous ph2 & ph3.
The post is dated 14th Sept 2010, but I can't find any more recent references to this variety. Curious.

Apart from that there is another AAS variety which mentions blight resistance, Jasper F1. My interest in this is that it is listed as 60 days (Purple Zebra F1 is 80/85 days) Does anyone happen to know what sort of blight resistance Jasper has?

Tim DH

Quote from: Tim DH on 2021-12-27, 01:44:16 PM
Trawling through old Tomatoville posts. I discover that back in 2010 Tom Wagner thought Skykomish was homozygous for ph2 & ph3.

He also mentioned a variety called 'Make My Day' which is also homozygous ph2 & ph3.
The post is dated 14th Sept 2010, but I can't find any more recent references to this variety. Curious.

Apart from that there is another AAS variety which mentions blight resistance, Jasper F1. My interest in this is that it is listed as 60 days (Purple Zebra F1 is 80/85 days) Does anyone happen to know what sort of blight resistance Jasper has?

Tim DH

See this topic for link to an article that tested Skykomish.  Skykomish as tested is heterozygous for Ph2 and lacks Ph3.  But it was listed amount the most resistant tomatoes in the 2011 trial.  Make My Day also tested similarly.  I would guess they have some other resistance that has not yet been quantified.  Matt's Wild Cherry is similar with acknowledged resistance, but not Ph2 or Ph3.

http://opensourceplantbreeding.org/forum/index.php?topic=58.75 (http://opensourceplantbreeding.org/forum/index.php?topic=58.75)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjh96--vrDtAhVfFVkFHRUmBzUQFjAFegQIBxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fresearch.bangor.ac.uk%2Fportal%2Ffiles%2F20580359%2Fnull&usg=AOvVaw1Z33V1p5OPTTn63oQLYgHIaaa (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjh96--vrDtAhVfFVkFHRUmBzUQFjAFegQIBxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fresearch.bangor.ac.uk%2Fportal%2Ffiles%2F20580359%2Fnull&usg=AOvVaw1Z33V1p5OPTTn63oQLYgHIaaa)

I should mention that there are four other tomatoes that tested homozygous for both Ph2 and Ph3

I think we have ruled out good resistance in Skykomish. It worked in Washington state for Tom but hasn't been widely useful elsewhere and reports from our fellow board members suggest it isn't so. I think I looked and tried but could not locate Make My Day, it may still be in someone's collection so try asking around. No reason to be absolutely certain it is if Skykomish isn't. Tom has written about having a large number of introgression lines ready to be tested against late blight on the shelf, but he has hopes of making some money from some of his extensive work so isn't releasing some of what he considers to be his best stuff. I hope it works out somehow, but I am concerned it may just be really hard to make money at this sort of tomato breeding!

That same eorganic article https://eorganic.org/node/10822 references Jasper F1 but not Lizzano F1. Jasper has very good resistance to the US-23 strain of late blight and the source of that is unknown- Edit from Nathan's link above it is heterozygous for PH3. Lizzano F1 at 63 days may only have PH2 according to the article Nathan just linked. We thought for a time it was homozygous for both on this forum. I would suggest Lizzano F1 as well as Jasper F1 for a short season possibility as 60 vs 63 days is not really much difference. Though Lizzano is a basket type. I got some F2 Lizzano seed but I am not certain it was Lizzano as what I ended up with was a microdwarf and grown near Pinnochio microdwarf this summer I couldn't really see any difference between the two. I kind of want to get new Lizzano seed and see if it segregates out microdwarfs. I actually got a packet from Amazon last year and I suspect it was a fraud as the seeds don't look like tomato seeds and did not germinate. So a packet from a reputable source and see if it does indeed so segregate in the F2!

Sounds to me like most late blight resistant varieties might be best used as a parent to cross to Iron Lady F1. Which would mean an Iron Lady F1 x Lizzano F1 or alternatively x Jasper F1 would be a good route to go to try to find segregants that are short season and highly resistant to late blight. Same with Purple Zebra- Iron Lady x Purple Zebra would give you a higher chance of getting a homozygous PH2/PH3 striped tomato in the F2 segregants though the F1 would not be striped if my experienced with Exserted Tiger is any indication. If Late Blight becomes a huge problem in short season gardens or already is that doesn't leave many short season let alone colorful options.

Personally, I still think it would be most interesting to cross Iron Lady with my own varieties to try to spread those exserted stigma genetics to places where they otherwise wouldn't be able to grow because of Late Blight pressure.

Table 2.6 and 2.7 in that PhD thesis do list some more varieties as PH2/PH2 and PH3/PH3 however when I searched the document for "Table 2.6" I found an explanation that both Table 2.6 and Table 2.7 should be utilized with caution because the testing method was a little hard to interpret for a couple reasons so might have thrown some false positives.

Table 2.6 lists Ailsa Craig but Table 2.7 lists Ailsa Craig as not resistant. The others are Amai, Bella Rosa, and Matina in Table 2.6. None of which appear to be known for blight resistance when I searched for seed sources.

Now Table 2.7 lists quite a few more including Iron Lady F1 but everything but Iron Lady F1 seems to be a breeding line number shared with the researcher. Meaning that we have just Iron Lady F1 to work with.

Hi Nathanp
   Thanks for re-posting the link to that article. .... Only 214 pages long, so its taking a little while to digest!
   It does mention BOTH varieties I was asking about. (Jasper is heterozygous ph3)

   Interestingly the PhD was part of the development program for 'Crimson Crush F1' which no one on here is talking about. It would be reasonable to assume that CC is one of the three experimental varieties which showed promise. It pretty much says so on page 13.

   Incidentally the article also mentions grafting conferring Blight resistance, irrespective of whether the rootstock has Blight resistance!! (p29)

   I've been thinking further about William's concerns regarding breeders being able to turn a profit. On one level it wouldn't make sense for a commercial outfit to release a homozygous ph2&ph3 because we'd treat it like an open pollinated variety! We wouldn't have to go back every year for fresh seed.

   SO there possibly is merit in trying to grow out F1 heterozygous ph2&ph3s, because in the homozygous state we might end up with a better variety.

   I wonder if CC is an F1, but homozygous for ph2&ph3! My reading of the article would suggest it is!! Possibly its just 'called' an F1 to dissuade seed saving? ((Now I'm wondering what the actual status of Purple Zebra is.))

   Lastly (for now) This article was inconclusive about the nature of Blight resistance in Koralik. I've come across a later paper from the same stables suggesting that Koralik has a differently mediated Blight resistance.

https://research.bangor.ac.uk/portal/en/researchoutputs/qtl-mapping-in-salad-tomatoes(db230825-92e0-4c75-892b-b295f0201c7c).html

   Some seed sellers call Koralik a heritage variety, some call it an F1. To add to the confusion some list it as ultra early and some list it as late! Perhaps there are two Koraliks??

Tim DH

Some fraction of the F2 and subsequent generations of the heterozygous F1s should turn up homozygous for PH2 and PH3.

In Galahad F1's breeder Jason Cavatorta's Facebook post about Galahad F1 he said something about a linked resistance on the same chromosome on PH3 that was hard to recombine because he wanted both resistances. That sort of difficult breeding might be harder than the PH2 and PH3 breeding for late blight  that Carol Deppe proposed.

I think the professional breeders know that a small fraction of us will dehybridize any F1 they release to us. Particularly relatively independent small breeders probably have little interest in making it impossible for us to do that effectively.

However, there might still be some hybrid situations we cannot easily replicate.

We could make some open source hybrids though with open source recipes.

One way to start that could be to desegregate name and ossi pledge a descendant of Iron Lady F1 so we have a named replicable PH2/PH3 homozygous parent line. Then keep a running list of good open source combinations. One way to do that might be to  test cross it with every registered OSSI tomato. Just throwing that out there since it represents a lot of work...

Is there an easy way to test for resistance to late blight, or do we just have to grow out a lot of plants and wait for some spores to blow into the neighbourhood so we can see which ones remain healthy?

Quote from: Diane Whitehead on 2021-12-28, 03:30:44 PM
do we just have to grow out a lot of plants and wait for some spores to blow into the neighbourhood so we can see which ones remain healthy?

This is why I got precisely nowhere with anything I have done with LB lines.  No noticeable LB has shown up since about 2013 or 2014.

Quote from: Diane Whitehead on 2021-12-28, 03:30:44 PM
Is there an easy way to test for resistance to late blight, or do we just have to grow out a lot of plants and wait for some spores to blow into the neighborhood so we can see which ones remain healthy?

Depends on your funding! Marker assisted selection is available. Jason Cavatorta posted this recently: https://www.facebook.com/groups/479332809623391/posts/911998313023503 to the "Tomato Breeders" group on Facebook.

There I asked him a question about how he does it and he uses agbiotech in California. https://agbiotech.net/dna-markers/?fbclid=IwAR2tgIaL-QuhNzxn_q2z_IaLTJYB9gFrzlZLK4TzlbhITOVUXxxQ2XydEDA you can click on the tomatoes there and see that they offer PH2 and PH3 testing a long with a lot of other tomato genes.

They can just test for PH2 and PH3 for us. Which probably wouldn't be too expensive for one set of tests. It would be pretty expensive though for a whole segregating F2 I am guessing.

I'm a little afraid to email them and ask what it costs because so far, my tomato varieties are worth about $50 a year if I grow them out myself and sell the seed which I have decided not to do for 2022. (I just sent them a question about the cost of the testing).

So let's say I wanted to make Exserted Orange into a PH2 PH3 homozygous line. I would cross it to Iron Lady and get a PH2 PH3 Heterozygous F1 every time. Then I could grow out the F2 and have every plant tested for PH2 and PH3. Any that tested as homozygous (if that is possible) could then be continued with.

Alternatively, we rely on those group members who have bad and fairly regular late blight to narrow things down a bit. If we had a really good performing say F6 we could just test it. Or just rely on its performance.

Another strategy to minimize testing costs might be to cut down on the likelihood to need as many repeat tests by back crossing to Iron Lady or by making an initial cross to a variety that would cut down on the chances of the offspring not being homozygous. For instance, if we wanted to cross Iron Lady F1 which is PH2/PH2 and PH3/PH3 with Galahad F1 which we know is at least PH3/PH3 we would only need to test the offspring for PH2 which means half the testing. Or if we wanted to cross Purple Zebra F1 which we currently think is heterozygous for both PH2 and PH3 with Iron Lady F1 it would be like backcrossing once to Iron Lady F1. Significantly more likely to have homozygous outcomes and should cut down the number of generations you would need to test.

Could also just do a lot of stabilizing and back crossing to Iron Lady F1 until you got a plant that was very likely to prove homozygous PH2 and PH3 before testing- basically introgression of whatever important traits you wanted into Iron Lady. 

My thought to avoid testing costs is to just never personally create a finished variety for Late Blight Resistance but instead make crosses and then freeze some F2 seed and send some off to collaborators.

I started a thread for this, but I am curious basically about how much variation there is in Iron Lady. There has to be some to get hybrid vigor. It is possible that we could dehybridize multiple lines from Iron Lady for different trait variations. Like how short season could we get a dehybridized Iron Lady if we selected strongly for that desired outcome? I suspect the answer lies mostly in how much difference there is in days to maturity on the two breeding lines they use to make Iron Lady each year. Same with fruit size. I would expect both parents to be boring red tomatoes so it would be relatively minor differences. 

https://territorialseed.com/collections/new-products/products/purple-zebra

Territorial's description for Purple Zebra F1 is very good sounding. Much closer to Carol Deppe's vision of creating heirloom quality late blight resistant tomatoes than Iron Lady. If it were possible to desegregate Purple Zebra F1 into a homozygous PH2 and PH3 line it would be far better than Iron Lady F1. As a desegregation project it strikes me that the color and striping should be stable- that they must have used two purple striped parent lines to produce Purple Zebra F1.

I was looking at Carol's old posts on here and she actually suggested backcrossing to the heirloom not Iron Lady F1. She thought it would be hard to get rid of the Iron Lady F1 flavor. So particularly for that first improved variety the introgression of PH2 and PH3 into an heirloom quality tomato would be hard.

So it looks like Mark Mccaslin and Frogsleap Farms have created a very interesting tomato with this one. Essentially accomplishing that first step of getting PH2 and PH3 into a tasty tomato. Which means desegregating it maybe should be a priority.

https://all-americaselections.org/product/tomato-purple-zebra/
https://frogsleapfarm.blogspot.com/?fbclid=IwAR3OhNctblhUNV0LulZr9_RvJkhV-PmUQOGsBph5Lkq0qUWNbgXXiO74oMs

Quote from: Roland on 2021-12-21, 12:29:39 PM
Its not clear for me if we have spores that overwinter. Most people say the phytophthora start in potatoes and later it get to tomatoes.

In Netherlands is working:
Homozygous ph2 is not working
Heterozygous ph3 is giving a bit resistance but not enough
Homozygous ph3 is working very well
Heterozygous ph2 and ph3 is working very well
Homozygous ph2 and ph3 are best but there is still some infection.

Hence Purple zebra F1 heterozygous for ph2 and ph3 have very good potential for Netherlands.

ps Skykomish seems to be homozygous for ph2 and do not show resistance in Netherlands.
The cross of Skykomish x Primabella  is working very well because this cross is heterozygous for ph2 and ph3.

Seems like Skykomish x Galahad F1 would work well also. I don't think we can get Primabella easily in the United States.

Do u guys know the late blight genes from tomato Darkstar F1?

https://territorialseed.com/collections/tomato/products/darkstar?variant=41647595880622

I tried searching for dark star. Didn't find anything notable. Funny how some breeders seem to give out more info than others. Though we may be in a small minority who get really excited to see details on exactly what kind of late blight resistance a variety has.

I got a bonus packet of Geranium Kiss in a seed order today from J & L gardens. Last night I was rereading Carol's book and it is one she mentioned as being bred by Alan Kapuler and believed to have unknown late blight resistance supposedly from Lycopersicon humboldtii a taxon that has been lumped back into probably domestic tomatoes would be my guess. 60 DTM and pointy ends though so that is something that has a reasonable chance of doing well here.

Quote from: William S. on 2021-12-28, 11:24:59 PM
Seems like Skykomish x Galahad F1 would work well also. I don't think we can get Primabella easily in the United States.

Legend x Galahad F1 should also work well. Carol Deppe says in her book that Legend is PH2 homozygous.

Ordered Galahad F1, Lizzano F1, and Purple Zebra F1 today from territorial. I went to visit family and ended up driving right past them for a job interview on a day they were closed! Timing wasn't right yet for 2022 seed racks in stores out there either! Nows the time for seed offerings.

https://eorganic.org/node/10822

Looking at this eorganic arcticle and going through my collection including recent acquisitions it seems like my late blight resistant collection might now include:

Skykomish
Iron Lady F1 and F2
Geranium Kiss-new
Stupice
Tigerella-new
Yellow Pear
Brandywine-new


Galahad F1
Lizzano F1
Purple Zebra F1
Cloudy Day F1

I don't expect much resistance from anything that doesn't have PH2 and PH3 but it is interesting to know that a few of the heirlooms are already known for small amounts of resistance. Given that my collection includes Solanum pimpinillifolium, Solanum habrochaites, Solanum pennellii, Solanum arcanum, Solanum galapagense, Solanum cheesemanii, and Solanum peruvianum as well as hybrids with habrochaites and pennellii I imagine there might be the possibility of some other resistance in there somewhere- actually I have a new strain of habrochaites... If I ended up moving to a more commonly infested area for teaching work it would be interesting to see what survived best. Or if one of the currently very rare late blight years hit my valley like it did in 2010 near here and 2015 near Bozeman MT.

Does anyone happen to know what the nature of Blight resistance in Stupice is? Our current choice of breeding material seems to be PH2, PH3 and Other. I'd be interested in increasing my sources of 'Other'!

Stupice is "other" but according to this https://blogs.cornell.edu/hort/2010/04/12/avoid-the-late-blight-blues/

It is two notches below Matt's wild cherry, yellow current, and yellow pear.

It could be that there is a PH6, PH7, and PH8 etc. out in the world somewhere. It could be that no one who is willing to share the info has shelled out to test some of the "other" types.

I think Carol wrote about her love of Stupice as an early that tastes good. I would think a reasoned course of action would be too cross Stupice and the other "other" resistance varieties with Ph2 and PH3 varieties. Maybe we would end up with some resistant varieties or even just open-source hybrids that would have a little extra ability to deal with late blight.

I think there are some major dominant genes like Ph2 or Ph3 but for the most part LB resistance is multiple QTL and i guess this is the case of some heirlooms

Stupice do not show enough resistance in Netherlands.

That makes sense if it is a third ranked tier in the article I linked. Have you tried any of the other heirloom types with "other" resistance Roland?

Red Pearl in the verry wet 2021 year was not strong enough
Matt's Wild Cherry good resistance
Mountain Magic verry good resistance

Rote Murmel was disapointing in 2021

I have been hearing good things about Matt's Wild Cherry for a long time now. I should probably put it on my wish list. It is pretty widely available.

Quote from: William S. on 2022-01-11, 05:21:13 PM
I have been hearing good things about Matt's Wild Cherry for a long time now. I should probably put it on my wish list. It is pretty widely available.

There are obviously other mechanisms for resistance other than Ph2, Ph3, and Ph5, they are just not understood or studied.  Matt's Wild Cherry may have one, as is also likely that some of Tom Wagner's lines do since they tested for greater resistance than could be expected with only Ph2 in that study referenced earlier.

Including tomatoes such as those probably makes sense for someone developing a breeding population then making selections out of it for best resistance.

A few others noted as having resistance out of traditional heirlooms are Wapsipinicon Pink and Pruden's Purple. 

About Purple Zebra F1:

Quote

Purple Zebra tomato is a fun new addition to striped tomatoes, producing tomatoes that are rich with complex flavors and a moderately firm texture. Dark red fruits with green stripes and a deep mahogany red interior do not produce muddy coloration like other tomatoes of this type. The taste is sweet and acidic leaning to sweet. Overall, this tomato has a better taste and thinner skin than comparisons with excellent disease resistance. Judges in the know say this is a very marketable fruit for farmers' market growers. High disease resistance to ToMV, Verticillium Wilt Va/Vd, Fusarium Wilt Race 1, Leaf Mold A-E, Late Blight PH2/PH3, and intermediate resistance to TYLCV and TSWV.

"Flavor is rich, deep-bodied, almost dessert-like. Could go with vanilla ice cream. Very unique," commented one judge. "The fruit was beautiful inside and out. They were orangy-red with green stripes and when cut diagonally, the interior was an especially attractive, juicy red," mentioned another judge. "Good plant habit and disease resistance," exclaimed another.

https://www.seedquest.com/mobile.php?type=news&id_article=134694&id_region&id_category&id_crop

Nicollas,

I read that article! It is intriguing and Purple Zebra F1 should be an interesting variety to try. I got a message from Territorial seed that my Purple Zebra F1 seed should arrive today with Galahad F1 and Lizzano F1. It will be interesting next year to find out how they segregate. I would kind of expect the stripes to be stable and the color on Purple Zebra F1 but I doubt the precise flavor would be the same at all.

Quote from: William S. on 2022-01-03, 01:28:11 PM
I got a bonus packet of Geranium Kiss in a seed order today from J & L gardens. Last night I was rereading Carol's book and it is one she mentioned as being bred by Alan Kapuler and believed to have unknown late blight resistance supposedly from Lycopersicon humboldtii a taxon that has been lumped back into probably domestic tomatoes would be my guess. 60 DTM and pointy ends though so that is something that has a reasonable chance of doing well here.

I was reading about Geranium Kiss and it is supposedly a rugose dwarf with such large heavy fruiting inflorescences that it needs staking. Weird combination. I'll probably grow it without staking and see how it does.

@roland

Hello, i am Thomas i'm new here
i'm from Germany/Münsterland near the Netherlands.

i'm very interested in your cross of Skykomish x Primabella what generation is it ?
How does it look like ?
yield ...

Greetings

https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/Find%20varieties

We were recently talking about Sunviva which is not listed amongst the 147 tomatoes on the OSSI website https://osseeds.org/ossi-varieties/?crop=Tomato

Along with Sunviva on the European website above there are two others and one of them Vivagrande is also late blight resistant in the details. Intriguing?!

I don't understand why they wouldn't be cross listed with the OSSI here in the U.S. and vice versa?

Vivagrande does not seem to have a U.S. source but that is ok as Sunviva does, and we have lots of tomatoes to work with here too.

If you live in Europe have you tried Vivagrande?

http://opensourceplantbreeding.org/forum/index.php?topic=58.90 Ah it looks that ThomatoGarden has and rated Vivagrande a 6 and Sunviva a 7

Yes i grow Vivagrande in the LB year 2021 in Netherland. It has good resistance for late blight. Its a nice beef tomato.
I alsomade F1 crosses with Vivagrande, only do not know when i will test them.

31   Koralik   Vivigrande   
47   Primabella   Vivigrande   
72   Resibella   Vivigrande   
78   Rockingham   Vivigrande   
84   Rondobella   Vivigrande   
93   Rote Murmel   Vivigrande   
98   Sungold F1   Vivigrande
103   Sungreen 4029   Vivigrande
110   Sungreen F1   Vivigrande

Roland,

That is some systematic work. I had to look many of them up. Why don't you know when you will grow them? Lack of space?

Yes, Lack of space. In 2021 i made 110 crosses to test. And i will also go on with my Galahad project.
In 2022 i will grow a lot of crosses with Sunviva.

Well, the seeds will last ~14 years. 

Can you crowd them into the space you have?

110 crosses would be pretty epic for me! Were they all late blight resistance crosses?

These crosses i want to grow in 2022
13   Clou   Sunviva
30   Koralik   Sunviva
55   Primavera   Sunviva
64   Red Pearl   Sunviva
92   Rote Murmel   Sunviva
111   Sunviva   Sunviva
114   Sunviva   Primabella
115   Sunviva   Resibella
116   Sunviva   Rondobella

Seems logical given Sunviva's interesting flavor.

Is 111 a misprint? Sunviva x Sunviva?

111 is self pollinating.

https://www.seedstrust.com/tomatoes/tomato-russian-kotlas

Anyone ever hear of the Kotlas tomato variety? Seedstrust says it is "proven blight resistant"

Wonder which blight?

Finally found a source in Europe
https://kokopelli-semences.fr/fr/c/semences/potageres/legumes-fruits/tomates?limit=32&format=grid&page=5 (https://kokopelli-semences.fr/fr/c/semences/potageres/legumes-fruits/tomates?limit=32&format=grid&page=5)

I dont know if it has any blight Resistance but, i will put it to my list.

Assuming you are fond of them, if you are ordering from Kokopelli anyway, you should also get a packet of the Kaiser Alexander cucumbers. They are EXCELLENT cucumbers, and for their type, very cold hardy (they are probably the most cold tolerant of all Kiva type cucumbers.)

"Cream of The Crop Tomato: Although crossing is still wrapping up, we have ripe fruit on the first pollinated flower on most of the new F1 hybrid crosses.  Most of the new hybrids are beefsteak types this year, and we'll have enough F1 seed to sample out for testing with third party partners.  All the new hybrids have our standard multiple disease resistance package of ToMV, TSWV, VFF, and LM, and most also have Ph2/Ph3 late blight resistance.  Our hybrid parents are selected rigorously for high flavor and fruit quality - which we expect will be passed on in the hybrid."

Recently seen on Facebook from Cream of The Crop and Frogsleap Farm with a photo of a striped, red tomato. This could bode well for more tomatoes like Purple Zebra F1 in coming years.

Hi Thomas,
   That Kokopelli site you referenced is an interesting read. They also have Koralik which the Bangor research project (See reply #66 above) reckons has a different blight resistance.
   Amongst a load of other fascinating stuff they have some colourful Fava Beans which should interest William! (Shame the website is so hard to navigate.)

Tim DH

I tried searching it for Vicia but not sure if all the favas popped out.

I reckon I'll stick with native seed search in Arizona!

I don't have any fancy favas, but I do have seeds of Koralik I can send you.

Hi William,
   Like I mentioned. ... Site not easy to negotiate!  Try this link for colourful Broads

https://kokopelli-semences.fr/fr/p/L0385-Ianto-s-Return

   Tim DH

Ah, I used a packet of Ianto's return from a tiny company in Washington state as a foundation to my strain of favas!

The company I think I got them from no longer sells them they've started a mix! https://www.resilientseeds.com/store/p181/Fava_-_Mixed_%28Certified_Organic%29.html

What do u know about Celano F1?

https://all-americaselections.org/product/tomato-celano/

Hi Roland,
    I Can't find any reference to Blight Resistance. Have you heard otherwise?

Tim DH

I got from the breeder that Celano F1 does not have the ph3 gene.

I set up a trial, growing reputedly blight resistant varieties right next to potatoes (at two sites 1km apart) and waited for the blight to arrive......

Wouldn't you know it? Blight wasn't a problem this year!

Anyway here are the results:

Stupice: OP Easily the first to produce ripe fruit. (Mid/late July) Acceptable flavour. Beware! As discussed elsewhere on this forum, there are a number of different varieties going under the name Stupice! (Mine came from Realseeds.co.uk)

Resibella: OP The heaviest cropping (2.5kg from one plant). Leaves had a bizarre tendency to sprout shoots all over, (see pic taken early on before they created a forest!) Un remarkable flavour. Won't grow again.

Primabella: OP Fruits from mid August. Acceptable flavour.

Sunviva: OP Low cropping (0.5kg) Fruit from early August. Tendency for splitting. Good Flavour.

Crimson Cherry: F1 Fruit from Late August. Tendency for splitting. Good Flavour. Very poor seed germination. (Which is annoying when you've paid for F1 seed!)

Summerlast: F1 Tasteless fruit. Sickly plants. Only positive point, the fruit looks very nice!

Mountain Magic: F2 (Seed from a fellow forumist) Grew four plants, saved seed from one. Fruit from mid August. Acceptable flavour.

Tim DH

What kind of segregation did u get from Mountain Magic F2?

Quote from: Roland on 2022-04-12, 12:14:13 PMI got from the breeder that Celano F1 does not have the ph3 gene.

Celano F1 was one of the first plants that got late Blight.
A few days later SkyReacher got also infected.

Sunviva, Galahad and Mountaineer Pride did not get a blight infection.

My MMM x purple zebra F1 cross is still a green fruit. It is in the Greenhouse though so maybe it will make it.

New sources of resistance in pimpi PI 270441

Identification of late blight resistance quantitative trait loci inSolanum pimpinellifoliumaccession PI 270441 (https://acsess.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/tpg2.20251)

Quotef the four LB resistance QTLs identified in PI 270441, two(on chromosomes 1 and 10) colocalized with LB resistanceQTLs previously reported in another tomato wild accession(Merk  et  al.,2012)  and  two  (on  chromosomes  1  and  11)appeared to be new

Hi Roland,
   Sorry about the slow reply. ... The only segregation I was looking for was Blight Resistance (which didn't get tested) and taste (which did get tested!)
   Apart from that, all the seedlings were indeterminate, all fruits were medium sized reds, more blocky than spherical. Was there any particular trait you were interested in?

Tim DH

Mountain Magic is a Cross between a Cherry with the Rin gene and a Beef with ph2, ph3, determinate.

So i espected a lot of difference in size of the fruit and some plants that where homozygous for the Rin gene and stay orange or green with a very long shelf life?

Also I espect a lot of difference in taste ?

Hi Roland,
   That's interesting. ... My small grow out (only four plants) gave NO indication of the parentage you describe!

   I am intending to repeat the grow out next year in the hope (Ha! Ha!) that Blight might show up next time. (I have plenty of the F2 seed.) I was thinking of running a Crimson Cherry F2 trial along side it.

Tim DH

In france we tried to cross mountain magic with orange jazz.
We want a tasty tomato with ph1 and ph2 with the minimum rin effects
https://www.les-tomos.fr/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=1915

It look important to make the difference between rin and rin g2
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0249575
If she stay green i thinked she has rin and if she stay orange she has rin g2 for me.

Very interesting. How many plant did u grow and did u find segregation in blight resistance? Dit u notice difference in plants with the Rin gene and without the Rin gene?

My Galahad F3 all show very good resistance and are homozygous for the ph2 and ph3 gene. The disadvantage is that they do not set fruit in May and June and therefore ripen late. Still I got hundreds of kilos of tomatoes

The responsible of this project is not connected here and i'm not a participant.
They say that Without rin the peel is more thin.
https://www.les-tomos.fr/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=1915&start=180
Page 19 to 22 you can see differents types of peels and colors.
Some stats here
https://www.les-tomos.fr/viewtopic.php?p=96245#p96245

I made this cross a very long time ago. It was a delayed take and very slow to ripen. MMM x purple zebra F1.

Hope there is a seed inside!!

One interesting side project with late blight resistant tomatoes was growing out LA1033 Solanum habrochaites. I made one failed cross with it as the pollen parent. I picked half the berries last weekend and half today. The stems are dried on the first half. My plan is to let them sit awhile before opening in the hopes of some ripe seed. The shaded backyard bed they grew in has a very long season but the plants are slow to ripen. R18 essentially rejected these growing conditions. It looks to be about to bloom as fall frost approaches!

LA1033 has a multi gene resistance to late blight that briefly got the PH4 designation before it was reassigned to a single gene trait in a pimpinillifolium accession or some such. Mainstream breeders have little use for this because using it would be difficult.

I figure in a high enough percentage habrochaites cross you might just squeak through with such a multi gene trait intact.

That's why I planted a clump of R18 next to it. To hopefully start the back contamination process. Not this year but maybe one of these berries will have viable seed.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2022-10-22, 10:49:21 AMI made this cross a very long time ago. It was a delayed take and very slow to ripen. MMM x purple zebra F1.

Hope there is a seed inside!!

There were 12!

Great news !

If i get it correctly, those 12 seeds ensure that there is more than 95% probability that one of those 12 plants contains both Ph2 and Ph3 (in heterozygous form)

If you got LB pressure, it can be selected the same year. If not, i'm not sure how you can be sure to capture ph2+Ph3 in the long term, much so if it is self-incompatible

Quote from: Nicolas on 2022-10-24, 11:56:12 PMGreat news !

If i get it correctly, those 12 seeds ensure that there is more than 95% probability that one of those 12 plants contains both Ph2 and Ph3 (in heterozygous form)

If you got LB pressure, it can be selected the same year. If not, i'm not sure how you can be sure to capture ph2+Ph3 in the long term, much so if it is self-incompatible

I think I'll just not worry about it. It is a 1 in 20 year event here roughly. I'll end up with tons of extra seed. Seed of tomato lasts up to 14 years. So I'll save some in case conditions worsen. I'll share some early generation seeds with folks who do have LB pressure. I'll select for stripes, potato leaves, blue skin, exsertion. Then I'll outcross to Galahad F1 and repeat.

https://www.johnnyseeds.com/vegetables/tomatoes/beefsteak-tomatoes/hot-streak-f1-tomato-seed-4760.html

Hot Streak F1 another PH2 PH3 heterozygous tomato with good flavor for us to play with. Uh already sold out till January and I just heard about it.

This one is interesting in that it has nice color and stripes, and is big sized. Nice find, a good material to de-hybridize (or to cross with other LB resistant F1 before de-hybridization)

It is from the same breeding program I think as Purple Zebra F1. Which means that they have multiple striped disease resistant stable lines to use as the hybrid parents of both. I suspect both parents must be striped to have fully expressed striped parents. Dehybridization of hot streak and purple zebra should give us a lot of insight even in the F2 as to what those parent lines must look like. I wonder if they would show any real surprises.

I have already crossed purple zebra with my Mission Mountain Morning line where I crossed Big Hill HX-9 with my Mission Mountain Sunrise line. I could outcross to Hot Streak without losing the striping. I could also cross to my exserted tiger line without losing the striping.

Do u guys know the late blight genes from tomato Blushingstar F1?
https://www.totallytomato.com/product/T00101/11

https://www.panamseed.com/plant_info.aspx?phid=062000001049474

Interesting!

What is youre experiance whit Purple Zebra F1 and fruit cracking?

My clump of purple zebra F1 were grown in an odd wood board sided bed at the house a bit shaded and tree root invaded. It is also filled with soil mix not real topsoil. Mostly peat I suppose. They produced what I would describe as large cherries with a pointed tip. No inclination towards cracking. Though I wonder what they would do in the sun in real soil?

Quote from: Roland on 2021-12-29, 05:49:28 AMDo u guys know the late blight genes from tomato Darkstar F1?

https://territorialseed.com/collections/tomato/products/darkstar?variant=41647595880622

Osborne ask the breeder and confirm DarkStar F1 is heterozygous for ph2 and ph3.
https://www.osborneseed.com/catalog/item-content/84897/darkstar-f1/pr_84897

Seems like Carol Deppe's dream is getting easier all the time.

Not sure that Ph2 and Ph3 will last long to new mutations or sexual reproduction of late blight

Dangerous for me to play all on ph2 and ph3.
A variery tolerant today is may sensitive tomorow and a variety sensitive today is may tolerant tomorow if the blight has a so fast evolution.

However selected f2 between ph2 and ph3 is a better idea for get a better adaptation.
How much tolerancy combinaisons are possibles with f2 between ph2 and ph3?
And between ph1; ph2 and ph3.

The better idea is to get the maximum combinaisons possibles.

That is why I added in PI 270443 Solanum pimpinellifolium which may be the PH5 source material. I did manage to make a cross with it in 2022 and my Mission Mountain Sunrise.

I also am very curious about LA 1033 Solanum habrochaites which I grew this year as it is supposed to have a resistance that is multi gene. Though this would be hard to work with, but I don't think it is impossible. I did not manage to make a cross with it, but I did finally get some seed back.

The biggest problem for me is finding someone with late blight problems to send the seed to for testing who will send seed back in a geographic region where we can freely send seed back and forth legally.

Then I could grow out the F1's of my crosses and send F2 seed to that person and they could send me back promising F3 seed which I could do half sibling crosses with. We could use such a process end up with a PH2, PH3, PH5 homozygous tomato eventually which might be pretty resilient to late blight.

If we could work with the habrochaites LA 1033 we might make a resilient strain, there as well. I think we would just need to keep it very high percentage habrochaites. Which is also a work flow I'm interested in with LA2329 for arthropod resistance. Just keep back crossing with the habrochaites like Joseph has been doing to get a tomato that is essentially habrochaites and has this multi gene resistance intact. Also, this could potentially work with the multi gene salt tolerance from Solanum galapagense. Sort of an open-source organic version of the gene editing de-novae domestication article we discussed some time ago. 

I also think horizontal resistance is the way even if it is much more difficult than Ph2+Ph3 to select for.

It is ok for us amateurs to have plants that are resistant to LB but produces small fruits, fruits that does not keep, odd colored or shaped fruits, indeterminate, etc. so what is non viable for big breeding folks (corporate or univ) is achievable for us frequenting this forum.

Quote from: Nicolas on 2022-12-04, 11:22:34 PMIt is ok for us amateurs to have plants that are resistant to LB but produces small fruits, fruits that does not keep, odd colored or shaped fruits, indeterminate, etc. so what is non viable for big breeding folks (corporate or univ) is achievable for us frequenting this forum.

And in fact, some of those traits are even more desirable for a home gardener.  Many people would rather get a little fruit every day over a long period of time than all the fruit at once, for instance.

A tomato with 99% of ph3 and 1% of ph2 is different than a tomato with 100% ph3 and she has a diffent tolerancy for exemple and different than a tomato with 50% ph2 and 50% ph3.
With the f2 between ph2 and ph3 we can have a different % of ph2 and ph3 on each plant.
A infinity of combinaisons are possibles.

Imagine a tomato with  π% of ph3 and (100-π)% of ph2 this combinaison is also possible

Adrian, Ph2 and Ph3 are simple genes, not QTL.

So there are only 16 combinations for the two genes taken together,

from

ph2/ph2 ph3/ph3 (no resistance)
...
Ph3/Ph3 ph2/ph2 (homozygous just for Ph3)
...
Ph2/ph2 Ph3/ph3 (heterozygous for both - usually the LB resistant hybrids)
...
Ph2/Ph2 Ph3/Ph3 (homozigous for both resistances - Iron Lady F1 ... Fn)

Thank you Nicolas!
Ok the possibilitys with ph2 and ph3 are
1.(ph2/.ph3/).(ph2/.ph3/)

2.(ph2/.ph3/).(ph2/.ph3) = ph2/(ph3/.ph3)

3.(ph2/.ph3/).(ph2.ph3/)=ph3/(ph2/.ph2)

4.(ph2/.ph3/).(ph2.ph3)

5.(ph2/.ph3).(ph2/.ph3/)= ph2/(ph3.ph3/)

6.(ph2/.ph3).(ph2/.ph3)

7.(ph2/.ph3).(ph2.ph3/)

8.(ph2/.ph3).(ph2.ph3)=ph3(ph2.ph2/)

9.(ph2.ph3/).(ph2/.ph3/)=ph3/(ph2.ph2/)

10.(ph2.ph3/).(ph2/.ph3)

11.(ph2.ph3/).(ph2.ph3/)

12.(ph2.ph3/).(ph2.ph3)=ph2(ph3/.ph3)

13.(ph2.ph3).(ph2/.ph3/)

14.(ph2.ph3).(ph2/.ph3)=ph3(ph2.ph2/)

15.(ph2.ph3).(ph2.ph3/)=ph2(ph3.ph3/)

16.(ph2.ph3).(ph2.ph3)

We can now note the mosts tolerants combinaisons among the 16

Hi Adrian,
     I'm not understanding you there.

     In Nicolas's post he has ph to show the gene is inactive and Ph to show the gene is active.

     In your post you have no 'Ph's only 'ph's. So I'm unclear about what you mean.


     I reckon there are nine combinations, using Nicolas's format:

ph2/ph2 ph3/ph3   No resistance
ph2/ph2 Ph3/ph3   heterozygous for Ph3
ph2/ph2 Ph3/Ph3   homozygous for Ph3

ph2/Ph2 ph3/ph3   heterozygous for Ph2
ph2/Ph2 ph3/Ph3   heterozygous for both
ph2/Ph2 Ph3/Ph3   heterozygous for Ph2 homozygous for Ph3

Ph2/Ph2 ph3/ph3   homozygous for Ph2
Ph2/Ph2 ph3/Ph3   homozygous for Ph2 heterozygous for Ph3
Ph2/Ph2 Ph3/Ph3   homozygous for both

 


Tim DH

 ----- Allele 1  / Allele 2
-----2³-----2²------2¹---2⁰----↓(binary)
1-16.(ph2.ph3).(ph2.ph3) 0
2-5.(ph2.ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 1 (2⁰)
3-9.(ph2.ph3).(Ph2.ph3) 2 (2¹)
4-13.(ph2.ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 3 (2⁰+2¹)
5-2.(ph2.Ph3).(ph2.ph3) 4 (2²)
6-11.(ph2.Ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 5 (2⁰+2²)
7-10.(ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.ph3) 6 (2¹+2²)
8-14.(ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 7 (2⁰+2¹+2²)
9-3.(Ph2.ph3).(ph2.ph3) 8 (2³)
10-7.(Ph2.ph3).(ph2.Ph3)9 (2⁰+2³)
11-6.(Ph2.ph3).(Ph2.ph3) 10 (2¹+2³)
12-15.(Ph2.ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 11 (2⁰+2¹+2³)
13-4.(Ph2.Ph3).(ph2.ph3) 12 (2²+2³)
14-8.(Ph2.Ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 13 (2⁰+2²+2³)
15-12.(Ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.ph3) 14  (2¹+2²+2³)
16-1.(Ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 15   (2⁰+2¹+2²+2³)

Sorry Nicolas In programmation we like use "/" for show a condition not present.
It may more easy now!

Adrian,

I get your idea, you just need to keep the ph2 together and ph3 together

We are talking about two genes (ph2 and ph3). Has the tomato is diploid, you can see each gene has a pair variable (x,y) so for example ph2 = (x1, y1) and ph3 = (x2, y2). Alleles are what value can take a gene. for ph2 it is [Ph2, ph2], for ph3 it is [Ph3, ph3] (some genes can have more than two alleles available (e.g. B gene)). So here x1 or y1 can take either Ph2 or ph2.

Hi Adrian,
       I coloured your Phs on my word processor to be able to see them more clearly!! Sadly, when I cut and paste that text into this forum the colour disappears! I've tried to re-create it here:

1.(ph2.ph3).(ph2.ph3)
2.(ph2.ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 
3.(ph2.ph3).(Ph2.ph3) 
4.(ph2.ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 
5.(ph2.Ph3).(ph2.ph3) 
6.(ph2.Ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 
7.(ph2.Ph3).(ph2.ph3) 
8.(ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 
9.(Ph2.ph3).(ph2.ph3) 
10.(Ph2.ph3).(ph2.Ph3)
11.(Ph2.ph3).(Ph2.ph3) 
12.(Ph2.ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 
13.(Ph2.Ph3).(ph2.ph3) 
14.(Ph2.Ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 
15.(Ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.ph3) 
16.(Ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 

From this I separated the list into the nine phenotypes:

1.(ph2.ph3).(ph2.ph3)

3.(ph2.ph3).(Ph2.ph3)
9.(Ph2.ph3).(ph2.ph3)

2.(ph2.ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 
5.(ph2.Ph3).(ph2.ph3)
7.(ph2.Ph3).(ph2.ph3) I think this one should have been 7.(ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.ph3) since this combination is missing from the next set.
 
4.(ph2.ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 
10.(Ph2.ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 
13.(Ph2.Ph3).(ph2.ph3) 

6.(ph2.Ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 

11.(Ph2.ph3).(Ph2.ph3)

8.(ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 
14.(Ph2.Ph3).(ph2.Ph3)   
 
 12.(Ph2.ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 
15.(Ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.ph3) 

16.(Ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.Ph3)

Hope that's helpful.

Tim DH 

The line 7 is well that
(ph2. Ph3 ).(Ph2.ph3)

Good idea Tim Dh to colored Ph2 and Ph3 in red!

1-16.(ph2.ph3).(ph2.ph3) 0 nr
16-1.(Ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) (2⁰+2¹+2²+2³)

2-5.(ph2.ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 1 (2⁰) Ph3
5-2.(ph2.Ph3).(ph2.ph3) 4 (2²) Ph3

3-9.(ph2.ph3).(Ph2.ph3) 2 (2¹)  Ph2
9-3.(Ph2.ph3).(ph2.ph3) 8 (2³) Ph2

4-13.(ph2.ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 3 (2⁰+2¹)
13-4.(Ph2.Ph3).(ph2.ph3) 12 (2²+2³)

6-11.(ph2.Ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 5 (2⁰+2²) Ph3
11-6.(Ph2.ph3). (Ph2.ph3) 10 (2¹+2³) Ph2

7-10.(ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.ph3) 6 (2¹+2²)
10-7.(Ph2.ph3).(ph2.Ph3)9 (2⁰+2³)

8-14.(ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 7 (2⁰+2¹+2²)
14-8.(Ph2.Ph3).(ph2.Ph3) 13 (2⁰+2²+2³)

12-15.(Ph2.ph3).(Ph2.Ph3) 11 (2⁰+2¹+2³)
15-12.(Ph2.Ph3).(Ph2.ph3) 14 (2¹+2²+2³)

Nr or ph2.ph3 = line 1
Ph2= line 3-9-11
Ph3= line 2-5-6
Ph2.Ph3=line 4-13-7-10-8-14-12-15-16

I think really that it will usefull!

ph2 ph3 heterozygous.jpg

Abigail F1 is heterozygous for both ph2 and ph3.

The European open source seed organization now has five tomatoes with some late blight resistance.
Sunviva, Vivagrande, Marchenwald, Marchenglanz, Marchenengel, very interesting looking work!

https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-%E2%80%9Esunviva%E2%80%9C
https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-vivagrande
https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-m%C3%A4rchenwald
https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-m%C3%A4rchenglanz
https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-m%C3%A4rchenengel

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-03-02, 09:15:45 PMThe European open source seed organization now has five tomatoes with some late blight resistance.
Sunviva, Vivagrande, Marchenwald, Marchenglanz, Marchenengel, very interesting looking work!

https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-%E2%80%9Esunviva%E2%80%9C
https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-vivagrande
https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-m%C3%A4rchenwald
https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-m%C3%A4rchenglanz
https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-m%C3%A4rchenengel

Very cool! I imagine if one were to make a cross with these and something OSSI Pledged you would need to adopt the European Open Source German Court protection rather than the simple OSSI Pledge. Something I think would be wonderful!

I grew most of those last year, and even if LB pressure was light, they showed more health at the end the season than the standards cultivars.

I confirm that sunviva taste is a little more fruity.

I think it is very interesting that our European members and then our European sister organization are working very hard on this problem out of necessity! Some of those tomatoes look fantastic and would be very useful for further breeding!

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2021-12-28, 04:29:17 PMThere I asked him a question about how he does it and he uses agbiotech in California. https://agbiotech.net/dna-markers/?fbclid=IwAR2tgIaL-QuhNzxn_q2z_IaLTJYB9gFrzlZLK4TzlbhITOVUXxxQ2XydEDA (https://agbiotech.net/dna-markers/?fbclid=IwAR2tgIaL-QuhNzxn_q2z_IaLTJYB9gFrzlZLK4TzlbhITOVUXxxQ2XydEDA) you can click on the tomatoes there and see that they offer PH2 and PH3 testing a long with a lot of other tomato genes.

They can just test for PH2 and PH3 for us. Which probably wouldn't be too expensive for one set of tests. It would be pretty expensive though for a whole segregating F2 I am guessing.

I'm a little afraid to email them and ask what it costs

Did anyone find out the costs yet? I think it could be great to test. Maybe growing out F2 (e.g. from a homozygous ph-2 and ph-3 crossed with something early and tasty and preferably with some hab. LB resistance if possible) and even deliberately infecting all the seedlings with blight, or taking cuttings from each and infecting the cuttings, then maybe send off to test the ones that pass that test but also have other desirable traits by the end of the season?

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2022-10-22, 01:53:07 PMLA1033 has a multi gene resistance to late blight that briefly got the PH4 designation before it was reassigned to a single gene trait in a pimpinillifolium accession or some such. Mainstream breeders have little use for this because using it would be difficult.

In the paper 'Identification and mapping of quantitative resistance to late blight (Phytophthora infestans) in Solanum habrochaites LA1777' - Junming Li - 2009, it seems LA1777 is significalty superior against LB than LA1033. Why would you use the latter rather than the former?

That is a good question. First I heard of that paper. I believe I have LA1033 but do not have LA1777. Haven't made much progress with LA1033. Might have saved a small amount of uncrossed seed.

Another thought though is: for diversity. LA1777 is quite famous. It might be good to go with obscure on occasion.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-09-05, 04:40:22 PMAnother thought though is: for diversity. LA1777 is quite famous. It might be good to go with obscure on occasion.

Maybe a way around that without having to reduce LB resistance, would be to cross LA1777 with those lesser resistance strains like LA1033 and LA2099, grow them for a few years in an area with heavy blight (or better still, deliberately expose them to various different strains of blight like in that paper), and then use the offspring for crossing with domestics?

I have 4 types of hab growing. 1 has some blight, one more maybe not or maybe a little, and 2 have none, LA1777 and one other that is earlier but likely not as good against LB in general. I have made cross attempts but rather late, though might get fruit. With the intention of using for crosses in future generations to combine LB resistance and more early. But I had only 1 LA1777 and 2 of the other, so, not ideal. Well, not for making a good sustainable population, but even their F1 could be useful for using in crossing maybe. Probably more useful than just the pure earlier 1 and would fit the diversity criterion! And next year if I want to work towards a sustainable population of habs I could just grow them among more of each of those 2 accessions.

Late blight test:

As a test, I infected a number of deliberately selected seedlings with Phytophthota.
I sowed the following varieties:
Black cherry (no resistance genes)
Koralik (ph2 homozygous)
Sungreenf1 x Vivagrande (ph3 heterozygous)
Sungreenf1 x Mountaineer pride (ph2 and ph3 heterozygous)
Primabella (ph2 and ph3 homozygous)

Leaves collected from varieties that do not possess resistance genes. The leaves or stems were affected by approximately 50%.
Place the leaves in a container with water.

The test was 30 days after sowing. The seedlings just had the 3rd true leaf in the head of the plant

The next day, mist this water over the seedlings so that the leaves and stems were thoroughly wet.
After this, place the tray with seedlings under plastic and spray water into the plastic on the bottom so that the humidity remains 90%. It was 15 to 25*C.

24 hours later the humidity appeared to drop and the seedlings were therefore sprayed again with contaminated water.
12 hours later, remove the plastic and let the seedlings continue to grow dry.

The first attack was visible 72 hours after the first spraying. Some leaves seemed to dry up.

The status was drawn up 5 days after the 2nd infection:
90% affected on leaves and stem: (no resistance genes)
75% affected on leaves and stem: (ph2 homozygous)
75% infected on leaves, stems are free of infection: (ph3 heterozygous)
50% infected on leaves, stems are free of infection: (ph2 and ph3 heterozygous)
<10% affected on leaf: (ph2 and ph3 homozygous)


For pictures check here:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ARvTSK8GhHgzADrKFXqNZcBgvsvvAkFRj32mgbN7HXeFppFRy8QJrggp4WwmS95Kl&id=100024953531011

Nice work Roland.

How did you make your innoculum (contaminated water)?

Have you any idea which strain or strains of blight it was?

My reading of this paper:

https://research.bangor.ac.uk/portal/files/7454967/PDB4626-00.pdf

Is that the researchers found eleven different strains of Late Blight in samples collected from amateur growers.

Because of poor germination (Tut tut, expensive commercial seed as well) I only got one plant of Crimson Cherry F1 this year. It's supposed to have two blight resistant genes (ph2 & ph3?) but it got completely wiped out by Blight.

Somewhat surprisingly, my own F1s with Latah as pollen parent are still producing. Everything else is long dead.

Everything I planted this year is long dead except the Sungold F1s. Brown shriveled stalks, with leaves eaten by tomato hornworms. I've pulled all of them and tossed them in the woods (not compost).

I don't think the Sungold F1 have any resistance. I just planted those later in the season, and that let them escape the worst of the infection.

It was an extremely hot, wet year, and I had planted my tomatoes very densely for the trial, so they may have been weaker with less room to root.

That is nice work, Roland.  Definitely looks like homozygous is the way to go.

It's interesting that late blight has such a similar resistance profile to early blight (Alternaria), with resistance being specific to leafs vs stems.
For Alternaria blight the stage of maturity of the plant, whether fruiting, ripening, heavy fruit load etc makes a big difference to resistance as well.   Indeterminate plants are more resistant than determinates, perhaps because of this.  The ethylene given off at ripening and the hormonal pathways involved in ripening really drop the plant's resistance and makes for a worst case exactly when you want to keep your leaves and stems in place. 

I recently read a covid study, that was in a CT correctional center, and their work showed that high virus load caused resistance from prior vaccine and/or prior infection to collapse, with much lower rates of protection than you would expect.
I think with these plant diseases it is the same, resistance only holds to a certain point after which the overwhelming spore load (produced by non resistant plants as hosts) makes complete resistance impossible. 

My Crosses with some hope for Late Blight Breeding
MMM x LB PH5 Pimp PI 270443
MMM x Purple Zebra F1
MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp PI 270443) which may make recovering potato leaf blue exserted bicolor and size easier.
(MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 PI 270443 pimpinillifolium)
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x PH5 LB pimp PI 270443 ) x (MMM x LA1375)
Sunviva x MMMF3
(MMM X Purple Zebra) X (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
MMR Dwarf No Blue x (MMM X PH5 LB Pimp PI 270443)
Amethyst Cream x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1)
Galahad F1 x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1)
Utah Heart x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) - collaboration with Reed whose varieties survive diseases.
Utah Heart x (MMR Dwarf) - collaboration with Reed whose varieties survive diseases.
(MMM x Purple zebra) x (mmm x galapagense x)

Quote from: nathanp on 2019-03-10, 02:56:18 PMHomozygous for Ph3
Plum Regal

Plum Regal F1 is heterozygous for Ph3

From this document (https://www.fruitlent.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/hortscience_plum_regal.pdf), parents are NC 25P and NC 30P

From this page (https://mountainhort.ces.ncsu.edu/fresh-market-tomato-breeding/tomato-seedlines/), NC 25P has Ph3, but not NC 30P

I've pretty much cleared out the tomato plants for the year. But to my surprise, while almost everything planted at the start of the season is throughly dead and turned into a brown mush (without a frost, so probably late blight)...

...the Uluru Ochre plants are still tall, firm, and green.

Unfortunately, they still haven't produced any fruit, and apparently won't here.

But if you can get Uluru Ochre to fruit at your growing location, it may have some excellent genes for surviving late blight that could be crossed into any projects you have.

Sorry to hear about your lack of fruit. My Uluru Ochre has been quite productive. ....

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-09-27, 11:52:11 AMBut if you can get Uluru Ochre to fruit at your growing location, it may have some excellent genes for surviving late blight

What makes you think this? Also, is it possible that it requires short days to flower? Mine is now flowering under short day conditions.

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2023-09-28, 04:32:08 AMWhat makes you think this?

The fact that mine was tall (for a dwarf), with a thick, healthy stem and healthy green leaves, at a time when nearly every tomato plant surrounding it had turned brown and died.

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2023-09-28, 04:32:08 AMIs it possible that it requires short days to flower? Mine is now flowering under short day conditions.

I doubt it, because mine flowered all summer. But the flowers never yielded fruit, while all the tomato plants surrounding it produced a steady supply of fruit.

Ah, I had one of Joseph's 'elites' like that, did well while others were dying from blight around it, set plenty of flowers, but almost no fruit. Probably due to the inserted stigmas and being self incompatible, I'd guess (this one I mean, not Uluru Ochre). I'm still really curious what's going on there, since of the 8 fruits it did make, 5 of them were ones I had hand pollinated. I clearly accepts SC pollen. I've seen that with BH-NT as well, which seems to be derived from Joseph's BH line but crossed with something with late blight resistance, and has open anthers and very accessible stigma. I'd love to know what's making that happen, what mechanism! Seems so strange to be able to receive SC pollen from others but not their own pollen. And I have tested them the other way around - SC plants can be pollinated by their pollen. So it seems quite different from the usual SI system.

Anyway that's nice news about Uluru Ochre disease resistance at least, perhaps it will give value in crosses.

Yes, it was very odd. I've never heard that Uluru Ochre could be self-incompatible, but even if it were, it was surrounded by other tomato varieties producing pollen and a healthy bee population.

My guess is that something was causing early blossom drop, but that's just a guess, and even if true I have no idea of the root cause.

Oh yeah I'm not at all suggesting Uluru Ochre could be SI. Just that what you said related to my experience, for different reasons. My talking about those 'promiscuous tomatoes' not being able to pollinate themselves but readily receiving SC pollen, was pretty off topic really, it's just something that's been on my mind and I seem to be the only one talking about it, so I'm still trying to work that out.

You may be the only one who has observed it! Very interesting observation though!

Intriguing. I wonder if I am the only one who has observed it because I am the only one who has tried and recorded results, or if it is merely due to outliers making up my very small sample size?

Oddly on the back porch at the work week apartment I planted three R18 and one The One in pots. They got extremely tall, showing that tbey are not dwarf, and dropped flowers. I tried pollinating them, without emasculation, with some pollen from Brad Gate's Amethyst Cream and they finally have set very green fruit. I may clip off a bouquet of them, if frost is predicted, and I am there. Grow them next year and see if there are any crosses. Hmm I should separate a thread here.

Oh also my hoped for crossing block to get MMM x The One didn't work last year but The One x MMM may just have. 2023 Third generation the one plants seem to be ~5 varieties and it is very unclear if it is segregation and or hybridization that is the culprit.

https://landracegardening.discourse.group/t/blight-trials-for-williams-tomatoes/1638/5

Julia Dakin posted some very interesting results for some of my accumulated late blight breeding material and some of my other material in her late blight prone Coastal California garden. Long cool growing season down there.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-09-27, 11:52:11 AMI've pretty much cleared out the tomato plants for the year. But to my surprise, while almost everything planted at the start of the season is throughly dead and turned into a brown mush (without a frost, so probably late blight)...

...the Uluru Ochre plants are still tall, firm, and green.

Unfortunately, they still haven't produced any fruit, and apparently won't here.

But if you can get Uluru Ochre to fruit at your growing location, it may have some excellent genes for surviving late blight that could be crossed into any projects you have.

I got one very late tomato from Uluru Ochre but didn't manage a cross. I ended up cutting into it too early for good flavor so just saved the seed.

Oh wow that's great news about Uluru Ochre! I was just crossing to it today in fact, and have numerous crossed fruits in both directions forming. The pollen I was using on it today was a few kinds of domestic x chm. F1s. I heard chm. can give earliness, apparently, if I understood this correctly:

QuoteFinally, an F 2 population derived from S. lycopersicum and its late-flowering wild relative S. chmielewskii (line CH6047) was used to study the genetic mechanisms underlying flowering time in tomato (Table 9.7; Jime´nez-Go´mez et al. 2007). This work allowed the identification of two QTLs affecting days to flowering and six QTLs for leaf number (the number of leaves under the first inflorescence). Interestingly, some of the early flowering QTL alleles were contributed by the S. chmielewskii parent, highlighting the usefulness of this wild species for the improvement of flowering time, and in general the importance of exploiting the genetic variation existing among all wild relatives of tomato.

Source: Wild Crop Relatives- Genomic and Breeding Resources - Vegetables - Chapter-9.-Solanum-sect.-Lycopersicon.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-11-10, 11:27:34 AMJulia Dakin posted some very interesting results for some of my accumulated late blight breeding material

I'm surprised Iron Lady suffered from late blight! It's homozygous Ph2 + Ph3, which I thought was basically the gold standard fro LB resistance. That's kind of worrying. Are we sure it's LB they were suffering from?

Nothing is certain. Also, in the accompanying imagery- it looks like the Iron Lady vines did survive. Where some of the strains like my Mission Mountain Sunrise of which we didn't really expect any resistance to anything- they just died very nice and cleanly dead.

Also: it could be a vigor thing. Last year I noticed that the F2 Iron Lady parents of the F3 Julia grew out were kind of low vigor meh. Someone suggested that could be outbreeding depression and might improve in the F3 and subsequent. I think Julia's results seem consistent with that hypothesis.

Iron Lady F1 is determinate, so even if it takes LB well, it looks less healthy at the end of the season because of the lack of continuous growth.

It does seem like there is a lot that goes into the health and productivity of a tomato plant other than the resistances themselves. Extremely short season dwarfs did ok for Julia. As did very vigorous Solanum pimpinellifolium. More than one way to approach problem solving a set of difficult growing conditions.

Quote from: Nicolas on 2023-11-11, 11:37:15 PMIron Lady F1 is determinate, so even if it takes LB well, it looks less healthy at the end of the season because of the lack of continuous growth.

Here's what Julia put in that file for Iron Lady F2:
Screenshot 2023-11-12 at 21.37.11.png

Screenshot 2023-11-12 at 21.37.45.png

In her trial Iron Lady F3 was pretty healthy so it was maybe not LB that plagued the F2

Someone predicted this last year when the F2 was low vigour for me.

Quote from: Nicolas on 2023-11-13, 04:58:24 AMIn her trial Iron Lady F3 was pretty healthy so it was maybe not LB that plagued the F2

Yeah I was curious whether it might not be late blight. She wrote only 'blight' which could be various diseases but it seemed she meant 'late blight', but I wonder if it was surely diagnosed?

Also if she had successful F3, I wonder why went back to F2 instead of using F4....

I can take the blame for that F2 and F3 thing. I grew the seed! All from the same original packet of Iron Lady F1. I grew a few one year, then a few of the F2 and original F1 the next. Saved some seed of both. Shared both with Julia, so she grew both. Did not manage a cross with them which I intended to in order to help with Carol Deppe's original plan.

I am not qualified to speculate on the plant pathology in someone else's garden.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-09-13, 05:50:07 AMMy Crosses with some hope for Late Blight Breeding
MMM x LB PH5 Pimp PI 270443
MMM x Purple Zebra F1
MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp PI 270443) which may make recovering potato leaf blue exserted bicolor and size easier.
(MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 PI 270443 pimpinillifolium)
(MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
(MMM x PH5 LB pimp PI 270443 ) x (MMM x LA1375)
Sunviva x MMMF3
(MMM X Purple Zebra) X (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
MMR Dwarf No Blue x (MMM X PH5 LB Pimp PI 270443)
Amethyst Cream x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1)
Galahad F1 x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1)
Utah Heart x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette) - collaboration with Reed whose varieties survive diseases.
Utah Heart x (MMR Dwarf) - collaboration with Reed whose varieties survive diseases.
(MMM x Purple zebra) x (mmm x galapagense x)

Late Blight Clade

• Mission Mountain Morning (MMM) x LB PH5 Pimp
• MMM x Purple Zebra F1
• MMM x LA1375- originally intended for a different disease or diseases but seems relevant here too based on performance in grow out reports of LA1375.
• Dwarf Gloria's Treat x current mix- included LA1375, PH5, and sweet cherriette

I made many more potentially relevant crosses in 2023:
2023 Crosses

• MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp) which may make recovering potato leaf blue exserted bicolor easier.
• (MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
• (MMM x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM x LA1375)
• (MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375)
• Sunviva x MMMF3
• (MMM X Purple Zebra) X (MMM x Brad's Atomic Grape)
• MMR Dwarf No Blue x (MMM X PH5 LB Pimp)
• Amethyst Cream x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1)
• Galahad F1 x (MMM X Purple Zebra F1)
• Utah Heart x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
• Utah Heart x (MMR Dwarf)
• (MMM x Purple zebra) x (mmm x galapagense x)
• Mr. Stripey x (MMM x Purple Zebra F1)
• Hoosier Rose x (MMM x LA1375)

Just PH5 PI 270443 - NE9 - Seed - Solanum pimpinellifolium L. May be PH5 Source Material

• Mission Mountain Morning (MMM) x LB PH5 Pimp
• Dwarf Gloria's Treat x current mix- included LA1375, PH5, and sweet cherriette
• MMM x (MMM x LB Pimp) which may make recovering potato leaf blue exserted bicolor easier.
• (MMM F2 x Purple Zebra F1) x (MMM F2 x PH5 pimpinillifolium)
• (MMM x PH5 LB pimp) x (MMM x LA1375)
• MMR Dwarf No Blue x (MMM X PH5 LB Pimp)

I harvested a few more crosses since I posted the list I quoted above in September. Everything is now in seed packets for 2023.

Thinking heavily about the PI 270443 potential PH5 source material Solanum pimpinillifolium this morning. Wondering if I should grow it out again and make some more crosses with it.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-11-28, 05:44:54 AMJust PH5 PI 270443 - NE9 - Seed - Solanum pimpinellifolium L. May be PH5 Source Material

Unless there's something I'm missing, based on the PhD dissertation GENETIC CHARACTERIZATION AND MAPPING OF LATE BLIGHT RESISTANCE GENES IN THE WILD TOMATO ACCESSION PI 270443, I think that can be upgraded to certainty.

Also William, what do you reckon would be the wisest course of action - to work on a PH-2+3 population separate from a PH-5 population? Or, combined? I'm thinking that maybe with marker assistance (which would be great), combined could be awesome, but without marker assistance, perhaps separate would be better, since even with heavy disease pressure, it might not be possible to breed homozygosity for all 3 together?

Are there markers for ph5.1 and ph5.2?

These are good questions! I thought the thesis someone shared teo years ago was something like a masters thesis and didn't have the accession number in the title. Hmm now I need to look up this PhD thesis. That PHD project could have potentially found the markers for the two PH5 genes Roland.

Justin I already have started the process of mixing all three resistances in my late blight breeding grex. So I guess I stand by that decision per my advice. However I think it's important that pathogens face variability not uniformity. I think that is part of why small agriculture persisted for deep time and large agriculture looks to have serious sustainability issues.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-11-28, 06:14:25 PMI think it's important that pathogens face variability not uniformity.

I am surprised at the amount of focus on a few selected vertical resistance genes that I see on this site.

I would think the bigger opportunity for amateur breeders is horizontal resistance.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-11-29, 01:06:30 PMI am surprised at the amount of focus on a few selected vertical resistance genes that I see on this site.

I would think the bigger opportunity for amateur breeders is horizontal resistance.

I have a belt and suspenders model with this bit also a variability model. I don't think in terms of the vertical vs horizontal dichotomy if it even truly exists. All forms of resistance evolved and within the context of natural populations have proven useful enough to persist. So I don't see any reason to exclude one group or the other of resistances. I see tremendous potential in keeping populations non-uniform, introducing as many resistances as possible but at the population level, and in crossing with vigorous robust plants. Two extremely different sources of robustness in my 2023 garden were the Solanum habrochaites accession LA2329 and its hybrids and Reed's old standby tomatoes. I see a lot of value in breeding with both.

Where I think we really get out classed by nature is big uniform fields of food plants without variability. Aka modern agriculture. It leads the mainstream plant breeders to constantly chase better resistance but they've created the need for that by growing genetically uniform crops.

Though on the flipside if an indestructible paste tomato falls of a truck- it probably has been bred to have extremely durable resistance. I don't know if I would breed with it, but I would be tempted. If I found it volunteering in a dry stream bed I might go for it.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-11-29, 01:06:30 PMI am surprised at the amount of focus on a few selected vertical resistance genes that I see on this site.

I would think the bigger opportunity for amateur breeders is horizontal resistance.

My impression is that the only tomatoes we know of that have really good LB resistance, are from PH-2, 3, and 5. And some in habrochaites which I haven't noticed anyone being able to bring to lyc. That's why it's my focus, perhaps same reason for others too. I have heard of 2 people who seem to have some resistance from unknown sources, don't know if that is from the same genes or something else - I wonder if they might have resulted from unknown crosses with some commercial LB resistant varieties with PH genes. For lower LB pressure, weaker different resistance might be useful, like from Stupice, but I think for many of us such weak resistance is not useful.

I read the whole chapter 'Resistance: Vertical and Horizontal' and a bit beyond, from Return To Resistance␁ - Raoul ␁A.␁Robinson. I have to say I was entirely disappointed. To me it seemed he used an awful lot of words to say almost nothing at all, and even gave no actual examples of what he was talking about, let alone examples of horizontal resistance failing, which would be rather crucial - how are we to understand how something works without understanding how it doesn't work? So we really need, or should I say I would need in order to take it seriously, a real life example of it, and an example of a pathology that has overcome such resistance. He gave neither.

Not only that but his logic made no sense to me. He from what I remember created his definition in such a way that if horizontal resistance were ever overcome, even if it took millions of years to do so, then it never was horizonal resistance in the first place. That seems like nonsense to me. And, while he implied that horizontal resistance is basically a defence made up of two or more genes (which in fact would include PH-2 + PH-3 tomatoes!), he seemed to be saying that horizontal resistance can in fact just be from one single gene, which to me makes his whole position self-contradictory and meaningless:

QuoteHorizontal resistance is the resistance of the biometricians. Its definitive characteristic is that it does not involve a gene-for-gene relationship. However, its most prominent characteristic is that it is usually, but not invariably, inherited polygenically.

Here's another thing he wrote in that chapter:

QuoteVertical resistance is the resistance of the Mendelians. It is normally qualitative resistance in the sense that it is either present or absent, and there are no intermediates. However, there are a few exceptions to this rule (see Glossary: quantitative vertical resistance). Horizontal resistance is the resistance of the biometricians. It is quantitative resistance in the sense that it can occur at every level between a minimum and a maximum.

Well that applies to PH-2 and PH-3 genes. Simply by their presence or absence, we have, what's that, 12 possible combinations? (Either can be hetero- or homozygous). And the resistance will be a spectrum through those combinations. None of them will have full protection against LB. Seems to perfectly fit his definition of horizontal resistance.

I took his idea seriously without really knowing what it meant, but a discussion some time ago triggered me to read that part of the book, and, well I felt there was nothing to take from it. So I just think in terms of having as much protection as possible. I would love to combine PH-2, 3 and 5; and I would love to have another population with none of those genes but breeding for the same resistance, with tomatoes with some experienced resistance with no name for how they do it, keeping them separate so that their own resistance increases instead of fading away if they get PH genes and rely on them instead. I want separate population so that if the PH genes fail, I still have something else that works, and something less common would be useful since perhaps it will be large scale agriculture where LB will have enough opportunities to work through their defences. So a rarely used defence system is, I would expect, at an advantage in that respect. That's the approach I have settled on for now.

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2023-11-29, 05:40:19 PMwith tomatoes with some experienced resistance with no name for how they do it, keeping them separate so that their own resistance increases instead of fading away if they get PH genes and rely on them instead

I guess that is sort of what's going on with my tomatoes, I'll just call it dumb luck for now. That second point never occurred to me, and I certainly don't want that to happen.

It's a bit like how I view things like artificially tinkering with soil chemistry and stuff like that. My garden works as it is. I'm sure it could be better at least in short term, but I think messing with something that I don't completely understand is a bad I idea. If it's not broke, it really is best not to fix it. I have seen a time or two when someone else grew my tomatoes using fertilizer and regular watering, they got bigger yields than I do, but I get plenty for our use without any of that. Making peace with good enough, is a big part of my overall garden philosophy. Maybe a tomato plant is supposed to make ten pounds of tomatoes instead of twenty. Sure, the twenty is doable, if, if, if, but all of those ifs are artificial, and I suspect counterproductive in the long run.   

I'm still going to grow my new PH crossed tomatoes though and see how they turn out. I really want to see what comes from the crosses William did with my tomatoes. My very limited, past experience with PH gene tomatoes was, inconclusive. For most of them I don't know how well they may have done in late season, because early season issues took them out before they had the chance. All the leaves on one called Iron Lady curled up and turned brown very early.  I hope with these new seeds, being 1/2 from genetics used to my garden will fare better.

Quote from: reed on 2023-11-30, 07:20:38 AMI have seen a time or two when someone else grew my tomatoes using fertilizer and regular watering, they got bigger yields than I do, but I get plenty for our use without any of that. Making peace with good enough, is a big part of my overall garden philosophy. Maybe a tomato plant is supposed to make ten pounds of tomatoes instead of twenty. Sure, the twenty is doable, if, if, if, but all of those ifs are artificial, and I suspect counterproductive in the long run.   

Yes I would guess that perhaps, if one fed tomatoes in that way for enough generations (especially if there was some rate of outcrossing), then the yeilds might be good but they might adapt to need that, and then when that condition is taken away, they might do considerably worse than they did before that process started.

My personal aim is to make neglectable tomatoes. So, even in the first generation before making crosses, when we had a long hot dry spell, and my neighbour was watering their tomatoes every day, I did it maybe once every 10 days. I hope to neglect them more than that in the F2, or at least some of them. Same goes for fertiliser. I don't mind putting some mulch or something like that now and then, but I don't want to do too much work, so, I want to breed them to be as neglectable as possible. Not just for my sake but for others, in fact the main purpose is so that lazy people can grow delicious food. Or not even just about laziness, but general tolerance to changing conditions, and hopefully relative ease of many people growing them in the upcoming global food crisis. In this regard I agree with you - pampering them would be counterproductive. The only ones I consider pampering are hard-to-grow F0 and the F1 is they may be vulnerable. But not from F2 onwards :-)

Quote from: reed on 2023-11-30, 07:20:38 AMI'm still going to grow my new PH crossed tomatoes though and see how they turn out.

Yeah sounds cool. If it so happens that your resistance in your other tomatoes has not come somehow from the PH genes, then you might want to keep those ones at a bit of a distance from any with known PH genes, if you don't want them to get those genes too. And if somehow yours did acquire some PH genes, I would guess it might be PH-1, 2, or 3, but not 5 since it seems 5 hasn't been used in commercial tomatoes yet, that I know of anyway, or if so maybe only very recently?

Mixing them all up might also be very good. I would just worry that if the PH-5 resistance is stronger than an unnamed one, the unnamed resistance might have no competitive advantage to stick around. I don't know how justified that thought is - perhaps it would. If it were me I would at least carefully save some seeds for the future so that if they do cross I could always go back to pre-crossed material if necessary, such as if/when PH-5 is overcome.

Quote from: reed on 2023-11-30, 07:20:38 AMMy very limited, past experience with PH gene tomatoes was, inconclusive. For most of them I don't know how well they may have done in late season, because early season issues took them out before they had the chance. All the leaves on one called Iron Lady curled up and turned brown very early.

That's curious, from what I remember that's PH-2 and PH3 homozygous so should be among the very best LB resistance. But I guess maybe if it did that early, it wasn't LB. I wonder if it was the same issue which Julia had with hers and had assumed was LB?

The LB resistant ones you grow now, were they showing such resistance before you (or neighbours) ever grew commercial LB resistant varieties, or, only after? And from what I remember, one of your LB resistant ones is the one you refer to as 'my Mr. Stripy' - is that different from other people's Mr. Stripy? I seem to remember there may be more than one variety by that name, so I am curious if it is one of those others know about and has the same degree of LB resistance as that, or if it is peculiar to your garden, with increased LB resistance to any of the ones in the community by that name.

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2023-11-30, 01:22:33 PMMy personal aim is to make neglectable tomatoes.

I guess mine are sort of that, I wish I could let them sprawl on the ground, but I don't have room for that. 

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2023-11-30, 01:22:33 PMIf it were me I would at least carefully save some seeds for the future so that if they do cross I could always go back to pre-crossed material if necessary, such as if/when PH-5 is overcome.

Absolutely! I have lots of backup seeds.

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2023-11-30, 01:22:33 PMThat's curious, from what I remember that's PH-2 and PH3 homozygous so should be among the very best LB resistance. But I guess maybe if it did that early, it wasn't LB. I wonder if it was the same issue which Julia had with hers and had assumed was LB?

Could have been, sometimes it's easy to jump to conclusions. I have several tomato diseases in my garden, I've never bothered to positively identify them. 

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2023-11-30, 01:22:33 PMThe LB resistant ones you grow now, were they showing such resistance before you (or neighbours) ever grew commercial LB resistant varieties, or, only after? And from what I remember, one of your LB resistant ones is the one you refer to as 'my Mr. Stripy' - is that different from other people's Mr. Stripy?

I had Mr. Stripey years before I ever heard of late blight. Also, Cherokee Purple but it isn't as tolerant as Mr. Stripy. Oh yea, almost forgot the pimps only I always called them currents, I've had them a long time too. The others in my pictures I've gotten more recently.

I don't know if my Mr. Stripey is the same as others by the name or how many go by it, but I suspect maybe yes, and no. Nobody else I know of grows it except from my plants, never seen it at farmer market but you can buy it by that name.

I have a goofy theory that all the Mr. Stripy - like tomatoes are probably related and linked to some that came back from Europe into the Appalachian Mountains and spread from there. That's why I got that new one Willard Wynn, this year to see how it compared. It did well enough, I'm growing it again next year. I'm going to get two or three more nest year. I also have another called pineapple, very similar but not productive at all. Pineapple, at least the one I have is nicely tolerant, Willard Wynn had some variation, which I found surprising and of course Mr. Stripey. I want to find more of them that fit in with the group and maybe try to cross them with each other.

I think it might be a situation somewhat peculiar to my garden, but I can't really explain it. It is strongest but it doesn't apply to just the Mr. Stripy. I only got Utah Heart less than ten years ago and what I call Hoosier Rose about the same time, and they do fine, they replaced others I had had for decades.

"My personal aim is to make neglectable tomatoes."

This is one reason why amateur breeders are still important.

Commercial breeders are going to focus on maximum yield when treated in a very specific, carefully controlled environment with lots of commercial pesticides and fertilizers.

I think a segregating population should be perfect for keeping multiple genetics like PH and non PH tomatoes as long as it is large enough. The only 2023 cross I made with Reeds with PH genes was 1/4 purple Zebra F1. So even in the F1 only some of them will pick up those genetics.

I have been pretty obsessed with bicolor tomatoes like pineapple and mr. Stripey. If it is a related group I've been personally doing my duty to make it more diverse at the genetic level. Though I think I found some new good ones in other colors. Some of the green when ripe are way better than I thought.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-11-30, 05:33:49 PMI have been pretty obsessed with bicolor tomatoes like pineapple and mr. Stripey. If it is a related group I've been personally doing my duty to make it more diverse at the genetic level

We love the bi-colors or tricolors. Any combination of red, orange, yellow, in swirls or streaks. There are bad ones, like tigerella, but the big juicy ones with soft tender skin are just about all good. Differences are mostly in general stress tolerance and level of production. Green ones are ok too but haven't found one as tolerant or productive as the yellow.

I need t go back through the thread and find those that were being discontinued, and that link to those old paintings.

 

Justin, there may be some issues with Raoul's exact language in the book, but the overall concept made sense to me.

Instead of looking for specific alleles that given a great deal of protection against a very specific disease organism, the idea of horizontal resistance (it seems to me) is to look for genes that make the plant generally stronger, more resistant to any infection, and better able to survive the impact of any disease.

In practice, this just means that you grow your varieties in your garden where you have disease issues, and each year select the ones that do best.

The most controversial part is where he suggests culling plants that show 100% resistance to a specific disease. But I understand where he's coming from. It would be difficult to develop the plant's overall background resistance to infection if a few genes are providing so much protection that no selection is taking place on the rest of the genome.

Perhaps another approach would be to refrain from culling resistant plants, but grow them and select in an environment with a lot of disease pressure from many diseases, not just one or two. Then even the plants with disease-organism-specific vertical resistance will be undergoing selection because of the presence of other diseases.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-01, 07:44:49 AMJustin, there may be some issues with Raoul's exact language in the book, but the overall concept made sense to me.

I can't judge the book as a whole as I just read that chapter on horizontal resistance and a bit surrounding it. To me, the concept sounded nice. I just didn't see it grounded in any kind of evidence or examples, which implies to me that much of what he was saying may have been fantasy.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-01, 07:44:49 AMInstead of looking for specific alleles that given a great deal of protection against a very specific disease organism, the idea of horizontal resistance (it seems to me) is to look for genes that make the plant generally stronger, more resistant to any infection, and better able to survive the impact of any disease.

Is there much difference in genes and alleles? Also I wonder, if one person has a plant which is resistant to late blight, and calls it horizontal resistance, then another person does some genetic analysis and find it is because of two genes, is that now vertical resistance because the genes have been identified? Of course my question is a little absurd, but that is not entirely by accident.

Also while the idea of plants having genes making them resistant to any infection is naturally very appealing to me, the species of tomato most renowned for disease resistance that I know of, is S. peruvianum. And I grew quite a few different accessions in my garden this year. They did great! Until, that is, late bight came, and it killed all of them. It also killed my various pimp accessions.

This was a bit of a surprise to me. But this is also what made me interested in specific genes, because so far as I have been able to discern, the only resistance I have heard of that can withstand heavy late blight such as we get here, is in/from some specific pimp accessions, and some specific habrochaites accessions. And I have not heard of anyone bringing that resistance over from hab. And, the genes responsible for that resistance in pimp have been identified, and are readily hereditable.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-01, 07:44:49 AMThe most controversial part is where he suggests culling plants that show 100% resistance to a specific disease.

Yes, that sounds absurd to me. For example, suppose he were given a bunch of unidentified F2 tomato seeds that had a parent that was homozygous for PH-2 and 3. He would get some plants that would be homozygous for both, some heterozygous for both, some homo for one, hetero for the other, and so on through all the combinations. Suppose those homozygous for both showed no signs of late blight in his garden, which is quite likely - he would eliminate them! Even those heterozygous for both or hetero for one, homo for the other, might show no signs of blight! So throw them out too. So he may end up with some lines that have none at all, and maybe do not too bad in some seasons if he doesn't have much LB, and some others that do well stabilizing as homozygous for just one, which may end up being PH-2 since depending on conditions, PH-3 might be 'too good' for him! Plus, rather ironically, it sounds like he would call PH-2 + 3 homozygous 'vertical resistance' because in this scenario it would give total resistance, and PH-2 homozygous 'horizontal' because of only partial resistance, which might be rather embarrassing when it was revealed to him that his 'vertical' one was 'inherited polygenically' (which is in accordance with his definition of horizontal) and his 'horizontal' one would be due to a single gene!

So this method would lead to significantly inferior resistance, and also that resistance wouldn't last as long, as LB evolves. Plus even if he called it 'horizontal resistance' because it was only 'partial', once LB would overcome that resistance he would then say it was in fact never 'horizontal', because he defined horizontal as eternal, never possible to overcome (which so far as I understand evolution, is effectively impossible anyway).

Presumably he would also throw away hab LA1777 since that has total resistance, in many cases anyway. And if those wild pimps that are the source of PH genes never showed LB in his conditions, he should throw them away too!

If we extend this further, why not throw away all peas and carrots and wheat, because that has 100% protection against LB also! I find that logic ... illogical.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-01, 07:44:49 AMIt would be difficult to develop the plant's overall background resistance to infection if a few genes are providing so much protection that no selection is taking place on the rest of the genome.

I'm not convinced by that. Are carrots and peas and wheat unable to develop 'overall background resistance to infection' just because they are 100% protected against LB? Or ... I do not know the specific details so let's take this as a hypothetical - suppose a vigorous wild population of S. peruvianum has total protection against Cladosporium leaf mould, or ToMV - do we then discard it, and assume that it must be generally unhealthy, and that it can only hope to get 'overall background resistance to infection' if we breed out that resistance such that it becomes susceptible? I cannot imagine that being wise or true.

I'm not totally dismissing the idea. But so far, exploring it logically, and trying to ground it in realistic examples, has in my mind seemed to show that it doesn't make any sense.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-01, 07:44:49 AMPerhaps another approach would be to refrain from culling resistant plants, but grow them and select in an environment with a lot of disease pressure from many diseases, not just one or two.

Yes that seems like a logical way to breed. My idea is to breed in the area the seeds are intended to be used. So that they get to be selected for the diseases they will encounter later, which I suppose has been the standard way of breeding for the entire history of agriculture aside perhaps from some modern commercial breeding, involving deliberate gene stacking. Though I would expect they also test through their process, in the conditions they mainly sell for (which is disadvantageous to us if we live in different conditions, or if they breed for mainstream toxic agriculture and we grow organic, or they breed for commercial greenhouses and we grow outside). But they would also deliberately infect plants, and I really like that idea too. If possible I would like to not merely expose my plans to the diseases as they naturally arrive in the environment, but also to LB in some seedling trials, to save time and space. If they do badly against LB, it doesn't really matter to me if they do well against something else, or even everything else! Because there are plenty of tomatoes that do well in a season with no LB, but LB resistance seems to be the weakest link. So I would sooner eliminate everything that doesn't do well against it, and then expose the rest to the natural conditions, with as little pampering as possible, so that they can be further selected for all that. And for sure those which show no LB at all with be the most prized on that metric, won't be throwing those away!

Another thought that just occurred to me is a questioning of the concept 'overall background resistance to infection' vs 'resistance to a specific disease', by the example of diseases that Europeans, even if relatively unhealthy, could deal with fine, but people in the Americas or Australia died very easily from, even if they were healthy and their general level of immunity was very high. This relates to me to the case of peruvianum, which is so famed for its resistance to disease, and yet is so susceptible to LB. As well as to some domestic tomatoes that may be so very healthy and productive, until LB comes. And the fact that various accessions of pimp might seem to have equally wonderful general disease resistance and environmental stress tolerance, and yet when exposed to LB, some will die and those lucky enough to have those resistance genes, do fine.

Another example is Joseph's tomatoes. I think the BH line has some resistance to LB (though seems not enough for those of us with heavy LB), but the others generally seem to do very poorly against LB. I suppose I am repeating myself now, but I give them as an example of tomatoes with very diverse genetics, that do very well in Joseph's area and I'm sure in some other areas too. Like with the wild species I have grown, it seems merely being generally good or healthy, is not enough. Also I just remembered that peruvianum has been grown in Europe since... ok I'm a bit lazy now, I know it's a very long time but forgot where I read it, so I asked chat GPT and it claims since the 18th century - might be right. And it's an outcrossing species so evolution should be relatively quick. And yet, apparently that's just not enough. I know of no peruvianum that has resistance against LB.

I think long term climate might be more important to late blight and needed level of resistance than other factors.

If late blight was really a threat to all tomatoes, then all tomatoes in its natural range as a pathogen would have higher levels of resistance to it.

So I suspect areas like the pacific Northwest of the US, the Eastern US and Europe are where LB genes are most needed. I can cross in LB resistance genes but unless LB gets worse here genetic drift will continually erode its percentage in my tomato populations.

I'm still a bit confused by horizontal vs vertical resistance.

At a definition level, vertical resistance is based on a gene on gene relationship, similar to a key to lock matching. Either the plant is resistant wrt a pathogen genetic (100% resistance), either not (0%).

But modern breeders dont care about vertical vs horizontal resistance, they select for high heritability, thus (co)dominant genes with powerful effect, for ease and feasibility of pyramiding/staking resistances in parents and with F1.

Ph-X genes from pimpi are partially dominant, with significant effects, and resistance depends on LB strains.

QTLs from habrochaites are recessives, with significant effects but not as much as Ph-X it seems (difficult to have some data)

I guess one could determine if Ph-X resistance is vertical by looking at mechanisms at stake. Either it is genetically oriented, or not (such as physical features that could provide some indirect advantage)

The know thing is that it is difficult to stake Ph-X genes without markers because only one or two genes are sufficiant to provide max natural selection benefit from LB.

Quote from: Nicolas on 2023-12-02, 01:05:05 AMAt a definition level, vertical resistance is based on a gene on gene relationship, similar to a key to lock matching. Either the plant is resistant wrt a pathogen genetic (100% resistance), either not (0%).

By that definition, that would make a single PH gene 'horizontal', since it only gives partial resistance. And yet that contradicts Raoul's definition that it is eternal - PH-1 has already been overcome.

Quote from: Nicolas on 2023-12-02, 01:05:05 AMQTLs from habrochaites are recessives, with significant effects but not as much as Ph-X it seems (difficult to have some data)

I guess so long as they're homozygous, that's not a problem right? But I guess it would take a lot of breeding to get all the genes responsible over to a new population.

Are you sure the LB resistance of hab LA1777 is not as much as the PH genes? My impression was that it's stronger, I thought. My only direct experience is that I grew heterozygous PH-2+3 this year and it did finally get LB, and I grew one plant of LA1777 and it seemed to get no LB at all, and even after the first 0C temperature it survived, with some leaf damage. I had a couple of Joseph's hairy habs and they did very well too, but looked like they got a bit of LB on their stems, and did not survive the freeze - a close second best though. A few of a non-hairy hab, they got LB. And a slightly hairy hab that was nicely early, initially did great against LB while the domestics and peruvianums etc were dying, but, finally did seem to get it, and died, though produced plenty of fruit beforehand - if the resistance of this one is hereditable it still might be useful perhaps. LA1777 was amazing though, seemed totally untouched.

So I can't compare it via personal experience with homozygous PH anything, and I don't remember specifically from papers seeing them compared, but, I had thought that was the case - I might be wrong though.

Quote from: Nicolas on 2023-12-02, 01:05:05 AMThe know thing is that it is difficult to stake Ph-X genes without markers because only one or two genes are sufficient to provide max natural selection benefit from LB.

I've seen tests in papers and by a member of this forum, I think it was Roland? where plants were tested by being infected with LB, and it was really clear that PH-2 + 3 homozygous was more resistant than any other combination of PH-2 + 3 or by themselves. It was also clear that having both was better than 1, and from what I remember that 3 was better than 2, though I don't know if that applies to every strain of LB. Basically the gradient in the combinations was evident. So this seems a really good way of enabling us to stack the genes without the need for markers.

On the other hand, since PH-2 + 3 homozygous gives such strong resistance, we might need markers if we want to additionally stack PH-5. And I don't know how PH-5 compares to the others exactly, but from what I remember it itself is a combination of 2 genes on different chromosomes, and is stronger than 2+3 homozygous. So, let alone having all three PH resistances homozygous, we might need markers to get any additional ones added to PH-5. That's why I was thinking about keeping PH-5 separate, so could aim to get PH-2+3 homozygous population and separate PH-5 population just via infection trials. Though for an outcrossing population it does sound cool to put them all in the mix and hope for the best.

I fully embrace Raoul's stance of eliminating alleles that have a huge QTL for disease resistance. I would rather gather together 100 alleles that contribute 1% resistance. That explains why I am not working on stacking resistance genes into a single variety. In my own life, I'm not going to discount his work by approaching it with black/white thinking. Saying that he has to be wrong, because the QTL of a resistance trait is actually 90%...

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2023-12-01, 03:11:51 PMIs there much difference in genes and alleles?

In the case of the self-incompatibility trait in tomatoes, the s-gene has about 35 alleles, meaning that there are about 35 variations of one gene.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-01, 07:44:49 AMThe most controversial part is where he suggests culling plants that show 100% resistance to a specific disease. But I understand where he's coming from. It would be difficult to develop the plant's overall background resistance to infection if a few genes are providing so much protection that no selection is taking place on the rest of the genome.

I have come to believe that adaptation agriculture selects for plants with a general resistance to stress, regardless of whether that stress is biological, or related to soil/climate. A plant that thrives in it's ecosystem resists late blight better than a plant that struggles to eke out a meager existence.

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2023-12-02, 05:11:06 AMBy that definition, that would make a single PH gene 'horizontal', since it only gives partial resistance. And yet that contradicts Raoul's definition that it is eternal - PH-1 has already been overcome.

I think Ph-X are vertical, because Ph-1 worked very wel but is now useless. Ph-3 is 100% tolerant on the US studies i've came across. And it seems that Ph-2 has been broken. Some strains have broken Ph-3 too.

QuoteAre you sure the LB resistance of hab LA1777 is not as much as the PH genes? My impression was that it's stronger

Yes LA1777 is stronger, it is each individual resistance genes that are weaker that any Ph-X. LA1777 has at least 5 QTLs, but i've seen no data about each QTL power.

QuoteI've seen tests in papers and by a member of this forum, I think it was Roland? where plants were tested by being infected with LB, and it was really clear that PH-2 + 3 homozygous was more resistant than any other combination of PH-2 + 3 or by themselves. It was also clear that having both was better than 1, and from what I remember that 3 was better than 2, though I don't know if that applies to every strain of LB. Basically the gradient in the combinations was evident. So this seems a really good way of enabling us to stack the genes without the need for markers.

From my understanding on US studies, it is not possible to deduce Ph-X genes from resistant plants, it could be Ph-3/Ph-3 or Ph-3/+ Ph-2/+ or stronger combinations. Could be different in EU depending on strains.

Has anyone read the 2012 edition of Return to Resistance? Molecular evidence may have caused a lot of revision by then. Has anyone done a literature search? Maybe there has been a even more recent thesis or review of the ideas that could help reconcile these concepts. I would expect subtle intergradation between the concepts. Otherwise why would different types of resistance genes be conserved by adaptation over deep time?

It would make sense to me if traditional indigenous gardening and farming of tomatoes maintains a balance with pathogen and crop. Possibly partly because of occasional outcrossing. I think that might be Gary Paul Nabhan's influence though. I would expect to find great variation in resistance in traditional tomatoes from Mexico south to Peru but also may be less than we would think because of the balance achievable through variation.

Uniformity in my view is what makes resistances quickly obsolete. Large fields of the same crop variety.

Quote from: Joseph Lofthouse on 2023-12-02, 07:38:12 AMI have come to believe that adaptation agriculture selects for plants with a general resistance to stress, regardless of whether that stress is biological, or related to soil/climate. A plant that thrives in it's ecosystem resists late blight better than a plant that struggles to eke out a meager existence.

I figured that out a long time ago and see evidence of it all the time. Non-scientific evidence, I have not done trials of one process compared to another or even kept good documentation showing comparisons over time. What I do see and hope to continue seeing is a consistently adequate for our needs harvest, regardless of what stressors are most prevalent that season, and with minimal effort on my part.

I know little about the specific genes involved in much of anything and am not really all that concerned with what diseases might or might not be present. I don't fertilize anything; I don't treat anything and very rarely even water anything. If something fails to produce the adequate for our needs harvest for whatever reason, I drop it. A total failure in one year results in permanent banishment, even if there is a chance, it might thrive the next year, I have no problem with a small harvest due to adversity, but no harvest is a deal breaker. The conversation goes sort of like this. "I know you had a bit of the brown curly leaf disease; the big green worms ate some of your healthier branch tips, then you had touch of the grey fuzzies, and then it didn't rain for five weeks but still, you could have given me a tomato or two, and you didn't. I'm sorry but I'm afraid I have to let you go." 

Good enough is good enough for me and adequate for our needs, is good enough but I want it every year. I'm also of course not displeased when a harvest exceeds that, as is often the case. I wouldn't rule out however that I may set the bar lower than many people.  I'd rather expect less and be happily surprised than stress out over wanting more.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-12-02, 09:17:33 AMIt would make sense to me if traditional indigenous gardening and farming of tomatoes maintained a balance with pathogen and crop

I don't know about the indigenous, but I think that is basically what goes on in my garden and although some varieties like my Mr. Stripy have been growing here for thirty years, that deeper time association with whatever is going on isn't necessary. Utha Heart from Joseph and Hoosier Rose from a commercial source both took right to it while many others did not. I can only guess from that, that there is genetic component. Some tomatoes, no matter where they come from or what genetics they are supposed to have settle in here just fine, even though most don't.  I speculate that there is some magic combination of genes in some tomatoes that works this way but don't expect I'll ever know what that is. And maybe it's not just one specific combination. Maybe there is more than one, maybe a different one would work better somewhere else.





   

"Has anyone read the 2012 edition of Return to Resistance?"

My copy is 3rd edition, 2007. I wouldn't expect huge differences in the 4th edition.

When I toured Julia's garden, there was a tomato plant that had black decaying leaves. We presumed that late blight killed it. I judged it to be an awesome plant, because it produced dozens of lovely ripe fruits, in a cold, damp growing season near the ocean, where tomatoes presumably don't grow.

I don't have a DNA lab to discern what genes the tomato had, or what killed it. It easily met the adequate for our needs test.

Quote from: Joseph Lofthouse on 2023-12-02, 05:37:42 PMI judged it to be an awesome plant, because it produced dozens of lovely ripe fruits

I don't know what else a person could ask for.

I sure wish I had kept up with Captain Crunch. It had awful disease issues, more so than I generally tolerate, but made lots of yummy tomatoes anyway. That was in 2015 and 16 and I didn't really understand and appreciate what I was looking at back then. I may, fingers crossed, still have it archived in the vault.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-01, 07:44:49 AMInstead of looking for specific alleles that given a great deal of protection against a very specific disease organism, the idea of horizontal resistance (it seems to me) is to look for genes that make the plant generally stronger, more resistant to any infection, and better able to survive the impact of any disease.

Quote from: Joseph Lofthouse on 2023-12-02, 07:33:09 AM

QuoteIs there much difference in genes and alleles?

In the case of the self-incompatibility trait in tomatoes, the s-gene has about 35 alleles, meaning that there are about 35 variations of one gene.

Well, in this context of LB, if I am understanding it right, a gene is one position on a chromosome which can be one (or is it the pair?) allele, but we have options for which allele. So the PH genes would be allele options for a specific gene, i.e. that a tomato could be generally very healthy and vigorous, doing well in its environment, like all of my peruvianums for example, or many very healthy domestic tomatoes, or Wildings for example; but, has alleles for that gene which give it no LB resistance.

So, if my understanding of that is correct, then going back to Cathy's point of searching for "genes that make the plant generally stronger", my point is that we do have tomatoes that are very 'strong', whether domestic or wild. But, very weak when it comes to LB. So an example of a 'gene' that could make these tomatoes very 'strong' in the face of LB, is that very gene which the PH alleles are options for. So that was my point when asking "Is there much difference in genes and alleles?"

Wouldn't this be so in general? I mean, unless you are actually adding to the chromosome, adding new genes, like lengthening the chromosome (and from what I understand we can actually rearrange the chromosomes via some interspecial crossing but that may be a different topic), then it would seem to me that looking for strong 'genes' is synonymous with looking for strong 'alleles'. Is it not? And I don't mean to say that this necessarily has to be looking for single alleles. For example, there might be a number of options of alleles for one gene, like with the s-gene, where there might be many options which give no LB resistance, but with several that do. In which case, one could have an (entirely or partially) outcrossing population in which one may have eliminated all non-useful alleles but included a number of useful alleles, for a particular gene, and thus be a well protected population.

I don't know how the resistance works in LA1777. From what I gather it is a number of genes, and I dont really understand what QLT means but is it perhaps that 1 QTL is composed of a number of genes, so it sounds to me like perhaps it involved quite a few different genes in total. Now I don't know if the members of the population have variations of those, all of which are resistant, or whether they are perhaps all homozygous for all of those genes, such that they all have the same type of resistance, unchanging. I could imagine both possibilities.

Quote from: Joseph Lofthouse on 2023-12-02, 07:33:09 AMI would rather gather together 100 alleles that contribute 1% resistance. That explains why I am not working on stacking resistance genes into a single variety.

Isn't that a kind of stacking? Just choosing a larger number of weaker genes to stack, as opposed to a smaller number of stronger genes to stack?

I do also see the potential benefit of having overall resistance caused by the former method. This is also why I intend to do my best at making some populations which do not have the PH genes. Though I will not be able to know what's really going on, my aim would be to allow for the potential coming together or varied forms of resistance in a manner which seems aligned with what you have expressed.

Quote from: Joseph Lofthouse on 2023-12-02, 07:33:09 AMI'm not going to discount his work by approaching it with black/white thinking.

I don't think I would categorise my own position as being founded on black and white thinking. The apparent inconsistencies in his logic do certainly play a role in my not accepting his claims as true, and that might seem black and white. But his total lack of evidence or examples in what I read of him explaining that, were also very significant for me. And I can't call that 'black/white thinking'. I just find it hard to take on faith wonderful sounding things that are not grounded in evidence. (And when put together, numerous logical inconsistencies combined with the absence of evidence, is for me a pretty bad combination). Perhaps he does have evidence, and just did not mention any in that chapter and the rest of what I read. Anyway, I can't accept his logic if it seemed self-contradictory, but I remain open to that which he wrote that seems theoretically plausible at least, but in a skeptical way, waiting for evidence until I would take it on.

It also occurs to me that anyway when it comes to 'horizontal' vs 'vertical', these are after all concepts, attempts at making conceptual classifications and imposing them on the non-conceptual real world. We humans do that, it is a good adaptive function. And in this case the concepts have been constructed for the purpose of prediction and manipulation, such that we can intellectually map breeding phenomena and use them to manipulate the plants to our breeding needs or aims. So I am not too worried about the concepts, so long as my work with the plants I am doing goes ok. And the idea of breeding for LB without the PH genes probably fits with the horizontal conceptual framework, as well as fitting with just a general plan of varied resistance that might be more sustainable in the long run than the specific PH genes. So in the end it might not matter so much which concepts one subscribes to, if in practice the same actions are taken.

Quote from: Nicolas on 2023-12-02, 08:50:32 AMAnd it seems that Ph-2 has been broken. Some strains have broken Ph-3 too.

From the studies I saw, from what I remember it seemed PH-2 is weaker than PH-3 but still useful. I guess it may depend on which strains of LB but I have seen studies where PH-2 did better than no PH; PH-3 did better than PH-2; but PH-2 + PH-3 did better than just PH-2.

I also remember hearing that although PH-1 might be generally considered not useful anymore, that adding that (I guess to other PH combinations) can help too, somewhat. Now I will try to find a paper showing the PH 2 and 3 tests....
Ah ok so I found that PH-1 rerefence while searching. In the PhD dissertation 'Late blight (Phytophthora infestans) on tomato- evaluation of pathogen population structure in Britain and development of resistant tomato cultivars for growing outdoors', Stroud, James, 2015:

QuoteFurthermore, the experiments presented in Chapter 4 provided some evidence of a residual effectiveness of the Ph-1 gene, at least in providing a slight reduction in infection efficiency by some isolates. Given the "synergistic" effect of combining the Ph-2 and Ph-3 genes, it seems that an attempt to combine Ph-1 with other resistance genes (perhaps by crossing an OP cultivar carrying Ph-1, such as New Yorker, to lines with Ph-2 and/or Ph-3) would be instructive, especially if they were tested against a broad range of P

Here are a couple of charts from the LB trial in that. I added in red what PH genes they have:
Screenshot 2023-12-03 at 16.04.10.png

Screenshot 2023-12-03 at 16.05.06.png

There was another study I saw somewhere, plus Roland's ... was it Roland? Somebody here I think... who did a very similar trial, where there were given images of all the young plants, and it was really easy to see the differences in the resistances given by the different combinations of PH-2 and 3. But here anyway is a chart giving written info, which confirms PH-2 + PH-3 combined giving better resistance than alone, and both homozygous better than heterozygous. And this page was updated on 2022, though not sure if the data might actually be from 2014:
https://eorganic.org/node/10822

And ah I found Roland's report, which was in this very thread! This shows to me that PH-2 is still very valuable:

Quote from: Roland on 2023-09-10, 02:30:00 PMThe status was drawn up 5 days after the 2nd infection:
90% affected on leaves and stem: (no resistance genes)
75% affected on leaves and stem: (ph2 homozygous)
75% infected on leaves, stems are free of infection: (ph3 heterozygous)
50% infected on leaves, stems are free of infection: (ph2 and ph3 heterozygous)
<10% affected on leaf: (ph2 and ph3 homozygous)


For pictures check here:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ARvTSK8GhHgzADrKFXqNZcBgvsvvAkFRj32mgbN7HXeFppFRy8QJrggp4WwmS95Kl&id=100024953531011 (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02ARvTSK8GhHgzADrKFXqNZcBgvsvvAkFRj32mgbN7HXeFppFRy8QJrggp4WwmS95Kl&id=100024953531011)

Quote from: Nicolas on 2023-12-02, 08:50:32 AMFrom my understanding on US studies, it is not possible to deduce Ph-X genes from resistant plants, it could be Ph-3/Ph-3 or Ph-3/+ Ph-2/+ or stronger combinations. Could be different in EU depending on strains.

To me, the above trials imply that we can potentially breed and identify PH-2+3 homozygous plants either by selecting them at the end of the season via natural exposure to LB, or perhaps preferably, when young as Roland did, visually. I suppose it might help if we deliberately included some know to be homozygous for both, and some lesser ones, for comparison purposes. And perhaps it might depend on what LB strains we are infecting them with. But anyway this method seems like it could work really quite well. And even if it didn't work perfectly for the first round of selection, perhaps letting some homozygous PH-2 but heterozygous for PH-3 through or vice versa (Roland's results would suggest those are the only ones not homozygous for both that might slip through), perhaps that can be sorted out the next year/s through further selection, which might go differently due to differing LB strains.

Or, this method could be used to do the vast majority of selection and then use marker selection for those remaining, which should massively reduce the cost of marker assisted selection.

Quote from: Nicolas on 2023-12-02, 08:50:32 AMYes LA1777 is stronger, it is each individual resistance genes that are weaker that any Ph-X. LA1777 has at least 5 QTLs, but i've seen no data about each QTL power.

Yeah that seems pretty tricky working with that. Plus some may be associated with negative traits also, apparently.

I just came across this summary of the LB resistance genes which others might find pretty useful, from the abstract of the paper 'Fine Mapping of the Ph-2 Gene Conferring Resistance to Late Blight (Phytophthora infestans) in Tomato' - Xiaona Zhi et al, 2021:

QuoteBreeding new varieties with genetic resistance to P. infestans is the most effective way to minimize late-blight-caused losses. Thus, the effective use of new resistance (R) genes by breeders is essential. The resistance to P. infestans is mediated by R genes and several quantitative trait loci (QTLs). Over several decades, researchers have identified late blight R genes, including Ph-1, Ph-2, Ph-3, Ph-4, and Ph-5, in wild tomato species. The Ph-1 gene, which confers complete resistance to P. infestans race T0, was mapped to the end of chromosome 7 (Bonde and Murphy 1952; Peirce 1971). The Ph-2 gene, which was identified in S. pimpinellifolium 'West Virginia 700' (Gallegly and Marvel 1955), confers partial late blight resistance, which is useful for slowing the spread of the disease (Black et al. 1996a; Goodwin et al. 1995). The Ph-2 gene was mapped to an 8.4-centimorgan (cM) region between markers CP105 and TG233 on chromosome 10 (Moreau et al. 1998). The Ph-3 gene was identified in S. pimpinellifolium 'LA3708' (AVRDC 1994) and is a partially dominant gene located on the long arm of chromosome 9, where it encodes a coiled-coil nucleotide binding site leucine-rich repeat (CC-NBS-LRR) R protein (Black et al. 1996a,b; Chunwongse et al. 2002; Zhang et al. 2013, 2014). The Ph-4 gene was detected in S. habrochaites 'LA1033' and was reported as a potential QTL (AVRDC 1998; Lough 2003). The Ph-5 gene was identified in S. pimpinellifolium accession PI 270443, which is resistant to at least seven late blight pathogen races (Foolad et al. 2006). However, Ph-5 is controlled by two sites, one on chromosome 1 (named Ph-5-1) and one on chromosome 10 (named Ph-5-2) (Merk and Foolad 2012; Merk et al. 2012; Nowicki et al. 2012), which has increased the difficulty of its application. Additionally, some late blight resistance QTLs have been identified in S. habrochaites (Brouwer et al. 2004; Chen et al. 2008; Li et al. 2011), S. cheesmaniae (Lukyanenko 1991), and S. pennellii (Smart et al. 2007). Unfortunately, introgressing these disease resistance QTLs into cultivated tomato plants requires more time, and many of them may be associated with undesirable traits (Brouwer et al. 2004). To date, the QTLs conferring late blight resistance have not been successfully applied to commercial production, and their practical value remains unknown (Foolad et al. 2014).

I was not aware of the part I highlighted. That's especially interesting about cheesmaniae - I made quite a few cheesmaniae crosses, so I will keep an eye out for resistances in their progeny.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-12-02, 09:17:33 AMUniformity in my view is what makes resistances quickly obsolete. Large fields of the same crop variety.

That's what makes me afraid of relying too much on the PH genes - their widespread public use. But on that note, I ponder the significance of small scale diversity vs large scale. By which I mean, might diversity at the individual population level (in one garden) be more significant for a pathogen transmitted from plant to plant over short distances, but relatively less significant for pathogens spread by the wind over long distances (like LB)? By which I mean, perhaps for the latter, the 'population' from the perspective of the pathogen, might be the actual large scale population of tomatoes throughout an entire region.

So if there is not diversity in that overall region, perhaps we are at a lesser advantage than we might be, with our own small scale diverse population?

To give an example - if we have some PH-2 and some PH-3 plants in our own population, but if the pathogen takes advantage of the huge breeding medium of a region's tomatoes, then it may overcome the entire region's PH-2, including our own. In which case our own PH-2 may have been at no advantage to those in homogenous populations. Similarly, if we have all the combinations of PH-2 and PH-3, each individual may fair as well/poorly as all those combinations as they exist in homogenous populations within the region.

This makes me think that having tomatoes, whether diverse or homogenous, that have either 'unpopular' forms of resistance, or that + the PH genes, might do better. Given that unpopular ones, even if grown homogeneously on the small scale, would provide a smaller medium for evolution of the pathogen. And in terms of scale, might be equivalent to individual plants in a varied population for a pathogen with shorter reach. I'm just speculating here but anyway those are my thoughts so far. Either way I prefer (in addition to PH based populations) the idea of a diverse outcrossing or partly outcrossing population with unpopular resistance anyway since I want to breed also for other traits, so I would need to allow that LB resistance to cross enough to get as good as the source, or hopefully better by including various different sources, and maybe be able to continue to adapt as LB itself adapts.

One possible approach to LB breeding would be to breed for speed to production of ripe fruit. If LB hits during a certain portion of the growing season. You might be able to do late blight avoidance just like drought or heat avoidance. Tomatoes that have already produced enough usable fruit before the late blight kills them. Same with other tomato disease. Speed might be an alternative to Resistance.

Julia, for example, might not need resistance at all, if the tomatoes can produce enough tasty fruit in her cool growing conditions, before the late blight hits.

One of my family members described the tomato plants melting with the fall rains in the Seattle area. That shift in weather leads to a huge problem. One approach might be to only grow tomato plants that produce well before that climactic wall comes crashing down.

I have a climactic window for premium fruit in the summer dry season. I can stop watering entirely, and ripen extra tasty crack free tomatoes. Rains and I get bad cracking, spoilage at the crack sites, if the cracks heal nicely they still break open to transport. I also get reduced flavor quality as growing conditions get colder and colder. Problem! So that mid summer fruit is best quality. A lot of the varieties reknowned for best flavor can't produce that flavor under my conditions because they overshoot my best flavor window. It's far more likely for disease to be a problem also after the best flavor window.

Black cherry is a candidate for premium fruit after the flavor window for me. Tastes good cold grown. It might be worth crossing into PHX lines for Julia and my Seattle relatives.

By adding speedy varieties that can out run late blight into the garden mix it would tend to satisfy my concern about uniformity of genetics too.

Weird maybe botanists only thought: why not grow some of the hard to breed with species tomatoes just for their own intrinsic value as cool plants. Then they are present to mess with the pathogens by adding diversity and we just don't have to expect things of them? At least not in the short term- like our personal life times. Also they might feed a more diverse array of solanum pollinating bees. Ooh- I noticed in a South America field study report I shared recently that some of the bee species buzz pollinating wild tomatoes in South America are small species. Our North American bumble bees Bombus are large species.

"My point is that we do have tomatoes that are very 'strong', whether domestic or wild. But, very weak when it comes to LB. So an example of a 'gene' that could make these tomatoes very 'strong' in the face of LB, is that very gene which the PH alleles are options for ."

The problem with this approach is that a single mutation of the disease organism can wipe out the resistance provided by that single gene.

The point of 100 genes each of which adds 1% resistance is that no single mutation, or even several mutations, can knock out all of the resistance and lose the crop in a single generation.

William, that's pretty much what I have done in past years. I grow early varieties that produce plenty of fruit before being killed by disease.

Some years disease affects only a few plants. This year was my worst disease year ever, but since it was a record flood disaster year with FEMA opening up local offices, it was not a normal growing year.

The dense tomato planting I used for trials may also have made disease spread faster.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-03, 11:38:59 AMThe problem with this approach is that a single mutation of the disease organism can wipe out the resistance provided by that single gene.

The point of 100 genes each of which adds 1% resistance is that no single mutation, or even several mutations, can knock out all of the resistance and lose the crop in a single generation.

Yes, in theory that sounds great. My issue with it is that it would take a lot more work to stack 100 genes than to stack 2 or 3. And I just don't know of any edible tomatoes that can put up with the conditions in some regions where LB is particularly serious. So, since I do want to eat tomatoes, and do want to make tomatoes that others can eat also, I am trying to go for the best that is available, but trying multiple methods, so that I hope to have multiple resistant populations, some of which should be likely to outlast the others. I.e., not putting all my eggs in one basket. Also I would expect the non-PH populations to do not as well (at first anyway) and take longer to improve or take relative first place as LB adapts, so I intend to at least have some PH-based populations to give good food in the meantime. Also PH-5 not being in commercial tomatoes yet (so far as I understand), might give PH-5 populations a nice advantage for the moment. So having PH-2+3 homozygous populations (would be lovely to add PH-1 to that too though I'm not planning on that) as well as PH-5 and non-PH populations, seems to me the safest bet.

Plus, even if working with resistance from non-PH based varieties/populations, without genetic testing, we might never know if our resistance is coming from 100 genes, or 7 genes, or 2 genes. So perhaps it is also quite hard to know whether one is using that method of a vast number of resistance genes, even if holding that intention.

Hello all,

i was able to select 4 Mountain Magic F2 Plants with as good Resistance as Primabella. (2022 was no blight)

One had even bigger fruits (5cm) . Blight was really strong this year even one Primabella Plant had little Problems!

Maybe a selection of Mountain Magic would be a good base for crossing Blight Resistant varieties.

Primabella was created through selecting the best plants from Philovita F1 and trialed at different Places over many years under field conditions.
Philovita F1 is nowadays not very Resistant at all.

So Mountain Magic has a much higher future potential than Primabella cause it's allready very resistant atm.

Next year i will trial the F3 Generation of the big ones.


Greetings Thomas

Wow, a lot to go back over in these last several posts. A few things pop out as specifically related to my garden. Concerning the fast maturity versus resistance, I'd like both. The big sweet bicolors that I like are pretty long season, no way to beat any diseases for them, they have to endure the full range.

To the point of diversity within the population, that's where I think mine come up pretty short. I want to start mostly with those I already have and try just crossing them with each other and growing others to evaluate for adding in later. I'm not good at all with hand pollinating and I got distracted by something shiny and fell behind with tomatoes. Here are some old photos of what I have to work with, next year. I have no idea why I have so many with open flowers.

Concerning insect pollination, my bumblebees are not all that fond of tomatoes until very late in the season when a lot of other flowers are done. Several smaller bees and flies like them a lot, all season.   

My pepo winter squash commonly get killed by powdery mildew. I feel fine about that, because it happens very late into cold, damp fall, after they produced an abundant harvest.

The reason that i intensely focus only on 100% self-incompatibility in my tomatoes, is that the plants themselves can do the gene-stacking of all those minor QTLs.

That is some decent exsertion of the style and stigma. Might be worth assaying some of your saved potato leaf seed for existing outcrossing rate.

With the crosses I managed to make and send you with your Utah Heart, Hoosier Rose, and Mr. Stripey. Alot of the usable diversity that might segregate out of those is in the earliness or other categories. In 3/4 of the crosses the resistance to your growing conditions should come from your genetics not any I added! Unless the earliness really helps!

Utah Heart x (MMM x Sweet Cherriette)
This cross is 1/4 the shortest season cherry tomato I know of. 1/8th Joseph's Big Hill. 1/8 my Mission Mountain Sunrise which has the blue from Blue Gold and is really short season likely from Joseph's Brad. So small chance of getting blue skin from the Blue Gold ancestor, Small chance of getting a nice open flower from Big Hill, but quite a good chance of picking up some serious earliness.

Utah Heart x (MMR Dwarf)
Good chance of getting yellow fruit, good chance of getting dwarf. Small chance of open flowers with exserted stigma from the Big Hill ancestor. Though Utah Heart might not be too bad for that from the photo above. Small chance of early.

Mr. Stripey x (MMM x Purple Zebra F1)
Small chance of blue, Small chance of open flower, small chance of earliness, small chance of stripes, small chance of resistance, 50% chance of bicolor on the fathers side (you might see some F1 bicolors from that)

Hoosier Rose x (MMM x LA1375)
Small chance of blue, Small chance of bicolor, Small chance of brown rugose fruit virus tolerance. Small chance of earliness.

I would expect that the portion of seed I retained from those crosses, should eventually adapt to my garden and be less and less likely to thrive in yours- especially on past the F2 in the F3 and subsequent unless I saved a lot of seed I wouldn't normally save to retain as much diversity as possible and refrained from finding my favorites and just saving seed from them.

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2023-12-03, 11:52:44 AMMy issue...is that it would take a lot more work to stack 100 genes than to stack 2 or 3...[I am] trying multiple methods, so that I hope to have multiple resistant populations, some of which should be likely to outlast the others. I.e., not putting all my eggs in one basket.

I agree, but I do not consider utilizing a handful of PH genes to be "multiple methods."

While it's more work to stack the 100 genes up front, given a growing area with a steady background of disease pressure and minimal selection, I wouldn't expect it to be difficult to maintain once created.

Stacking a handful of carefully-selected genes may be less work up front, but you will never truly be caught up, because a single new disease mutation can nullify one or even all of these genes. And you could lose most or all of the crop the first year the new disease mutation reaches your garden. Then it will take multiple years to find a new single-gene with resistance and cross it into your existing varieties.

Joseph is thinking along the same lines I am.  A landrace, rather than a single variety, with the plants doing most of the crossing on their own. Eventually I hope we'll have one or more solid landraces of tomatoes that are largely or entirely SI and also produce 100% edible, tasty fruit. Once we reach that point, maintaining them should be pretty easy.

Tomatoes are one of the hardest food plants on which to practice this method, because they are highly prone to disease AND they are mostly self-pollinated. That doesn't make the method less desirable, just harder to do.

Quote from: Joseph Lofthouse on 2023-12-03, 01:09:27 PMThe reason that i intensely focus only on 100% self-incompatibility in my tomatoes, is that the plants themselves can do the gene-stacking of all those minor QTLs.

I think a 50 percent SI tomato population would also be intensely interesting. I may have a mixed SI and SC system in my garden just by virtue of my interest in the wild SI species, but they and their early generation hybrids are stuck in wild type unpalatable tomato mode in the short term.

Though I think quite a bit of gene stacking could also happen from any segregating population of tomatoes even from hand crosses.

Quote from: ThomatoGarden on 2023-12-03, 12:36:34 PMHello all,

i was able to select 4 Mountain Magic F2 Plants with as good Resistance as Primabella. (2022 was no blight)

One had even bigger fruits (5cm) . Blight was really strong this year even one Primabella Plant had little Problems!

Maybe a selection of Mountain Magic would be a good base for crossing Blight Resistant varieties.

Primabella was created through selecting the best plants from Philovita F1 and trialed at different Places over many years under field conditions.
Philovita F1 is nowadays not very Resistant at all.

So Mountain Magic has a much higher future potential than Primabella cause it's allready very resistant atm.

Next year i will trial the F3 Generation of the big ones.


Greetings Thomas

Primabella is currently the most resistant variety available in Europe. It is an inbred line of Philovita F1 but has been crossed in the field by an insect of an unknown variety.

Philovita F1 is heterozygous for ph-3 and Primabella is homozygous for ph-2 and ph-3.

Mountain Magic F1 comes from a cross between a resistant beef variety (NC 2 CELBR) x a sweet cherry tomato (NC 2 grape). And is heterozygous for ph-2 and ph-3 genes. He is also heterozygous for the rin gene for extra long fruitlive and not ripening fruit. And there is the br gene (brachytic) what means the fruit clusters are closer and need les internodes.

How many F2 plants have you grown?
It is certainly possible that you have found some very resistant selections in F2 that are equivalent to Primabella's resistance.
In many tests, the resistance of Mountain Magic F1 appears to be very high.

Have you also noticed differences in taste in your F2 plants and perhaps you have found the rin gene that do not ripen?
Or did you find the br gene that made the plants more compact and the fruit clusters were every 2 leaves instead of 3 leaves?

ps. you can also find determinate plants in the F2.

I think Mountain Magic have a lot of potential to create nice OP varieties.

Quote from: reed on 2023-12-03, 12:57:49 PMI have no idea why I have so many with open flowers.

Wow, lots of exsertion and openness, they look great!

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-03, 01:20:08 PMI agree, but I do not consider utilizing a handful of PH genes to be "multiple methods."

1) PH-2 + 3 homozygous populations/lines
2) PH-5 populations/lines
3) Interbred largely or wholly outcrossing populations with various resistant sources not from PH genes.

For me, these 3 methods = multiple methods.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-03, 01:20:08 PMWhile it's more work to stack the 100 genes up front, given a growing area with a steady background of disease pressure and minimal selection, I wouldn't expect it to be difficult to maintain once created.

If someone created it and it was delicious and grew here well, I would happily grow it! If I created it, I would probably never know, referring to my point about that above. Either way, I have nothing against the idea in principle - I support it.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-03, 01:20:08 PMStacking a handful of carefully-selected genes may be less work up front, but you will never truly be caught up, because a single new disease mutation can nullify one or even all of these genes.

Judging by the quote I gave above about the PH genes, it seems PH-2 has been identified since at least 1955 and PH-3 since 1994 - not sure how long they have been in use in commercial tomatoes but combined they seem plenty to provide excellent resistance. Would you think that they would not be useful by the time we are able to breed some nice tomatoes with them? And I'm not aware of PH-5 being used yet in commercial tomatoes, so it would surprise me if both of these would no longer be sufficiently advantageous by the end of this decade. But I do not know - do you think so?

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-03, 01:20:08 PMAnd you could lose most or all of the crop the first year the new disease mutation reaches your garden.

That is basically the situation for non-PH tomatoes right now, so far as I understand, in such areas with sufficiently heavy LB - total loss once LB comes.

Quote from: Cathy A on 2023-12-03, 01:20:08 PMThen it will take multiple years to find a new single-gene with resistance and cross it into your existing varieties.

For me, I am not searching for any new single genes. I'm breeding with the known genes because they are the only tomatoes known to work in the conditions I am breeding for, to my knowledge. As for the unidentified forms of resistance, I have no idea how many genes are involved and I am attempting to employ them in mostly or wholly outcrossing populations. And I feel like I don't mind if I loose most of the crop of those, so long as there is enough left to give sufficient diversity, including enough SI alleles in the purely outcrossing populations, for the populations to be sustainable. I would rather expect there to be heavy losses for a while.

And yes, we are on the same page with SI tomatoes!

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-12-03, 01:56:47 PMI think a 50 percent SI tomato population would also be intensely interesting. I may have a mixed SI and SC system in my garden just by virtue of my interest in the wild SI species

I'd be really curious how that works. Especially whether any of the SI can be pollinated by the SC, and vice versa.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-12-03, 01:16:19 PMThat is some decent exsertion of the style and stigma. Might be worth assaying some of your saved potato leaf seed for existing outcrossing rate.

I don't remember what you said about potato leaf. Wasn't it that it's recessive, so any regular leaf that shows up is a cross?

Got a little poll for you all.
In the pictures of the open flowers, what are the chances that they were already self-pollinated when the photo was taken?

I would expect that the SI and SC mix from habrochaites that it mostly has pollination from SI to SC with rare exceptions. The LA2329 accession while I think listed as SI is really mixed itself and at least capable of some selfing. I think all these things are liable to have rare exceptions. Like Andrew's thread from several years ago about how to overcome some of the crossing barriers. There are always exceptions. If we wanted to be extremely accurate we should probably say something like 99.999% obligate outcrossing rather than 100%. Note that those numbers aren't based on research just a wild guess. So I entirely do expect some SC pollination of SI plants especially given your recent observations. However I have noticed another barrier. The hybrids can be quite small initial seedlings.

Quote from: reed on 2023-12-03, 05:38:00 PMGot a little poll for you all.
In the pictures of the open flowers, what are the chances that they were already self-pollinated when the photo was taken?

I guess that might depend on the orientation of the flowers, whether pointing up or down, towards or away from the wind?

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-12-03, 05:39:08 PMI would expect that the SI and SC mix from habrochaites that it mostly has pollination from SI to SC with rare exceptions.

I'd be curious how the SC wouldn't be bred out of a natural population that way, if the [SC x homozygous SI]'s SC pollen could not pollinate the SI members of the population, and if heterozygous SI are SI. Would that not decrease the number of SC plants each generation? Though there might be a part of this story that I'm missing.

Unless perhaps it's not as simple as SC vs SI, rather that perhaps the SI barriers are somewhat broken down in that population?

I agree about exceptions. For my own project, I figure I don't mind if there is sporadic non-SI behaviour so long as they are all homzygous SI and the pollinations occuring from SC or self pollen doesn;t disrupt the sustainability of the population, for example giving only very few seeds and so those fruits can be selected against for seed saving.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-12-03, 05:39:08 PMHowever I have noticed another barrier. The hybrids can be quite small initial seedlings.

My arc crosses did well in F1, and most of the sibling crosses that germinated are so far doing well in the F2. But those crossed to other tomato species and hybrids, the seeds are being tricky. Of those I have tried germinating, some have done well, at germination and now with several leaves; but some not, whether that be not germinating at all, or having issues directly afterwards before making any true leaves. Also the F2 seeds themselves mostly look great, but crossing them with other species or hybrids, the seeds mostly look in some way or another potentially problematic. I don't mind pampering them so long as they go well not too many generations down the line.

In comparison, the chmielewskii crosses crossed to other species and hybrids, seem to be giving fine looking seeds. Not germinating them yet actually because of that reason - am germinating the dodgy looking seeds because I figure they have a higher chance at germinating while fresh. But have started just a few chm cross x other hybrid out of curiosity, and one is just germinating now, looks good so far but early days yet.

The arc crosses x peruvianum seeds look very poor, but several have germinated now and I am in full pampering mode for them. I have some confidence that they will do well in some future generations but that is a purely faith based position of joyful naïvety and optimism :)

I have noticed some hybrids, I forget now which species - maybe a hab cross - have given the first leaves before a root, which seems a bit odd and impractical! I'm hoping this will remedy in the F2.

On the topic of small seedlings, eating one tasty cheesmaniae, which I expect is in fact a hybrid with pimp, I found the small seed size rather pleasant and interesting in the eating experience. And wondered, perhaps it could be nice to breed a small seeded line. It would have the disadvantage of giving a slow starting small initial seedling, but I wonder, might be worth it for the pleasant novelty of that different texture when eaten. I think the main reason why I have never been into cherry tomatoes is because of the high ration of seeds and skin to the part I actually want to enjoy. This could address that somewhat perhaps.

Quote from: reed on 2023-12-03, 05:34:27 PMI don't remember what you said about potato leaf. Wasn't it that it's recessive, so any regular leaf that shows up is a cross?

Yes, potato leaf is recessive, so any regular leaf that shows up in your potato leaf seed is a cross!

Another similar recessive is the rugose dwarf trait or traits that the dwarf tomato project used. They also can be selected as young seedlings in the F2, but any non-dwarf seedling from a dwarf mother is also a cross. I've hypothesized the ultimate mother would be potato leaf, dwarf, and exserted.

To address your poll Reed: Alot depends on the actual rate of outcrossing. In 2022 I set up crossing blocks with my potato leaf mother lines Mission Mountain Sunrise and Mission Mountain Morning. Then I planted a bunch of those potato leaf seeds. Mostly no crosses. The year before I got plenty of crosses. One of the big differences was in 2021 I had essentially free choice fathers- lots of available fathers. One exception in 2022 was the MMM F2 with the best exsertion in an extremely densely planted row of lots and lots of varieties. Plenty of crosses from that one plant- more than one cross I reckon based on the regular leaf seedlings I found. So it is not enough to have a good mother- you have to have a good father too, one that produces plentiful pollen. In some cases I think the crossing blocks when the other way than I intended. Judging from the degree of exsertion on those flowers in your pictures, I would still expect pretty rare cross seedlings. Doesn't take much to plant 1000 potato leaf seeds and see if any come out regular leaf though. Then transplant that one regular leaf seedling and baby it a little because it will produce plentiful F2 seed! Also you can transfer pollen to stigmas like that without emasculation. Emasculation sometimes leads to the flower just drying up on me. So if you have a potato leaf tell- you can grab pollen with a pollen spoon and pollinator tool and just dip all those exserted stigmas in them, especially when the flower is young- it won't even have released its own pollen yet, and you'll give that foreign pollen a head start. Tie a little paper price tag too it and you won't forget which one it was either.

Justin I am inspired by your successes with Solanum arcanum to grow it again. Gotta add it to my 2024 list- once I get that list started.

In helianthus tuberosus, the self-incompatibility rate is known.

QuoteWith a self-incompatibility rate of 99.2% I'd expect about 1 seed per 3 flower heads. If there are around 200 flower heads per plant I'd expect a single self-incompatible plant to produce about 70 seeds. Sure it'd be a pain to thresh a gallon of seed heads for a quarter teaspoon of seeds. It's not like my labor has a price attached.

I think the natural crossing in my tomatoes is probably higher than what might be considered normal. Problem is I grow very small populations; I rarely plant more than twenty or so plants and nearly all of the fruit is eaten fresh or canned and I haven't really tired very hard to purposely discover the likely crosses, yet.

Assuming though that the flowers are not already completely self-pollinated before they even open it will be easy to just pick out a few to apply other pollen and then keep track of them. Then the next year plant ALL of the seeds from those fruits. I always keep lots of back up seed so no worries about messing up my favorites.

I wish I had more potato leaf varieties. Right now, the only one is the Hoosier Rose and it isn't the one I most want crosses from. But on that point, if potato leaf is recessive then pretty much any normal leaf could be carrying it. So, If I use Hoosier Rose as the pollen parent, and Mr. Stripy as the mother, there is some chance that some offspring will be potato leaf?

And I can use any pollen on the Hoosier Rose and look for normal leaf in the offspring. Except if the pollen parent happened to not be homozygous for normal leaf, then potato leaf could still show up too? I have a lot of back up seed, so next year I could plant a few hundred Hoosier Rose and see if I may already have some crosses.

Are there any other real obvious traits in tomatoes that signal a cross has occurred?   

Mr. Stripey shouldn't throw any potato leaf in the F1 but 25% would show in the F2. Non-zero though but extremely unlikely. If you had potato leaf in recession on your strain of Mr. Stripey you would probably have seen it by now as it would segregate our at 25%.

Obvious traits to me are any segregation. Sometimes this would show in the F2. Anything that is different from the mother could be a sign of a cross. Different fruit size, leaves different, different colors, and anything else different. That does get tricky in similar varieties but if you are familiar with them you might notice.

Quote from: Roland on 2023-12-03, 02:50:53 PMPrimabella is currently the most resistant variety available in Europe. It is an inbred line of Philovita F1 but has been crossed in the field by an insect of an unknown variety.

Philovita F1 is heterozygous for ph-3 and Primabella is homozygous for ph-2 and ph-3.

Mountain Magic F1 comes from a cross between a resistant beef variety (NC 2 CELBR) x a sweet cherry tomato (NC 2 grape). And is heterozygous for ph-2 and ph-3 genes. He is also heterozygous for the rin gene for extra long fruitlive and not ripening fruit. And there is the br gene (brachytic) what means the fruit clusters are closer and need les internodes.

How many F2 plants have you grown?
It is certainly possible that you have found some very resistant selections in F2 that are equivalent to Primabella's resistance.
In many tests, the resistance of Mountain Magic F1 appears to be very high.

Have you also noticed differences in taste in your F2 plants and perhaps you have found the rin gene that do not ripen?
Or did you find the br gene that made the plants more compact and the fruit clusters were every 2 leaves instead of 3 leaves?

ps. you can also find determinate plants in the F2.

I think Mountain Magic have a lot of potential to create nice OP varieties.

Hello Roland,

i grew only 16 Plants and was lucky to get some good ones. One the other Hand no luck with Crimson Crush.

dont know if ther are some other genes involved,i only selected for health and fruit quality.
Have to look for the br gene next year sounds interesting.

The plants were big and healthy. The taste was the same as the original. no cracking.
Sunviva for example was healthy but all fruits cracked (too much rain here).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_fAB7S3rX4 the fist plant in front of the green pole (2 stems)
is the MM F2 with bigger fruits

Does someone have expierience with Honey Moon F1 ?

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2023-12-04, 06:40:57 AMIf you had potato leaf in recession on your strain of Mr. Stripey you would probably have seen it by now as it would segregate our at 25%.

Ah, so none of my other NL varieties are likely to be carrying recessive PL because it would show up once in a while anyway. I'm not a 100% sure they haven't from time to time over the years, but I never used to pay good attention and probably would have just thought I got my seeds mixed up.

Hoosier Rose did segregate and the strain I ended up keeping is potato leaf and now I understand that it stays that way, because it's recessive. Hoosier Rose came from a commercial variety called Red Rose which I thought was an F1. But looking it up now it does not call it and F1, just that it came from a cross between Brandywine and Rutgers. Regardless the seeds I saved the first year I grew it segregated into NL and PL varieties.

OH! I just thought, that explains why it still has slight variations, especially in the fruits. Some plants have more deeper lobes on top, some have more green shoulders. And since I have never really chosen just one to type to favor {add} other than going on with the PL, it just stays that way. It' might still be segregating too, and maybe even recrossing, I'd guess I'd have to deliberately work at if I wanted it completely stable, but I don't.

I think the volunteers in these same pictures that I posted before came from it. And one from the purchased seeds, which like I said I thought was an F1 at the time.

Nicolas reported in another thread that "Tim's taste of paradise" had good resistance in France.

Tomatenflüsterer reported that "Black Centiflor" was the last Tomato in his Garden until snow.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWj2yM3Q3rY the ones on the table.

Has anyone else experience with this varieties?

Quote from: ThomatoGarden on 2023-12-07, 02:21:02 AMNicolas reported in another thread that "Tim's taste of paradise" had good resistance in France.

Tomatenflüsterer reported that "Black Centiflor" was the last Tomato in his Garden until snow.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWj2yM3Q3rY the ones on the table.

Has anyone else experience with this varieties?

Interesting! this summer of 2023 I grew and made a couple of crosses with Fruity which is what "Tim's Taste of Paradise" was selected from, Tim Peter's work. I had to Google Black Centiflor but it looks to me from what I read that it appeared amongst some Red Centiflor one of Alan Kapuler's tomatoes. It looks like a cross with one of the blue skinned tomatoes to me. Alan's Centiflor tomatoes are amongst his occasionally outcrossing tomatoes, so a new variety springing up from that makes sense.

I am currently trying to reread Carol Deppe's "Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties" and just finished chapter five though it is the second edition and I originally read the first edition though have had and read portions of the second which I first got a decade ago. I have really been enjoying reading again about Tim Peters and Alan Kapuler's work. It's amazing to me that they were doing the same work with tomatoes we are attempting to expand on now when Carol's first books were written. Carol writes about how they both would dehybridize hybrids, but also make new crosses with tomatoes including wild tomato species. It doesn't surprise me that some disease resistance would show up in their work or its descendants as their work likely contains an interesting amalgam of genes and at least in Alan's case the ability to occasionally produce a spontaneous cross.

I had long tress, blue skinned, cherry tomatoes show up in three places direct seeded in 2023- my The One direct seeding isolation garden, one of my two Mission Mountain and The One reseedings of the 2022 crossing block, and my direct seeding of Lofthouse promiscuous. This was a bit unexpected of a result, they don't match anything I have a memory of. I did some recombining of The One seed after growing them out in numerous gardens in 2022. In 2022 I did grow out some blue skinned descendants of Alan Kapuler's Golden Tressette that just showed up amongst the original seed from him and Yellow Centiflor Hypertress Cherry in 2022 and there was one patch of The One in that same garden.

Quote from: ThomatoGarden on 2023-12-04, 06:43:53 AMHello Roland,

i grew only 16 Plants and was lucky to get some good ones. One the other Hand no luck with Crimson Crush.

dont know if ther are some other genes involved,i only selected for health and fruit quality.
Have to look for the br gene next year sounds interesting.

The plants were big and healthy. The taste was the same as the original. no cracking.
Sunviva for example was healthy but all fruits cracked (too much rain here).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_fAB7S3rX4 the fist plant in front of the green pole (2 stems)
is the MM F2 with bigger fruits

Does someone have expierience with Honey Moon F1 ?

On the subject of Mountain Magic, I received some seeds from a friend in Ontario.  The area was devastated with LB this season, and the only one who had a crop was this farmer with Mountain Magic, which she bought and saved seeds.  She described the tomatoes as "huge" ie bigger than cherry size - so it may be this is already an F2 or F3 with significant resistance to the LB that affected Ontario this year.
I also got some seeds of the original F1, along with Mountain Gem and Plum Regal, in a package deal from Veseys.
I'm actually looking for Alternaria alternata/stem canker resistance which is part of the package, but it would be an asset to conserve LB resistance when working with these lines.  We don't commonly have late blight on tomatoes, but I have seen it on potatoes years ago, and also on potatoes of commerce.  So if there's blight in potato growing areas it is also finding its way here and could turn up any time.

Has anyone tried Austrian Mountain Cherry? I've heard it has great blight resistance. Here's a link to it, terribly long URL!:
https://tatgut.de/public/product-view/eyJpdiI6IjlkbjZJWENxT3MrWHdzRVRpZEZ5dGc9PSIsInZhbHVlIjoiWmxEL0s2Wm14SWhwKzlRQ3VRSXVyZz09IiwibWFjIjoiM2RlMzgwMjdhNTZkMzAyYjgyZjEyNjcyZTdhNTMyYzZjOTI4NTg2MWRhZDM2NDU1ZTkzZTA0ZjRkYjA3YWQyYSJ9

Using automatoed translatoin it says:

QuoteVariety discovery from Austria, where this red cocktail tomato has been grown at an altitude of 1,650 m since 1920.

The AMC tomato, short for Austrian mountain cherry, tastes sweet and tomatoey. The plants have strong foliage and grow to around 1.80 m high. They can also be pulled with two drives. It's nice that this variety has been preserved thanks to Lukas Wallmann, who is also committed to its further development (open breeding).

No mention of late blight but this is what I hear from someone who is doing late blight breeding, so I am curious if anyone with late blight pressure has tried it here, or heard about it.

I grow Austrian Mountain Cherry (AMC) in 2023 near Primabella.

The resistance was just as strong as Primabella's. (so very good)
The color of the leaves is dark green like Primabella and the fruit size is approximately the same as Primabella.
I wonder if this isn't the same breed?

Wow that's really interesting, thanks! I read that Primabella was bred in 2017? And that if it's true that AMC has been around at least since 1920, it must be different right?

Do you know if AMC has been tested for PH genes? I would assume that if it really is such an old tomato, then it has a good chance of not having the PH genes, in which case it could be extremely useful. I really value PH-2 and PH-3, but I think it could be very useful to additionally work on lines that exclude those genes, for when LB strains overcome them.

What i understooth is that Lukas' family has been successfully growing tomatoes outdoors in the wet Austrian climate since 1920.
Lukas found a paper bag of tomato seeds in a drawer of his deceased aunt with the label 2001. These tomatoes turned out to be very resistant and he named them AMC (Austrian Mountain Cherry).

Primabella was bred by Dr. Bernd Horneburg by inbreeding the Philovita F1 variety (heterozygous ph3). Cross-pollination most likely took place in the field with a red unknown tomato (Source Dr. Bernd Horneburg) from which Primabella emerged.

As far as I know, Primabella is the most resistant variety to late blight.

Primabella was introduced in 2013.

So, since from the history it seems they are not the same breed, are you thinking that Primabella might be a cross of Philovita and AMC? And if Philovita has only PH-3, but Primabella PH-2+3, then if that really is the origin, AMC would have PH-2? (With also presumably some additional resistance).

It would be great is AMC were tested. If it has no PH-2 nor PH-3, it would seem especially valuable. But even if it has only 1 PH gene, performing as well as the best PH-2+3 resistance would indicate some very strong non-PH resistance.

The Resi variety is widely used by Dr. Bernd Horneburg because of its good field resistance. This would be ph2 homozygous.
Resi comes from a hobby gardener who did not know the name of the variety (like AMC), which is why this variety was named Resi.

I already have Resi seeds, but I have not grown or tested this variety.

Resibella and Rondobella come from the crossing Phantasia F1 x Resi. And are ph2+ph3 homozygous.
Resibella and Rondobella show good resistance here.

In case anyone did not see this one:
Exploration of wild relatives of tomato for enhanced stress tolerance - Junming Li - 2010
https://edepot.wur.nl/50984

They test various introgressions lines from habrochaites LA1777

I grew Resibella once and was underwhelmed by its flavour. It also sprouted a forest of shoots along the main leaf ribs!

Resi and Resibella have some Resistance to LB but they are much more
 subsceptible to cracking than Primabella or MM.

Late blight tomatoes with Ph-2, Ph-3 and Ph-5 combined, have been made. Lecture here which briefly mentions this work, College Connections EP06 23: From Breeding to Treating, Disease Controls for Tomatoes:
https://youtu.be/U-kp2_6Grn0?si=Xjkyr45G-UFN860w

Description:

QuoteTomatoes are the most popular vegetable in Pennsylvania, the U.S., and the world. But plant diseases can take your crop before you do. Dean Rick Roush is joined by Majid Foolad, professor of plant genetics; Beth Gugino, assistant dean for graduate education; and Kevin Hockett, assistant professor of microbial ecology, to discuss conventional and modern breeding techniques, microbial disease management, and applied research in the field to keep your tomatoes healthy and delicious.

So ph5-2 and ph2 are not a different allel on the same gene?

10:16 minutes in. Cheerleading the shift to GMO tomatoes. I disagree of course. Why with the rich genetic resources in tomato wild relatives would we ever create GMO's? We certainly don't need to. Rationale appears to be corporate profits since it makes breeding easier and cheaper.

Quote from: Roland on 2024-01-28, 11:49:56 AMSo ph5-2 and ph2 are not a different allel on the same gene?

I didn't understand the graphic on that one. So I did not understand if it was or not. Did anyone get which it was?

https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/coming-garden-near-you-award-winning-penn-state-bred-tomato-variety/

More background on Valentine F1 and hints about what else may be coming or already available from Penn State collaborations.

https://www.johnnyseeds.com/vegetables/tomatoes/grape-tomatoes/valentine-organic-f1-tomato-seed-3371G.html

"This vivid red, high-yielding, and early blight-resistant tomato is the first commercial variety developed with Penn State's patented high-lycopene breeding lines. Excellent color contrast when mixed with Nova or Golden Sweet, Valentine adds diversity to a small tomato mix. Avg. fruit weight 12–14 gm. Long shelf life. AAS winner. US Patent #8,524,992. Indeterminate. NOTE: For best flavor, harvest when fruits are deep red. USDA Certified Organic." - Johnny's description.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US8524992B2/en

"2029-03-17
Anticipated expiration" - above patent page. It would be difficult to develop a stable high lycopene tomato from Valentine F1 before March 17 2029. It could be done with speed breeding but releasing it before this date would violate this patent. Still since this patent expires so soon, this is a trait that could be used for breeding right?!

https://etda.libraries.psu.edu/files/final_submissions/20711

"Ph-3 is the most
effective resistance gene against LB, and it is currently present in several commercial varieties.
Further, resistance to LB is more effective when Ph-3 is combined with Ph-2. A relatively new
LB resistance gene, Ph-5, has been discovered in the tomato breeding program at Penn State, but
has yet to be commercialized in any varieties. Ph-5 was determined to confer as much LB
resistance as Ph-2/Ph-3 combined. At Penn State, many processing and FM tomato lines have
been developed with LB resistance, and many experimental hybrids containing Ph-5, Ph-5/Ph-2,
Ph-5/Ph-3, and Ph-5/Ph-3/Ph-2 have been developed. " - Jonathan Thomas Bonfiglio thesis above link

"In 2013, the Penn State tomato breeding program produced and evaluated more than 300
large type FM hybrids. Hybrids were developed from high-lycopene lines combined with lines
containing early blight (EB) resistance. Beginning in 2017, newly developed Ph-5 lines were
used in crosses for experimental hybrids containing high-lycopene, EB resistance, and LB
resistance with one, few, or several LB resistance genes. Several hybrids evaluated in this thesis
project are more recently produced in 2018 along with nine other elite 2016 experimental hybrids. " - Jonathan Thomas Bonfiglio thesis above link

Seems from this that it's all hybrids being developed, so hard to say if the PH5 traits can be combined in a homozygous way or not. Sounds like it has a high potential to be offered with this patented high-lycopene trait.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-29, 04:31:46 AMhttps://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/coming-garden-near-you-award-winning-penn-state-bred-tomato-variety/ (https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/coming-garden-near-you-award-winning-penn-state-bred-tomato-variety/)

Wow this part sounds really exciting, and really sad!

QuoteTo find tomatoes with desirable characteristics, Foolad tapped gene banks at the U.S. Department of Agriculture and other research organizations for germplasm from wild varieties, then crossed them with cultivated varieties in an effort to incorporate those traits into new inbred lines and hybrids.

Foolad found one "accession," or genetic line, that had four to five times more lycopene — a powerful antioxidant that gives tomatoes their deep-red color — than cultivated varieties.

"That accession also showed some disease-resistance traits, so I started to focus heavily on that one," he said. "We identified genes that controlled high fruit lycopene content, and we were able to characterize and patent that trait."

Doesn't it sound a bit insane to find a trait, especially in a public gene bank, and then patent it? And, isn't that kind of contrary to the whole ethos of universities? Or like, is this a privately funded university? (Which would still sound immoral to me anyway- in my mind universities should be for the benefit society, not capitalism, though maybe I should not be surprised with all the publicly funded medical research in universities that end up with privatised profits via patents).

Or am I being unfair? I just now read actually on Johnny's Seeds:

QuoteFive percent of the royalties on sales of Valentine will support the public breeding program run by Dr. Foolad at Penn State University.

Maybe that's fair enough. What do you all think about that? I tend to be anti-patent but I guess it it's only a small cut and it goes straight back into the breeding program, that sounds maybe fair. No, actually on reconsideration, that to me sounds very fair in terms of using their material, but not in terms of owning an actual trait that exists in nature. I can't think of a way that could be moral.

Well anyway, on that topic, are there varieties or good accessions out there aside from Valentine F1 with such significant lycopene increase? And, would there be any particular issue of us breeding with them? (I guess not outside of the US at least). And, since "Valentine can have have twice the lycopene content of other grape tomatoes", I wonder if that is because it's heterozygous for that trait to try to stop people getting it? Or, if the decrease (from 4~5x) is associated with size increase, if it was a pimp or cerasiforme they originally got the gene from?

I'm also curious - I've noticed that crossing red lycopersicum with galagense give vibrant deep orange in the F1. I'm hoping to get nice such colour in the F2 also -perhaps it is more of a health benefit than the minimal amount of anthocyanin in the thin skin of black tomatoes? I don't understand how that works exactly, but I heard "The wild type allele B from wild species such as S. pennellii, S. cheesmaniae (and the sibling species S. galapagense) and S. habrochaites converts most fruit lycopene into beta-carotene." So, if the parent were one such tomato with huge lycopene increase, will that mean some of the F2 might therefore give similar beta-carotene increase compared to if the parent were a regular red lycopersicum?

I happened to take this photo yesterday, sorry for the one wrinkled tomato that's a bit old!
fruit colours.jpg
Left 2, lycopersicum; middle 4, galapagense cross; next 3, cheesmaniae cross; far right 2, chmielewskii cross. All interspecific crosses are 50% red lycopersicum. And, the galapagense crosses might appear slightly more red in this photo than in reality since my lights were turned down low to save my eyes while working, which makes them a bit more red than usual.

When I took plant genetics at Oregon State University in 2012 there was a lot of talk about these questions. The professor asked. Philosophically this led me here to try to breed more open-source varieties.

US universities are highly privatized public universities. They cobble together funding from a variety of sources. It isn't fair. I would like to see public university plant breeding well-funded and unpatented. That is not the reality though that universities are currently operating in. Programs are being moth balled as breeders retire, and university breeders work is being commercialized in many ways including this one with the patent.

On the plus side I think this particular patent is a short term one judging by the expiration date.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-29, 05:37:00 AMWhen I took plant genetics at Oregon State University in 2012 there was a lot of talk about these questions. The professor a barley breeder, asked what we thought about how university breeders should be compensated. I remember responding that I thought they should be funded well and paid well but that the varieties should not be constrained with patents etc. Philosophically this led me here to try to breed more open-source varieties.

US universities are highly privatized public universities. They cobble together funding from a variety of sources. It isn't fair. I would like to see public university plant breeding well-funded and unpatented. That is not the reality though that universities are currently operating in. Programs are being moth balled as breeders retire, and university breeders work is being commercialized in many ways including this one with the patent.

On the flip side huge multinational corporations now may employ perhaps even most plant breeders. So the university breeders are very much an exception now.

On the plus side I think this particular patent is a short term one judging by the expiration date.

Sorry William I clicked the link and replied in haste before seeing what you wrote about the patent!

Regarding:

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-29, 04:31:46 AM"Ph-3 is the most
effective resistance gene against LB

I wonder if that is true. Like, whether it beats Ph-5 or not, or whether it's just the combined 5.1 + 5.2 only that beats Ph-3. Also, the tomatoes in the Mexican studies beat LA2533, which is I think the source of Ph-3, and itself has greater resistance than Ph-3 alone since it also has additional resistance. I don't know if these superior ones have that from just 1 gene, or more, so they might not count as having a more resistant single gene than Ph-3 though.

Those accessions are V115, 319, and 327. Details are in Identification of sources of resistance in tomato to Phytophthora infestans at Mexico - 2022 - ARELLANO-RODRÍGUEZ, et al. - ECORFAN_Journal_Ecuador_V9_N17 - 2022

I have been trying to track those down, or the lines they made from them, which also seem to beat LA2533 if I remember correctly. If anyone has any insight into this, I would really love to know. Perhaps they are kept at that one Mexican university? I did write to the author whose contact details were given but have not heard back.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-29, 04:31:46 AMBeginning in 2017, newly developed Ph-5 lines were
used in crosses for experimental hybrids containing high-lycopene, EB resistance, and LB
resistance with one, few, or several LB resistance genes. Several hybrids evaluated in this thesis
project are more recently produced in 2018 along with nine other elite 2016 experimental hybrids.

That sounds great! It was also a long time ago already. Do you think there is any hope that they would provide us with any such material to cross with? It would seem a great value to society if they would. It would seem a waste not to, in my view. Especially since many of them are probably very well suited to our crossing needs while they will perhaps be taking lots of time to breed for other needs, for commercial purposes.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-29, 05:37:00 AMWhen I took plant genetics at Oregon State University in 2012 there was a lot of talk about these questions. The professor asked. Philosophically this led me here to try to breed more open-source varieties.

Awesome.

I think from the materials we found that they are working on commercialization of those crosses. Also, early on when Carol Deppe was posting- Oregon State also was working on a PH-5 tomato. It is strange that none are available yet, but as the professor was explaining in the video- it takes a long time. Longer than expected apparently!

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2024-01-29, 05:16:46 AMFoolad found one "accession," or genetic line, that had four to five times more lycopene — a powerful antioxidant that gives tomatoes their deep-red color — than cultivated varieties.

In the patent it's actually more:

QuoteIn search of genetic sources of high fruit lycopene content in tomato, we acquired seeds of, and grew and evaluated under field conditions, >300 wild tomato accessions. This experiment led to the identification and selection of one accession of wild species Solanum pimpinellifolium with exceptionally high fruit lycopene content.

The lycopene concentration of this accession is as high as 390 µg/g fresh tomato tissue, approximately 10-fold that of the commercial cultivars of tomato (~30-60 g/g fresh fruit tissue). The Solanum pimpinellifolium selection which was discovered to have exceptionally high fruit lycopene content is designated as LA2093.

The thesis expresses that as:

QuoteFor example, in a screening of ~300 accessions of the wild tomato species S. pimpinellifolium, one accession (LA2093) was identified for having seven-fold higher fruit lycopene content than commercial cultivars (Hyman et al., 2004).

Also unless I am misunderstanding, the highest lycopene content they got to in their lines from that thesis was:

QuoteThe lycopene estimates for transformed (a*/b*) 2.5 whole fruit colorimetric data were more within the range of normal values expected for large type, fresh market tomatoes, and there were significant differences among varieties. G49 had the highest lycopene estimate with 59.44 ug/g, and was significantly greater than G4, G9, G73, G81, G40, RD, MF, and MM. G37 (57.37 ug/g) was significantly different from G81 and RD. RD had the lowest lycopene estimate with 40.87 ug/g.

Anyway it sounds like it might be useful to breed directly with LA2093?

The patent continued:

QuoteThe second approach involved backcrossing the selected F plants, which contained highest fruit lycopene content, with different Solanum lycopersicum genotypes for several generations alternated and followed by several gen erations of self-crossing and intensive selection. This approach, which took about 10 years, resulted in the devel opment of different types of fresh-market (e.g. grape, plum and medium/large round fruit) and processing tomato lines with high fruit lycopene contents (see below for details). The concentration of fruit lycopene in these new lines ranges from 100 to 200 µ/g fresh fruit tissue, much higher than what can be found in current commercial breeding lines and cultivars.

Sounds like it's 2 or more genes involved:

QuoteThe mapping strategies resulted in the identification and mapping of several QTLS for high fruit lycopene contents on different chromosomes of the Solanum pimpinellifolium accession LA2093, including two consistent and large-effect QTLS on chromosomes 7 and 12. It is the understanding of the inventor that these two QTLS from Solanum pimpinellifolium acces sion LA2093 have major effect on tomato fruit lycopene content and are essential for the development of high fruit lycopene tomatoes, as described in this invention.

This is a strange statement in the paper, especially since we know of many cases of lycopersicum crossed with pimp, which I assume is accessions collected from the wild in the Americas, no? I.e. many of those in the 'cerasiforme' category, as identified in various papers.

QuoteIt is important to note that Solanum lycopersicum is cleistogamous. Therefore, it is very unlikely in the wild that cross pollination between Solanum pimpinellifolium and Solanum lycopersicum would occur without human technical intervention. It is also unlikely that the identification, selection and backcrossing for the genes (QTLS) for high fruit lycopene content would occur naturally.

Here a presentation about:
Early blight
Late blight ph5 gene
High Lycopene

https://tgc.ifas.ufl.edu/2009/Foolad%20TBRT-2009.pdf

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2024-01-29, 08:01:58 AMThis is a strange statement in the paper, especially since we know of many cases of lycopersicum crossed with pimp, which I assume is accessions collected from the wild in the Americas, no? I.e. many of those in the 'cerasiforme' category, as identified in various papers.

I would say that is a pretty mainstream statement. We with our deliberately exserted style strains and even our ideas about obligate outcrossing tomatoes, we are the counterculture. Doesn't mean we are wrong, because it's clearly a group capable of varied crossing behaviors. However most people, especially when simplified, would think of tomato as obligate selfing with very low rates of outcrossing.

Also obtaining unlikely outcomes is totally what marker assisted selection is all about. This professor though, he is a step beyond that, he is finding the genes and the markers and then using marker assisted selection. So any of us could use MAS for markers for known traits. He is developing those markers. He is also identifying useful traits in specific wild accessions and then finding the markers for them. We are just benefiting from his work. Even if we start paying for genotyping we are still reliant on this prior work.

Quote from: Roland on 2024-01-29, 03:03:14 PMhttps://tgc.ifas.ufl.edu/2009/Foolad%20TBRT-2009.pdf (https://tgc.ifas.ufl.edu/2009/Foolad%20TBRT-2009.pdf)

Wow, seems they were expecting to make the Ph-5 cherry and grape tomatoes available in the fall of that year, 2009! And large ones in 2010~2012. I wonder why they didn't.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-01-29, 04:58:27 PMI would say that is a pretty mainstream statement. We with our deliberately exserted style strains and even our ideas about obligate outcrossing tomatoes, we are the counterculture. Doesn't mean we are wrong, because it's clearly a group capable of varied crossing behaviors. However most people, especially when simplified, would think of tomato as obligate selfing with very low rates of outcrossing.

But the cross could go the other way more easily. No?

And yes, aside from the patenting and long waits, the work is awesome, it's great people are making ways to make use of the genetic diversity for sure. And he seemed like a nice man in the video, it's nice to watch people share about their research.

I noticed that 2009 date too. Why didn't they release the varieties they developed yet? So curious.

Yes, our exserted tomatoes could easily receive pollen from patented or even GMO tomatoes if they were grown close together.

What I meant was, the patent stated:

Quoteit is very unlikely in the wild that cross pollination between Solanum pimpinellifolium and Solanum lycopersicum would occur without human technical intervention.

I guess it's all relative. But we do know this happens.

Not exactly the wild but that cross happened in my garden, all by itself.

It is kind of like Alan Kapuler said in his article about the tomatoes that occasionally outcross. He didn't have any natural crosses for a very long time. Until he hybridized with wild species and then subsequently had them. We know that tomatoes occasionally outcross. That the style length can range from so short that the stigma is deeply inserted, can be positioned right at the opening of the pollen cone, or can be exserted. We know even from the seed saving literature that tomatoes with exserted styles need to be isolated much further. It is also very clear that TGRC has a clear understanding of the phenomenon of exsertion and there are notes about it on individual accessions.

Most folks though are sitting where Alan was prior to discovering/breeding his occasionally outcrossing tomatoes. Growing and seed saving tomatoes for years without detecting any outcrosses. Many researchers as Carol Deppe mentions in her first book in regard to legumes have very low natural outcrossing rates in their research fields because they are so devoid of pollinators.

Even my deliberate exserted potato leaf tomatoes- I grow them mixed with regular leaf, and then grow out the seed from potato leaf mothers. Sometimes it works great and I find lots of regular leaf crosses but still maybe a few percent, and sometimes I get back a whole tray full of potato leaf seedlings.

Because most of my tomatoes have quite open flowers and we have several small bees and flies that visit the flowers, I think crossing probably happens fairly often. I don't find them; I think mostly because I grow such a small number of plants each year and because I haven't really tried to find them. That's changing this year, for example instead of starting ten seeds of my potato leaf Hoosier Rose, I'm going to start a hundred. I figure that should be enough to find some if they exist.

It was just dumb luck that I found my crossed pimps. Pimps are basically weeds in my garden and most are treated that way. As I recall it was sort of late in the season and I was cleaning off a bed to plant a fall crop of something when I noticed the plant pimp looking plant with grape sized fruit. My regular pimps have fruit not much bigger than peas. I assumed that pimp was the original mother side of the cross, but I don't know. After thinking on it, it might have been the other way around because the pimp flowers look to be closed up tight. Seems more likely a little pollen got out than in. 

Quote from: Justin Jardinier on 2024-01-29, 06:13:30 PMWow, seems they were expecting to make the Ph-5 cherry and grape tomatoes available in the fall of that year, 2009! And large ones in 2010~2012. I wonder why they didn't.

Yes, it is very strange that they were ready to release the first varieties in 2009 and now in 2024 they are still not available? Also strange that they have only released 1 variety with high licopene?

Yeah, wonder what keeps pushing their projected release dates back?

I wonder if their investors might have been waiting for Ph-2 + Ph3 to loose resistance?

Quote from: Diane Whitehead on 2019-02-28, 07:12:37 PMIPK LYC 859 El Salvador

Hi Diane, I'm curious about this one. Do you have anything to report on its late blight resistance? I see Tatiana's website says "Late blight resistant" but it would be really interesting to know how it performs now, especially compared to the modern late blight resistant varieties.

Hi,

Seems like

Primabella x Sunviva
Primabella x Giant Bulgarian Tomato

was successful  if anyone in Europe wants seeds i can send them
(Fruits are not ripe now, maybe 15.3.2024!?)

How was the F1, taste, production and fruit size?

Hi TG,
       Primabella x Sunviva is already on my list of F1s to create this year!

       Giant Bulgarian looks an unreliable parent to me, there appear to be quite a few cultivars floating around under that name. ...

Tim DH

Hi Tim,
  you can have some Primabella x Sunviva  Seeds (if there are enough, maybe around 15.3)

Tested this strain of "Giant Bulgarian Tomato" for 2 years here,
it has really the biggest red Tomatos here, up to 1kg.
Also its a very vigorous and vital Plant, Flowers early, reliable and at low Temps.
The Taste is also ok.

The Idea was simply to use the biggest Tomato i have, and lets see :-)
Wonder how big the Result will be.

For Sunviva x Primabella the goal is to get a more crack resistant yellow Tomato than Sunviva, for
the rainy weather here. (and mybe also a red cherry Tomato)

Quote from: ThomatoGarden on 2024-02-14, 07:48:36 AMAlso its a very vigorous and vital Plant, Flowers early, reliable and at low Temps.
The Taste is also ok.

Wow that sounds great. I have actually been searching for the biggest possible tomato! But, without relying on megablooms. (Trying to catch all the size genes/QTLs in one package). Would you say that qualifies? Like, it is reliably very big, not just the occasional megabloom fruits?

Also, did you ever try Omar's Lebanese? I found it while searching for these criteria:
https://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Omar%27s_Lebanese

Tatiana says '18-24 oz', which is around 510~680g. (Some people report larger than this). I'd be interested if you have, to hear how it compares in terms of size, taste, health and productivity. Or general reports from anyone else who might have grown it.

Bulgarian Giant Tomato
https://www.tomatenjunkie.de/bulgarische-riesentomate/
There are also many Pictures, including one with a scale
My biggest Tomato was 980g, normal round shape.
 

Puszta Kolosz is similar.
https://www.tomatenjunkie.de/puszta-kolosz/
but grew it only once.


Didn't grow Omar's Lebanese up now.


(Description of many Tomatoes
https://www.tomatenjunkie.de/sortenuebersicht/  click on 'Blog' for descriptions)

In 2022 i grow Sunviva x Primabella F1. Production is low with 7-9 fruits in a cluster.
Red Peal x Sunviva F1 is much better in taste, but resistance is less.

I did not make a lot of notes for Sunviva x Primabella F1 so it was not special for me.

A new one I'd never heard of is Merrygold F1, supposed to be the first orange blight resistant tomato. Looks cherry size.

https://www.thompson-morgan.com/p/tomato-merrygold-f1-seeds/wkf2497TM (https://www.thompson-morgan.com/p/tomato-merrygold-f1-seeds/wkf2497TM)

https://www.dobies.co.uk/vegetable-seeds/tomato-seeds/tomato-merrygold-f1-seeds_mh11925 (https://www.dobies.co.uk/vegetable-seeds/tomato-seeds/tomato-merrygold-f1-seeds_mh11925)

Hi Maf,
     It's bred by Burpee Europe, and if you are interested in it JUMP QUICK because, according to Hortweek Burpee is pulling out of the UK market in the next couple of months. So I guess non of our usual suppliers will carry Merrygold next year.

Tim DH

Honey Moon F1 has Ph2 + Ph3

https://www.clausehomegarden.com/vegetables/honey-moon-f1

Here is a paper from Austria:

https://www.bio-net.at/fileadmin/bionet/documents/freilandtomaten_phytophtora_stmk_2016.pdf

ZL-Fleisch 332-2 is Vivagrande
ZL-Salat   298-8 is Resibella   
ZL-Salat   298-1 is Rondobella

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QVgjGjO7iHE

UK breeder video that got lost with a bit of a data problem.

there was a link too : https://www.seedsovereignty.info/outdoor-blight-resistant-tomato-trial/

That is an interesting offer. .... I don't qualify, but I know someone who has signed up.

(https://www.seedsovereignty.info/outdoor-blight-resistant-tomato-trial/)

Personally I'm a bit bemused. Why would a breeder be interested in developing an OP version of their own (commercially successful) F1?

This article is about the same (F1) breeding program and sites S.pimp as the source of the Blight resistance.

https://www.theenglishgarden.co.uk/plants/fruits-vegetables-and-herbs/grow-blight-resistant-tomatoes/

Searching 'crawford stroud tomato' will bring up loads of other refs

Quote from: Tim DH on 2024-04-08, 01:13:21 PMThat is an interesting offer. .... I don't qualify, but I know someone who has signed up.

(https://www.seedsovereignty.info/outdoor-blight-resistant-tomato-trial/ (https://www.seedsovereignty.info/outdoor-blight-resistant-tomato-trial/))

Personally I'm a bit bemused. Why would a breeder be interested in developing an OP version of their own (commercially successful) F1?

I posted about this before, I really hope enough people signed up for it! Simon told me he believes they have additional resistance, not just the regular Ph genes. As for why breed them - I guess that depends on who's funding the breeding! He worked for Burpee before, not sure about now.

Here aslo some information about teh Burpee blight resistant tomatoes:
https://landscapingmatters.co.uk/blight-resistance-reigns-supreme-at-the-burpee-europe-trials/

Toddler seems pretty good with good taste and brix 10% and best resistance genes.

There is a new variety West Virginia 23 Mannon's Majesty
https://wvutoday.wvu.edu/stories/2024/01/24/wvu-professor-emeritus-and-creator-of-the-people-s-tomato-unveils-final-variety-makes-limited-seeds-available-for-growers

If have late blight recistance, dont know if it is ph2, ph3, ph5.1 or ph5.2?

I fount it's a crossing 'West Virginia '63' x  wild tomato (Solanum  habrochaites), so maybe only ph2 genes. Mannon focused on Septoria resistance.

Yesterday (6.6.) i discovered the first plant with Late Blight (Hot Streak F2). For now i removed the infected Leaves. Normally i would cull infected plants, but its so early in the year. What are your procedures with infected plants over the year?

Interesting Hot Streak F2 has disease. I'm growing the F1 this year and so far, I've have had no issues. Did you notice the same with F1, and are all of the F2 plants diseased, or just some.

If it's bad enough that the plant isn't likely to make fruit, or if there is any sign of disease on the fruits themselves rather than just the leaves or stems, I pull the plant out and plant something in its place. I don't remove it from the garden make any other effort to control spread of the disease.

For selection I normally leave the affected plants so that only the resistant F2 plants remain. However, since it hits so early this year, I expect that in some time the resistant plants will also be affected. perhaps even before you can harvest seeds.

Between the F2 of Hot Streak we expect 40% of the plants to show insufficient or no resistance.

You also can make cuttings of the less attaqued plants and tryed to pick up seeds in more isolated conditions if the blught attack is too important.
If the plant is very tolerant the infection will stop to progressed on the cutting.

Hello,

i was able to stop the infection by removing infected
leaves, allthough it was so cold that even fungus couldn't grow (13-19°C).
it was just to early to let it go. Normaly i just remove only the lowest heavy infected
leaves which would be removed anyway and which are dead soon, or the Plant if no leaves
 left.

While the Temp got up a little (20°C)
Vivagrande (and some Vivagrande x Sunviva F2) seem to be very very subsceptible
to Alternaria !? (half of the leaves allready dead in a few days)

An other weird thing is the selection of MM F3 here, the Salad size selection turns out
to be more in the determinant direction ? Was a parent big and determinant ?
Didn't see this in the F2 Generation !?


Greetings Thomas

(5pm , 17°C and raining again tz )

Mountain magic is a cross between a determinant beef tomato x indeterminant cherry.

Hello, i know its to early to make any real conclusions about anything, but for
entertainment and discussion, here are some observations i made :
(cause of unstable weather taste is overall bland this year, maybe gets better sometimes)

Black Centiflor: Really healthy at first but also extremly
                 susceptible to late Blight (even fruits allready!)

Tims Taste of Paradiese: Some disease at first but no Late blight until now,
                 really unique Leaves and look. small yellow fruit 1.5 cm.

Rote Zora : Some disease at first but no Late blight until now.

Vivagrande: Extremly much diseases at first (half of leaves allready dead), no late Blight, now recovering

Vivagrande x Sunviva F2:
        Some extremley much diseases up now (half of leaves allready dead), no late Blight, some recovering
        Some pretty healthy
        Some really early, 110 days from seed, Outside, Salad Size, very big plant, productive !.
        Sadly the earlyst, nicest Plant is a little bit subsceptible. (plan to do a trial against Bloody
        Butcher next year to verify)
        for Ref. Gardeners Delight/Black cherry in Greenhouse at 122/124 days from seed here.

Primabella x Sunviva F1: A few leaves infected at the bottom, big plant

Primabella x Bulgarian Giant tom. F1: Surprisingly healthy Plants until now, Salad size, medium to big plant.
               Didn't expect the plant to be this good. I start to think that the overall vitality is also a
               big factor in disease Resistance. Therefore also fruit size reduces the resistance to some degree,
               cause it stresses the plant. Just some random thoughts.

Honey Moon F1: looks ok, healthy up now, nice fruit, low to medium size plant.
               fertilisation not the best under sub optimal conditions.

Bauna F1: healty at first but little Late Blight now and bad fertilisation under sub optimal conditions.

Gourmantsun F1: Little disease at first and no late blight until now !? but i think Buffalosun F1
                 was also a bit resistant at first so... .

Wasipicon Peach: Sadly Late Blight pretty early this year, but only at the bottom, otherwise healty plant

Primabella: 4 of 6 Plants pretty healthy, it seems there are allways some
                  plants which are a little bit weaker to diseases , but no late blight!
                  (This is only for selecting fresh seed and crossing partners,
                     overall the 2 plants have still very little disease !)

Hot Streak F2: 10 of 30 were Potato leaves.
               Most have at least good resistance, also to late blight !
               Most Plants have beefsteak like Tomatoes and are not big plants,
                 a few have big Salad size fruits these are also bigger plants.
               The fertilisation is not good under bad conditions.
               The weak one from June allready has fruit late blight.
               Some have rotten fruit but the plant is healthy !?? Fruit Shape maybe not optimal so water
               remains near steam of fruit (we had extrem rain)?


Mountain Magic F3: Many Plants have the Brachytic Gen from NC 2 Grape, the extreme one is just 80cm high
                   with leaves every 3-4 cm.
                   Some are Determinant.
                   Resistance is really really good until now.
                   (The F3 i collected were all indeterminant 2m high plants !)
                   Many let grow the Fruit trus like a new stem !?
                   This may also partially be caused by the unstable weather
                   (from 15°C max to 30°C max at day, and nights down to 5°C in early Summer) ?
                   Few have smaller, spare leaves.
                   Fruit size differs much more than F2 !?
                                   

Matt's Wild Cherry: Some Diseases , no Late Blight.

Philamina: Bad Seed Source, all 3 have different Fruit (one yellow). very subsceptible to Diseases. Sad.

   
Plants which i will remove soon:
Black Centiflor
Philamina
few Vivagrande x Sunviva F2
few Hot Streak F2

Is someone  interesed in Determinant or small Brachytic MM F3 Plants ? Otherwise i wouldn't take seeds.

Greetings Thomas

We think that Vivagrande is susceptible to Verticillium because the lower leaves also died here. Yet the plant remained otherwise healthy.

Since a small part of your F2 is also susceptible, I would suspect that it is a recessive gene that ensures that the plant is extra susceptible. This is because other varieties are not affected.

We also found potato leaves in the F2 of Hot Streak. (Rose Crush is also a carrier for the potate leave gene. Just like Mountain Rouge)
Why do seed breeders use a potato leave parent?

Primabella is very resistant but end of 2023 it got late blight in my garden. Primabella is resistant to Leave mold and 2024 I have a lot of problems with leave mold in the other varieties.
As far as I know, Primabella is the strongest outdoor tomato available.

I would like some seeds from your small Brachytic MM F3 Plants. Maybe in the future I will start another breeding project with the Brachytic gene in combination with my Nebula project.

p.s. Here the first cherry tomatoes are ripening. Fruit set of the beef varieties is only now starting due to the cold and wet year (rain every day and at night around 10C).

Did u find the Crimson ogc gene in Mountain Magic?

The Crimson ogc gene gives extra dark red fruit and the F1 is heterozygous.

No, didn't see any extra dark red fruit last year, and MM is a little bit later so most have no ripe fruit jet.
ok, will collect some seed from small Brachytic MM F3 Plants.

Yes Primabella is the best stable tomato atm. Reliable survives till frost.
The MM F3's look also very good (until now), and the plants i took seeds from last year were as good as
Primabella.

Update.
This is a weird year, month with 200% rain! Temps going up and down. very Windy. very early late blight and many other diseases and still many Tomato Plants do well outside!?
The strong baler twine i use is already rotten and Tomatoes plants fall to the ground !!!
Had to buy  new syntethic line! 


Black Centiflor: removed, extremly vulnerable to LB, but no other disease!

Tims Taste of Paradiese: removed, few and slow riping fruit

Rote Zora : Some disease at first but no Late blight until now. but extrem green shoulders this year
           and much slower growth than usual, maybe need higher temps !?

Vivagrande: Extremly much diseases at first (half of leaves already dead earlier), no late Blight,
            recovering but it takes a bit. not outgrown first damage fully. but still producing.

Vivagrande x Sunviva F2:
        Some extremly much diseases at first, no late Blight, Plants are strong enough to recover quickly.
        Some pretty healthy
        a bit cracking now, at some plants, but with this much rain its not too bad
        One yellow, cocktail size not cracking !
        one extremly early
        some red nice tomatoes
       

Primabella x Sunviva F1: A few leaves infected at the bottom, big plant, nice productiv good taste. nearly no cracking

Primabella x Bulgarian Giant tom. F1: Surprisingly healthy Plants until now, Salad size, medium to big plant.
               nice good tasting fruit. nearly no cracking ,much seed

Honey Moon F1: plant health medium , nice fruit but a little bit hard, low to medium size plant.
               taste good,  no cracking , at least no fruit late blight

Bauna F1: also little fruit LB now , taste bad, removed

Gourmantsun F1: maybe usable, nice yellow red heartshape fruit.   plants could be more vital.
                plant health medium, no fruit late blight

Wasipicon Peach: Sadly Late Blight pretty early this year, now also on fruit

Primabella: 4 of 6 Plants pretty healthy, it seems there are always some
                  plants which are a little bit weaker to diseases , but no late blight!
                  (This is only for selecting fresh seed and crossing partners,
                     overall the 2 plants have still very little disease !)

Hot Streak F2: had to remove one third cause of fruit late blight, even when the plants didn't look
              that bad!? some had 'wooden' areas around the steam and some have cracking which caused
               them to rot.
               Some were not healthy anymore and were removed.
               One has very sturdy big fruits even if they lay on the ground, early,
                 but is not super healthy.
               Some are really healthy up now but fruit quality is not too good, some rotten fruit
                (but the weather is also extrem , wet , hail storms etc.)
               (60% removed)

Mountain Magic F3:
               Negativ:
               - 5 Plants from MM F3 Salad doesnt ripen up now, many big green fruit !? - culled.
               - one Plant ripe then cracked, determinant - culled
               - 4 determinant small slow producing Plants - culled
               - 3 indeterminat slow growing Plants - removed
               - many have really hard fruit !? shelf life genes ?
               - many grow stems out the fruit truss, weather ?
               Positiv:
               - one small Beefsteak size Tomato (weirdly from MM Cocktail size)
               - Resistance is still really good until now.
               - one big salad size Tomato
               - some nice cocktail size Tomato
   it seems really difficult to select from MM
                                                                 

Matt's Wild Cherry: Some Diseases , no Late Blight.

Philamina: Bad Seed Source, removed

One parent of mountain magic has the mutation ripening inhibithor.

https://www.les-tomos.fr/viewtopic.php?p=121392#p121392

It has zlso finished to appeard in very good fruits between mountain magic and orange jazz

Hi ThomatoGarden,
        I agree   'Weird Year' here too!

   Last year my outdoor season was in full swing by now. This year it's not really started yet.
   Last year some of my plants were already dead. This year I have yet to see ANY Blight!

   One of the problems early on seems to be that the plants were not producing viable pollen. That played havoc with my plans to make crosses. The fruit set on first/second trusses was very poor.

   Another problem has been purchased seed not being true to type, but that happens every year!

   I agree that your Primabella x Bulgarian Giant F1 is a VERY good looking plant. Hopefully with a bit of nice weather forecast for September, I might soon get to taste some fruit...........

Tim DH

For the Rin homozygous plants the Sepal should be bigger.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168945220300388


(https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ruud-De-Maagd/publication/339020539/figure/fig2/AS:863276078493696@1582832464581/Phenotypes-of-mutant-fruits-at-the-ripe-or-equivalent-stage-Fruits-A-and-H-J-are-at.png)

What is the purpose of the Rin Gene ? i don't understand.

That i have understand
The ethylene emission is desactivated or reduced when a variety with rin is crossed with z normzl variety. The fruit don't get mature and don't moist during the transport znd the selling period.

The Rin gene is used as heterozygous for extra long shelf life of the tomato fruit.
So it can be used to make F1 hybrids.

Are wild Everglades current tomatos being tested for certain resistances?

Ok, I see what the rin gen does.

Following this i monitored the MM Plants in this regard, and for red color (Roland told me)
(all MM have at least ok/good resistance !!)

What i found:

Small beefsteak like Tomatoe:  slow ripening and a less colour,hard skin.

Salad size Tomatoe 1        :  slow ripening hard skin ok red colour

Salad size Tomatoe 2+3      :  good red colour only little bit slower ripening, a little bit weaker resistance
                               not that hard fruit?

heart shape Salad 1         : extremly resistant, slow ripening, hard skin, normal colour

heart shape Salad 2+3       : slow ripening, hard skin, normal colour

heart shape Salad brachytic : extremly resistant,slow ripening, hard skin, strong short growing, normal colour

cocktail size  1            : good resistant, strong growing, soft, nice, ok colour

cocktail size  2-4          : ok resistant, soft,

ATM im going for 'cocktail size 1' and one of 'Salad size Tomatoe 2+3' dependant on the resistance,
but if anyone is interrested in on of the other ones i will take seed.
(still taking seed from the most resistant at end of september!)


Homey Moon F1 : sadly Plants are not so healhy anymore, but fruit quality is good, no cracking but a bit hard!
Gournanssun F1 : sadly Plants are not so healhy anymore, but fruit quality is ok, little cracking!
both are NOT the most vigourous Plants! but still producing.

Primabella x Bulgarian Giant tom. F1: + very healthy salad size Tomato, taste good, big plant
                                      -/+ productivity soso, much seed
                                      - nothing

Hot Streak No 1    : very Big rippled Fruit, early , Fruit doesnt rot even if they are laying on the ground +
                     Plant middle size , Resistance middle

Hot Streak No 2    : potatoleaf plant, healty, apple like fruits a bit late.

Hot Streak No 3    : Potatoe leaf Plant, healty Plant, yellow orange apple like fruit

Hot Streak No 4    : big Plant, apple Like fruit yellow red
 
Hot Streak No 5    : +++ potato Leaf Plant, very very healty, red orange yellow Fruit, apple size, no roting

Hot Streak No 6    : healty Plant, healty Fruit, red with yellow stripes, no roten fruit, plant big

Hot Streak No 7    : potato leaf 2m Plant, fruit apple size, healty, low cracking +, orange striped

Hot Streak No 8    :  healty/ok big big  plant fruit red with yellow stripes a bit cracking

(Hot Streak No 9   :  not sure, big big plant nice fruit but resistance soso)

Atm im going for 'Hot Streak No 5' but time will tell until October.


Primabella x Sunviva F1: ++ really nice good tasting cocktail size tomatoes.

Vivagrande x Sunviva F2: nice yellow tomatoes (took seed)
                         one early (took seed)
                         but most nice red ones, have to wait for natural selection.

 
Just some observations, always tell if you want some seeds.

greetings Thomas

Nice to see that there is selection of Hot Streak in Europe :)

Has anyone grew "Giant of Siebenburgen" ?
In my greenhouse they are the only Plants which are really healthy and still going !?
All other are already gone or just there to ripen the last few fruits, but pretty much dead soon.
(from 30 varieties)

Late Blight has put in a late appearance in the Garden.

Japanese Black Triefele and Tim's Taste of Paradise were the first to fold.

Matina, Thai Pink & Latah don't look like they'll be far behind.

All of the F1s with Sunviva as a parent look good. Sunviva itself is fine BUT has produced very little fruit.

I'll go & have a look at the Allotment later. .......

Here some news of a starting project of mine : combining LB resistance genes Ph2, Ph3 and Ph5s

I've grown the F1 hybrid between S. pimpi PI270443 and a F4 derived from Galahad.
The Galahad parent should have homozygous Ph2 and Ph3 (as far as i have understood from some reported convos with the breeder), the wild parent has whatever genes give it similar (or better) resistance to LB in some US publications.

The plant is vigorous, no visible infection by LB, thought it has some disease to older leaves (i guess it is septoria, maybe early blight ?).

Resistance from PI270443 is not very clear. My understanding from reading last publications is that the majority of resistance to LB is conferred by two dominant genes. One of those could be Ph2 (the accession react to Ph2 gene marker), but could also be on a locus close of Ph2 or could be a different allele of Ph2 for the same locus. Studies suggest that it is more powerful than Ph2.

The fruits weight 10gr, the wild parent has fruits 1cm wide, and the Galahad are standard beefsteak sized fruits, so there is potential for bigger fruits.

I have a looooooot of seeds available for european breeders to do mass F2 selection, send me a pm !

Should be the first time all these genes are available together in Europe, so it is an opportunity to combine resistance before a strain break Ph2+Ph3 (and strains overcoming Ph2 (and maybe Ph2+Ph3) are already out)

That is very cool, I haven't yet managed to make a cross between the cross I made with the PH5 current and the cross I made with Galahad F1.

Very nice to see if a triple ph  exist.

Quote from: William Schlegel on 2024-09-19, 06:31:25 AMThat is very cool, I haven't yet managed to make a cross between the cross I made with the PH5 current and the cross I made with Galahad F1.

You mean not enough time or your crosses didnt take ?

I've worked with only an handful of pimpi accession but maybe 90%-100% of my crosses cultivated x pimpi failed, whereas pimpi x cultivated or interspecies hybrid x pimpi are a lot easier to take (but pimpi as female is a pain to hand pollinate !)

Quote from: Nicolas on 2024-09-19, 11:03:03 AMYou mean not enough time or your crosses didnt take ?

I've worked with only an handful of pimpi accession but maybe 90%-100% of my crosses cultivated x pimpi failed, whereas pimpi x cultivated or interspecies hybrid x pimpi are a lot easier to take (but pimpi as female is a pain to hand pollinate !)

No mainly just havent gotten it attempted this year. I've only managed about 20 unique crosses this year and few of them very exciting. So I have a cross with galahad and 1/2 and 1/4 crosses with the ph5 currant tomato but no crosses between the two lineages yet.

I had a couple of LB resistant plants in my trial this year, and did some crosses with Mountain Gem.
This is a very firm,large, uniform ripening red tomato, really easy to work with as a mother plant and took pollen for a cross more readily than it pollinated itself in my conditions here.  Besides being an easy mother plant, many of the fruit were bluntly heart shaped in the greenhouse conditions, which suggests to me that some important genes for shape stabilization are present - very useful for breeding beefs.
On the difficult side, it was very late to ripen by my usual standards, not very tolerant of local conditions and not resistant to the Alternaria blight we're getting in the hot sticky weather, although described as moderately resistant to EB, it did no better than my own lines, which is important for me to know as I continue looking for the resistance genes I need.
I had made my crosses already on spec by the time the blight conditions kicked in, so I did get seeds from crosses with Rodney and Skipper Pink, but to grow this out I would have to select very hard for earliness.
I also saved seeds from a cross with my GWR bicolor Kelly's Island Rumpus F4, which might be interesting to grow.  We aren't getting LB here at present, so no way to select for those useful resistance genes without marker selection.

Plum Regal, I didn't get a cross in since it was really late even to produce a flower.  It set some fruit outdoors.  This was so much later, I wouldn't try growing it again.  Also not resistant to our Alternaria.

A third plant with LB resistance genes was Mini Rose from the Ottawa Research Station back in the 70's.  The fruit are so tiny, it would be really a job to recover fruit size, probably no better than working with a pimp, so I didn't make any crosses there.

Of 120 outdoor plants, 15 are left

2 x Mountain Magic F3 Salad size - hard, slow ripening, very very resistant
                              - hard, slow ripening, 

2 x Primabella

3 x Primabella x Sunviva F1 - strong growing, good taste

2 x Vivagrande x Sunviva F2 - a bit crack sensitive, strong growing, good taste

1 x Matt's Wild Cherry -

1 x Hot Streak F2 No 5 - very few seeds, potato leaf, well resistant, cracks heal,
                                  hardly rots, apple-shaped fruits

2 x Primabella x Bulgarian giant tomato F1 - salad tomato, good taste, sweet mild, lots of seeds

2 x Mountain Magic F3 Cocktail

These plants are only about 50% healthy (except the one MM F3 lettuce 70%) and will soon be removed!

Honey Moon F1 was similarly resistant, but rather slow growing.

Giant of Siebenburgen - 99% healthy in the greenhouse!?, although all the other plants there had
                           diverse diseases (including LB), and most already are
                            removed, still produces large tomatoes. Largest in August 1240g.
                           Sweet, healthy fruit.

Fruit quality:
       With wet weather like this year, the quality of the fruit is just as important as that
       resistance to diseases. When fruits burst and rot in the rain, it doesn't matter if the
       plant is healthy. Hot Streak had a very big problem here, while all the fruits of
       Honey Moon were healthy. All crosses with Sunviva were also not optimal in this regard.


Rough plan for outdoors 2025:

- Primabella x Bulgarian giant tomato F2        32
- MM F4 Cocktail No. 2                          8
- MM F4 Salad (very resistant)                  8
- Vivagrande x Sunviva F3 yellow large cocktail 8
- Vivagrande x Sunviva F3 red cocktail No. 1    8
- Primabella x Sunviva F2                       20
- Hot Streak F3 No. 5                           10   
- Honney Moon F2                                10
- Giant of Siebenburgen                         4

(i can send Seeds for free as usual (only Hot Streak F3 No5 is difficult cause not much seed and Nicolas allready reserved some))

Less than 10% left, that is a strong selection. The MM Salad seems interesting.

Sunviva is very sensitive to craking, perhaps you can see an improvement in F3.

I can't wait to see what segregation you will find in the F2 Primabella x Bulgarian giant.

https://plantbreeding.ncsu.edu/cultivars/tomatoes/
A lot of new varieties that have late blight resistance.

Quote from: ThomatoGarden on 2024-10-06, 06:11:19 AMOf 120 outdoor plants, 15 are left


1 x Hot Streak F2 No 5 - very few seeds, potato leaf, well resistant, cracks heal, hardly rots, apple-shaped fruits
                       
Fruit quality:
       With wet weather like this year, the quality of the fruit is just as important as that
       resistance to diseases. When fruits burst and rot in the rain, it doesn't matter if the
       plant is healthy. Hot Streak had a very big problem here, while all the fruits of
       Honey Moon were healthy. All crosses with Sunviva were also not optimal in this regard.

Rough plan for outdoors 2025:
- Hot Streak F3 No. 5                   

I see you are working with Hot Streak and it's even in your 2025 plan. I take that as you regard it as worthwhile. I grew the F1 this year and out of all the new ones it was pretty good. It wasn't noticeably disease tolerant, and the fruits cracked a bit but healed. I agree completely that disease resistance doesn't matter much if something else ruins the fruit. Hot Streak mad a nice harvest and the fruits themselves were not bothered by disease. Plum Regal is like that too, the plants might almost die but the mass amount of fruit ripens fine anyway, I/m ok with that.

Did I understand correctly that the F2 NO 5 was potato leaf? Out of how many total?

I got the seeds from Roland they are working with Hot Streak and many others in their NL/Belgium Projekt.

Yes Hot Streak No 5 is Potato Leaf. 11 out of 30 were Potatoe leaf.

Hot Streak is a really good looking Tomatoe, a nephew said they look like apples thats why i allways say
apple like fruit :-) . Classic it would be heart shaped. Its worth to try selecting it.

Compared to other so called resistant commercial Tomatoes (Crimson ... , Bufallosun, Gourmonsun, ....)
up now only Hot Streak and Honney Moon showed some Potential.

Hot Streak F1 on Johnny's has an impressive list of additional resistances. Maybe some of them are quite important in your climate?

Yes this year was extreme, there were many different Diseases. At some Point i stopped to figure out what disease it was.

Even Mountain Magic (one was a bit more resistant) and Primabella had problems outside. I like selecting plants but this year was bad. At the End i was in fear to growing stronger diseases
than resistant Tomatoes!

A new late blight resistant variety:
Black Angel F1

https://www.johnnyseeds.com/vegetables/tomatoes/specialty-tomatoes/black-angel-organic-f1-tomato-seed-5162G.html?srsltid=AfmBOorK8lZ3RZSlhGKVWwNmZqIWc-yKvNEBAGcW9r5CIkfVuM0CPsvy

It hase a lot of resistance genes and:
Homozygous for the Crimson gene for extra red flesh,
Homozygous for the gf gene for green fles.

http://blogs.evergreen.edu/fieldstudy-patrick/analyzing-late-blight-severity-and-summary-table/

Two of Frank Morton's Three OSSI tomatoes were evaluated in the above study for Late Blight. Notably his Estate scored number four out of the group evaluated. That seems pretty good for a cross that sounds like Peron Sprayless x (Stupice x Homestead).

Stupice was bred in the 1940's in Czechoslovakia, Homestead in Florida in 1952, and Peron Sprayless prior to 1954 in Argentina. I would suspect there might be some early modern traits in tomatoes of that vintage.

Very interesting Trial, it matches with my experiences (Mountain Merrit, Matina) .

Any Source for Damsel F1 in Europe ?

Would like to test it.

QuoteAs a seed saver, I do wish Damsel was open-pollinated. This would allow for annual growing and selecting the best individuals as they compete with the unique and dynamic pathogen/pest populations at each growing site.

I'm a little sad reading this. There is a lack of understanding in the gardening community about possibilities of manual crossing and selection of hybrids...

There is someone selling 'Damsel F-1' on Ebay.
They reckon the seed is 'Own Farm Organically Grown'
They also state it is 'Over a decade stable'

Hmmm..... Has the real Damsel F1 actually been available for a decade?

If so this might be an innocent/ignorant mis-understanding about what F and 1 means, and they might be selling a stable OP growout.......

https://earthworkseeds.com/Tomatoes/

Amongst Earthworkseeds tomatoes it looks like Damsal F1 has far fewer resistances than Galahad F1.

The fact sheets are interesting. Both tomatoes have three resistances to nematodes.

Galahad is an interesting variety, i think Roland knows more about it, but its determinant.
Arjan sent me some Damsel f1 seeds, so i will be able to report if its resistant here in Europe.

This winter i will cross a bit more to taste and not only resistance.
- 2 x Primabella
- 1 x Wasipicon peach
- 1 x Giant of Siebenbürgen
- 1 x Siberian Tiger
- 1 x Rondobella
the plants are already growing nice.


 Primabella x Wasipicon peach   Resistence + taste + colour
 Primabella x Giant of Siebenbürgen   good Resistence + vigor
 Primabella x Siberian Tiger  Resistence + taste
 Rondobella x Sibirian Tiger    Resistence + taste
 Rondobella x Wasipicon peach   Resistence + taste + colour
 Rondobella x Giant of Siebenbürgen   good Resistence + taste + size + vigor


 Rondobella x Sibirian Tiger may be a good one for back crosing taste wise.

Size of plants atm.

Rondobella, Giant of siebenburgen, Wasipicon peach  15cm
Siberian tiger                                      13cm
Primabella                                          10cm

Allways interesting that Primabella starts so slow.

Hope i will be succesful with this crossings.

I sorted out Sunviva x Vivagrande for outside tests cause of cracking, but in Greenhouse it could be nice.
If crossed with Ruhtje, Cerise red or even Campari F3 it would be something.

BtW: I found a nice tasty vigourous Campari F3 this year if anyone is interested i can send seeds.

Galahad did not perform well in my garden this year. Production was poor, disease tolerance not the best and flavor was very lacking compared to what I expect. Hot Streak F1 was much better in all ways. I'm growing F2 of the HS next year but not Galahad.

Hot streak F1 resistance:
Late Blight
Gray Leaf Spot
Verticillium Wilt (High)
Fusarium Wilt races 1–2 (High)
Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus (High)

Fusarium Crown and Root Rot (High)
Tomato Mosaic Virus (High)
Resistant to Leaf Molds A-E (High)


Galahad F1 resistance:
 Late Blight (stronger as Hot Streak)
 Gray Leaf Spot (Sl)
 Gray Leaf Spot (Ss)
 Verticillium Wilt (Va: 1)
 Verticillium Wilt (Vd: 1)
 Fusarium Wilt (Fol: 1-3)
 Tomato Spotted Wilt (TSWV)
 Root-knot Nematode (Ma)
 Root-knot Nematode (Mi)
 Root-knot Nematode (Mj)

So it seems Hot Streak have more resistance for:
Fusarium Crown and Root Rot (High)
Tomato Mosaic Virus (High)
Resistant to Leaf Molds A-E (High)

Quote from: Roland on 2024-12-20, 12:12:17 PMSo it seems Hot Streak have more resistance for:
Fusarium Crown and Root Rot (High)
Tomato Mosaic Virus (High)
Resistant to Leaf Molds A-E (High)

That seems like an interesting analysis. If it is resistances that cause the good performance of Hot Streak for Reed than one or more of those three might be the key difference for him between those two varieties. Then I would be interested to know if any of his old standbys by happenstance have good resistance to those diseases?

I have to admit that neither Galahad nor purple zebra are standouts in my garden but I don't think I have any severe tomato disease. In theory the root knot resistance should help in the old fenced garden which has some perhaps due to the sand addition I did there. Apparently root knots are worse in sandy soils.

I don't think I'll ever know any specific reason why a tomato does good or bad in my garden. My measure of it is a bit different from what others might consider because flavor is really important too. Actually, production and flavor are the most important of all. If I get good tasting tomatoes anyway, I don't care if the plant had disease issues. And I don't know any specific disease issues. I've been growing tomatoes in the same little spot for nearly thirty years and have never bothered with trying to eliminate disease by disposing of sick vines or anything else like that. I figure by now if there is a tomato disease that lives in soil or on last year's vines then it's here. This was a droughty year too and I didn't water so on top of any other issues the plants had to deal with that.


Of my old standbys, Hoosier Rose, Utha Heart, Cherokee Purple, Mr. Stripey and of course the pimp collection held up fine as usual although I expect even they, would have done better with a little extra water.

Of the new ones only Hot Streak came though well to have a for sure place in the garden next year. Its foliage had pretty noticeable brown curling leaves, probably as bad as Galahad was but unlike Galahad it made lots of good tasting tomatoes. Utha Heart does that too. It usually makes two harvests, an early smaller one and a later bigger one but by the time the second one is ripening good the plants themselves except for the fruit, usually look kind of bad. Of all my tomatoes the one most likely to still have full lush foliage all season long is Hoosier Rose. 

If I looked at just my oldest ones that I've had for thirty years or more I would think they had just adapted to my garden, but that's not the case because I've only had Hoosier Rose for maybe ten years, and it did good the first year or I wouldn't have kept it. I only got Willard Win three years ago and it's better except for flavor than my oldest one, Mr. Stripy and it's not far behind on flavor.

I'm still convinced there is some correlation between beefsteak tomatoes originating along the Appalachian Mountains, especially the more southern parts and if a tomato will do well for me. But that's not a sure thing either. I tried one this year called Brandywine OTV that I was excited about based on its origin and description, but it was as bad as Galahad.   




 

It is not entirely clear to me yet.
Galahad's fruits were not tasty but he produced?
Or Galahad produced no fruit?

I know that the F2 Galahad contains plants with extremely tasty fruits.
Maybe Damsel (the half-sister of Galahad) is a good one for you because many people like the taste of Damsel F1 better than Galahad F1.

Galahad did produce some good-looking fruits, but only a few and they did not taste good. Interesting some of the F2 might taste better but I have limited space and have to combine my selection trials with proven producers. Hot Streak F1 was so much better than Galahad F1, I figure chances in the F2 are better with it.

I received LA1269 a Solanum pimpinellifolium from Peru and I think the notes said it was the source of PH3 in a seed trade last winter. I already had PI 270443 the source of PH5. It strikes me that working with these original source wild strains has some value and I like the idea of including new wild genetics in more tomatoes. Even from a source like LA1269 which if it is indeed the source of PH3 it has obviously been used heavily for that introgression- there may be a lot of gene variants left on the cutting room floor so to speak that were bred out. The introgressions do tend to be quite large- but still a lot gets bred out when you only want the introgression. One thought about those is also this: You could cross a few currant tomato accessions together and register the resulting new material as breeding stock with OSSI. Might be an interesting way to protect some germplasm and still have it in a somewhat concentrated form. Or alternatively- create some novel but high percentage current tomato tiny cherry tomatoes with something like 3/4 or higher wild genetics. I have some 50% wild currant crosses that are already segregating back to blue bicolor. Crossed to currant again and they would be 3/4 current and then some of those would segregate to be very small blue bicolor tomatoes in the F2. Done iteratively it could be a nice approach for late blight resistance especially for cherry and currant sized tomatoes and for currant sized tomatoes it would expand a size class with relatively few color offerings and limited variety distinctiveness.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1827261935/marchenengel-aka-fairy-tale-angel-tomato?

https://heritageseedmarket.com/index.php/product/fairy-tale-forest-marchenwald/

https://bountyhunterseeds.com/product/marchenwald-rl-tomato/

https://bountyhunterseeds.com/product/marchenwald-pl-tomato/

The OSS Marchengel and Marchenwald seem to have made it to the US. They seem to combine anthocyanin and resistance based on the OSS descriptions.

https://opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-m%C3%A4rchenengel

https://opensourceseeds.org/en/seed/tomato-m%C3%A4rchenwald

Has anyone grown them in a late blight prone area or does anyone know which resistance genes they have?

In this study the heirloom varieties Matt's Wild Cherry, Lemon Drop, and Mr. Stripey show very good resistance for Phytophthora Us23, comparable with ph2+ph3 homozygous.

https://usablight.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Hansen-Differential-susceptibility-of-39-tomato-varieties-to-Phytophthora-infestans-clonal-lineage-US-23.pdf

Has a follow-up study been conducted in which the resistant QTLs of these varieties have been investigated?

Mr. Stripey has been a favorite of mine for decades. It is one of two that William did some crosses for me with. I'm becoming more convinced that not just it but many (but not all) of the so-called beefsteak tomatoes kept as heirlooms in the eastern US for a long time may have some overlooked qualities. I thought it was just regional adaptation but maybe it is something genetic as well.

From what I understand Brad or XH9 is just a cross between a short season domestic from Russia called Jagodka and another beefsteak called Hillbilly, which is very similar to Mr. Stripey. Three years ago, I found another one that rivals Mr. Stripey called Willard Winn. It is shorter season and more productive than Mr. Stripey and lot more so than Hillbilly.

If I was more skilled at such things and knew where to get Jagodka seeds I would try recreating HX9 by crossing Jagodka with Willard Wynn instead of Hillbilly. I think it might yield some still more productive and shorter season tomatoes. I wonder what direction that cross was done in.

Sounds like more trouble than it's worth though because based on the F1 grow out, I think the crosses William did with mine are going to yield all kinds of fantastic tomatoes already.

Big Hill is the new name for HX-9. It's descended from Joseph's strain of Jagodka x Hillbilly. Both Jagodka and Big Hill are determinate. The tomato Joseph calls Brad was sent to him from some famous tomato seed savers in Canada but it wasn't true to type so he ended up calling it Brad. Notably Brad is indeterminate. The article that Roland found points out that indeterminate tomatoes have a leg up on determinate tomatoes in Late Blight situations. That could mean that short season indeterminates (and resistant crosses thereof) like Brad might become more important for short season growers in areas where Late Blight is prevalent than the determinates. It also might mean that a determinate tomato with good genes for late blight resistance might never reach the same potential it would if it were indeterminate. Which suggests that one line of breeding for late blight resistance would be to make indeterminate crosses with any determinate resistant varieties.

It doesn't surprise me as much that Matt's Wild Cherry and Lemon Drop have resistance as it does that Mr. Stripey does. Current and Cherry tomatoes have a potentially much broader ancestry.

Isn't it strange that no research is being done into the QTLs of Matt's Wild Cherry, Lemon Drop and Mr. Stripey?

Surely there must have already been a study done on this?

Quote from: Roland on 2025-01-16, 11:36:56 AMIsn't it strange that no research is being done into the QTLs of Matt's Wild Cherry, Lemon Drop and Mr. Stripey?

Surely there must have already been a study done on this?

I haven't found time to search but it could go either way. If it hasn't been done it may yet be research that needs to be done. Definitely seems like a interesting line of inquiry.

Seem's Matt's wild cherry is a wild Mexican accession- with Mexico being where Late Blight has maximum diversity its resistance makes sense.

https://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Matt%27s_Wild_Cherry

https://www.gardeningtipsandtools.com/vegetable-gardening/lemon-drop-cherry-tomatoes-a-gardeners-delight/

https://shop.seedsavers.org/lemon-drop-organic-tomato

Seems Lemon Drop was found on Snow White- could be a cross or a back mutation or a segregation back to yellow. It seems Snow White was the result of a white x yellow cross itself.
https://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Snow_White

Still no idea if anyone has sequenced them though but I would say it would be wrong to think of the two cherry tomatoes as simply being heirlooms. An early modern and a true Mexican cherry tomato seems more accurate .

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/the-source-of-the-irish-potato-famine-pathogen-is-finally-identified?fbclid=IwY2xjawIMzg5leHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHcp-UizMWdyfJEt_13fLN0tXiKjAy6qknsVkulAYmHAfY3F6j7uCSTcOMg_aem_DGQQMT5Wknz1vAHMJR0ynw

Almost all varieties of Gana Seeds have the ph3 gene:
https://ganeseed-en.imweb.me/33

I know F1 Appleberry yellow is ph3 homozygous.

Interesting, small sizes though

Question:

MM F4 Salat No 2(very very resistant ,hard , slow ripening)   
    Resistance better Primabella, nearly immune to any disease outside,
    but hard slow ripening fruit, Like "Supermarket" Tomatoes
    only few brown leaf at the bottom, at the end of the year. (160% rain than normal)
    half under a small tree. worst place of all. Healthiest plant last year.

what to do? is there any use for this "Supermarket" Tomatoes?
I don't want to throw them away, cause they are so resistant, but the fruit were so weird!?
 


   

Does it maybe have the Rin gene for never full ripe and long shelflife in heterozygous form?

It seems so.

Oh found a video, my memory was not 100% correct.
there were a little bit disease on 20.9.2024, but not that much.
It was still the healthiest plant at the end of the year. Although it had really the worst place.

https://youtu.be/Kz5oj2ReAnw Time: 0.10-0.40

I think i will grow 2 plants, just out of curiosity, but have no really use for it.

Will it ripe better in polytunnel, with more heat ?

The Rin gene is great for making your own hybrids. Once you have stabilized it I would love to buy some seeds from you.

Maybe i can grow a few more (plant closer) and select early to make space.

But I only give away seeds for free. :-)

Quote from: ThomatoGarden on 2024-12-19, 10:27:09 AMGalahad is an interesting variety, i think Roland knows more about it, but its determinant.

I'm growing Galahad F1 for the first time this year, mainly to see if it is more resistant to the diseases in my garden than other varieties. I hope to attempt some crosses with it, but I am still trying to successfully cross tomatoes!

Hello to all,

here's just a little Report on how it is going in my Outdoor Tomato Trial. (started writing maybe 1.8)
I have not seen any Late Blight, but Early Blight (EB) is present in different degrees.

9.8.2025 in the span of two days LB has shown up heavily, just as the Temperatures got 24°C and above.
   So now it gets interesting. Today removed 11 Plants cause of LB and 1 EB.
   Total of 15 removed.



- Primabella x Bulgaria Giant Tomato F2       29 Plants
  One Plant was weak and seemed to have some root disease, removed it.
  From the others there are many Salad Size Tomatoes (5-6 cm) and some Cocktail size ones (3-4 cm)
  The Salat Size Tomatoes often look like tiny Beefsteak tomatoes !?
  3 Plants are Beefsteak Tomatoes (9-10 cm) with the size like Damsel F1.
  (One of these Plants is really small ? maybe it has also some root Problems but i keep it for now
  cause if i theoretically upscale this Plant it would have the biggest Tomateos)
  The Resistance to EB is overall ok, some show no signs of disease like Primabella 2024, some have a few
  leaves infected.
  The problem with the huge amount of seeds persists sadly.
  9.8.2025 in two days a whole Plant got heavily infected, even fruit, by late blight ! removed immediately
           a few more removed , sadly one beefsteak.

- MM F4 Cocktail                                7 Plants
  Overall good Selection, the plants and Fruit Sice are similar to each other. Nice good growing vital
  Plants.
  EB infection differs a little from very little to some leaves infected but not dramatic.
  Hope one plant will have good LB resistant this year , that would be great.


- Primabella x Sunniva F2                      21 Plants
  Many big Plants (2 m), from dense to loose foliage. EB is present from 0 to concerning like Sunviva.
  So as to expect from a F2 Generation. What is unusual is that some Fruit are bigger than both Parents!?
  Overall there are some really nice vital strong growing Plants.
  4 are yellow and 1 yellow is crack resistant and a bit like Sunviva, also good taste , this was the goal.
  The other 3 have only little horizontal cracks which seem to heal, they have also bigger fruits.
 

- Hot Streak F3 No 5                             10  Plants
  Small Plants until now, 1m +- , good Fruit setting. some are heavily infected with EB and i will remove
  them soon.
  But there are also some with only a few infected Leaves, so hopefully some will survive also LB.
  The Fruits are smaller then expected but the Advantage is they have no cracking! which nearly all Plants
  had last year.
  Another Advantage of the smaller Fruit is that they ripen faster here.
  9.8 removed one cause EB destroyed all leaves.


- Honey Moon F2                                  4 Plants
  Sadly 3 Plants are determinant, so only one indeterminant. EB is a big Problem, and contrary to last
  year fruits are cracking. The healthy Fruit were the only Reason to test again, so Plants will be removed
  soon. 
  9.8 Removed.


- MM F4 Salat                                     7 Plants
  Sadly this selection is not so uniform than the Cocktail Selection, cant really judge this atm.
  But most are resistant to EB

- Galahad x Ph5        F3                         7 Plants
  Very wide Variety of Plants. Maybe there is something interesting.
  Unfortunately The Fruits are all a bit soft and mushy.
  9.8 Removed some cause of LB

 
- Damsel F1                                       4 Plants
  Nice Plants with Beefsteak Size (10cm) Tomatoes. At first there were some yellow leaves from EB but the
  plants fought it off and the areas are now dried off and the leaves are still alive .
  Some Fruits have Cracks at the top that for now heal, but it worries me a bit.


- Rondobella                                      3 Plants
  Very unique Plant. Loose foliage, tall 1.7m , light green leaves. EB is present over 1/3 of the plant,
  but only on very small spots, maybe some kind of defense. Unique fruity taste.


- Giant of Siebenbuergen                          5 Plants
  Typical hanging thin Foliage, Plant around 1.5m , a little bit of EB but ok. Cause its not a known
  resistant Variety we have to wait how its doing Outdoors. Big Fruit even outdoor here.
  Some fruit had LB, have to monitor that. The Plants look ok. I give this variety a little more time
  to see what happens, otherwise fruit LB would be an no go.


- MM F4 Salad (very resistant ,hard slow ripe)      9 Plants
  Most are Medium size compact strong Plants, little to no EB. Only one Plant has small thin leaves. 


- Purple Zebra F2                                3 Plants
  Pretty healthy Plants, EB was defeated by drying of the infected spots. no yellow leaves anymore.
  The size of the fruit differs a little. One is smaller and has a pointy little tip.
  9.8 a little LB now but lets see how the Plants handle it.


- Lemon Drop                                      2 Plants
  Cherry size Tomatoes, taste ok, first a bit EB but it didn't spread further to the upper leaves.
  Sadly Fruits are cracking much.
  9.8 removed.


- Primabella 2024                                 4 Plants
  First they start slow but then they keep going and grow steadily
  Few Signs of EB one some. Despite selecting the strong Resistant Plants in 2024 there is the same
  variation in Plants again, 2 with dense,strong a bit hanging leaves which are more healthy and 2
  with thinner horizontal leaves with a bit more EB. ??

- Gourmansun F2                                   3  Plants
  not much EB so they can stay a bit longer :-) One has very little EB and the Fruits are more like
  Beefsteak. also this Plant is a bit more vital.
  9.8 removed the first cause LB.

- VG x Sunviva F3 yellow                            2   Plants
  one already removed cause to much EB (one half of a 1.4 m plant) the other one is a little bit better
  but also smaller, they are still cracking fast outdoors and also indoor.
  In the Greenhouse they are the biggest Plants and i couldn't stop the growth by letting two stems grow.
  Maybe good crossing Partner for old yellow heirloom Tomatoes like Old German, Pineapple.... .


Crosses i managed this Summer:
  Wasipicon Peach x Primabella
  Cerise Red  x Primabella
  Dancing with Smurfs x Primabella
  Giant of Siebenburgen x Primabella
  Primabella x Giant of Siebenburgen

Late Blight hasn't arrived here yet.
This is Potemkin F1 (Imur Prior Beta x Latah) which has performed well in the last two seasons. That is, of course, no guarantee that it will stand up against 2025's strain of blight. But at the very least I'm going to get some fruit before it goes down!

Tim DH

Results October 2025

Primabella x Sunviva F2
      luckily found a yellow, crack resistant, small, shiny Tomatoe.
      It won the annual taste Testing! realy delicous. very aromatic and sweet.
      The resistance is like Sunviva, which should be ok.
      Hope to stabilize this next seasons.
     
      Another red one is more vital, resistant, crack resistant but not
      as tasty as the yellow one. but still good tasting.

MM F4 Cocktail
      suprisingly all plants have the same fruit size and
      2 have good resistance (like primabella)and are also crack resistant.
      Didn't expect this cause last year this was not the most resistant plant !
      hope this will continue next year.
      The plants are very similar to Primabella but faster growing in the first weeks.

Primabella x Bulgarian Giant tomato F2
      No.17 is a very healty and very vigouros Salad size tomato, but low production
      still i will grow this one next year.
 

Hi TG,
    Blight never really became a problem here last season, so my blight trials are all void! Still, can't complain, I got loads of tomatoes!!
    Do you hope your Primabella/Sunviva yellow will be more blight resistant than its parents?

Tim DH

Hello Tim

No, the goal was to get a crack resistant Sunviva. Everything else is a bonus.
Didn't expect that the taste was so exceptional for the small yellow one.

Greetings Thomas

Here is a brief interim report.
(I can't say much about Phytophthora resistance yet, as there is hardly any present.)

This year has been extraordinary; the last frost was on May 15, 2026, followed by a cool spell.
After that, temperatures reached up to 38°C, accompanied by dry conditions.
Outdoors: Overhead irrigation via sprinklers (new this year, fortunately) and a thick layer of mulch.
In the greenhouse: Drip irrigation and a thick layer of mulch.
It was still a difficult season.
Ripening in the greenhouse was 17 days later than usual. Then a heavy flush all at once, followed by very little production now.
Ripening outdoors was 7 days later than usual. Fruit size was smaller.
On the other hand, most of the plants have never been bigger!?
For the first time, blossom-end rot appeared more frequently—both outdoors and in the greenhouse.

- Hot Streak F4
- Damsel F1
- Honey Moon F1
Weak growth this year. Small fruit.
- Hot Streak F4
Only one plant looks good (approx. 1.5m tall with reasonably sized fruit); the others likely couldn't cope with this year's extreme conditions.

- Primabella x Bulgarian Giant Tomato F3
Most plants are compact and vigorous, though smaller than usual; tomatoes are smaller than last year.
Due to the small number of small tomatoes, this might be a dead end. However, all outdoor tomatoes are smaller this year.

- MM F5 Cocktail
Similar to Primabella; good resistance, good crack resistance. More vigorous growth at the beginning.

- Primabella x Sunviva F3 (small yellow)
Many plants with good to very good flavor; crack-resistant!
Many show vigorous growth like Sunviva; looking good.
Tomato size varies from small cocktail to medium-sized cocktail. Some are slightly elongated. Firm, crisp, crack-resistant, sweet, aromatic.
Resistance/vitality looks good so far.
Making a selection will be difficult, as there are so many good plants!

- Primabella x Sunviva F3 (red)
Good, robust flavor; vigorous growth; most are closer to cherry size. Crack-resistant. Aromatic.

- Cerise x Primabella F1
Good flavor, sweeter than Primabella; vigorous plant; not entirely crack-resistant, but okay for an F1.

- GoS x Primabella F2
Flavor good/okay.
Small round ones, elongated Romas, heart-shaped tomatoes, beefsteaks—a bit of everything; exciting to see what else develops.
Crack resistance is mostly okay.
Blossom-end rot occurred; the worst plant has already been discarded.
3 plants with mini beefsteak tomatoes were also discarded.

- Wapsipinicon Peach x Primabella F2
Interesting variability: red cocktail, yellow cocktail, pink fuzzy, pale yellow fuzzy...
Unfortunately, many are prone to cracking; several have already been discarded.
The soft texture characteristic of WP is also frequently present, especially when fully ripe; this is tricky,
as some also have a green shoulder that delays picking maturity and
deteriorates fruit quality.
A few are somewhat better; careful selection for fruit quality is necessary
if resistant plants are to be found.

- Dancing with Smurfs x Primabella
Tomatoes with a wide range of shades from both parents; flavor good; unfortunately, not all are crack-resistant.
Hopefully, there's a colorful, resistant, and crack-resistant one in the mix!

- Chiapas Wild Tomato
Very susceptible to disease; discarded several weeks ago.

- Cocktail Crush F1
Very vigorous plant, not too large; some fruits lean more towards salad tomato size; flavor okay; not entirely crack-resistant.

- Brunito F1
Beautiful but very hard fruits; not Phytophthora-resistant, but surprisingly showed complete Alternaria resistance. - Definitely suitable for breeding in Alternaria resistance.

Off-topic:

- Campari F4 – sweet, good flavor; extreme growth.

- Buffalosteak Yellow F3 – pineapple type, but much more vigorous.

- Tomimaru Muchoo F2 – one with a watermelon flavor when fully ripe—*fully, fully, fully* ripe, which takes a long time.

- Sweeterno F2 – sweet salad tomato; good.

Too much nitrogen leads to very vigorous vegetative growth of tomatoes but late flowering and fruiting and less fruit production.

Yes, too much nitrogen is probably the the biggest problem here,
mainly in the Greenhouse, much mulch and some fertilizer.
This and the crazy weather.

Hi Thomas,
    I've largely taken my eye off the ball regarding Blight Resistance. ... I haven't been affected since 2023!
    I am planning to raise some F1s with 'Endurance' next year, so hopefully, with that, and a bit of 'Latah' in my hybrids, that will be enough should Blight put in a re-appearance.

Tim DH

Hi Tim,

Late Blight is present here every Year. There were always a few plants which were infected heavily.
On the other hand, i now have tested most possible resistant variety's and are at a point were
the majority of plants are at least partially resistant. Therefore i have no big outbreaks and
can concentrate more on other Resistances, Taste, Optics and Cracking. Without a base Resistance to
Late Blight i wouldn't be able to do this!
For me the Priorities are:
- Blight Resistance ,mostly achieved but still most important
- Cracking, In the field cracking can cause up to 90% loss (her atm after 4 days of rain) ,mostly
    achieved but in Crossings (many Primabella x Wapsipicon Peach) it can
    be naturally a Problem
- Taste
- other Resistances (Brunito F1 Alternaria)
- Optics
The Discovery that Brunito F1 is 100% Resistant to Alternaria (here atm !) is very
interesting, never saw this before. Not a single yellow leave! On top it has Late Blight but
the infection is slowed down, also interesting.
Sadly the Fruits are really hard and taste is also not good.

The Achievement and understanding of Late Blight Resistance gives me now the freedom to think
about other traits to cross in actual varieties.

I have Endurance here in the Netherlands. We have had an extremely hot and dry summer.

Endurance has potato leaves and produces cocktail-sized fruit. The flavour is fairly ordinary. Unfortunately, after a long period of drought followed by heavy rain this week, the fruits have proved to be quite prone to cracking.

For comparison, fruits from Rondobella do not crack under the same conditions.

My plan with late blight breeding since it is currently a very rare occurrence here is to occasionally make crosses with known resistant lines. I attempted a new cross with the PH5 currant tomato and I added a free Galahad F1 plant to my garden this year. The older crosses with Galahad F1, Purple Zebra F1, and the PH5 currant are all included in various lines though often in dilute forms. For instance number 303 is 1/4 PH5 currant and 583 is 1/8 Purple Zebra. It would be interesting to have a rare late blight infestation or have someone with consistent late blight problems grow out some of my lines on an organic farm somewhere someday or do some MAS when some of these lines are stable. I don't think I have any lines stable that would make sense to do MAS with yet but if the OSSI grants program continues I'll work harder to develop some. I have the PH5 and PH3 currants so I would probably do something like cross those both with Purple Zebra and then cross those together and with some of the lines like 303 and 583.