The original F1s for the People! thread has stretched to over 200 posts, which I reckon is a bit much for anyone new to wade through. So I thought I'd write a summary and start a new thread.
Project Premises.
F1 tomato plants can offer growers advantages arising from increased vigour.
Commercial F1 tomato seed is expensive and growers are dependant on the company which produces the seed.
Creating F1 seed is not difficult, if only one knew which of the thousands of Open Pollinated varieties to use as parents.
Project Aims
To research and publish proven good parent pairs.
To promote the advantages of 'Home made' F1 plants.
Getting Involved
If you are not confident about making crosses, choose a Potato Leaf mother and a Regular Leaf father. Because Potato Leaf is a recessive trait, its dead easy to raise a few seedlings and check the leaf type. Regular leaf seedlings from a potato leaf mother proves that a cross has been made.
There is loads of advice on the WEB about making crosses.
Choose some Open Pollinated varieties which you like. Cross them and try the F1s. (You are more likely to get hybrid vigour in your F1s if the parent varieties come from different breeding programs.) If you get an outstanding F1, name and publish it.
Current State of Play
There are currently three recommended F1 recipes:
Craig's Gift F1 parents Cherokee Purple and Lillian's Yellow recommended for Taste creator Craig Lehoullier
Potemkin F1 parents Imur Prior Beta(m) and Latah(p) recommended for blight resistance, early, creator TimDH
Raspberry Beret F1 parents Vorlon(m) x Pervaya Lyubov(p) recommended for Productive early outdoor taste. creator Maf
More details of each of these can be gleaned from the original F1s for the People! Thread. If any more get recommended this year I'll add them to this 'First Post' list.
If the F1 is european its ok?
How much seeds minimum are required?
With customs fees send it seed in us or uk seem a little expensive.
Other tip,If the F1 is between two parents with regular leaf he will growed more fast than the two parents.
3 ways hybrids are ok?
What carachtreistics do you searched?
If you want one of my better cross at the third génération was between canestrino di lucca x andine cornue
If you want you can seen the result growed in hydroponic grow
https://www.les-tomos.fr/viewtopic.php?p=135211#p135211
She also has a extrem root system
https://www.les-tomos.fr/viewtopic.php?p=117923#p117923
But she is not very tolerant at diseases
Hi Adrian,
The project isn't 'European', anyone can join in.
There is no requirement to send any seed anywhere. The project is essentially an exchange of ideas. Ideas have yet to attract customs fees!
The project is about F1s, so 3way hybrids are not possible.
Your F3 variety would need to be stabilised (F8+?) before you could use it to make F1s. It would also need to become internationally available for other people to re-create any F1 pairing you recommend.
For example, the three recommended recipes in #1 all use two internationally available parents, so any reader, anywhere in the world could re-create them.
Hope that's helpful
Tim DH
Two link or we can found the parents of my cross
https://www.tomatofifou.com/produit/andine-cornue/
https://kokopelli-semences.fr/fr/p/L0157-Canestrino-Di-Lucca
After MUCH cogitation, I've decided that the main focus of my F1s this year will be re-creating 'Craig's Gift'.
Given the trouble I've had in previous years with purchased seed not being true to type (AND Roland's experience in 2024) I've got both Cherokee Purple and Lillian's Yellow from two different sources.
As a side line (following some discussion on Tomatojunction) I've got interested in Vorlon, which was apparently stabilised from a cross between Cherokee Purple and Pruden's Purple. I wonder how Vorlon compares to the original F1? The thing about F1s is you CAN recreate the original, if you've got the parents. So hopefully, in 2027, I should be able to compare Vorlon to it's origin F1. (Tho' I've only managed to order PP from one source.)
Whilst I'm about it, I've got a random assortment of other OPs to add into the mix. Uluru Ochre, Goats Tit, Heart of Ashgabat and Rebel Starfighter Prime. If I make all the possible combinations that'll give me 21 F1s to try in 2027!
Apart from that I'll be trialling a few of last year's Cherry F1s and continuing to evaluate the previous season's Early Red F1s, (in the greenhouse and outdoors). I'm also going to trial some outdoor created F1s from a couple of years ago.
Tomorrow's (Monday's) overnight low is forecast to be 2oC, Tuesdays is 11oC! Thereafter the next ten days are 7oC or above... ... Time to risk planting some toms out is the greenhouse.
This year's first 'hitch' is rootstocks. I splashed out on 40 seeds, to make life easier, and only 11 came up! Fortunately I have plenty of experience of making them go further, but it is a faff. 16 successful grafts so far.
Second problem, untrue seed AGAIN. One of the Lillian's Yellow sources is giving me regular leaved seedlings. The Pruden's Purple likewise. I scrabbled around on the web and found another source for PP. The new seed is up, but not passed cotyledons yet. ... Here's hoping.
I love the idea of comparing Vorlon F1 with Vorlon OP.
Just wanted to mention that I'm growing an F1 this season of my Rodney (now stable) and Pervaya Lyubov, and you've inspired me to give it a proper grow and evaluate it as an F1 producer too, instead of small pot and fruit for seed only. It will be red but that's okay. Plants are up and looking vigorous.
I don't have a P.Lyubov growing to compare but I doubt it will rival Mazarini, which I've grown once before and was astounded at the fruit size and production. Mazarini must be stacked with fruit size genetics, which is why I want to try some crosses with it. Quite early for such a large fruit too. Another indeterminate to compare will be Rose.. This one a first for me, recommended for flavor and we'll see about production. I think it is about average for a beef, so I can draw some comparisons for weight of product among the three.
Hi Steph,
Good luck with your Rodney x Pervaya Lyubov F1.
I've not come across Mazarini, but Tatiana lists it. Sounds interesting.
The second packet of Pruden's Purple seed is giving me potato leaves, so, on the assumption that at least one of the Cherokee Purples is true, I should manage the Vorlon comparison next year.
I'm thinking I might call the original F1 'Vorl One'!
First surprise of the year. The F1 of Latah v Thai Pink Egg turns out to be determinate. Genetically I can't figure it out because TPE is indeterminate, and that trait should be dominant.
I chose to try TPE as a parent because I read a report suggesting it had some un-identified Late Blight resistance. (The original plant didn't do well for me, so the seed didn't get tried out, until this year, when I had a gap in the outdoor schedule.)
Perhaps your TPE seed was crossed with a determinate? Or are you growing multiple plants of the F1 and seeing a row of determinates?
I haven't grown Thai Pink Egg, but another thing is, seed sellers often misidentify determinate vs indeterminate plants. Still you would have noticed it when making your F1, right?
Tim, I'm so glad you piqued my curiosity about F1 bounty, because the RodneyxPervayaLyubov is doing amazing, Really good set of fruit, vigorous sturdy plants. Not close to ripe yet but one of the earliest to set.
Hi Steph,
I wish had the space to grow rows of things!
I'm growing two LatahXThaiPinkEgg. (One at each of my outdoor sites.) So statistically your suggested explanation for them being determinate is not impossible. If the original TPE itself was a cross between TPE and an unknown determinate, AND if the determinate gene was the same one as Latah has, then each seed would have a 50/50 chance of being determinate.
I'm still curious tho' because I wouldn't have thought that the fruit colour of TPE was dominant, so if it had outcrossed I would expect the original plant to be not true to type.
Either way, I don't have a better explanation! BUT.... It is all a bit academic, because unless LatahXTPE does something REMARKABLE in the flavour department, I'm not curious enough to pursue the matter any further. There are far too many other F1s out there to be trialled.
I'm glad RodneyxPervayaLyubov is working for you. Since your curiosity has been piqued AND rewarded, will you be trialling any other F1s in future?
Hey Tim,
Well for sure, if I have any OPxOP stable F1's I wouldn't pass it up.
I'm actually very curious about truss architecture and how that is expressed in an F1, because one of the features of RxPL is a sturdy, relatively small truss of 5-6 fruit, similar to the Rodney.
I'm looking at Mazarini with a branched very rambling truss, some of which will be dropped instead of setting, and wondering whether the sturdy truss gene would be consistently expressed in the F1.
So if I can get a cross opportunity for those two, I would give the F1 space for production as I did with this one, just to see how the truss pans out.
Ultimately it's all about the food, so if an F1 makes that easier I'm for it.
I have a bit of a problem with indeterminates, they just grow too big for my space and are way more work than determinates, requiring a ton of handling pruning tying etc. So any reproducible F1's are still likely to make way for selecting a determinate OP.
Also I have a habit of 'stirring the pot' as the growout goes along - if I see a trait missing which could be brought in from another plant I never hesitate to cross unstable lines. So the majority of F1's that come through here are not reproducible. They may still be worth the space for production reasons though! So I wouldn't count it out, especially if indets actually do turn out to be more resistant to Alternaria.
It is really nice to have bred a couple of stable parents, so for example if RxPL fulfills the promise of being tasty and extra productive, it might be worth growing at a farm here or in a greenhouse that's better designed for indets. And would be easy to produce the F1 seeds since Rodney is a staple for me while Pervaya Lyubov is a common grow for friends who are food producers.
Also if I can figure out the logistics of getting my stable varieties OSSI pledged, the F1's would be OSSI too, and if they help anyone to grow a food bounty in this stressed world, that would be a good thing.
Hi Steph,
I've also got interested in the genetics of truss architecture. One of the F1 ideas I'm pursuing is to try and raise the productivity of 'tasty' cherry tomatoes. Obviously, with cherry sized fruit, the truss configuration has a significant effect on production.
The multiflora trait (Barry's Crazy Cherry) appears to be recessive. Tatiana lists some interesting Multiflora, or multiflora like, varieties. The trait might come from Lycopersicon humboldtii in which case different Multiflora varieties (from different breeders) could have significantly different parentage, which would be good for making vigorous F1s (although there is a high frequency of Ildi lookalikes!) Also L. humboldtii might confer some useful disease resistance.
Like you, I think ''Ultimately it's all about the food '' and I've already set my heart on working with Early Red Bush F1s next year. ... but a Multiflora F1 trial is very tempting. .... That 'argument' should keep me amused this Autumn! (Oh, and I also fancy doing a Dwarf Tomato Project F1 trial. Because the DTP kept very good records, its easy to sort out varieties which are not significantly related.)
Hey Tim,
Link to a paper on compound inflorescence:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2586368/
I was looking at this recently WRT one of my indeterminate lines, iirc there are two genes that give the multiflora effect but one is more XX more flowers than the other.
I have a line of Stupice X Black Cherry that spontaneously turned up multiflora (or similar) in the F3. Apparently there are suppressor genes involved in keeping trusses small.
These plants ramble their trusses and produce up to about 40 fruit trusses in large containers: the one I have growing this year in a 6-7 gallon pot has only set about 14 fruit per truss, but the architecture is there, the rambling branching often with a leaflet on the end and perfectly willing to put out another stem with buds as long as resources are available.
I see the large truss as another strategy for 'short season' fruit production. Basically if your season is cut short you already have a good number of fruit there.The loading works well for small fruit - but I always select for high set of blossoms because when our weather turns foul and grey a load of dropped blossoms is a maintenance curse - they just place mold everywhere they landed. I'm finding this line pretty good with a small fraction of blossoms dropped vs mostly set.
I am growing (new to me this year) Lime Green Salad, a dwarf determinate from Tom Wagner, and the truss architecture on this plant is beautiful. Large trusses that are splayed out and somehow self supporting tendency. I don't have a full set on this plant (seed came from Florida so no epigenetic tweaks in place) but I am quite hopeful about its ability to adapt. Made a couple of crosses to it, and super pleased with how easily it takes on the mother role. Anyway, one of those crosses is my indeterminate Stupkce/BlkCherry line with the large cluster, so I'm super curious to see how that may pan out with the large but regular cluster trait.
I am thinking to select for determinate but weed out the dwarf trait, only because they are metabolically slower and suboptimal for a short and low energy season (we do have those). What do you think?
Hi Steph,
Thanks for the link. I read the Abstract and Discussion (and some of the bits inbetween), but I think most of it went over my head!
One of the things I liked about Barry's Crazy Cherry was that the first truss was absolutely massive, and it was still flowering/fruiting at the end of the season. (Subsequent trusses were progressively smaller.) This concentration of continuous fruiting lower down appeared to limit the plants upward mobility. And, as you say, its good for short seasons.
The hybrids I've trialled so far, with BCC as a parent, have gone the other way, slowly increasing in truss size up the plant. They have a modest amount of branching, but nothing like BCC.
As mentioned further up this thread. My main focus this year is recreating Craig's Gift F1.
As a sort of insurance policy, I got both parents from two different sources.
One of the supposed Lillian's Yellows didn't even get to planting out since it wasn't potato leaved.
(The same thing happened with one of the Pruden's Purples.)
Now, as the fruit ripens, one of the Cherokee Purples is also off type. Very irritating, I'd used pollen from that plant in quite a few crosses and they'll all be useless.
Still, all is not lost, I have one fruit on a plant I believe to be Lillian's Yellow, which was pollinated by a plant I believe to be Cherokee Purple. ... Here's hoping it has plenty of seed in!
A (small) Cherokee Purple on the left and an imposter on the right.P8030002_edited.jpg
I got the same, a regluar leave Lillians Yellow :-\
That's very upsetting about the varieties not being kept true to type.
Happy Days!
The first fruit of what I believe to be Lillian's Yellow. Hopefully pollinated by what I believe to be Cherokee Purple!!
Aware of Roland's warning (back in 2023) that Lillian's Yellow is not particularly seedy, I've attempted the cross twice and the other fruit is also fattening up.
SO: I should have plenty of Craig's Gift F1 seed. I'll check that both lots ARE hybrid, by doing a seedling leaf test in the Autumn. Since Lillian's is potato leaf and Cherokee Purple is regular leaf, if the seedlings are regular it will prove they are hybrid.
Tim DH
Some variety low seedy can be very seedy with crossed fruits.
The fruits of andine cornue contains at normal time between 30 and 50 seeds by fruits.
I have found 140 seeds in the crossed fruit of andine cornue between canestrino di lucca x andine cornue.
Some varietys can giving the priority at the crossed fruit.
For my cross with pineaple, The crossed fruit was the more small of the bunch.
Getting to the exciting part of the season now, evaluating the new F1s.
These little fellows are SunvivaXTasteofParadiseF1 (I was trialling this outdoors as hopefully Blight resistant, however we haven't seen any Blight for a couple of years!) This is a good example of why I've got interested in truss architecture. What I suspect is that, because the fruit set is placing so little demand on the plant, the hybrid vigour is being expressed as excessive vegetative growth.
SunvXToP.jpg
For comparison, at the other end of the spectrum, a determinate F1 (LatahXPolarStar) I got 6kg from one plant of this cultivar last year and here it goes again! I think here the balance might have swung the other way, not enough vegetative growth! The focus of next year's F1 project will probably be creating more early outdoor determinates.
PSXLat.jpg