eOrganic Video on sourcing genetics

[William Schlegel]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uswT_C3oAzY&t=1302s

I am only a little ways into this. So can't say much about it but it looks like there will be info in it that might help with questions I have about what is ok to breed with.

Update: I finished it. I found the MTA discussion very interesting since I signed TGRC's for some tomato accessions.

Interesting. I still have specific questions about the plant material I am using. Maybe a few new ones.

I see some real value in using the seed savers exchange more as a germ plasm source.

[William Schlegel]

I am curious about some implications this video might have on the TGRC MTA.

[reed]

I'm following those talks very closely in case any of it might relate to my sweet potatoes. I'm not worried too much about it though because all of the original varieties I started with are old, in some cases very old heirloom varieties. I did a bit of trading early on and was disappointed at the time but now I'm more than pleased that none of the material I received back grew to even provide pollen, let alone make any seeds. It was mostly stuff returned to me from my own seeds but still after viewing these talks, I'm glad none of them grew.

I have all of my records and yearly documentation of my project so if I decide to pledge some or part of it OSSI I don't have to ask anybody. If I decide I want to do something else, I don't have to ask or pay anybody.

I was planning this year to do comparison trials with some more recent university releases. I'm rethinking that now on the off chance one of them might flower. I should probably contact those universities and see what their position on that might be. I'm pretty sure sexual breeding with a patented cloned crop is OK but still it might be the courteous thing to do.

[William Schlegel]

The most worrisome thing with tomatoes for me is the TGRC MTA. It could be the case that it might be a problem. However, it could also be the case that it isn't at all. It seems to have no section for derivatives. That could mean that it just doesn't cover derivatives at all. Which might be great.

Another thing the video makes me want to know is if say Purple Zebra F1 is really fair game to cross with. If it is, great! If not, maybe I should rethink that cross.

I could see say putting away some genetics or sending them back to TGRC if it isn't able to be shared freely through things like the Experimental Farm Network. That would be hard after growing them for years but it might be the right call.

It could also be the case that all the tomato genetics I have are fine to work with.

I wish I had paid more attention to this years ago.

The Dwarf Tomato Project mainly worked with heirlooms- that material is really safe to use. Only problem is it doesn't have any of the cool modern genetics.

Wild species should be really safe to use, and that might be why the TGRC MTA doesn't seem to have some of the sections mentioned in the video. Like how can you lay claim to wild germplasm?

I wish there was someone here who really understood these things and would advise us.

[reed]

I'm not at all familiar with TGRC so it took me a bit to track down that MTA. It is as they say, as clear as mud. Chances there would ever be a problem are probably extremely low but I'm one that worries about such stuff so choose to just avoid it completely.

One time I got some seed from GRIN that seemed fine but when they arrived there was an extra stamp on the package, something to the effect that while there was no patent the original depositor to GRIN may have other rights and I should contact that entity for clarification. I tried to return them to GRIN but they said to just destroy them, so I baked the seeds in the oven up to 250 degrees and put them back in the package, they are still around here someplace, just in case.

Same reasoning is why I also don't trade seeds internationally. I did that some years ago before I was aware of issues that might arise but even then, I very clearly and completely filled out the custom forms. I'm not taking part in any of that hide seeds in a birthday card crap. And I don't really want seeds from other countries, certainly not other continents.

I still gift some seeds occasionally but have drastically scaled back on trading seeds. I love Seed Savers Exchange, Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, Sandhill Preservation and a few others. I want some seeds from Row 7, but they are currently out of stock. I feel lucky to have gotten some of Carol Deppe's seeds while it was still possible to get them directly from her.

It sure would be nice if there was someone to advise on such issues, in the meantime or until figure it out on my own I'm just going to err on the side of caution. 


 

[Garrett Schantz]

Yeah, the whole potential of disease introduction from foreign diseases (normally easy to mitigate if you're careful) or the USDA kicking your door in and then destroying any seeds you have lying around and plants you have outdoors - not very cool or good.

I got seeds shipped over legally before, most of what their agreement said - was that its not their problem if the seeds come over and customs decides not to let them in.

Package was opened, meaning it was checked out - then there was a second sort of USDA envelope or whatever inside of that.

Some companies offer premiums to ship overseas.

Not a fan of paying high premiums, I got my cool little bush runner beans, so I'm happy.


I'd there's something I really, really want - yeah sure maybe I'll do something similar again.

Also got some other things from that seller.


Just to note, they offered a small lot of seeds thing - other necessary paperwork that they take care of on their side for around 45 dollars. I think rarepalmseeds does something similar.


Had to do an electric signature and whatnot on the site I got my stuff from.



In terms of the good old birthday card, aluminum foil hidden seeds or other tricks - no thanks. I very much like not having any plant material in sight destroyed without any way of saying "hey you don't have a warrant" or whatever else.


To my understanding, some post 9/11 laws allow those fellows to stomp over and do this.




I've done a few GRIN agreements that I'll mention them in articles or whatever if I use their germaplasm in any way. I'd also have to mention future offspring with their germaplasm in it.

I don't mind doing that.

Did some quick scans over things, and that's all they wanted.

Different stations seem to vary slightly on what they want in terms of that stuff. And, some stations auto declined me, others were willing to send me seed over.

In some cases multiple stations lorded over some of the same species because they had older stuff that was logged way back when. Those guys are either happy to get rid of that old stuff, or have a "pry it out of my hands" attitude.

I do understand some people use them to try and obtain free seed.

[Steph S]

Do you have a link to the MTA from TGRC?

I also never thought about these issues when I started breeding.  TBH the patent issue was either very new or unknown to me, OSSI likewise, and no knowledge about MTA's or PVP rights either.  It didn't dawn on me then that someone could prohibit you from using a plant in breeding.
Only when I read through the pledging process, I realized that the parent material had to be not only named but searched to determine the rights that might apply.  Germplasm from Russia and Eastern Europe was important to me for hardiness and earliness in tomatoes, and I used what I could obtain with no thoughts about are these heirlooms or CV's, and who bred them if they are commercial varieties.  So when I looked into the varieties I used, I found that some important genetics in my projects are commercial - for example Zolotoe Serdtse is an older cv from Aelita.  There are a number of these seed houses in Eastern Europe that still follow the international model of PVP, and employ breeders to offer new OP's to the public and farmers.  This is a legitimate model providing employment to breeders or allowing the independent breeder to be compensated through deals with these companies to distribute their seeds.  Johnny's would be an example of the same model as it exists in the US.  Not the same thing as utility patents used by the big five.

Anyway, when you think about the ethics of repatriating your work, it makes no sense to return a new OP to this company or its breeders, which then prohibits them from using the descendant OP for further breeding with reasonable compensation through PVP.  The exclusive right of sale or seed distribution in PVP for a limited time is not heinous or unfair.  It's perfectly reasonable to ensure a small reward for the effort, and it's good for breeding to keep the smaller seed houses and the PVP model alive.

Meanwhile, it becomes a big issue to scrutinize ones germplasm for an OSSI project.
I guess the same constraints apply if you're planning to use PVP to pay for your work.
I have only thought about use value for breeding effort, in the past. So if any past projects passes the test, it's a happy coincidence.   

I have a seedy past, full of international greeting cards, swaps of unnamed or accidentally crossed or mislabeled seeds of unknown origin, whose accidental bee crosses keep me amused. Thus entirely fulfilling the definition and profile of "amateur". 

[William Schlegel]

Found out today that TGRC derivatives are not subject to the MTA. Which is cool!

[AndrewB]

Found out today that TGRC derivatives are not subject to the MTA. Which is cool!

Woo!!

[William Schlegel]

https://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/mta.aspx

TGRC MTA link Steph requested. Though now I know it doesn't apply to derivatives. I have trouble with the legalese but I thought that might be the case when I watched the video and Michael mentioned they usually have a section on derivatives and this doesn't. I think it is mainly to protect TGRC from any liability from any of several scenarios. Then I emailed TGRC and asked and they said it does not apply to derivatives. Which is basically one of the steps they recommend in the video. Ask the source if it is usable as breeding material. 

I think one obvious exception is older varieties and heirlooms.