Where to start with tps?

[Kadence Luneman]

I gave in and ordered some tps seed from cultivariable...
Tetraploid, reds
Tetraploid, wide mix
All domesticated
Clancy outcrosses

I'm considering in the spring getting some seed potatoes locally. To compare to seed started. And I'll probably start seed from just one set of seed. Trial it and see where I want to take it. Initial thoughts...

- compare seed potato grown to seed grown
- select best seed grown, keep tubers to propagate the next year?
- did seed potato grown make berries? Keep some tubers to grow the next year and possibly keep seed from for future?

Any suggestion on which of the four might be better to try first?

[nathanp]

It will never be a fair or accurate comparison if you are comparing seed grown potato plants to tuber grown potato plants.  For an accurate comparison, you will need to grow the seed grown plants in their second year from tubers, with other tuber grown plants. 

For yield, seed grown potato plants only rarely will have yields approaching tuber grown plants, and even if they do, it is the exception that may or may not follow the seedling when it is grown from tubers.

It usually isn't until year two that you have an idea of whether a tuber grown from a seedling will be worth keeping, and it often takes another year or two beyond that year to either confirm that or not.

Growing from TPS is best approached as a means to develop seed tubers to try out in a second year as tuber clones.  Growing them as an annual will nearly always result in disappointment if you are expecting anything approaching a reasonable yield, compared to tuber grown plants. 

[nathanp]

 If you are most interested in plant fertility and ability to produce berries, the Cultivariable mixes will give you a very good mix of fertile plants as you will find.  Bill does much of his breeding work using fertile parents, so much of his work results in higher fertility levels and high berry setting. 

If you are looking for seed potatoes that are commercially sold, this is a list compiled a few years ago of frequently available clones that are male fertile and will set berries

https://opensourceplantbreeding.org/forum/index.php/topic,368.0.html

[Diane Whitehead]

I would try them all as they are very slow-growing.

[Adrian]

tryed the last year it is very slow and sensitive.The slugs eaten the plants some months after the germination.
Very thin plants.of memory the variety was "Désirée".
I was put the seedling planter at shadow a winter for get a good germination with my strawberrys seedlings.

[Kadence Luneman]

Thanks all!
For comparison I meant more like, did tuber grown commercial and tps started all do good/do bad? Did one set do much better/worse? Was it just a bad weather year for potatoes overall?
That way at least if something fails or looks much worse I'll have something to compare to not just hey maybe I'm bad at starting tps the first time.

I know the tps started will not produce as much tubers as commercial tuber started. I'm expecting a range of variations, totally genetic grab bag. It'll be a fun surprise. And if I can find seed potatoes locally from the list (thanks for linking it) I will be interested in trying some hand pollinating. I've been working through reading the blog posts and articles on Cultivariable to learn more.

I'm thinking on it and considering for the first year the tps grown plants I will grow out and select them, then keep their tubers to grow out the following year.
- plant hardiness. I'm pretty low work, or at least efficient work, so plants need to fit with how my garden is.
- taste. Since I've only had store potatoes this could get interesting, haha.
- yield. This would be determined in second year plants from tuber.
- note what plants are early (have tubers at planting out) and what are late.

For simplicity I am thinking of going for recessives to start. White skin and flesh. If I select only those plants to grow tubers the following year then all plants will be full recessive for white skin and flesh and I can focus on selecting for other things.
I'm thinking of starting with the "all domesticated" seed. I don't think that diploids will produce tubers for me since day length puts them the same time I'm watching for possible early frost. But any diploids will still be plants to learn about growing potatoes and the tetraploids can be my first selections. Berries can be harvested and go into stash for future use, not lose the genetics. And the other three I bought can be stashed too. Revisit them after growing out my selected tubers and seeing how it's going.

[Kadence Luneman]

I haven't seen anything about this so maybe not a thing.. Could diploids be tricked into starting to grow tubers buy artificially giving them 12 hours of dark?

In sheep some large facilities will have fully enclosed buildings that they keep the sheep in confinement. The lights are set on a timer to mimic fall, shorter and shorter days. This can help trick the ewes body into thinking now it's time to get ready to cycle and breed. Even though it's actually not that time of year.

So I'm curious if it's been tested? Could you grow diploids in pots like on a cart maybe.. And in like end of July you roll the cart in the garage/shed whatever to darkness. Then bring it out in the morning to give it at least 12 hours of dark. Would you be able to do it for a while, kick start the plant growing tubers, and then go back to leaving it out? Then you'd have August and September (and Oct til freezing) for it to grow tubers.

[reed]

I'm also in zone 6, next door in Indiana. I take a basic, survival of the fittest attitude about gardening and potatoes from TPS were a total flop for me. I had lots of beautiful flowers but in three years trying, I harvested a total of two berries and a small bowl of tiny potatoes.

Not to be discouraging, just a heads up on why I think mine failed. Basically, I think it just gets too hot and dry and the sun is too intense. I considered putting up a shade structure and being more conscientious on watering but instead abandoned them in favor of easier crops.

I hope you have much better success than did I and look forward to seeing your reports about it.

 

[nathanp]

Could diploids be tricked into starting to grow tubers buy artificially giving them 12 hours of dark?

First, not all diploids are daylength sensitive.  Many are long day adapted.  Though if you have mixes involving diploids, you will probably have plants that are across the entire spectrum.

Second, you could potentially do that with short day adapted potatoes, but would need to do as you suggest or use heavy shade cloth of some kind to eliminate sunlight over 13 hours of the day.  I'm not sure how practical that is or is not.  Many years I just dig my diploid TPS seedlings at the end of September.  That helps me evaluate ones that are obviously short day adapted as they are just starting to set tubers.  Long day adapted ones would have larger tubers by that point.  I would guess this is simpler than trying to move containers twice every day.

With that said, I find the difficulty with diploids in particular is heat and dry weather.  They do not seem to respond well to dry weather, and heat complicates that and makes it worse.  In situations where I can provide adequate weekly watering throughout the hottest stretches of the summer, they do much better. I grew some diploid seedlings this year in my zone 4 location for the first time this year, and was shocked how much better they did due to the regular rainfall there.  My diploid seedlings at my zone 7a location took a brutal beating this year.  Usually it is bad, this year was especially bad due to a town water ban.  Tetraploids seem much better adapted overall to such conditions. 

If you have not grown TPS before, I would encourage you to grow out your least valuable TPS first until you get the hang of it.  A common experience, like my first year, is to make multiple mistakes that result in degrees of failure.  And it is better to fail with something you don't care as much about as with something precious to you.

As for which to grow out, from a perspective of which will give you the most useful tubers, I would rank them in this order:

   1 Clancy outcrosses - this will give you the most stable mix as they have the narrowest genetic base so it will more predictably give you tubers more like what commercial types are like
   2 Tetraploid, reds - a narrow base in regard to color, except for occasional outcrosses, but will be mostly reds and whites.
   3 Tetraploid, wide mix - will give you the greatest mix of results for tetraploids
   4 All domesticated - the widest base, hence the most unpredictable and not all tetraploids

[Kadence Luneman]

I'm also in zone 6, next door in Indiana. I take a basic, survival of the fittest attitude about gardening and potatoes from TPS were a total flop for me. I had lots of beautiful flowers but in three years trying, I harvested a total of two berries and a small bowl of tiny potatoes.

Not to be discouraging, just a heads up on why I think mine failed. Basically, I think it just gets too hot and dry and the sun is too intense. I considered putting up a shade structure and being more conscientious on watering but instead abandoned them in favor of easier crops.

I hope you have much better success than did I and look forward to seeing your reports about it.

 

Thanks for the warning! I was kind of thinking about it from what I'm seeing about starting them. The weather here is so varied that I was expecting to have some kind of problems to figure out. Good to be forewarned though.
I'm considering doing some in the ground and some in big pots. We have fairly good annual rainfall here but depending on the year we can have no real measurable rainfall from some time in June through Aug or Sept.
Sounds like I should think on it and will need a regular watering for them when the rain stops coming regularly.

I was thinking with our long days that maybe I could plan the potatoes to be next to something that will give them some shade for the noon heat.

[Kadence Luneman]

First, not all diploids are daylength sensitive.  Many are long day adapted.  Though if you have mixes involving diploids, you will probably have plants that are across the entire spectrum.

Ahh! Ok this is beginning to sink in now.

Second, you could potentially do that with short day adapted potatoes, but would need to do as you suggest or use heavy shade cloth of some kind to eliminate sunlight over 13 hours of the day.  I'm not sure how practical that is or is not.  Many years I just dig my diploid TPS seedlings at the end of September.  That helps me evaluate ones that are obviously short day adapted as they are just starting to set tubers.  Long day adapted ones would have larger tubers by that point.  I would guess this is simpler than trying to move containers twice every day.

With that said, I find the difficulty with diploids in particular is heat and dry weather.  They do not seem to respond well to dry weather, and heat complicates that and makes it worse.  In situations where I can provide adequate weekly watering throughout the hottest stretches of the summer, they do much better. I grew some diploid seedlings this year in my zone 4 location for the first time this year, and was shocked how much better they did due to the regular rainfall there.  My diploid seedlings at my zone 7a location took a brutal beating this year.  Usually it is bad, this year was especially bad due to a town water ban.  Tetraploids seem much better adapted overall to such conditions. 

Ya I didn't think it would be very fun to do, I was more curious if it was likely to work. Since I know it can be done for sheep. Even for them it's like, ya you can do it but it's a pain and no one does it unless it's at a large scale to pay for the building and light control etc. So understandable it would likely be the same with plants.
Interesting. So any diploids I get in the one mix are the most likely to die off in summer heat. Got it.

If you have not grown TPS before, I would encourage you to grow out your least valuable TPS first until you get the hang of it.  A common experience, like my first year, is to make multiple mistakes that result in degrees of failure.  And it is better to fail with something you don't care as much about as with something precious to you.

As for which to grow out, from a perspective of which will give you the most useful tubers, I would rank them in this order:

   1 Clancy outcrosses - this will give you the most stable mix as they have the narrowest genetic base so it will more predictably give you tubers more like what commercial types are like
   2 Tetraploid, reds - a narrow base in regard to color, except for occasional outcrosses, but will be mostly reds and whites.
   3 Tetraploid, wide mix - will give you the greatest mix of results for tetraploids
   4 All domesticated - the widest base, hence the most unpredictable and not all tetraploids

Good points! That is right along with what I was thinking as well. Start with the least precious, the all domesticated mix. Losing the diploids isn't that big a deal and if any do make it that'll be interesting. And it has the widest range of genetics so whatever does well I should end up with a range of traits to work with. In hindsight I probably should have left that to the tetraploid wide mix and gotten a different fourth option.. oh well, already ordered. There's always next time.

[reed]

I didn't have any problem starting the seeds. I put some in flats inside and direct sowed some, they all germinated pretty good and not much difference between the two. They also transplanted easily, even when very small. They grew well in the early part of the season but by time they started blooming good it was getting hot and dry. The flowers just dropped off and soon the vines dried up. Just an occasional watering didn't help and neither did shielding them with tall pole beans and corn to the south & west.

I don't have a spot for it, but I wonder if a set up where they only get morning sun, north of a big building or off some distance from tall trees might provide a more productive microclimate. Short of that I figured a shade structure and routine watering was the only thing that might work. 

[nathanp]

So any diploids I get in the one mix are the most likely to die off in summer heat. Got it.

You probably won't lose all of them, but they will suffer if you don't provide regular watering. I think regular watering is the key to keeping them growing through the heat and dry periods.