Breeding a new cold frame pea

[AndrewB]

https://www.experimentalfarmnetwork.org/project/35

I just started a new project page on EFN. Feel free to join in.

[AndrewB]

Andrew, I just responded to your message about Large Manitoba, before I saw this. I know it is described as short but mine were easily 3 feet long. They are not a pole pea, but neither are they really short in my experience. Also my conclusion is that a lot of the heights given for peas are for when they first start to flower, and then they keep going from there... sometimes for quite a distance.

good to know. Another collaborator ordered some from Mandy and is sending me seeds. I'll try to plant some to find out, but It's good to know it may not be an extra dwarf.

The others I know of that are extra dwarf peas are:
Tom Thumb
Mighty Midget
Orange-Pod
Earligreen (bred in Manitoba)

I'm going to try and plant all of these and see which ones are actually the shortest and which ones are the best to use for breeding. Theoretically Tom Thumb will be the shortest, but it has stubby pods and round starchy seeds. Mighty Midget still kinda has stubby pods but has wrinkled seeds. Orange-pod has round starchy seeds, pods might be slightly less stubby. Earligreen I've never grown before, but it has wrinkled seeds.

Tom Thumb is attractive for possibly the shortest height, but Mighty Midget and Earligreen may already be slightly more edible.

[Steph S]

Just read this and your project description - great project!   
I will join next season if things go well with my old vegetable plot which I've been trying to get into shape to grow something.  Many wireworms last year.
Planning to do some cover crops including peas over there this season.
I'm assuming the AWP and Trapper types can be sown a bit earlier - will use row cover anyway.  Green sprouts are extremely popular with the wildlife early in the season.

I wonder if the dwarfs could be grown just under row cover here, early spring.
It would certainly be a good environment to select for cold tolerance.

Except for Sugar Sprint, all the dwarfs I have presently are soup peas.  Except Kent Blue being a dual purpose snow.  Not wrinked seeds.
Sugar Sprint has many of the genes that you're interested in.  IDK, is it patented or is there any restriction on breeding with it?  I have seeds left if you want them.
I just posted in the other thread, about it losing all its flowers after  surviving a month of cold stress.
If the genes for late flowering are just linked by proximity, not dependent on some biochemical effect that governs both, then you would have to break the linkage.  That'd be fun to do.    Breeding under stress, crossing unstable generations, may help.  I mean, to increase your chances and reduce the numbers of plants to find the broken link where early flowering and cold resistance are combined.

[AndrewB]

Regular dwarf peas seem to grow between 2ft and 3ft tall and seem to have the recessive le gene.

The extra dwarf peas seem to be under 1ft tall. I imagine they have le and possibly another gene like lm or cry. I've heard terms like "microdwarf" "crytodwarf or cryptodwarf" and "microcryptowarf". I am not sure whether these terms apply or not. But in any case it does not really matter. The point is that the extra dwarfs probably have two recessive genes for super short stature. Crossing a super dwarf with a dwarf pea should still be better than crossing with a tall pea.

I'm hoping to convert my "large podded" strain (Green Beauty, Bijou, & Carouby de Maussane) into a dwarf pea. It is currently a tall pea. My favorite variety thus far, but would be better shorter.

I haven't grown Kent Blue, but from what I've heard about it I suspect it is closely related to Dwarf Gray Sugar. Dwarf Gray also does not have wrinkled seeds, but the pods are nice and low fiber and could probably be a good soup pea. I really like it's short stature and is one of the shorter dwarfs I've grown.

I've never worked with AWP before, and I personally don't want to plant them as winter cover crops here because I do not want to replicate the massive weevil problems they have in Montana, Idaho, Washington, and North Dakota. Looks like it may also be a huge problem in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba. (https://www.uaex.uada.edu/publications/pdf/FSA1095_final.pdf) But it seems that AWP have the Hr gene for day-length sensitive flowering. So you are right that that may pose an issue.

https://sitecore.uidaho.edu/-/media/UIdaho-Responsive/Files/cals/departments/eppn/graduate-research/Re-inventing-Austrian-Winter-Pea.pdf

https://kingsagriseeds.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Lynx-Winter-Peas.pdf

[B. Copping]

What kind of maximum height are you thinking of?
There are a reasonable number of shelling varieties in the 15-18" range...

[AndrewB]

I'm in the process of designing a small winter cold-frame with an appropriate angle for my area (about 30 degrees) to capture maximum solar energy in winter. I'm not done with the design, but I'm thinking a 1ft tall pea would be perfect. I'm not done with my cold-frame design, but it looks like the back side will be 2ft tall.

For other people who might be growing in a poly tunnel other dwarf peas between 2ft and 3ft might be fine, but I am not considering a poly tunnel as a "cold-frame". Both can be used in winter, and I know it is a matter of semantics, but that is the definition I am going with.

As far as they currently stand, most of the extra dwarfs are about 1ft tall but are not very useful. A few like Mighty Midget and Earligreen have wrinkled seeds, but I don't think they are very productive. I'm thinking crossing them with others like 'Canoe' that have 12 peas per pod or something like 'Quad' which are a determinate multi-flowered variety could dramatically increase productivity. Alternatively or in conjunction the AWP have a low branching habit which makes them more productive because they basically have 3 stems where they can set more pods from what I've read.

[Steph S]

Hmm I just remembered Norli, which didn't seem much more than a foot to me, but I checked and it says "20 inches".   One thing about them that might be nice in a cold frame pea, is that they regrow after being cut down.  But that might be a more common feature of peas than I thought.

[AndrewB]

Hmm I just remembered Norli, which didn't seem much more than a foot to me, but I checked and it says "20 inches".   One thing about them that might be nice in a cold frame pea, is that they regrow after being cut down.  But that might be a more common feature of peas than I thought.

Regrowth after cutting is a trait I'd like to explore more. I think some peas do it and others might not. But one year I cut a bunch of spring sown peas down thinking they were dead and by late summer some had regrown and set pods in fall. But only a few since I had also ripped up most of the others roots out. Wish I had cut them all that year.

Haven't yet gotten a chance to really evaluate for regrowth ability,  but I'm highly interested in it.

[B. Copping]

From what I understand, wrinkle seeded peas are more vulnerable to soil diseases (damping-off, etc.)
For that reason, varieties for early planting, like Alaska, have round seeds, and a short window as shelling peas.
Tannins and anthocyanins are supposed to provide some protection to the seeds.

Perhaps crossing wrinkle seeded to a variety with M or F/Fs ?
Your wrinkle seeded line that you are working on with the murex coloured testa from Biskopens might be useful here...
Do they have the anthocyanin dots under the murex colour?

Tom Thumb could be more useful as a foliage variety, if it passes a taste test.

[Jeremy Weiss]

From what I understand, wrinkle seeded peas are more vulnerable to soil diseases (damping-off, etc.)
For that reason, varieties for early planting, like Alaska, have round seeds, and a short window as shelling peas.
Tannins and anthocyanins are supposed to provide some protection to the seeds.

That actually makes a lot of sense. Wrinkled peas get that way from having trouble converting sugars into starches. Therefore they have a higher sugar content, which probably makes them a better host environment for fungi and bacteria that starchier peas.) 

I am assuming that "murex colored" (which I can't seem to find a definition of online) is the same as what I was taught to call 'marmorated", that is, that streaky mixture of greens, tans and browns that looks a lot like military camouflage.) 

[B. Copping]

Murex coloured...it is a reference to the murex snails that produce imperial purple.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple

Biskopens (aka Bishop's) is well named because of the seed coat is similar to the purple that bishops would/do wear.
It does not seem to be an anthocyanin, since if you look closely, you can see the anthocyanin dots as darker spots.

Picture of seeds from Andrew Barney's Dwarf Grey Sugar x Biskopens:

[Jeremy Weiss]

Oh THAT makes sense. I was thinking in terms of the shell, not it terms of the dye (as in the Wikipedia, I'm used to calling the dye Tyrian Purple, or Tyrian Plum).

And technically, that shade of purple bishops wear is called amaranth (and no, as far as I know the word has no relation to the grain/green.)

And to be honest I should have known better. I know of only one pea that is both wrinkled and mottled (Piselle d'le Ago) and that is very, very rare.

[B. Copping]

Don't some of the amaranths produce dyes?
I'm thinking of the variety Hopi Red Dye...

[Jeremy Weiss]

Yes, bthe color is named after the color of the amaranth flower (so I was wrong about no connection), or more accurately the color of the flower that at the TIME was called amaranth (we now know it as Celosia).

The dye itself, however, was traditionally obtained by the use of Brazil Wood, I think, which actually pre-dates the discovery of the New World (the country is named after the wood, not vice versa).   

[AndrewB]

Winked seeds often have trouble germinating in cold soils probably for a variety of reasons. 1. They have less starch to rely on for germination and growing. 2. They are highly wrinkled which caused nooks and crannies where fungi, bacteria,  water,  or nematodes could infiltrate easier. Perhaps they might also crack easier. 3. They have higher sugar which might cause more pest issues.

Layla S. is working on crossing her extra wrinkled bsg mutant peas with colored seeded varieties I sent her to see if that helps germination and survival. I sent her people passion, some Biskopens hybrids, and black vilmorin peas.

The black peas and purple passion might be the U gene. Biskopens I'm still not sure what gene but it seems to behave as a recessive. I'm pretty sure the dots is a separate genre. I don't remember if these have dots or not. I guess it could be tannins instead of anthocyanins,  but im pretty sure they are anthocyanins. There are many different anthocyanin types and other genes could cause the spots and/or concentration in other areas.

But regardless, Layla is doing some crosses to evaluate.

I was thinking if growing in a cold frame that cold germination should not be as big an issue as you could presoak or pre germinate or the cold frame could be warmer than outside and most people plant winter crops in fall anyway while it is still warm.

There seem to be different strains of tom thumb around but I do not expect the foliage to taste good without the p and v genes for low fiber pods. There are other unknown flavor genes as well.

The new biskopens hybrids do not have the M gene for the marmorated coat (which I assume are tannins). But they still have the brick red color. Some are lighter in red color so it can vary. Perhaps that indicates more than one gene or color involved?