Beautifully Promiscuous and Tasty Tomato Project

[Arjan vD]

Well last year proved blight resitance is crucial here if I want to grow tomatoes outdoors.

[Arjan vD]

Then the Fuyu persimmon flavor stabilization, if possible, project. Though also with that line if I have enough plants, I think I want to sacrifice one to each of the other crossing blocks. It is just too good of a flavor (if it comes back) not to spread and cross with. Alternatively, just make some controlled crosses with it!

I hope you can stabilize that taste, I want to find something similar in the Wildlings I'm growing, thats why I plan to make a lot of seeds to increase the chance to find something special.

[William Schlegel]

I have very much grown an huge amount of Joseph Lofthouse's seed for essentially that same strategy you propose each year for the past five years. I have a tremendous amount built up. I felt like I was just working a step behind Joseph for years. Perhaps part of why I've started to diverge more and more with new side projects. I do think it is paying off though as since 2020 we have had tomatoes we can eat back from this and it has gotten really interesting. My top three selections in 2021 were very good tomatoes for eating.

My own tomato Mission Mountain Sunrise or MMS gave evidence of having very poor disease resistance last year for very common things like powdery mildew. In my main fields it does fine. On my parent's porch in Missoula it got powdery mildew pretty bad. I bet in a lot of your garden's it would curl up and die. Without selection pressure for disease resistance it is hard to breed for it. I am taking a step towards replacing MMS with its child a cross to Big Hill. Basically just a lot of prebreeding to get a good mother with some traits like potato leaves and exsertion that will make things easier to keep track of with crossing blocks in the future.

I will probably use the good flavored lines with interesting colors to back cross to interesting lines that don't have good flavor yet. Thus my interest in including one of the good flavored selections in each crossing block. Also I hope to learn from that if the Fuyu persimmon line is obligate outcrossing, mixed, or self compatible this year and actually iteratively in subsequent years.

It is a little daunting to look at my putative new crosses with LA2329 habrochaites and to think of the six or so generations and garden space needed going forward.

[AndrewB]

William and Joseph, (and others)

Can you give us a brief list of the lines / varieties that have the most interesting traits that one should give priority to?

Which lines have the interesting flavors?
Which lines have promiscuous flowers?
Which lines are your personal favorites?
Anything i missed?
How far along would you say this project actually is now at this point?

Hoping to get back into the swing of tomatoes this year especially this project. Made myself some make shift raised beds from some 17 gal. plastic bins to give myself extra planting space in case I need it for tomatoes.

Some of the new centerflors and multiflors from Peace Seeds / Peace Seedlings have wild tomato ancestry from Alan Kapuler's breeding. I might try to grow some of them as well.

[William Schlegel]

"Can you give us a brief list of the lines / varieties that have the most interesting traits that one should give priority to?"
R18 - I think I sent you some seed
XL- I think I sent you some seed
Salmon Bicolor- I sent you some seed
The One Fuyu Persimmon (unshared)
Little Pumpkins (unshared)
F1 LA2329 hybrids (unshared)
Though anything from 2020-2021 is way ahead of 2019 and earlier basically the BH x W4 cross that I grew out a small portion of in 2019 produced some big tomatoes in Joseph's larger garden- I only got wild types. The one's Joseph found and shares seed from in 2020 and 2021 have been amazing! I sent you seed for some of these. I selected heavily in 2021 for exserted and open flowers. A lot of closed flowers were present in 2021 in my lines probably because my main selection in 2020 was for bicolors. The 2020 XL red patch pollinated some of the bicolors so the occasional XL red descendent was interspersed in 2021. In 2021 my intentional XL red patch was in a different tomato block. I sent you some seeds from 2020 and 2021 that are in this category, and you may find something amazing in there if you grow enough of them! 

"Which lines have the interesting flavors?"
Of what I shared with you:
XL - sometimes a clean tasting delicious red slicer
Salmon Bicolor- clean taste no off flavors in 2021

Of what I didn't have enough seed to share with you for 2022:
The One Fuyu Persimmon flavored tropical no off notes
Little Pumpkins similar no off notes (5 seeds)

I plan to grow these last two out in a larger field to seed increase and also hopefully find out how much flavor segregation they have in 2022. Taste testers needed.


"Which lines have promiscuous flowers?"

R18- almost perfect habrochaites type flowers with maybe some penellii in there. But so far tastes terrible. Fuyu Persimmon x R18 is a logical cross to make.

Semi promiscuous flowers:
Salmon colored bicolor
Big Hill (domestic)
Exserted Orange (domestic)
Exserted Tiger (domestic)
Fuyu persimmon flavored

"Which lines are your personal favorites?"
Promiscuous x LA2329
R18
Fuyu Persimmon flavored
Little Pumpkins (only five seeds)

"Anything I missed?"

There is a huge potential to make new crosses with wild tomato species between the promiscuous tomatoes x Wild and between domestic tomatoes x wild. Also, between wild x wild with the more palatable wild species like Solanum pimpinillifolium and Solanum cheesemanii.

"How far along would you say this project actually is now at this point?"
Flavor and flower trait stabilization on some lines. Also, though I am basically starting over and finding that the project is indeed conducive to subsequent crosses with Habrochaites and probably penellii in regard to my plan to cross in LA2329 which I currently think is working based on cotyledon characters of recent germinates.
I would say potentially as little as this growing season for decent flower stabilization on the Fuyu persimmon line, but it really depends on how much flavor varies and the outcrossing rate of the selected mother for flavor. Her flowers were open and exserted so I would imagine she crossed some even if she was capable of selfish selfing. Depending on how things go some lines could be at about the same point Exserted Orange and Exserted Tiger are now at the end of the growing season. If stabilizing Exserted Orange and Exserted Tiger is a guide very soon. I think Salmon Bicolor could probably be stabilized but rather than stabilize it I might create a grex with the other open and exserted flower palatable tomatoes.


"Some of the new centerflors and multiflors from Peace Seeds / Peace Seedlings have wild tomato ancestry from Alan Kapuler's breeding. I might try to grow some of them as well."

I personally would consider those in the mental category of someone else's longer season domestic tomatoes. Fun to try, but not deserving of much garden space. I found a cross with something anthocyanin in Golden Tressette when we were exploring that germplasm a couple years ago. Just came with the seeds. Segregated wonderfully. I plan to grow one plant /clump of each of the peace seeds / peace seedlings varieties I've acquired both in this year and past. Maybe add the blue segregating offspring of Golden Tressette to a direct seeded grex. My experience with Golden Tressette was that it has what I refer to as modest stigma exsertion. Also, I think it did cross in my garden with likely your line of pimpinillifolium I need to grow out the F2 and double check. I got Geranium Kiss and yellow centiflor hypertress to try this year in seed trades. Probably anything at least modestly exserted is a good choice for a cross mother.

I feel about the same way about J & L Gardens Lee Goodwin's fun additions except the strain of Blue Ambrosia I got from him still has some of the best stigma exsertion I have seen and what I bred for in Exserted Tiger. Though the most interesting are his wild cross results. I got Wild Gem and Copper Currant to try in 2022. His Wild Child did great for me in 2020. However, the one plant I had of Weight in Gold didn't set for me in 2020. Dwarf Hirsutum cross is an interesting tomato but not super interesting.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Here is a summary of the seed lots that I kept in 2021 from the Beautifully Promiscuous and Tasty Tomato Project.

Name	Fruit Type	Description
Best of S35	Orange 2"	Early. Highly productive. Determinate. Closed canopy. Flavor is very nice, but not exotic tropical fruit. My favorite, even though flavor and flower type don't match project goals. Seeds collected from only the best plant. This line would be a great candidate for grow out for inclusion in a seed catalog, or for a market gardener.
Q-Orange	Orange, 2"	Early. Highly productive. Acting self-compatible. Mostly determinate with closed canopy.
Q-4 Orange	Orange, 2"	Acting self-incompatible. Mostly indeterminate and wispy.
Brushy Orange	Orange, 2"	A line that I am growing to explore it's shrubbery-type growth habit. Good flavor.
Q-Series	Orange, red, 2"	Early, productive. Sent to Experimental Farm Network. It contains seed from S35, Q-Orange, Q-4 Orange, and Brushy Orange.
Wildling	Red, orange, yellow, white	Contains seeds from all of the above families, plus other families from the bulk planting. Mixed breeding system. The most genetically diverse line that I offer. Sent 1 ounce of seed to Experimental Farm Network.
SI Potato Leaf	Red 1"	Self-incompatible. Potato leaved. Tiny flowers. Some orange fruits. Two fruits tested at 15% brix.
SI Persimmon	Netted 1"	The most amazing flavor from this project! The netted skin looked particularly unappetizing. Self-incompatible. Barely survived to make fruit.
Direct Seeded	Red/Orange ~1"	10,000 seeds were direct seeded. About 7 matured fruit. Mostly acting self-incompatible. I would love to reliably direct seed tomatoes.
Wild Species
Solanum cheesmaniae	green/yellow 3/8"	Multi-generational selection for easy germination. Only produced seed because it was grown in greenhouse.
Solanum galapagense	Orange, 1/4"	Multi-generational selection for easy germination, and adaptation to local conditions. /td]
Solanum habrochaites	Green 1/2" to 3/4"	A multi-year grex of many different families. May include back crosses from the promiscuos tomato project. Also collected seeds separately from the largest fruits, and the largest seeds from the largest fruits. (Looking for naturally occurring back crosses.)
LA2329	Green fuzzy 1/2"	Particularly resistant to insects. Planted with the general Solanum habrochaites grex.
Solanum pennellii	Green 3/8"-3/4"	Multi-generational selection for being able to grow in our native soils, and for larger fruits.
Solanum peruvianum	White/purple 3/4"	Collected from Mendocino County, California. Resistant to blight and irrigation with ocean water. Lovely flavor.
Interspecies crosses
SI x SI	Yellow, orange, 1"-1.5"	Self incompatible plants, descended from interspecies hybrids, cloned in 2020. They were crossed among themselves this growing season. Their pollen was used to make new interspecies crosses.
Pimpinellifolium X SI	Red 3/8"	Made for the sake of being an interspecies hybrid with a species that isn't yet part of the project. It may add tolerance to damp conditions, since it's native range is more humid.
SunSugar X SI	Orange 3/4"	We suspect that SunSugar has Solanum habrochaites as a recent wild ancestor.
Brad X habrochaites	Yellow 3/4"	An F1 hybrid. From a natural cross that was identified by a Xenia effect in the seed. The most vigorous tomato plant that I ever grew. This is the same type of cross that originally started this project in 2016. These were pollinated by wild type Solanum habrochaites.
[Brad X habro] X SI	Yellow 3/4"	Pollinated by elite lines from the promiscuous tomato project.
R18 X SI	Yellow 1"	R18 produced the largest flowers that I have seen in tomato plants. Crossed it with other self-incompatible tomatoes with large flowers.
Habrochaites BC2021	green	This population presumably has some back crossing to domestic tomatoes, though I have yet to recover domestic-type fruits from it.
Bullet	White 3/4"	Bullet shaped fruits. I maintain this line, because of the high umami, and because it is a 3 species hybrid (lycopersicum, habrochaites, pennellii). The flavor is iffy and adventuresome. The archetypal "fermenty" flavor that the project has mostly eliminated. Very productive.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

1st photo. Best of S35. 2021 grow-out.

2nd photo. Flower from R18, compared to a domestic flower.

[William Schlegel]

Joseph's post reminds me that I didn't give a very complete accounting in my earlier post of what is in my seed stash related to this project. If I didn't mention it in my earlier post except for the last item which is some seed Joseph just sent me, it isn't very high priority for planting out in 2022. 

1   PLANTED Big Hill HX-9 LA2329 Crossing block 2021- substantial amount of seed-PLANTED
2   DS EXSERTED pl red any rl seedling a cross!!! 2021
3   XL? early promiscuous project red and pink (from bicolor) not exserted elites 2021
4   exserted promiscuous bicolor 2021
5   exserted promiscuous pink from bicolor elites 2021
6   exserted promiscuous salmon bicolor no off taste probably not true obligate 2021
7   PLANTED- Exserted tiger LA2329 crossing block 2021
8   F2 S. Pennelii x tomato hybrids original packet from Andrew
9   Fairy Hollow none like Archetype- wild regression 2019
10   PLANTED favorite promiscuous bicolor from LA2329 Crossing block- already hybrids with more planted
11   G2 Habrochaites cytoplasm lofthouse no elites 2020
12   XL G2 Promiscuous XL Dark Chocolate Red 2020
14   LA4488 F1 Growout one plant Penellii X, it was grown near pennellii X F3 three way, and purish pennellii
15   Little Pumpkins (Promiscuous project)
16   Mixed Wild tomatoes half wilds and 3/4 wilds including pennellii and peruvianum and habrochaites
17   PLANTED MMS from LA2329 crossing block
18   Mouse Eaten (Slight damage) promiscuous project elites 2020
19   Neandermato 2017 either selfed or crossed with other species
20   PLANTED open and exserted plant that had empty fruits till end of season in la2329 crossing block 2021- already hybrids with more just planted
21   Polyamorous tomatoes bulk original packet from Joseph
22   XL Promiscuous G2 Pink 2020
23   promiscuous not exserted la2329 crossing block
24   PLANTED-DUD- promiscuous plant slightly inserted only three fruits at end of season maybe 20-40 seeds but doesn't feel like much LA2329 crossing block
25   Promiscuous project direct seeded orangish bicolor slightly exserted ~35 seeds
27   R18 will be g3 2021 promiscuous project
28   S. hab pollinated by BH x W 2020
29   S. habrochaites 3 locules (BC1?) 2018 original packet
30   the one! Exserted open persimmon tropical 2021 (I plan a huge grow out in 2022 then distribution after)promiscuous project
31   Three way hybrid pennellii x habrochaites x domestic 0.07 oz 2019
32   Ugly Cracking very domestic possible F1 bicolor 2019- grew in 2021 and didn't save seed because produced an average bicolor but might very well be a wild cross descendent of Big Hill.
33   XL a small plant that kept its fruit off the ground promiscuous project 2021
34   XL red 2021 tomato from promiscuous project elites
35   XL Tomato 0.6 oz promiscuous project elite 2020
36   Promiscuous Panormous Direct Seeded Grown by Joseph Lofthouse in 2021 by direct seeding- intended for 2022 direct seeded increase

[Arjan vD]

Solanum peruvianum
   White/purple 3/4"
   Collected from Mendocino County, California. Resistant to blight and irrigation with ocean water. Lovely flavor.

This one is interesting that it is irrigated with ocean water. Our nursery is a  couple hundred meters from the sea and the groundwater and the water in the canals here is very brackish. A tomato that could handle that water would be great. This is one of the reasons I was interested in working with Solanum pennellii because it is supposed to be salt tolerant.

[AndrewB]

S. pennellii, S. peruvianum, and S. galapagense are the three most interesting to me from the true wild. All supposedly should have good drought and / or salt tolerance.

The S. pennelli hybrids don't self pollinate very well either because of self incompatibility genes or chromosomes being being weird. I pollinated one with galapagense pollen once and got a large fruit developing but I lost it due to a mishap on my part. I'd like to do it again,  but i think I'm out of galapagense.

I would love a peruvianum x pennellii hybrid!

[AndrewB]

Thanks William and Joseph!

Some very interesting lines there!

I would love a tomato that has large flowers and tastes like a persimmon!!

[William Schlegel]

I didn't send you any LA1410 back?

[AndrewB]

I didn't send you any LA1410 back?

I don't think so. That's okay. Keep me in mind for next year!

I'm thinking of planting my tomatoes seeds inside today. I finally have a professional grow tent and have decent lighting that the overwintering peppers and Rubus bartonianus plants seem to like. Already have some tomato seedlings from my new favorite small dwarf domestic orange cherry tomato I found at the Sprouts supermarket last year.

Hopefully I'm not too far behind in starting my tomatoes this year. I get more organized each year. Don't think I have room for the domestic tomatoes or the habrochiates group, so I don't think I will grow them this year. Many others are working with habrochiates anyway.

These are the groups of seeds I think I will plant:

Semi - wild group which includes these subgroups:

Joseph's group: Q-series, R18, G2 pink, XL, promiscuous bicolors, etc.

Pennellii group

plentiflors & centiflors from Alan Kapuler

Galapagense group: S. galapagense, S. cheesmaniae, S. chmielewskii

S. sitiens & S. lycopersicoides

Big Hill group

LA1996 (AFT)

S. peruvianum group: S. peruvianum hybrids and random S. peruvinaum seeds.

[AndrewB]

Okay planted all the ones mentioned. 

Fingers crossed!

...I feel so behind on this project compared to the rest of you.  Oh, well.

[William Schlegel]

I just planted from the promiscuous project segregates I liked best last year:

Little Pumpkins (half the seeds there were ~20) a little inserted produced empty but good tasting tropical fruity fruits until seeds formed at the end.

The One! Fuyu Persimmon flavored open and exserted acts obligate outcrossing (About 100 seeds)- just two crowded cells but these I will transplant.

Salmon Bicolor might be facultative / just open and exserted. Just a pinch. I may direct seed more of these this year with exserted orange, big hill, MMS x BH and exserted tiger.

Edit: and a pinch of R18 and the four seeds of The One! I planted earlier one of them is growing nicely. Which suggests 25% germination on the packet I took them from but these were from a larger packet.

Oh and also there is the whole crossing with the LA2329 project and I suspect I have a couple MMS X LA2329 but mostly it looks like it is Promiscuous x LA2329 because the Exserted Tiger flat and the Big Hill flat both look really not very promising for hybrids at least as cotyledons.

Also, Andrew one of the neat things about this project is we can always bring anyone up to date on it with a seed packet.