Beautifully Promiscuous and Tasty Tomato Project

[William Schlegel]

So I have one plant of The One, Fuyu Persimmon flavored that is much bigger and older because of a desire to use it in early crosses. It does have some tight buds formed yay.

The thing is it is looking quite a bit dwarf-ish. The mother was small, and we've talked sometime in the past about some possibilities about dwarfs arising from interspecies crosses. That may in fact be where Payette got its dwarf character from. Joseph has described some of his selections from the project as dwarf.

Comparison to a Dwarf Gloria's treat in photo below plants are similar in age. The genes may not be quite the same, but it does seem to have a lot of what a true rugose dwarf has. I.E., it may be a true rugose dwarf or something very close to it.

[AndrewB]

Is there any possibility of getting a rooted cutting of "the one" shipped?

Do you think the flavor is stabilized? Will seedlings this year change in flavor?

[AndrewB]

Also, William,

What about a little pumpkin x persimmon cross?

P.s. I think there is a large orange beefsteak heirloom named persimmon already. So there is potential confusion there.

[William Schlegel]

Is there any possibility of getting a rooted cutting of "the one" shipped?

Do you think the flavor is stabilized? Will seedlings this year change in flavor?

Nothing to cut off yet! I wish I had dug up the original and brought it inside.

I hope to find out the answer to the flavor stabilization questions this year. My guess based on the flower structure of the mother is that selfing will be only part of the offspring. So I expect better average flavor but would be suprised if they all taste good.

I am also curious about the range of growth forms. Some of the seedlings seem really slow growing. Others faster to pretty normal but the oldest is definitely growing fairly slow and sturdily.

Little pumpkins had a similar flavor. Will see what it does this year. A cross would probably be a little boring but I am most interested in the first question for now. Stability?! Little pumpkins produced far less seed and had inserted stigmas. I don't know for sure if that has any advantage for stability. I thought I might keep them in the same block but I've also thought about putting the Little Pumpkins in with a wider diversity.

I wouldn't be suprised if it takes awhile given that we have deliberately bred for outcrossing. So more like breeding corn and less like breeding inbreeding tomatoes. Selection still works though. I think pulling three good ones out of hundreds this year I would be very pleased if 60% of these are good. If ten of them are that is still progress. Planting them in more places may help to understand the variation as well. My soils are a bit variable.

I would like to grow the "Persimmon" named tomato some time. Don't think it would do well here with the short growing season but I might get one good tomato. I am not actually calling mine exactly the same name- I don't actually think it is ready to be named or distributed to the general public. The tag description in sloppy handwriting is actually "The One, Fuyu Persimmon, Exserted, Open".

One of my questions this year is if I have really tasted very many really good tomato varieties. I'm curious to know what some of the dwarfs and Craig's top ten list tomatoes taste like. I am also growing a clump of F1 Sungold because it is one I have tasted and is sort of a similar fruity flavored tomato.

[AndrewB]

Yeah, I just figured I'd mention the officially named persimmon variety just in case. I've never grown it, but I doubt it actually tastes as much as a persimmon as your and joseph's lines do.

I'm actually really excited about all the various flavors popping out of this project. I knew Solanum pennellii had the most scent chemical compounds out of the wild tomato species, so it is cool to see the recombination and segregation with domestic tomato genetics. Some of the other wild species have some diversity as well, but I remember one study had said S. pennellii had the most and most unique chemicals too. Really cool stuff.

Considering tomatoes are botanically a fruit it is cool to see new types that have more fruity flavor. I really do think this project could change domestic tomato evolution drastically. Who knows if they will even have old style tomatoes in 200 years or if they will only be growing tropical flavored ones. haha.

My favorite domestic tomato is one I don't have a name for. I got it last year from the Sprouts farmers market store and was being marketed by the Rocket Farms in California.

https://rocketfarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/133-orange-tomato-in-sleeve.png

I think it is different than Sungold, but not sure what it is. It seems to be potato leaved and seems to be an extra thick stemmed dwarf variety. Nice dark tasty orange cherry tomatoes. For a domestic tomato I really like it. Just wish I knew the name.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

My tomatoes are mostly in the ground.

In my kitchen garden, I planted about 30 plants that I think are fully self-incompatible.

In my main field, I planted the segregating hybrids from last year's F1 hybrids with SunSugar, and Solanum pimpinelifolium. I planted the segregating F2 hybrids of [potato-leaved Brad x Solanum habrochaites].

About 100 feet away in the main field, I planted the elite lines. Which have a mixed breeding system.

Still to plant is an isolated field of Solanum habrochaites.

I also have a bunch of F2 hybrids of [potato-leaved Brad x Solanum habrochaites] which I haven't decided what to do with. The potato-leaved plants would have selfed. The habrochaites-leaved might be selfed, or back-crossed with S habrochaites. I may grow them in pots until they flower.

[William Schlegel]

I weeded the isolated The One! and Little Pumpkins patch today. I also transplanted a couple plants that were doubles into single spots and weeded out some volunteer Exserted Orange.

I also weeded the promiscuous second year direct seeded garden today. I found and removed one volunteer from that garden's last year direct seeding experiment which was a mix of genetics including the promiscuous project.

I have the tasty tropical fruit ones in four different gardens this year but only isolated in one. Hoping for crossing in the other three. Namely with my MMS x BH F2 or MMM, MMS, and maybe lots of things at the house and in the everything else garden.  My first experiment with the oldest plant at the house is to see if it self-pollinates though that might require buzzing.

Then I have the one I am calling Salmon growing in the everything else garden and promiscuous volunteers all around my direct seeded row.

I have a clump of R18 G3 planted in with a Solanum habrochaites accession known for multi-gene based late blight resistance at the house. I am hoping it crosses with that accession.

I have the F1 descendants of Promiscuous x LA2329 growing in the Arthropod resistance garden and one promiscuous project plant from one of the mothers I used last year that produced the FI hybrids.

Also, I may likely have some MMS x Promiscuous F1 plants out there in the everything else garden. Though not sure how I will tell them apart from MMS x BH F1 seedlings that are also possible. 

The few flowers I have had so far this year are a little disappointing in terms of flower structure. My biggest F1 Promiscuous x LA2329 is blooming and not exserted. I dissected the third blossom today as the older ones are about to fall off. The style is long and brings the stigma right to the tip of the anther cone so once there are more flowers on more plants and the next generation of this year's Bombus colonies come out it is at least possible it will accept some pollen!

[AndrewB]

My tomatoes are mostly in the ground.

Mine are mostly planted as well.

I just planted out the pennellii group and what I nicknamed the "Q" group. I don't actually remember if it has the Q series included, I'd have to go check my notes, but it has a mix of the ones from this project that sound like they may be the tastiest from Joseph and William. We will get what we get. Will need to do lots of taste testing after collecting fruits, especially from these plants.

All I have left to plant out are the peruvianum hybrids group and the Cheesmaniae group. Letting them aclimate a few days under partial shade. They are the shortest plants of all the tomatoes planted (minus the Rocket Orange cherry tomato that is somewhere between a dwarf and a micro tomato).

The Big Hill plants look to be growing fast.

[William Schlegel]

In my far NW garden where I used to grow exserted orange I am growing out an isolation garden of my two tastiest promiscuous project tomatoes in 2021. I called them Little Pumpkins and The One! The thing I would like to report is that I can tell them apart by the plants. Little pumpkin seedlings are dark green, and The One are light green due to fuzz. The one seems to be some kind of dwarf. Little Pumpkins might be a little bit growthier.

I am going to be excited to find out how much flavor variation there is and if the good tropical flavor comes back. I also have them in three other gardens for backup should anything happen to the far garden. Sometimes it got munched a little by deer in the past but always produced plenty of fruit for seed production for exserted orange.

The plant of the The One! planted in the ground in the greenhouse is not as exserted or open as the mother and those in the field are blooming just a little later which makes me think that as a population it is a little later which is what I expected based on the mother plant being late to fruit. Hope it is not too late!

Also had a plainer strain I called exserted Salmon or just Salmon and I will be excited to find out if it is still decent like it was last year.

[Arjan vD]

Hi, a little update

The first tomatoes on the wildling plants in my greenhouse have started to ripe this week and I have been sampling them for taste. Some tomatoes tasted bad but most of the orange ones taste real nice and one orange fruited tomato seems to be a tropical fruit tasting one! I've already made some crosses with it but I want to have as much as possible pure seeds from it. The flowers are not exterted so it probably is self pollinating.

Outdoor the first fruits are maturing on my Wildling selection and Wildling crosses with Matts wild cherry and Tomatito de jalapa. First fruits of these should ripen in the next weeks.
Q and BH series is also forming fruit.

Weather has been great so there is no problems with diseases yet.

[AndrewB]

Anyone have flowers yet?

After I had planted all mine out nearly all the "Q" group died in the full sun bed. I think its actually a mix of Q and several others that were reported to be throwing the tastiest ones,  so that stinks. Would need to check my notes. But nearly all the others in the shady-ish bed survived. Perhaps I didn't harden them off enough or planted them too early.

Had trouble keeping S. sitiens and S. lycopersicoides plants alive,  but in one raised planting bucket thing I have at least one of each. These two species may not cross readily with the other species but they reportedly easily cross with each other. Since they both have scented flowers that will be interesting. One is reported to have sweet flowers,  the other smelly flowers, so they have different evolved pollinator strategies. Would be cool to move scented flowers into this project.

None are flowering yet. Big Hill plants are the largest.  I hit my first edible tomato yesterday, but it was from the micro dwarf orange tomato. Much smaller plant than the plant I bought last year from the supermarket.

[William Schlegel]

I have quite a bit of flowering. The selection I call little pumpkins is blooming, the one is in bud. Except for the older plant of the one which has been flowering awhile. I attempted using it as a pollen donor weekend before last. Will be interesting to see if any took this coming weekend.

My promiscuous x LA2329 are flowering at least two of them. LA2329 has buds already.

In general my tomato gardens are in the early flowering phase but it has picked up a lot. 50 degree nights are finally here.

[William Schlegel]

The 2021 selection I call "The One!" is flowering pretty good finally but mostly just one big, fused blossom on the top. Just in terms of growth form all the 2022 grow out are pretty consistent. They have some kind of dwarf trait. The stem looks almost fasciated. The leaves kind of droop down. The uniformity and recognizability gives me the thought that it must have selfed or mostly selfed in 2021.

Little pumpkins by comparison may also be dwarf but it has a lot smaller flowers and doesn't have the same distinctive growth form.

[William Schlegel]

The One! and Little Pumpkins patch has about 39 tomatoes on it total. None of them are yet ripe. Some plants, probably little Pumpkins plants have a lot. Many have just one or two, and many plants haven't set a tomato yet. Have been watering it fairly regularly of late about once a week or so.

There is one tomato on older The One! plant in the greenhouse.

It is hard to tell on the patch that is The One! mixed with MMS and MMM plants. There are a couple Little Pumpkins in that patch as well.

The The One! plants in the tightly mixed row got a little outcompeted but I think there are still a few. Also, the The One! plants that were planted kind of late in a tight little row of just them are still looking ok, but I don't see any fruit.

It would really be nice if more fruit would set! It would also be very interesting to get a cross made with The One!

I can't wait to see what comes of this experiment in flavor breeding.

However, I have a certain fear that we have bred a very tasty but very long season and unproductive tomato. If so, it might be a tomato that would really do well somewhere further south. It looks a bit wild in the leaves to me. Maybe it has some Solanum penellii genetics showing through in the leaves. I wonder if it would do well in California?!

[AndrewB]

I had a mostly S. pennellii plant (F3?) this year succumb to some sort of rust or blight from the potato plants, while most of the other tomatoes including Big Hill have shown no disease.

I think if it were me, I would try my best to do side by side comparisons of taste and segregate them into 2 or three groups of saved seeds.

Late season is not the end of the world, as it could always be used in a cross as an interesting parent line.

I've got some tomatoes growing, but it has not been a kind year. Some of the Big Hill plants almost seem to be acting like self-incompatible. I'll have to watch those plants to see if they set anything late and whether there are notable differences with the rest. So far no S. peruvianum or S. peruvianum hybrids setting any fruits, though they have the showiest flowers in the garden.