Author Topic: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project  (Read 1841 times)

Andrew Barney

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #15 on: 2019-09-03, 06:27:04 PM »
Found a pretty domestic x habrochaites cross F3? Or so. Seems to have S allele intact.

Wow! That looks cool.  Certainly has big fruit! Taste may or may not be good,  but still cool! I like the pattern on the bottom.  Direct seeded too?!

William S.

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #16 on: 2019-09-03, 07:12:31 PM »
No, just a transplant. The direct seeding of half wilds wasnt very effective. I think I need lots more seed!

Getting there though for next year! This is my biggest half/wild seed bag.
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triffid

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #17 on: 2019-09-04, 08:19:32 AM »
Found a pretty domestic x habrochaites cross F3? Or so. Seems to have S allele intact.

What's the role of the S allele?
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William S.

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #18 on: 2019-09-04, 06:44:45 PM »
S allele is really important to Joseph's project. It forces some Solanum species to outcross. It's why S. Habrochaites has such deep diversity.

Basically a number of versions exist and plants won't accept their own pollen.
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Lauren

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #19 on: 2019-09-05, 10:53:19 AM »
So...how do you tell the difference between forced outcrossing and male sterility without a microscope? Especially when most of the plants around have closed flowers?

Andrew Barney

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #20 on: 2019-09-05, 12:30:04 PM »
So...how do you tell the difference between forced outcrossing and male sterility without a microscope? Especially when most of the plants around have closed flowers?

That's a good question. I have a suspicion it can be very easy. Take a black spoon and use an electric toothbrush. If it releases lots of pollen but has little fruit on the plant I'd say its self incompatible. If no pollen, then male sterile is a high possibility, in which case some manual crosses might be a good idea.

William S.

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #21 on: 2019-09-05, 05:06:42 PM »
I have one two year old hab x domestic F2? plant that's never produced a berry. It's fertility problems run deep.

Lots of my penellii x domestic F3 plants are producing no fruit.

There might be any of several reasons why a interspecies hybrid produces no fruit... inserted flowers, wrong S alleles, not attractive to bees, receptors on stigma don't work right, no pollen, etc.

I think I've decided to play it as a numbers game and just save fruit from those that segregate back to fertility.
« Last Edit: 2019-09-06, 07:47:43 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Lauren

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #22 on: 2019-09-07, 08:44:22 AM »
If it releases lots of pollen but has little fruit on the plant I'd say its self incompatible. If no pollen, then male sterile is a high possibility, in which case some manual crosses might be a good idea.
I have one tomato plant (just FYI, all my tomatoes are mongrels) in the greenhouse that hasn't gotten any fruit on it the whole season. It has plenty of pollen. I just hand pollinated two flowers. I have another in the main garden that is doing the same thing--lots of flowers, pollen is evident, but no fruit. Self-incompatible? There are other possibilities, like heat, the high UV index, water, etc. It'll be interesting to see if those manual crosses take, as that would rather eliminate most of the environmental factors.

William S.

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #23 on: 2019-09-07, 10:04:52 AM »
I have one tomato plant (just FYI, all my tomatoes are mongrels) in the greenhouse that hasn't gotten any fruit on it the whole season. It has plenty of pollen. I just hand pollinated two flowers. I have another in the main garden that is doing the same thing--lots of flowers, pollen is evident, but no fruit. Self-incompatible? There are other possibilities, like heat, the high UV index, water, etc. It'll be interesting to see if those manual crosses take, as that would rather eliminate most of the environmental factors.

Is it an interspecies hybrid with habrochaites or penellii?
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Lauren

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #24 on: 2019-09-07, 06:45:22 PM »
Unless something sneaked in when I wasn't looking, probably not.

William S.

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #25 on: 2019-09-07, 09:00:46 PM »
Unless something sneaked in when I wasn't looking, probably not.

Probably a lack of pollinators plus still air in the greenhouse then.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #26 on: 2019-09-08, 09:45:01 PM »
Collecting fruits and saving tomato seed.

Here is a picture of most of my wild and half wild fruits so far. Got some Arcanum berries today.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #27 on: 2019-09-08, 09:46:49 PM »
Wow! That looks cool.  Certainly has big fruit! Taste may or may not be good,  but still cool! I like the pattern on the bottom. 

Taste is ok. Only a few really good looking seeds in there. Fermenting now.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Peter

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #28 on: 2019-09-10, 12:25:33 AM »
How many of you who dry farm have ever used black plastic? I don't mean landscaping fabric.

Anyway, I don't exactly dry farm, but I water very little (and usually only at the beginning of the season) in a semi-arid area with very little rain and a lot of summer heat. I've found that using black plastic has a number of advantages for gardening with drought, and at least a couple disadvantages:

Less water is needed. The soil is warmer. Many tomatoes will produce more. some will grow faster and more. Some will get too hot and become stunted. The downside is that acclimatization to growing with black plastic isn't the same as without it. Alternating every other year probably isn't the best idea (be consistent), as it's almost like starting over there.

Making sure the plants have a good supply of potassium also helps, with regard to heat/drought tolerance and fruit size. Three handfuls of wood ash early on seems to do the job for me.

I have a suspicion that storing the seeds in a freezer for a while before planting may increase vigor. I definitely intend to try that.

Anyway, some varieties that I think are probably good candidates for direct-seeding and dry farming with black plastic are these (they've done well for me in near-dry-farming conditions with black plastic; I haven't tried direct-seeding them, but they're early enough):
* Marion (good-sized fruit; prolific; quite tasty; vigorous)
* Bloody Butcher (prolific; decent taste; doesn't take up too much space)
* Galapagos Island (my version; it's extremely early; good fruit to leaf/vine ratio; this is great with or without black plastic, in drought, but it gets bigger with black plastic, I think; handles poor soil well; I actually have direct-seeded this in a container outside before, but the other times I've grown it have been through transplants in the ground)
* Sweet Orange Cherry (similar to Galapagos Island, but fruits are a little larger, taste a little different, and the plant is a little later, with a larger, vinier plant with fewer suckers; good fruit to leaf/vine ratio; this is great with or without black plastic, in drought; handles poor soil well)
* Coyote (handles early season cold weather with much vigor; not as practical of a plant as I'd like, since it has a lot of foliage compared to fruit, but it has good genes for breeding; translucent yellow/off-white fruit; isn't ripe when it first changes color)
* Matt's Wild Cherry (similar to Coyote, except it has a lot of vines for the fruit instead of a lot of leaves; very deep red fruit; isn't ripe when it first changes color)
* Possibly my Brandy Boy crosses (not sure just how early they are, as I transplanted the F2s young and late, but the F1 was great there; the F2s have large pink to dark pink fruits; RL or PL; wide range of flavors, but I found two I liked a lot; one of those two was a near multiflora)

Then there's Thessaloniki (prolific; good-sized fruits; I wouldn't call it early, but maybe early enough; I wouldn't recommend it without the black plastic for dry farming, though, if my experience there wasn't with a cross)

Another one that might not be as early as is ideal, but that can be geat in black plastic in very hot temperatures is Sausage. It still needs proper soil to avoid BER, though, but it's the later fruits that are probably less prone to BER that matter most with Sausage.

« Last Edit: 2019-09-10, 12:37:41 AM by naiku »

William S.

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Re: Direct seeded dry farmed tomato breeding project
« Reply #29 on: 2019-09-10, 06:35:22 AM »
In 2017 Bloody Butcher was a variety I tried direct seeded. It did ok. Was not top ten.

Andrew sent me a very early domestic galapagos derivitive this year. It deserves testing against my top ten.

Coyote is in my top ten- towards the bottom.

Sweet Cherriette works ok but under dry farmed direct seeding it was slower than something in my F2.

Ordinary segregating Sungold F2 also seems a good place to start.

Lizzano segregating F2s could be a good place to start if PH2 and PH3 resistance is important.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days