Author Topic: Salsify  (Read 14616 times)

B. Copping

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 120
  • Karma: 13
    • View Profile
Re: Salsify
« Reply #75 on: 2019-07-09, 10:17:57 AM »
Did you sow the Purslane or does it volunteer in your garden

The purslane volunteers.
Elsewhere in the garden I call it a weed. :)

I’m doing an informal experiment: will these two plants play well together. I will pick and eat half, once it gets large enough, and keep that part clear afterwards.

Seed collection has begun!

Steve1

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 76
  • Karma: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Salsify
« Reply #76 on: 2019-07-10, 05:37:35 AM »
Wow, look what I found now, https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Figure2-Typical-inflorescences-of-T-pratensis-T-porrifolius-and-hybrids-found-in-this_fig1_281464811. These are worth it just for the flowers! But the article goes on to say that in 250 years of hybridization T pratensis and T porrifolius hae not made a new species.

But the article also says  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281464811_250_years_of_hybridisation_between_two_biennial_herb_species_without_speciation

So I can go dig up or collect seeds of wild T dubious and I'v got  T porrifolius from Richard so all I need now is to get some T pratensis and throw em all together and let em do their thing.

Here is another picture of various hybrids,
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Polyploidy-and-novelty%3A-Gottlieb's-legacy.-Soltis-Liu/04a58ab6b49f64ab06ede38eee46e1ea53cde7c3/figure/1
Goes a long way to explain why there is so much conflicting and erroneous info in the old blogasphere regarding these plants.

Righto, just had a glance throught that non speciation paper - and the kicker to me seems that in the offspring examined of pratensis x porrifolius were all diploid. Maybe the crosses with dibius somehow are more likely to spontaneously double and form allopolyploids and speciate (or are more weedy and hit with herbicide more frequently).
Seems like a ripe opertunity for those with the plants and some Oryzalin in the cupboard to see what happens.
Really good work Richard on the more carrot like salsify roots.

Just a thought, the short stumpy carrots which grow well in clay are a result of some very particulary stubborn person selecting for okay carrots on clay soil. Persistance is perhaps the key.

Cheers
Steve 

Peter

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: 4
    • View Profile
    • GrowSpice™
    • Email
Re: Salsify
« Reply #77 on: 2019-07-23, 11:32:19 PM »
Salsify grows wild around here (SW Idaho), and seems to do fine in drought conditions (as a plant—not necessarily for cultivation; I can't say one way or the other there). When they go to seed, they look like giant dandelions. I never knew they were root vegetables until about a year or two ago. It's an infrequent weed in my garden.

Here's some by Eagle Island state park, in or near Eagle, Idaho. (The pictures were taken on 28 June 2019.)
« Last Edit: 2019-07-23, 11:43:04 PM by naiku »

William S.

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,640
  • Karma: 66
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Salsify
« Reply #78 on: 2021-11-05, 09:31:01 PM »
Grew the Fiore Blu and Giant Sandwich Island now for two years. Got a lot of seed back. Replanted some of it. Need that Luthy. Didn't get any wild seed of Tragopogon porrifolius yet. Though it seems to be brown pappus and the dubious white so if I ever find wild salsify with brown pappus I'll be picking it.

I guess because I am a seed nerd with growing seed as a first priority I just grew seed and mixed the seeds of Fiore Blu and Giant Sandwich Island. I thought that perhaps the first seeds planted and harvested were Fiore Blu, and some of the latter or maybe even 2021's whole harvest mammoth sandwich island. Though I am not even really sure what I have or if any had the chance to hybridize between the two varieties. So my proto grex is of an uncertain status. Going forward I suspect I need new packets of Fiore Blu, Mammoth Sandwich Island, and Luthy plus the proto grex. Perhaps if in a bed all four lots were planted I could start to learn the varietal differences if any. From above ground growth. Flowers looked the same, plant size varied. Seeds looked the same.

So if as I suspect from "How to Grow More Vegetables" rating it as one of only 7 root crops basically capable of supporting a vegan climate friendly diet and thus this is an important crop to work on, I am still in the infancy of understanding it both as a vegetable and as a potential breeding project.

There is also the question of within varietal variation. I just did a quick search of the ARS GRIN database finding a single accession referrable to Mammoth Sandwich Island. Which is certainly the dominant variety and likely that utilized by the How to Grow More Vegetables book researchers.

So what variation is there within Mammoth Sandwich Island as well as variation between MSI, Fiore Blu, Luthy, and wild population? Though it is entirely possible many wild populations are feral and if so the most likely culprit would be Mammoth Sandwich Island.

If variation doesn't exist there isn't much basis for breeding! Though there is that interspecies hybrid possibility.

I gave some seed to a coworker and they didn't plant it- too weird they said. Still not really being fully utilized by me though I now have a plentitude of proto grex seed.

One other note: seems to suffer from a rust more than Tragopogon dubius the likely source and carrier.

Another seed does not seem to fully naturally disperse as well as Tragopogon dubius seed. Perhaps some domestication / lack of function accumulation.
« Last Edit: 2021-11-06, 02:57:16 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,640
  • Karma: 66
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Salsify
« Reply #79 on: 2021-11-06, 11:55:34 AM »
Simply looking at photos of the three available varieties online:

Luthy: Described as a land race and looks variable in a photo.

Fiore Blu: uniform slender roots in a photo

Mammoth Sandwich Island: often represented as a large root.

Wild type: could look at herbarium specimens in online images. Just looked at a bunch through the Burke herbarium both photos of live plants and photos of specimens. Roots look small but that could be from selection for good specimens to mount. I know when I flatten a plant I often try to find a herbarium sheet sized one.
« Last Edit: 2021-11-06, 12:00:51 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Garrett Schantz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6
Re: Salsify
« Reply #80 on: 2021-11-06, 06:24:27 PM »
I'm seeing mention of Mammoth Sandwich Island and Black salsify.

Are we discussing Tragopogon and Scorzonera genus?

I grew a purple flowered Tragopogon the past two years, only flowers for about a day.

There are some different types available on Etsy.

William S.

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,640
  • Karma: 66
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Salsify
« Reply #81 on: 2021-11-06, 08:29:30 PM »
I'm seeing mention of Mammoth Sandwich Island and Black salsify.

Are we discussing Tragopogon and Scorzonera genus?

I grew a purple flowered Tragopogon the past two years, only flowers for about a day.

There are some different types available on Etsy.

I've just been talking about Tragopogon species aka salsify though a few others mentioned scorzonera the catalogues used to sell both in one section but they aren't the same thing. I'm not that intrigued by scorzonera.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,640
  • Karma: 66
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Salsify
« Reply #82 on: 2021-11-07, 09:44:59 AM »
Was just looking up Salsify in my reference books. 2002 copyright Seed to Seed says it is at risk of crossing to wild/feral Tragopogon porrifolius as welp as other varieties but flowers may also self. It also says that seed savers exchange members used to regularly offer 12 varieties and commercial sources 47 varieties.

I have found ~4 perhaps 5 if you include unnamed.

Wonder what the deal is with that decline? Decline in name only? The USDA only has mammoth sandwich island in the ARS-GRIN system. They have some tendency to genetically test and make decisions from that basis.

One way to proceed with a breeding project might be very large population size. Like burbank and California poppy. From scaling up to very large populations you would be able to find perhaps a few color mutations. Also a few rare interspecies hybrids. Perhaps.

If my goal is an OSSI registered variety my question is how to achieve that. Might be worth doing deliberate crosses between varieties.

Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Richard Watson

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Karma: 31
  • South Island - New Zealand
    • View Profile
    • Sentinels Group Seeds
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Cfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 9
Re: Salsify
« Reply #83 on: 2021-11-07, 10:21:31 AM »
I'm sure what I'm growing is wild Tragopogon as the roots are not good form, tend to have one major stem with many side roots off that, the main stem is normally hollow, but its the finger thickness side roots that we eat.
Changeable climate manly during winter & spring - 500mm average yearly rainfall. 20 years of soil improvements plus sub soil top soil reversal means my garden beds are about half metre deep. Below that is 100's of metres of alluvial shingle

William S.

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,640
  • Karma: 66
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Salsify
« Reply #84 on: 2021-11-07, 12:48:41 PM »
I'm sure what I'm growing is wild Tragopogon as the roots are not good form, tend to have one major stem with many side roots off that, the main stem is normally hollow, but its the finger thickness side roots that we eat.

Did you collect it originally from a wild population? Have you grown any other varieties of it?
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,640
  • Karma: 66
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Salsify
« Reply #85 on: 2021-11-07, 12:53:51 PM »
In the wildlands around here, salsify with yellow flowers, and salsify with purple flowers grow in the same patches. For whatever that's worth....

It is very interesting! Here we never used to have the purple until a few years back I started seeing it in the town 15 miles north. Though busy the last two years I've been interested and haven't seen it.

In theory if I ever have time I could also track down populations from herbarium records. It would be nice to have seed of at least one wild population of the Tragopogon porrifolius with the purple flowers for the grex and for comparison with known varieties.

Also I have not yet noticed any volunteers from my purple patch but the yellow Tragopogon dubious volunteers into the purple patch. The pappus is brown and the seeds don't seem to disperse as well on the domestic T. Porrifolius.
« Last Edit: 2021-11-07, 12:55:28 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,640
  • Karma: 66
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Salsify
« Reply #86 on: 2021-11-07, 01:35:34 PM »
Salsify Questions I am accumulating:

What are the differences between varieties?

How does domestic Tragopogon porrifolius differ from wild?

How much variation within varieties?

Has mammoth sandwich island accumulated variation between sellers?

Is luthy described as a historic land race more variable?

Why aren't their different colored flowers and roots within T. porrifolius?

How much variation is there at the genetic level?

Is there a basis in variation for a breeding project?

What was the deal when Seed to Seed was published with # of varieties 12 through SSE 47 commercial vs. Now?

What is the outcrossing rate?

Are there any ornamental flower selections?
« Last Edit: 2021-11-07, 01:41:20 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Richard Watson

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Karma: 31
  • South Island - New Zealand
    • View Profile
    • Sentinels Group Seeds
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Cfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 9
Re: Salsify
« Reply #87 on: 2021-11-07, 01:54:10 PM »
Did you collect it originally from a wild population? Have you grown any other varieties of it?

Had it for so long that I cant remember where the seed came from. No that's the only one Ive grower
Changeable climate manly during winter & spring - 500mm average yearly rainfall. 20 years of soil improvements plus sub soil top soil reversal means my garden beds are about half metre deep. Below that is 100's of metres of alluvial shingle

William S.

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,640
  • Karma: 66
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Salsify
« Reply #88 on: 2021-11-08, 11:17:40 PM »
Towards some answers I've sent off for some fresh seed of three "varieties". Though I also corresponded with someone whos opinion I respect who essentially said there may not be any real variation in them.

If so, that is fine, but it could leave limited options for any sort of breeding program.

Still, I have questions!

One very simple mind experiment I have is about white flowers.

Echinacea purpurea is a purple aster. It was once pretty uniformly purple.. It now comes in white and double and all sorts of variations.

How was that achieved?

Is the same possible for Tragopogon porrifolius?

That's more on the level of ornamental variation. Still. Questions !

« Last Edit: 2021-11-10, 07:15:44 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,640
  • Karma: 66
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Salsify
« Reply #89 on: 2022-06-08, 07:14:08 PM »
I planted some Salsify from new and saved seed recently. Probably not great timing, but we will see.

The old patch which seems to reseed itself is blooming. I planted Mammoth Sandwich Island and Fiore Blu there originally. There is also wild Tragopogon dubius salsify quite commonly. Well I noticed the blooms seemingly on a couple plants were light purple and many dark purple. So my question is do Mammoth Sandwich Island and Fiore Blue have different colored flowers, were some of the flowers simply different ages, or could their be hybridization between garden salsify and the wild yellow salsify or the two varieties of garden salsify which generated the variation. So I guess my next step is to just continue to observe and see if I can find out if the variation is real or not and maybe deduce where it came from.

I might go look at a few salsify pictures on Google.

https://www.adaptiveseeds.com/product/highlighted-varieties/market-farm-varieties/salsify-fiore-blu-organic/

Photo of Fiore Blu on adaptive seeds looks a bit light purple to me.

https://www.resilientseeds.com/store/p157/Salsify_-_Fiore_Blu_%28Certified_Organic%29.html

On resilient seeds Fiore Blu looks a bit dark purple to me.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Tragopogon-triangle-with-the-flowers-of-the-diploid-Tragopogon-species-at-the-apices-of_fig1_23307730

On this figure on researchgate it looks like a interspecies hybrid can result in a lighter purple flower and apparently double the chromosome count. The hybrids aren't known as a vegetable crop so maybe it doesn't result in larger roots though? No idea if this is what has happened or how common it is for this hybrid to crop up.

Hmm, not sure, will have to examine the plants again. Maybe take some photographs. Look for signs of hybridization and such.

Edit: examined the plants again. There is variation in flower color and as near I could tell in a light rain flower color only. Nothing definitive.
« Last Edit: 2022-06-10, 09:54:48 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days