Author Topic: Climate Change Breeding  (Read 5554 times)

spacecase0

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #75 on: 2020-02-05, 07:26:20 PM »
Winter has basically been absent this year. I've taken advantage of warm weather to get my gardens prepped to plant. Paths are cleared and some beds pretty much ready for seed. Others have nice cover of radish, turnip, mustard and overwintered carrots. Onions and garlic are growing and even some Swiss chard is chugging along.
If this continues (normal) planting will begin weeks sooner than in the old days. If last couple years are any indication a "late" cold snap in May or June might ruin it all but I have lots of seeds.
the just stream just made my warm winter change to real winter a few days ago
curious if it does that to you anytime soon

spacecase0

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #76 on: 2020-02-05, 07:30:11 PM »
I only say that because many people asked me if they should plant last week.
I assured them that it was to early.
there is a good reason why without all this modern weather news, trust the dates from your data...
there is a good reason that farmers always use to trust the calender.
don't forget how new the weather predictions really are (and at least for me getting less accurate every year)

Steph S

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #77 on: 2020-02-06, 01:29:27 PM »
Reed, do you use row cover?   Just wondering because that is such a key technology for us, to save stuff from cold snaps.
Then again, a good cold snap is also a 'selection event' if anything survives.  8)  Not much fun if nothing does, though.  ::)

That 'trichome' reading was great btw.  Thank you AndrewBarney for the useful search term!  :)

spacecase0

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #78 on: 2020-02-06, 09:57:33 PM »
the just stream just made my warm winter change to real winter a few days ago
curious if it does that to you anytime soon
should have read "jet stream"
sorry about that.

reed

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #79 on: 2020-02-07, 07:21:49 AM »
Yea, I figured out the just stream. I have never used row covers. I do have some old bed sheets and plastic that I occasionally throw over something. And, my cold frames, I got some nice lettuce and radish growing in one of them right now. We've been eating the radishes as sprouts, or rather as small greens a little bigger than sprouts. I plant more as I harvest.

William S.

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #80 on: 2020-02-15, 12:57:07 PM »
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200210091157.htm

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/02/06/1915848117

This is interesting. I just read the science daily article so far. It talks about how Plantago lanceolata has adapted to harsher environments than its original environment all over the world. Multiple introductions give the invasive populations high genetic diversity. It seems suggestive to me that evolutionary / landrace plant breeding is capable of breaking environmental restrictions.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200214134705.htm

This article on the spread of crops between Asia and Europe 5200 YBP also seems to hint at this. Wheat was able to live in Northern China- it had the genetic diversity already to make the adaptation. Of course its only recently that we started growing inbred strains of any crop!

That seems to add evidence to the thesis that high genetic diversity allows for rapid adaptation to novel environments. So if we want to move a crop or other edible plant around to combat climate change, or keep a crop in place in the face of climate change, a healthy injection of genetic diversity stands to order.

I have long wondered if this could be applicable to native plant populations such as Bee Balm Monarda fistulosa. Bee Balm has an enormous native range and there are a number of cultivars available with a lot of variation in height and color. I introduced some of this variation to my property and am curious to see if any increase in recruitment may happen with time.
« Last Edit: 2020-02-15, 01:15:30 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Steph S

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #81 on: 2020-02-17, 08:38:40 AM »
William, I just remembered this material on Hopeful Monsters and transgressive segregation in hybrids and found it in my notes.
Worth rereading when I get a chance.  Transgressive phenotypes are those that exceed pheno values for both parents, which is what we need to produce eg shorter season crops to defeat the effect of extremes under climate change. 

Transgressive Hybrids as Hopeful Monsters:  (2012)
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11692-012-9209-0

and the prior work:

https://www.nature.com/articles/6886170
Transgressive segregation, adaptation and speciation
Loren H Rieseberg, Margaret A Archer and Robert K Wayne 1999

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1693210/
The genetic architecture necessary for transgressive segregation is common in both natural and domesticated populations
Rieseberg et al 2003

William S.

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #82 on: 2020-02-17, 09:29:51 AM »
That seems familiar. I think there are examples in Carol's books in her various stories of crops. Where a shorter season variety arose from two with normal seasons.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

reed

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #83 on: 2020-02-17, 09:53:04 AM »
Worth rereading when I get a chance.  Transgressive phenotypes are those that exceed pheno values for both parents, which is what we need to produce eg shorter season crops to defeat the effect of extremes under climate change.

Roots of the original parents of my sweet potatoes had either all orange or purple/white roots yet I have had seed grown plants very different from those parents. Most extreme are solid purple and solid white roots. Would that be consider an example of Transgressive phenotypes? Other traits have exhibited similarly but root color really stands out as most noticeable.

I just figured it was due to dominant or recessive genes coming together in different ways so not anything really new, especially since those colors exist already in a number of heirloom clones. Or is that just another  way of saying, transgenic segregation?

As far as faster maturing I have just started saving seed from earliest maturing plants of what ever crop separate from the rest. For example in my "survivor" pole beans from time I find the first dry seed I set a limit of a couple weeks and keep those seed separated. Then all the rest are just mixed like I used to do. At planting time even though the early seed may make only 10% of the total, I plant it in at least 50% proportion. Just been at it a couple seasons but seems to be working pretty good.
« Last Edit: 2020-02-17, 10:01:03 AM by reed »

William S.

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #84 on: 2020-02-17, 11:32:17 AM »
Not quite sure about the colors in sweet potatoes but I suspect that novel combinations of traits is a lot of what happens with transgressive segregation. So two very different hundred day corns might give you a range of days to maturity from say 75 to 125. 75 DTM is a big gain over 100. The sweet potatoes I suppose how segregated they are could very with the generation of the clone.

I bet this was very dramatic historically when two land races mixed. Say farmer A walked 1000 miles and traded some seed with farmer B and walked home. Both farmers might then mix the AB seed and the seed would segregate over several years. Now we just mail each other seed.

Mike sent me some Cucurbita moschata F2 from California last year that was Thai crossed with a mix including Lofthouse. It did great. I let it cross with Lofthouse and Autumn's choice F1. A few years ago I didn't think Moschatas would really grow here. Maybe they still don't in cold years 2018 was a bust but 2017 and 2019 were both great. 2018 was just Lofthouse which did great.

I personally think that one of the most powerful tools we have to adapt to climate change is simply mailing our grex seed back and forth, North and South, east-west too. I think it swaps genes rapidly and allows for rapid adaptive change. It also I think automatically builds in a lot of epigenetic change, transgressive hybridization and so forth. For the last decade or so Joseph has been a source of this kind of diversity. We can also get this affect by attending local seed swaps. As long as the varieties are different, once mixed some of these adaptive processes should kick in and the potential for something good like transgressive hybridization to occur is there. 
« Last Edit: 2020-02-17, 01:02:34 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

reed

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #85 on: 2020-02-17, 05:18:08 PM »

I personally think that one of the most powerful tools we have to adapt to climate change is simply mailing our grex seed back and forth, North and South, east-west too. I think it swaps genes rapidly and allows for rapid adaptive change. It also I think automatically builds in a lot of epigenetic change, transgressive hybridization and so forth. For the last decade or so Joseph has been a source of this kind of diversity. We can also get this affect by attending local seed swaps. As long as the varieties are different, once mixed some of these adaptive processes should kick in and the potential for something good like transgressive hybridization to occur is there. 
I agree and though I'm loath to shell out the money I'm not above purchasing seed from the big seed companies , not just heirloom, or what they call OP. One catalog I have right now has a number of bush green beans that have lots of disease resistances listed  but that's just a bonus as they are all DTM of less than fifty days. I'm not that into bush beans for various reasons but a grex that could mature fast enough to plant corn after is very appealing. My corn is selected for 90-ish days to fully dry and matures fine if planted late June or even later.  Also I can plant some of my pole beans un-trellised to intermingle with the bush and perhaps get some of that earlier maturing and or resistances moved into them.

Also disease resistant, bushy squash are attractive especially if they have comparatively short maturity. Similar with tomatoes. And I like tossing F1s in my mixes. Cause of the cost I generally focus on one, maybe two crops per season and once I'v done so I don't so it again for that crop. I spent easily $100 on corn and mixed it all up with Joseph's, Carol's and Dave Christensen's plus some from GRIN and a couple friends from HG. Did the same type thing with musk and water melons, I even keep seed from those at road side stands if I really like them.

I'm actually working on a successive/inter-planted arrangement with corn and beans that depends greatly on short season maturity of both. Bush beans planted first are picked and used primarily to can for green beans. After most of the harvest vines are chopped back a little and separated good between the rows. A few beans are left on for seed and corn planted between the bean rows. When corn is a foot or so tall the bean seeds are ready and the vines are just left to shade the ground and rot. If corn is planted first after it tassels and starts to mature good some bottom  leaves are removed and a couple pole beans planted by each stalk. As the corn matures more and the vines start up the stalks more leaves are removed. Last year I even got dry beans that way, well after the corn was harvested.

Our local seed swaps are pretty dismal unfortunately.

Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #86 on: 2020-02-19, 12:42:18 PM »
Steph: Thanks for the articles about transgressive segregation. I have noticed this among the interspecies squash hybrids. The "hopeful monsters" are wonderful to day-dream about. I might notice it among the interspecies tomatoes, but for them being so dramatically divergent to start with.
« Last Edit: 2020-02-19, 12:46:55 PM by Joseph Lofthouse »

Steph S

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #87 on: 2020-02-19, 01:56:48 PM »
Yeah - the work on 'hopeful monsters' is really heartening.  It speaks to my incurable optimism at a very deep level. ;)  (and the 'hopeless monsters' theory is pretty musty and dark).
Working with interspecies crosses, your probability of transgressive segregation is naturally even greater than the general occurrence of antagonistic QTL's (which is pretty good at 63%).  I think it was Dar Jones who first put the idea in my head, that your chances of getting something unusual are better with a wide cross - parents as dissimilar as possible, different genetic background.   And Tom Wagner described the effect of crossing unstable generations, being a magnifier for diversity.   There is also some other work I don't have to hand at the moment, which iirc found a higher incidence of transposing elements in crosses of unstable (heterozygous) parents.  All of those factors weigh into the hopeful potential in our crops, especially if we can continue to exchange seed and cross-pollinate around the globe.  And especially in your landrace breeding too, where they're set to intercross freely instead of maintaining stable lines.  Just a ton of hopeful potential, well worth the effort!




William S.

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #88 on: 2020-02-19, 05:21:46 PM »
https://www.nytimes.com/1977/05/14/archives/upstate-scientists-is-trying-to-breed-a-tomato-that-can-stand-the.html

The frosty tomatoes these scientists found back in the 70s was an example of interspecies tomato hybrids with transgressive segregation- the F2 had some individuals with better frost tolerance than either parent.
« Last Edit: 2020-02-19, 05:44:33 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Steph S

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Re: Climate Change Breeding
« Reply #89 on: 2020-02-20, 11:11:14 AM »
Here is an example from two tomatoes with (I guess!) sufficiently divergent parentage.   This was a cross of Stupice X Black Cherry.   Black Cherry has the typical cluster structure for cherries - one long single truss, while Stupice has a branched infloresence, and a regular set of 12 fruit per cluster.   The F2 selection (first pic) has a cluster structure and size like the Stupice parent.   However in the F3, I suddenly got a bunch of plants with much larger clusters.   The one in the second pic had cluster size of around 40 blossoms and set over 30 fruit per.  Basically a multiflora - a transgressive pheno cw both parents.  Five out of six F3's had cluster size bigger than either parent.   The black one that was carried forward (third pic) has around 24 blossoms per cluster and set about 20 fruit per.
Obviously there is no guarantee that the transgressive trait will be one that you're looking for, this trait of cluster size just happens to be very physically obvious and unmistakeable so it's a good example.   
As regards earliness, I did have plants that were earlier than either parent in some generations, but mostly by only a few days.  Mark in Alaska made the point to me that you have to keep selecting for earliness in every generation.   In my experience this observation is true.  When you select away from  the absolute earliest because of some other trait, or if you don't keep track of earliness compared to a standard reference parent plant, you can easily misplace that slight advantage as a trade off for some other trait - better fruit quality or plant health for example.   I have drifted away from strictly quantifying earliness, but it is something I will have to revisit.