Author Topic: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming  (Read 1080 times)

William S.

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« Last Edit: 2022-02-23, 08:01:46 PM by William S. »
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Diane Whitehead

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #1 on: 2022-02-23, 09:52:49 PM »
I wouldn't mind growing it if the added genes were from blueberries, but they are from snapdragons, so I won't.
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William S.

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Andrew Barney

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #3 on: 2022-02-24, 07:41:50 AM »
I wouldn't mind growing it if the added genes were from blueberries, but they are from snapdragons, so I won't.

Curious as to why that makes a difference?

Im probably not interested,  but not because its GMO, and not because I think there is a conflict with open source breeding,  or any ethical concern. I don't have any problems with those in theory.
« Last Edit: 2022-02-24, 07:44:39 AM by Andrew Barney »

William S.

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #4 on: 2022-02-24, 08:27:54 AM »
I suspect transgene engineered foods which are bred for health benefits like this one will one day get organic approval. I also suspect that methodology wise they will one day be a bit of a dinosaur given recent advances in gene editing. It seems like it is possible that this tomato will be an heirloom in another 38 years in 2058. It is funny though that it got made with snapdragon genes probably an eyeblink before a gene edit could get us the same trait in the correct place in the genome where it is in purple fleshed tomatillos using the same gene as in purple fleshed tomatillos. Which honestly might still be possible from the 14 or so species tomato complex with natural breeding.

I am curious as to precisely how it will be released in a legal sense. This curiosity is greater than normal because they are talking about releasing seeds to gardeners. I've never heard of a GMO released to gardeners though some may have been unintentionally like feral canola

When the non-GMO OSU Blue was unintentionally released it led to a flurry of breeding of blue skinned tomatoes. Even if this new GMO blue fleshed tomato is released with no patents whatsoever it wouldn't be accepted as organic nor likely by the OSSI (any time soon) though I can't speak for them. Patents though do eventually expire so eventually this will enter the public domain. Not sure when that would be!

I am bothered by the current lack of acceptance of GMOs by organic standards and would want to know what the legal framework is particularly in regard to the OSSI before I grew it or bred with it as I consider myself to be breeding for organics and OSSI and if they won't accept it I might as well not waste the time and isolation gardens on it.

If I grew it, I would need to super isolate it, maybe at my parent's place. Or I might be tempted to just buy some fruit, save the seed (if legal to do so), dry it down, seal it, and freeze it for the next couple decades to preserve the option of breeding with it later.

Also curious over how it would interact genetically. With the bicolor flesh gene would we get those kinds of spectacular patterns? How about a blue / yellow/white bicolor? Would it interact favorably with the various skin patterning genes? Wonder what the various possibilities for genetic expression are?

In terms of legal framework what would happen if you crossed it intentionally or unintentionally with an existing OSSI variety of tomato?

One future concern is that it would make tomato seed swapping (which is currently a lot of fun) just a lot more perilous in terms of contamination. The fact that I really like tomatoes with higher natural outcrossing rates doesn't help either because the contamination could quickly spread. There could easily be the same sort of breeding flurry with this as there was for the blue skinned tomato which could spread contamination even in plants not expressing the trait because as they explain on their website, they've inserted three genes for the deep purple flesh two snapdragon genes and an arabidopsis regulator gene. So you could for instance, get just the arabidopsis gene without noticing that a line was contaminated but then later genetic testing could lead to a lot of organic decertification etc.  Eventually we just might not care about that (decades from now) but I think in the near future ~20 years or so we will probably collectively care a great deal. One problem being that some will almost certainly not care about those concerns and will breed with it whatever the legal status because it is a very shiny new trait and almost impossible to regulate once you transfer it to home gardeners.
« Last Edit: 2022-02-24, 08:49:25 AM by William S. »
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Andrew Barney

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #5 on: 2022-02-24, 11:34:23 AM »
I suspect transgene engineered foods which are bred for health benefits like this one will one day get organic approval. I also suspect that methodology wise they will one day be a bit of a dinosaur given recent advances in gene editing. It seems like it is possible that this tomato will be an heirloom in another 38 years in 2058. It is funny though that it got made with snapdragon genes probably an eyeblink before a gene edit could get us the same trait in the correct place in the genome where it is in purple fleshed tomatillos using the same gene as in purple fleshed tomatillos. Which honestly might still be possible from the 14 or so species tomato complex with natural breeding.

I am curious as to precisely how it will be released in a legal sense. This curiosity is greater than normal because they are talking about releasing seeds to gardeners. I've never heard of a GMO released to gardeners though some may have been unintentionally like feral canola

When the non-GMO OSU Blue was unintentionally released it led to a flurry of breeding of blue skinned tomatoes. Even if this new GMO blue fleshed tomato is released with no patents whatsoever it wouldn't be accepted as organic nor likely by the OSSI (any time soon) though I can't speak for them. Patents though do eventually expire so eventually this will enter the public domain. Not sure when that would be!

I am bothered by the current lack of acceptance of GMOs by organic standards and would want to know what the legal framework is particularly in regard to the OSSI before I grew it or bred with it as I consider myself to be breeding for organics and OSSI and if they won't accept it I might as well not waste the time and isolation gardens on it.

If I grew it, I would need to super isolate it, maybe at my parent's place. Or I might be tempted to just buy some fruit, save the seed (if legal to do so), dry it down, seal it, and freeze it for the next couple decades to preserve the option of breeding with it later.

Also curious over how it would interact genetically. With the bicolor flesh gene would we get those kinds of spectacular patterns? How about a blue / yellow/white bicolor? Would it interact favorably with the various skin patterning genes? Wonder what the various possibilities for genetic expression are?

In terms of legal framework what would happen if you crossed it intentionally or unintentionally with an existing OSSI variety of tomato?

One future concern is that it would make tomato seed swapping (which is currently a lot of fun) just a lot more perilous in terms of contamination. The fact that I really like tomatoes with higher natural outcrossing rates doesn't help either because the contamination could quickly spread. There could easily be the same sort of breeding flurry with this as there was for the blue skinned tomato which could spread contamination even in plants not expressing the trait because as they explain on their website, they've inserted three genes for the deep purple flesh two snapdragon genes and an arabidopsis regulator gene. So you could for instance, get just the arabidopsis gene without noticing that a line was contaminated but then later genetic testing could lead to a lot of organic decertification etc.  Eventually we just might not care about that (decades from now) but I think in the near future ~20 years or so we will probably collectively care a great deal. One problem being that some will almost certainly not care about those concerns and will breed with it whatever the legal status because it is a very shiny new trait and almost impossible to regulate once you transfer it to home gardeners.

I agree with you. I don't understand why modern GE crops with increasing accuracy of targeted genes should conflict with organic or OSSI "standards". In theory they are a perfect compliment and I believe someday despite heavy pushback in the beginning that we WILL have open source or organically grown GE crops.

Im also not sure why a snapdragon gene should matter over blueberries. I can understand if it came from a fish that lives in the arctic or some other animal.

Having said that though... I will be the first to jump on board of growing a Mango tree that has the fish gene to keep it from freezing in the winter.

PaddyMc or PaddyMac has already bred tomatoes with colored flesh using natural methods! He said he would send me seeds, but must have forgot. If you can get seeds I am highly interested in that one! I love the marbled effect!

Not as deep purple as the GMO ones though.

This is the coolest tomato picture i know of named "FY 1-1" by a fellow who goes by "PaddyMc".
Lunar Eclipse - Lithium Sunset x Indigo Rose 

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/641/21820692358_189563196c_c.jpg 
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=34043



Maybe someone should replicate the Lithium Sunset x Indigo Rose cross and see if the same combo shakes out.
« Last Edit: 2022-02-24, 11:38:40 AM by Andrew Barney »

William S.

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #6 on: 2022-02-24, 11:50:46 AM »
Looks red to me- the interior pigmented flesh on the paddymc cross. Might just be the photo.

Check out this blue skinned bicolor photo https://renaissancefarms.org/product/alices-dream-tomato/ and this one which is an old heirloom bicolor https://renaissancefarms.org/product/pineapple-tomato/ to my eye at least all three look roughly the same on the interior color.

I think we should systematically cross the blue skinned tomatoes with as many wild species of as many wild accessions as possible.

I think the Oregon state lab might be working on it. They have more info and access / time. But that would be my basic approach. Cross with as much wild diversity as possible see if it triggers the right promoter gene somewhere. I kind of probably will do that anyway but I am not actively searching for a promotor that would probably be a big job I just like blue skinned tomatoes. My wife got her degree there at OSU and I took a few classes with her including plant genetics and then Indigo Rose came out and it was the first I had heard of it. I think Indigo Rose is one of the tomatoes that launched me into tomato addiction. I found Brad Gates not long after and bought a bunch of his for my mom.

I would think with as many domestic tomatoes have been crossed with the blue skinned that it isn't likely to find it there.
« Last Edit: 2022-02-24, 08:10:53 PM by William S. »
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Steph S

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #7 on: 2022-02-24, 07:58:10 PM »
I still don't understand the appeal or the point of jamming anthocyanins into a tomato that has a lovely spectrum of carotenoid pigments already.

The 'superfood' tag is a gimmick.   Taste will always trump high concentrations of nutrients.  We've already sampled some of those - high carotenoid carrots were gross to inedible (as rated by various tasters.) And therefore pointless, since good tasting carrots had plenty enough carotene already.  Unless the point was to reduce your food needs to one bite of carrot which makes you gag.  May as well go for a pill at that point.  :P
 I do like rainbow carrots but tbh the antho I've tasted were not my fave.   IDK if carotene/antho flavors don't make the best combo for my personal taste.  The white and yellow carrots are delicious.  Meanwhile,  I certainly appreciate anthos in flowers and fruit and beans and greens and grains.  So maybe it is a carotenoid conflict.

As regards the GMO issue, it means a patent and therefore ownership issues for the seed and any crossings that picked up the specially inserted gene.  Certainly the opposite of Open Source.  Not interested in that material, personally.  I am ethically opposed to patents on DNA.   And I don't see why the organic movement should accept it.   Certainly many organic farmers are attuned to seed sovereignty issues and to growing at least some of their own seed.   Since the novelty fruit has a good chance of contaminating their OP's with patented genes, you really wouldn't want it around.
And you're right about the gardeners - many will grow it for the novelty, but what will happen to our seed swaps? 
You would not even know if your received seed was crossed until a fruit ripened purple.  By that time bees have been all over the bunch, and your season's seed is possibly contaminated.   



William S.

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #8 on: 2022-02-24, 08:20:14 PM »
I was thinking about a four plex none of the patios are far enough apart for bee separation. If one of your neighbors in a fourplex decided to grow the new blue inside tomato and you grew something with an exserted stigma you could pick up pollen contamination. 
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nathanp

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #9 on: 2022-02-24, 09:21:09 PM »
Quote
I am bothered by the current lack of acceptance of GMOs by organic standards

I am extremely bothered by that thought that anything involving a GMO could or should ever be considered organic.  One of the reasons I grow food myself, and purchase almost entirely organic foods for my family is to avoid anything related to a GMO.  I have zero trust in the lack of transparency of the development, lack of oversight by regulators, and safety concerns that arise due to studies that are nearly all entirely funded by the developers. 


William S.

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #10 on: 2022-02-25, 06:25:46 AM »
GMO's are a complex issue. I have very little trust of the large corporations that have pushed through multiple herbicide and pesticide resistant GMO's and come up with very little else. My feeling is that this is funding source related. GMO's are doing almost nothing useful for humanity because the technology has been subsumed and controlled by corporations with no incentive to make anything with it that doesn't increase their own profits. I also think that the patenting is very problematic and not in the best interest of humanity. I would be open to publicly funded GMO's without patents.

GMO's bred for health benefits of increased nutrition like this tomato and golden rice I can sort of see. Golden rice is an interesting tale.

However I also see a nuance here. The older form of genetic engineering is like a bludgeon. You take a piece of DNA and insert it with very little control. It has the potential to mess up things up just by the clumsiness of it. Gene editing which is relatively new is much more what genetic engineering could be. It is elegant and more of a precision rewrite.

So one of my biggest beefs with this GMO tomato is it used the older technology when it is a clear candidate for the newer. Given that there are purple flesh tomatillos.

Given that the research referenced in the articles shows this GMO may actually have health benefits health concerns aren't probably going to keep this from happening. They'll probably get regulatory approval and soon and start selling this GMO tomato as the articles say.

The big question for me then is how do they plan to profit from it and control their patents especially if releasing it to home gardeners? If I couldn't save seed or breed with these legally I wouldn't even contemplate freezing some for later use. I would also be much more cautious about where I get tomato seed- seed trades might be out and small sellers might be out. Which would be extremely unfortunate.

« Last Edit: 2022-02-25, 07:17:40 AM by William S. »
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Garrett Schantz

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #11 on: 2022-02-25, 09:50:40 AM »
It seems like this tomato has over 15 years of testing or something similar.

I do agree that their editing method is dated.

The gene that they added seems to just be an anthocyanin expression gene, doubt it has a toxicity. Even if it isn't in a great placement, it shouldn't cause problems as it has been trialed.


On William's side that GMOs with health benefits are good. I would also say that increased productivity, other traits that give more health benefits, tomatoes with longer shelf life. Could lead to less food waste.

Cold hardy miracle berries would be cool.


Anyways, if seed saving / breeding is allowed, that would be cool and I wouldn't mind using them. These anthocyanin traits are typically combined with flesh color traits, but you can't see the flesh as its covered in anthocyanin / blue color.


 

Garrett Schantz

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #12 on: 2022-02-25, 09:55:46 AM »

I am curious as to precisely how it will be released in a legal sense. This curiosity is greater than normal because they are talking about releasing seeds to gardeners. I've never heard of a GMO released to gardeners though some may have been unintentionally like feral canola


https://www.bigpurpletomato.com/products

Seems like they will be offering plants to home gardeners.

Purple Tomato Plants
We have made seeds of purple tomatoes bred into elite varieties suitable for backyard gardens.


I would ask on their FAQs if seeds can be saved / what happens in the case of contamination.

https://www.bigpurpletomato.com/faqs
« Last Edit: 2022-02-25, 10:02:27 AM by Garrett Schantz »

Adrian

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #13 on: 2022-02-25, 10:29:59 AM »
Do you think it not more  easy to cross physalis ixocarpa with solanum lycopersicum than use gmo for have blue tomato?
« Last Edit: 2022-02-25, 10:33:19 AM by Adrian »

Garrett Schantz

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Re: GMO Blue Flesh Tomato Seeds Coming
« Reply #14 on: 2022-02-25, 10:35:07 AM »
Do you think it not more  easy to cross physalis ixocarpa than use  with solanum lycopersicum than use gmo for have blue tomato?

A physalis - solanum cross may require embryo rescue or something more complicated. Pretty sure this tomato has more anthocyanins as well. Physalis breeding, even within the same genus is difficult.