Author Topic: Are pink-podded peas possible?  (Read 1786 times)

J Hunch

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Are pink-podded peas possible?
« on: 2021-12-10, 06:22:40 PM »
It's probably premature to post this without actually following this cross to its logical conclusion, but is it possible that crossing a pink-flowered pea with a purple-podded pea could produce a pink-podded pea?

My reasoning is based on Rebsie Fairholm's hypothesis in her post on pink-flowered peas (http://daughterofthesoil.blogspot.com/2019/08/pink-flowered-peas-alderman-x-salmon.html). She speculated, very convincingly, that the gene which produces pink flowers inhibits delphinidin, but not other anthocyanins. Andrew Barney's excellent page on pea genes (https://openwetware.org/wiki/Pea_Database_Collaboration_Project/Pea_Genetics) mentions that the color inhibition gene which turns purple flowers white also prevents purple color in pods. Combined with the color-changing leaf blotches, this leads me to believe that anthocyanin production is controlled centrally, and genes which modify it have effects throughout the plant. Could the delphinidin-inhibiting gene act on on the anthocyanins in a normally-purple pod, leaving only the pigments for a pink color? If this were the case, it would add at least two pod colors to the pea rainbow: delphinidin-inhibited anthocyanin over green base, and over yellow base. I'm not sure if either of these colors would actually be pink, but I'd be interested in any diversity possible!

I've just discovered that peace seeds is offering pink-flowered snow peas this year (as "spring rose"), so I'm looking forward to trying out the cross as soon as I can get some ordered (probably with sugar magnolia, since it's what I have on hand). Results should show up in the F2 if they're possible. Has anyone already thought about this? Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Here's hoping that "spring rose" actually has the same pink-flowered genetics as rosakrone...

Jeremy Weiss

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #1 on: 2021-12-10, 06:57:47 PM »
Since pink is a weaker color than purple I imagine that a pink over green would be a sort of blushed green or greenish tan, and over yellow would be an orangey salmon. To get true pink, you'd first need to find a white podded pea, on with no chlorophyll produced in the pods, or that loses it as it matures (with such pods in common bean and cowpeas, it is just this side of possible.)

J Hunch

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #2 on: 2021-12-10, 07:24:30 PM »
Good point. A really bright bubblegum pink does seem unlikely. I think the best-case scenario here would be kind of a dusky grayish-pink color, like the color of the leaf blotch on pink-flowered peas.

I like the idea of a pea with a chlorophyll-free pod. White would be a nice color to have for its own sake.

Jeremy Weiss

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #3 on: 2021-12-10, 07:30:44 PM »
I have seen bubblegum pink pea SEEDS once or twice (it's what you get when a pea has the orc (orange cotyledon) gene with a fairly thick white seed coat over it). But pod, I don't know.

Steph S

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #4 on: 2021-12-11, 07:15:59 AM »
You might try looking for "Blondie" as a pale podded pea.  Mentioned at Mandy's:
https://mandysgreenhouse.com/heirloom-seeds/peas/
maybe track down a source through this link which has a picture:
https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/29203097555462248/

I saw some pics of Rosakrone, and they seem a very dark pink to me, compared with others like Tai Chung.
I didn't realize that anthocyanin inhibitors produce these colors.
Tai Chung has normal green colored pods but some of the seeds are "rosy".

Would love to see what your crosses produce. :)

Steph S

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #5 on: 2021-12-11, 07:41:35 AM »
Just browsing at Peace Seeds and I see they are also offering "Spring Blush", a "green snap pea with pink blush".
So it seems pink pods are indeed possible.  :)

gmuller

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #6 on: 2021-12-11, 02:36:18 PM »
Great ideas. I'm waiting on some pink flowered seed from an open garden i visited last month. No chance of a growout down here for quite a few months despite a La Nina year.
As a bit of a side note, has anyone noticed coloured tendrils? My hypertendril yellow snows have a distinct yellow cast, but i was wondering if other colours are out there.

J Hunch

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #7 on: 2021-12-12, 02:17:14 AM »
Pink pea seeds are encouraging! I wonder if the orange-pod gene would boost a hypothetical pink color. The orange is only on the inside of the pod, but it couldn't hurt...

Blondie is a great idea. Park Seeds did carry it in 2011, but it's not listed on their website now. I sent an email asking if they know of any extant sources. Fingers crossed.

Tai Chung looks worth growing just for the unique flower color. I wonder if its anthocyanin inhibition is flower-specific or plant-wide? This year's pea to-buy list is getting dangerously long. :)

My understanding is that the "blush"-type peas currently in circulation have some of the purple-pod genes (Pu and/or Pur), but not as many as fully purple podded peas. The ones I've seen appear to have purple flowers, and they're not uniformly pink so much as less intensely purple:



I'd never noticed before, but golden sweet peas do appear to have some yellowing on the tendrils. Neat! Makes them a lot easier to identify before they flower.

If the spring rose peas arrive soon, I'll probably be able to make the initial cross in February or March. I might try to squeeze in a growout of the F1 in the spring of 2022 if it's not getting too warm for peas by then.

Steph S

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #8 on: 2021-12-12, 08:08:02 AM »
After many hours of wading through the pink genes, I'm still not clear about the pleiotropic effects of different ones.
b seems to produce a fairly dark flower that's red and it is pleiotropic in turning axil splotches red and also removes delphinidin from testa colors.
I see it commented that cerise doesn't affect axil color so that shouldn't affect pods or seed coats.
but the combinations of recessives which produce paler pinks might reduce axil, pod or testa colors if b is involved?  IDK.
The color of Tai Chung wings is almost a salmony pink while the standard is white or close to it. My pics don't really do it justice - no UV filter. ::)
In the first pic I don't see any color in the axil, so whatever genes are involved, it is certainly much reduced if not to nothing.  BUT I checked and found a second pic taken in late September and there is a good bit of color in those axils!   Environmental effects, perhaps?  Still it is promising to see the axil splotch.



Diane Whitehead

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #9 on: 2021-12-12, 09:24:32 AM »
J Hunch:

What is the name of the green-rimmed pale purple pea in your photo?
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
cool mediterranean climate  warm dry summers, mild wet winters,  70 cm rain,   sandy soil

J Hunch

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #10 on: 2021-12-12, 05:15:43 PM »
Thanks for the genetics resources here and in the other thread! The photos in the pisum gene catalogue are great.

I didn't realize how much the pleiotropy of the different pigment-affecting genes varied. Upon closer inspection, 'b', 'beg' and 'cr' seem like good candidates for generating new pod colors, since their mechanism is noted to modify overall anthocyanin production. Genes like 'am1' (maybe the gene in tai chung?) and 'cer' look more likely to have no effect or too strong an effect. Still worth experimenting with, though, especially if environmental factors are playing a role in expression. I like your biskopens x tai chung cross -- an incomplete reduction in the pigments from 'ru' seems like it might produce a novel testa color. Or maybe you'll get the "ghost marbling" mentioned in the description for 'M'.

The green-rimmed purple pea is Spring Blush from peace seeds. I'm not sure what produces this pattern, exactly. Maybe just homozygous Pu or Pur, but not both? I grabbed the photo from oroseeds: https://oroseeds.com/shop/seeds/vegetables-spices/pea-sugar-snap-spring-blush/

In retrospect, I probably should have posted to the existing peas thread...I'll post over there in the future. :)

Jeremy Weiss

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #11 on: 2021-12-12, 05:23:49 PM »
Please forgive my ignorance (it's not like I know everything about peas) but how could one get ghost marbling from that cross if neither parent has the marmorated trait? From what I have seen Biskopens seed is solid red, Tai Chung is solid white. 

Steph S

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #12 on: 2021-12-12, 05:32:17 PM »
Actually the cross that succeeded was with Gold Harvest - M is there with the ?maybe cerise? pink flowers.
I think it would be fun to cross Tai Chung just to see what traits went into the salmon pink flower.
But I still have more questions than answers about pea flower color.
It would be nice to get novel pea testa colors!  As long as I get my red back too.  I just love those red peas.  ;)

J Hunch

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #13 on: 2021-12-12, 06:45:40 PM »
Oh, my mistake! Sorry for the confusion. I misunderstood the cross to be biskopens x tai chung (too many pale pinks on the brain...). Lacking personal familiarity with biskopens, I assumed from the faulty context that it was both ru and M. I thought that the tai chung am1(?) crossed with an M pea might produce some ghost marbling, or that the am1 might lighten the ru.

The cerise from golden harvest definitely seems unlikely to affect the ru, though.

J Hunch

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Re: Are pink-podded peas possible?
« Reply #14 on: 2022-01-29, 07:21:54 PM »
Quick update on this project -- in a peculiar turn of events, I spotted this pea flowering in the garden a couple days ago.



The spring rose peas from Peace Seedlings arrived today, but haven't been planted yet. The peas that are flowering now were planted in October. This particular trellis is my designated eating trellis, separate from my breeding trellis. I planted golden sweet, sugar magnolia, and green beauty.



It appears to be a dwarf hypertendril pea, and it has two flowers at most nodes. It flowered later than green beauty and golden sweet, but earlier than sugar magnolia, which is just now budding. My guess from chewing on the leaves is that it's not a fibrous-podded type. It has the pink axil splotches I would expect for this flower color. I guess it must have been an accidental mix-in in another packet. It's strange; I had a tricky time finding a source of seed for this trait, but it's been in my garden the whole time. This plant was already months old by the time I had the idea for the pink pod cross.

Fortuitous, though. I've made a couple crosses, and I'll make a few more once I have more buds to work with. I'll try to get some F1 seeds in the ground as soon as they've reached mature size.