Author Topic: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas  (Read 2938 times)

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #30 on: 2021-11-29, 03:07:01 PM »
Given the inpending likely teaching job I've passed on stewardship of my crops for the co-op. However with the stipilation that I will try to grow them if no one else steps up.

Also I just got in the mail from wild boar farms: Brad's atomic grape, atomic fusion, kryptonite, and atomic sunset.
« Last Edit: 2021-11-30, 05:37:21 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #31 on: 2021-11-29, 08:53:33 PM »
OK been doing some spreadsheet thinking. This here might be what I want to plant.

Maybe

The one fruity promiscuous block
 galapagense and habrochaites LA2329 crossing block
Yellow Grex direct seeded block
MMS X BH block
Everything else block
Salmon bicolor promiscuous no off taste probably not obligate outcrossing block
Iron Lady Crossing Block at the house or just make deliberate crosses in greenhouse before planting




Number               Instructions        2022 Tomato Seed To Plant

1              ALL         Little Pumpkins (Promiscuous project)

2              ALL         blue bicolor mms x bh f1 OR add to Grex and grow F2

3              ALL         the one! Exserted open persimmon tropical 2021 (I plan a huge grow out in 2022 then distribution after)

4              hybrids look for Blue Gold first tomato 12 seeds 2017

5              hybrids look for DS EXSERTED pl red any rl seedling a cross!!! 2021

6              hybrids look for Big Hill hopefully crossed with blue ambrosia 2018

7              hybrids look for Blue Ambrosia good exsertion daubed with pollen mix likely also 2019

8              LA2329 Hybrid   Big Hill LA2329 Crossing block 2021- substantial amount of seed

9              LA2329 Hybrid   Exserted tiger LA2329 crossing block 2021

10           LA2329 Hybrid   favorite promiscuous bicolor from LA2329 Crossing block

11           LA2329 Hybrid   MMS from LA2329 crossing block NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION

12           LA2329 Hybrid   open and exserted plant that had empty fruits till end of season in la2329 crossing block 2021

13           LA2329 Hybrid   promiscuous not exserted la2329 crossing block

14           LA2329 Hybrid   promiscuous plant slightly inserted only three fruits at end of season maybe 20-40 seeds but doesn’t feel like much LA2329 crossing block

15           One       Amethyst Cream

16           One       Aztek

17           One       Bosque Bronze sample original packet

18           One       Coyote

19           One       Green Berkeley Tie Die

20           One       Grushovka original packet

21           One       Kibitz original packet

22           One       Pink Furry Boar tomatoes 2014

23           One       reticulate mutation of earls jagodka 2021 NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION!

24           One       Subartic plenty original packet

25           One       Sweet Cherriette original packet

26           One       Terrior Galapagense

27           One       Weight in Gold original Packet 2020

28           One       White Shah

29           One       Wild Zebra packed for 2020 original packet from Joseph

30           One       Dwarf Orange Cream Original Packet Packed for 2022

31           One       Dwarf Galen's Yellow Original Packet

32           One       Dwarf Desert Star

33           One       Dwarf Bendigo Moon

34           One       Dwarf Kelly Green

35           One       Dwarf Saucy Mary Green Striped

36           One       Dwarf Sunny's Pear original packet

37           One       Banana Toes

38           One       Kryptonite

39           One       Atomic Grape Sort of a green fleshed striped blue skinned bicolor

40           One       Atomic Fusion

41           One       Atomic Sunset

42           TEN        LA 1410 Galapagense

43           TEN        Iron lady F1 and f2

44           TEN        LA2329 Grown in 2021

45           TEN        exserted promiscuous salmon bicolor no off taste probably not true obligate 2021

46           TEN        R18 will be g3 2021

47           Yellow Grex        bicolor mms x bh f1 2021

48           Yellow Grex        Blue bicolor big with spots beautiful (sister line to MMS) NOT FOR Distribution 2019

49           Yellow Grex        Blue Gold Tressette sausage to chile shaped good blue!!! 2020 NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION

50           Yellow Grex        Exserted Orange Grown in 2021 Isolated

51           Yellow Grex        Sungold descendents F3 + Josephs

52           Yellow Grex        Yellow Tasty Indigo Kumquat F3 (Originally from Mike in California)

53           Yellow Grex        Yellow Tiger 2019 NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION

54           Yellow Grex        Yellow Tiger 2020 Volunteer NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION

55           Yellow Grex        Blue Gold Tressette 2019 NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION

56           Yellow Grex        Bluest Bicolor NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION parent of MMS 2020

57           Yellow Grex        Brad X Yellow Pear (Chariot) F3 round and Yellow

58           Yellow Grex        double dose blue golden tressette F2 NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION 2020

59           Yellow Grex        Indigo Kumquat F3 seven seeds

60           Yellow Grex        Indigo kumquat original packet from Mike

61           Yellow Grex        MMS Ancestor 2019

62           Yellow Grex        Orange Blue Large NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION 2020

63           Yellow Grex        Pale Yellow F2 with tiny hint of blue 2019

64           Yellow Grex        Pale Yellow Half Strength Blue 2019

65           Yellow Grex        Sungold F3

66           Yellow Grex        Sungold f3 generation in packet

67           Yellow Grex        Ugly Cracking very domestic possible F1 bicolor 2019

68           Yellow Grex        Yellow hint of blue F2 2019

 

Instructions to self: One really means a clump but in one pot, Yellow Grex means dump it into a bag together mix and direct seed,                       

  ALL means plant them all,                         

Ten means plant ten of them not in a clump in separate pots,                   

 Hybrids look for means plant them all in flats and look for hybrids (only keep ~four non-hybrids and only if warranted, that is don’t keep any from the off tasting Promiscuous project elites unless they had good rates of hybrids and if so, could still just keep the hybrids!),                           

22 packets to go in Yellow Grex

 

 

 
« Last Edit: 2021-11-29, 09:07:03 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Nicollas

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #32 on: 2021-11-30, 05:18:43 AM »
Quote
3              ALL         the one! Exserted open persimmon tropical 2021 (I plan a huge grow out in 2022 then distribution after)

Yeah ! \o/

Garrett Schantz

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #33 on: 2021-12-25, 10:50:34 PM »
Starting some tomatoes indoors solely for hybridization attempts / F1 seeds for the next growing season.

1. Woolly Kate - Want an F1 with Exserted Orange

2. Polar Star

3. Wild Gem

4. Purple Smudge - Want an F1 with Exserted Orange

5. Exserted Orange - Mainly using this as a base parent - donating exserted flowers to other varieties and mixing them along the way. Hopefully ending up with another base.

6. Wildling Panamorous - from Forgotten Heirlooms: From Joseph Lofthouse, a cross between a domesticated tomato and 2 wild tomato species. Good stock for breeding projects. Smaller beefsteak with a nice sweet/acid tomato flavor. Unsure of what this is exactly, the Wildling Panamorous from The Experimental Farm Network are a hybrid population. This appears to be more stable? Can't say for sure, could have been a mistake.

7. Neandermato

8. Joseph's Peruvianum - Growing a few of these to help out the "Odd Peruvianum" which didn't have any purpling on the fruit - granted the offspring may already have purple fruits.

9. Odd Peruvianum - Odd type that I grew, had a lot of traits that I liked. Grew better than all of the other Peruvianums in the cold basement - I posted a bunch of images elsewhere.


Exserted Orange should be interesting to grow indoors! Probably going to trim it a bunch like I did with Pimpinellifolium x Habrochaites.

Some of these are quite early, could try for F2 seed if all goes well.


"Odd Peruvianum" came from one of Experimental Farm Network's Peruvianums. Posting a seed comparison with Joseph's mix. Plastic bags make comparing seeds easier.

Moved Wild Gem, Purple Smudge and Exserted Orange and Neandermato into nursery tree pot. Buried stems quite a bit on all of them - some were leggy due to germinating before I came home from vacation before.

Planted a mixed cell of Alberto Shatters and Wild Currant tomato from Peru, a cell of lutescent and a cell of island sunrise tomato.

Planted square pots of chmielewski wild tomato, Galapagos Wild Tomato Minor Type 2 (HRseeds) and Galapagos Island Tomato Type 3.

These other varieties should mostly be at transplanting height at the same time that the others have fruited / flowered. The galapagos tomatoes can take up to 70 - 120 days before they ripen up / begin to flower.

I'm using most of these as pollen donors to Exserted Orange which is early enough. I may cut the others down and use them as grafting material.

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #34 on: 2021-12-25, 11:12:46 PM »
That is fun! Are you emasculating the exserted orange before it releases pollen? I ask because in the summer outside I don't emasculate my exserted varieties, but I do sometimes dust stigmas if I have time. In the winter inside and in the greenhouse, I seem to get away with emasculating without flowers drying out.
« Last Edit: 2021-12-25, 11:14:41 PM by William S. »
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Garrett Schantz

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #35 on: 2021-12-26, 04:00:42 AM »
That is fun! Are you emasculating the exserted orange before it releases pollen? I ask because in the summer outside I don't emasculate my exserted varieties, but I do sometimes dust stigmas if I have time. In the winter inside and in the greenhouse, I seem to get away with emasculating without flowers drying out.

Yeah, probably going to try and emasculate the flowers. I usually have better luck emasculating larger tomato varieties like beefsteaks.

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #36 on: 2022-01-30, 09:33:50 PM »
Of the OSSI dwarfs I've gotten seed for I am particularly excited about using the following for cross mothers:

Dwarf Gloria's treat because it is a potato leaf yellow and red marbled bicolor. With my blue bicolor lines I could add blue skin and probably have an earlier blue dwarf bicolor.

Dwarf Saucy Mary because it is 65 DTM and a striped green when ripe dwarf. Fun source of stripes and I haven't managed to cross in green when ripe yet.

Dwarf desert star because potato leaved and early. Yellow.

Dwarf Galen's yellow because potato leaved and early. Notably a full sibling to desert star. Yellow.

Possible fathers could include:

 My MMS x BH F1's or F2's I am starting to think of as MMM or Mission Mountain Morning.

Exserted open fuyu persimmon flavored promiscuous project segregate

MMS

Exserted Orange

Exserted Tiger

Iron Lady F1 or F2

Purple Zebra F1

LA2329 habrochaites

LA1410 Galapagense 

I also counted and including Big Hill HX-9 descendents MMM and Exserted orange I now have 19 OSSI or OSSI descended tomatoes- 20 counting the portions of the promiscuous project descended from Big Hill. In my tomato seed collection.

« Last Edit: 2022-01-30, 09:38:38 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #37 on: 2022-04-28, 09:24:19 PM »
I am thinking that this is how I will use my 7 possible isolation areas now that time is short:

1. The house: in the raised bed: Late Blight Resistance, maybe Purple Zebra F1 + habrochaites+ pimpinillifolium + MMS + MMM F2 + R18. Then in the Greenhouse: Brown rugose fruit virus resistance pimp + chilense + MMS x BH F1 or MMM F2 with some hoped for controlled crosses in the Greenhouse as well.

2. The old, fenced garden: Insect / Arthropod Resistance LA 2329 + LA 2329 hybrids + MMM F2 + MMS + 1 promiscuous from last year's parents + LA 1410 galapagense + MMM/MMS in two slightly separate patches within the garden.

3. The back central garden where I grew BH and then MMS: a crossing block for Regular Leaf OSSI dwarfs x Exserted Potato leafs MMS and MMM F2

4. North East garden: Lofthouse G2 direct seeded. I may plant one "The One!" for Flavor improvement and as it is all the Promiscuous project. Then I will plant some corn there again.

5. The One! This will probably go where exserted orange has been growing in the North West Garden. Though am tempted to add an MMS x The One crossing block flat to it but I could just include that in the everything else garden.

6. the SW garden where I grew Payette two years ago. Maybe a Sweet Cherriette x MMM F2 crossing block? I have one fruit in the greenhouse that might be developing though it needs a tag clipped off and replaced because it is tied too tight. Or maybe this could be the MMS x The One crossing block and I could keep a pure The One garden.

7. The new fenced garden. This will be everything else lots of anthocyanin fancies, some of the One- particularly a flat where I mixed MMS x Unk and the one, some of the OSSI tomatoes, everything I am trying or growing out for seed. Hopefully all fairly nicely interspersed with MMM F2 and MMS. Probably particular rows would get some partial-isolation themes.

8. My parent's apartment. Hmm. Maybe I could do something like MMM F2 and a striped regular leaf dwarf like Dwarf Saucy Mary or some such overlooked potential cross at my parent's place. Hmm, maybe Brad's Atomic Grape and MMM F2. Or maybe all three since both would potentially lead in similar directions.
« Last Edit: 2022-04-28, 10:17:07 PM by William S. »
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Andrew Barney

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #38 on: 2022-04-29, 11:44:55 AM »
William, you amaze me with your tomato growouts and work. Sometimes I wonder if you are a little nuts like I am with the peas. I sure feel a little crazy when I put too much mental energy into it and occasionally need to remind myself to slow down.

I'm really liking the work you and Craig L.H. are doing with the tomatoes. I'm starting to think when i finally do have enough land I might like to use many of these new dwarfs to grow "heirloom" type tomatoes for the local farmers market. That will likely be years off, but it seems like a good opportunity to use the awesome resources that open source breeding can do for the commons. Might as well use it, right?

My planting that I posted about awhile back seem to be doing okay. Still fairly small seedlings, but still alive and it looks like i got all 8 groups to germinate. I planted too many on the Big Hill group, so i had to cull the ones slow to either germinate or produce true leaves. Not sure what that selection will do, if any, but it had to be done. I'm really hoping for a good tomato year. My early planted corn died with an unexpected cold snap (that had no snow cover), so that bed will be dedicated to tomatoes. I probably will need the room anyway.

Would love to get an unexpected "persimmon" tomato from the seeds you sent me, but that is probably unlikely at this stage, but i would be happy with anything unexpected and tasty.

http://opensourceplantbreeding.org/forum/index.php/topic,538.msg9465.html#msg9465

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #39 on: 2022-05-07, 02:47:36 PM »
I have been wondering about doing some more direct seeding for 2022. So I sat down with my seed collection and put together a seed mix. The theme of the seed mix was to use mainly crosses that arose in my garden. There have been a few crosses that appeared in seeds I got from others so I excluded those. I did include a small amount of Exserted Orange (a pinch) because it has spent its F2 to F4 in my garden. I feel like I ended up with a lot of Exserted red tiger and its sister line yellow tiger, and a lot of MMS, MMS ancestors, and some MMS descendants. I went pretty heavy on the unexplored F2's I saved in 2019. However it will be a mix of F1, F2, and F3 material. Should be pale yellows, yellows, bicolor yellow/red, red, and orange in the mix with a lot of anthocyanin.

I was a little disappointed with just that.

Then I found the packet of the exserted salmon promiscuous project plant's seed from last year. It had acceptable flavor with no off tastes. So I think what I will do is do a parallel row about a foot away. Will see how far the seed goes- it isn't an enormous amount, but I could see doing a third row- three rows about a foot apart from each other.

There are some packets that I could have added but did not. For instance there was a 2020 volunteer version of the yellow tiger tomato but I already planted some seed from it and it was thus in this sort of disorganized bin so I didn't bother.

I may just do one row of each and then save any leftover seed for next year's direct seeding. It is possible I will need to use direct seeding more next year as my evolving work situation might mean not starting many tomatoes from transplants. If all goes well I will have an a large amount of potato leaved bicolor MMS and MMS x BH F2 seed from crossing blocks this year which may just be perfect for direct seeding next year! I may also save some nice seed from the regular leaf plants that came from bicolors this year- which could lead to some nice things like the possibility of finding a striped blue bicolor next year from a MMS x ET cross.


2022 Direct Seeded tomato Mix
1.   Exserted Red Tiger w. best blue for stock seed 2020
2.   Exserted Orange 2021 (I went light on this)
3.   Exserted Pimpinillifolium- should have been blue golden tressette 2020
4.   Blue Bicolor MMS x BH F1 2021
5.   MMS (Mission Mountain Sunrise) Stock Seed 2021
6.   MMS 2021 Isolated
Used all the seed of the following:
7.   Pale Yellow F2 Tiny Hint of Blue 2019 (Used All)
8.   Pale Yellow Half Strength Blue 2019 F2 (Used All)
9.   Yellow Tiger 2019 F2 some with half strength blue (Used All)
10.   Pink F2 2019
11.   2019 Tomato will be F3 earliest fruit from transplant JL PL exserted x Unknown Blue, not exserted, regular leaf, bicolor, blue half strength- earliest. (MMS Ancestor or sibling line)
12.   Dry farmed direct seeded red closed flower earliest 2019 F2
13.   Red Sungold in F5 2021 – suspected a subsequent hybridization.
14.   MMS x BH 2021-2022 Winter Bicolor no Antho will be F2
15.   Bluest 2020 Bicolor (MMS ANCESTOR)
16.   Small blue F3 from Big Blue F2 red 2021
17.   F2 with blue skin, speckles, and red flesh 2019
18.   2020 orange blue large from blue ambrosia or maybe blue gold tressette?
19.   Not as blue to half blue bicolor 2020
20.   Bicolor 2021 MMS x BH F1 no antho.
21.   Red, Blue- Half Strength nicely exserted, decent size 2019
22.   2019 F2 Blue Bicolor Big w. Spots, beautiful
23.   2019 Great Big Blue Beefsteak F2 red w. blue skin.

To plant in a parallel row about a foot away:
1.   Exserted Salmon Promiscuous 2021.

One thing that this reminds me of though is that one of my important goals this year is to get some hybrid seed with some green when ripe tomatoes. I would like some more color diversity in the tomatoes in my own grex.

Edit: I added the Exserted Salmon Promiscuous into the mix and seeded about 80 row feet heavily. While I was seeding I noticed some tomato mummies from last year's direct seeding of promiscuous project bicolors. I broke one open and sprinkled the seeds into the row. Wouldn't be surprised if some volunteers are in the area and I may leave them as some more promiscuous project influence is I hope a good thing.
« Last Edit: 2022-05-11, 10:32:44 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #40 on: 2022-05-09, 09:45:49 AM »
Hi William,
   A couple of times you have mentioned using Regular/Potato Leaf as a selection mechanism.

   Is the reasoning behind this that Potato Leaf is recessive, so that when growing seed from a PL mother, any Regular Leaf seedlings must be out crosses, having picked up pollen from a RL father?

Tim DH

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #41 on: 2022-05-09, 10:02:26 AM »
Hi William,
   A couple of times you have mentioned using Regular/Potato Leaf as a selection mechanism.

   Is the reasoning behind this that Potato Leaf is recessive, so that when growing seed from a PL mother, any Regular Leaf seedlings must be out crosses, having picked up pollen from a RL father?

Tim DH

Exactly, along with exserted stigmas which are known to be a thing in potato leaf tomatoes the potato leaf recessive trait makes natural crosses obvious. So I can just plant crossing blocks with one of my potato leaf mothers and then grow out the seeds the next year and any regular leaf seedling is a hybrid with a known or unknown regular leaf father depending on what all was planted nearby.

I started doing this in 2017 which was really my first year tomato breeding. I only got a couple regular leaf seedlings, but then now in the new generation I used the child variety of that original cross and got lots of regular leaf seedlings. Even with very modest exsertion of the stigma in a very large seed lot from a not-isolated potato leaf tomato you might find a cross. A greater degree or length of style/stigma exsertion seems to make crosses more likely.

My cross of MMS x BH last year was actually or at least in part to try to create a variety that does this even better but the MMS plant I used in the crossing block last year worked so well that was likely unnecessary. Still, it may give me a larger fruited version.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #42 on: 2022-05-09, 12:15:21 PM »
Hi William,
   Thanks for this. …. Its set me off thinking in a completely new direction!

   Not that I need a new project. … and certainly not another tomato project!!

   I’ll sit on it for a few days until (hopefully) the brain fog clears. (I’m currently testing positive.) If it still seems like a good idea in a week’s time, I’ll start a new thread.

Tim DH

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #43 on: 2022-05-22, 09:18:02 PM »
I have seven crossing blocks planted and one half way planted. I will plant an ninth tomorrow after work.

Next weekend I will plant more, some of them I only planted half of the tomatoes today for fear of frost. Also I think that was about all I could plant in a day.

The one block I said half way I put in some MMS but not the Dwarf Mocha's cherry yet. It isn't big enough yet in my opinion. Also it was inside and needs to harden off. I can usually plant straight out of the greenhouse but not straight out of the basement without serious trouble. So it is in the greenhouse now.

1. Diversity garden with some MMM and MMS for crossing
2. Arthropod Resistance
3. Promiscuous direct seeding G2
4. Late Blight in bed outside, brown rugose virus resistance in GH
5. MMS x The One this is also likely to produce The One x MMS there is one MMM out there too I think.
6. MMS x Regular leaf OSSI dwarfs
7. The One + Little Pumpkins
8. MMS x Dwarf Mocha's cherry
9. MMM x Brad's Atomic grape and its sister line Atomic Fusion

If all goes well I will be harvesting a MMM F1 x Sweet Cherriette fruit sometime soon.
« Last Edit: 2022-05-22, 09:21:18 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days