Author Topic: Peas 2021  (Read 2494 times)

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
  • Karma: 15
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #30 on: 2021-07-18, 02:00:25 PM »
Andrew, you were correct.    Many of the nibbled shoots have now made a new shoot at a lower axil.   This was true for both varieties but not all shoots of either (at least, some have done so sooner).  I wonder if it will make them later, or just shorter... 


Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
  • Karma: 15
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #31 on: 2021-07-31, 01:27:48 PM »
I made my first pea cross on Thursday.  The first bloom I tried to emasculate turned out to be already pollinated so I did a second one that was more immature and basted it up with pollen.  But then last night we had thunder and downpours.  When I looked at the cross today, there is no pollen on it, for sure.
Is this like tomatoes, where you have to repeat pollen if the stigma is immature?  Should I apply pollen a second time, or is that a wasted effort?

Adrian

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 324
  • Karma: 8
    • View Profile
  • Hardiness Zone: 7b
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #32 on: 2021-07-31, 01:53:46 PM »
Andrew, you were correct.    Many of the nibbled shoots have now made a new shoot at a lower axil.   This was true for both varieties but not all shoots of either (at least, some have done so sooner).  I wonder if it will make them later, or just shorter...
If the days are long and hot they will be short and they did flower very fast.A few peas are grow again after the harvest in jully and they have did flowers but the plant was a size of 5 cm.
« Last Edit: 2021-07-31, 01:57:48 PM by Adrian »

Andrew Barney

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 540
  • Karma: 45
  • Northern Colorado, Semi-Arid Climate, USA
    • Pea Breeding, Watermelon x Citron-melon, Purple Foliage Corn, Wild Tomatoes
    • View Profile
    • My blog
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfc / Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 5b
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #33 on: 2021-07-31, 04:08:28 PM »
I made my first pea cross on Thursday.  The first bloom I tried to emasculate turned out to be already pollinated so I did a second one that was more immature and basted it up with pollen.  But then last night we had thunder and downpours.  When I looked at the cross today, there is no pollen on it, for sure.
Is this like tomatoes, where you have to repeat pollen if the stigma is immature?  Should I apply pollen a second time, or is that a wasted effort?

Yes, repeated pollen dusts are recommended. Rebsie Fairholm recommends this on her blog. Do it for a few days if you can.

If possible it is better if you can protect the style from decicating sun and heat,  and rain. Some people use little bags. I use the donating flower to form a hood which also helps keep more pollen on longer which helps to increase the amount of accepted pollen when the stigmas finally become receptive. I don't believe they are all receptive at the same time.

Here is my pea crossing technique:

https://rabbitmountainresearch.com/pea-breeding

https://keen101.wordpress.com/2017/11/10/pea-breeding-tips-2017/
« Last Edit: 2021-07-31, 04:19:26 PM by Andrew Barney »

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
  • Karma: 15
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #34 on: 2021-07-31, 04:25:00 PM »
Thanks very much Andrew.  Nice adaptation with the 'hood', I can't stop the rain!  So this is a great idea.

Thank you too Adrian for the observations.  I'll be hoping for some flowering then, without waiting for them to regrow the full height. :)

Klaus Brugger

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 62
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #35 on: 2021-08-01, 04:59:02 AM »
I only remove the keel but keep the standard and wings for protection (see page 4 here: https://www.arche-noah.at/files/kreuzungsanleitung_erbse_1.pdf).
When heavy rains were to be expected, I've sometimes additionally used sticky tape, something I once saw recommended as a standard practice for common bean crosses.
I only pollinate once, then I close the flower and leave it alone.

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
  • Karma: 15
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #36 on: 2021-08-08, 11:12:51 AM »
I did try your method for my second dab, Andrew, and got way more pollen on there than the paintbrush method.  So much better Couldn't get it to stay on as a hood though.  So it looks like my first little pod has just two peas, but that's better than none.
I also did a second cross yesterday, in a bit of a panic because Gold Harvest and Margaret McKee have stopped flowering, only the bush Capucijner is still going, and the Bulroyd Bean just opened its first flowers.  Again I got lots of pollen but couldn't keep the pollen flower on it - was extremely windy too and as likely to break the mother flower by adding weight I thought.  And then of course we had a thunderstorm last night.  Pollen gone.
Looks like a couple of dry days after tonight's showers, at least if I could trust the forecast... well it may be window enough or not.   So the next time, I'll try your method, Klaus, with keeping the petals on the mother plant and closing with a bit of tape.  Hoping that bush keeps flowering a bit longer.
I do have another set of peas coming on which I planted June 30th for the anticipated late flowering, for round three.
Great technique improvements, guys.   Really appreciate you sharing. :)

gmuller

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 109
  • Karma: 14
  • Bendigo, Australia. 515mm rain - if we are lucky
    • View Profile
    • Useful Seeds
    • Email
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #37 on: 2021-09-22, 10:45:43 PM »
Hi guys,
dragged out my breeding collection after reading josep lofthouse's landrace book, and got re-inspired.
I've got a lovely hyperdwarf half red snow that I did a desultory growout of last austral spring, that is stable for colour, fibre and dwarfing, but had variable flavour. I'm replanting 30 seeds from the best flavoured one for another reselection this year - working title proto'Asteroid'.
Also going to grow out selections from my hypertendril yellow snow, which was segregating for yellow and height last spring. Hoping for a tall, double flowered resistant hypertendril yellow snow - working title proto'Venus' .
My big problem is a heavy infestation of pea weevil last year which is probably overwintered in my gardens.
I think I'm going to have insect net the beds to exclude them, so my seed doesn't get infected.
My other strategy was to plant a lure crop of early flowering peas, let them pod up, then pull them and compost in bags, hopefully with the next generation of beetles inside.

Pic is the pods of last year's protoAsteroid selection.

Many of the new varieties everyone is mentioning above are unlikely to be available here, so I better breed some if i want  'em.
GM

Andrew Barney

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 540
  • Karma: 45
  • Northern Colorado, Semi-Arid Climate, USA
    • Pea Breeding, Watermelon x Citron-melon, Purple Foliage Corn, Wild Tomatoes
    • View Profile
    • My blog
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfc / Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 5b
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #38 on: 2021-09-22, 11:22:05 PM »
Glad to see you back Greg!

I got the opportunity to grow the first commercial red-podded pea 'Ruby Beauty' bred by the Kapuler's at Peace Seedlings. I was actually fairly unimpressed with it. But it also gave me hope that my breeding line might be worth still continuing to work on. I was able to get an F2 / F3 cross with my red podded line and my best tasting purple line 'Midnight Snow'. Midnight snow is pretty tasty and has wrinkled seeds, but it does not have completely homozygous purple covering. The F2 pods were splotched purple unfortunately, but the seeds segregated pretty much 50% wrinkled seeds. I'm planning on only planning to plant the wrinkled seeded ones in hopes that they have much improved flavor and sweetness but hoping the yellow pod gene reapears and that the purple pods will double up again. If not, i may need to backcross with the red-podded breeding line where the colors are great and then reselect for wrinkled seeds.

It's tough sometimes to stay motivated. Especially when life get complicated and in the way and when you have major gardening failures.

Except for peas, this year has been mostly a failure for me in many gardening endeavors. Oh, well, live and learn.

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
  • Karma: 15
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #39 on: 2021-09-23, 08:56:32 AM »
I haven't seen pea weevil yet, thank goodness, but I did get some 'pea moth' damage on a few of the dry peas, for the first time.   From what I read, the cure for that is to cultivate and expose pupae that have dropped to the ground.  Will be looking for them when I prep to plant garlic.
My biggest problem for sure has been moose.  One yearling has been lurking around the whole summer, and a lot of effort required to patch and try to protect the tall peas.  The ones that were chewed down earlier have been flowering and setting the past couple of weeks, but unfortunately a second group of moose arrived a couple of days ago and took most of them.   So instead of a crop I'm getting the gleanings.  >:(
The good news is that they didn't do as much damage (or any in some cases) to the short peas, and that was the reason for breeding in the first place, to have a more feasible crop which is also early and may finish before the usual moose visitors in the fall.
I also had wind trouble - one big trellis blew over early on and got righted okay with minimal damage, but hurricane Larry took all the trellises down except for one that's built out of stumps.   Again some could be righted and peas that survived being blown down also got brownie points for their gumption.

So here is what I thought of my trial peas, in a much hotter than normal summer, with the caveat that some got badly moosed and/or trellises blew over, and not all survived it.  Some of these grown from just a few peas.

Tall Snow Peas or dual purpose snow/dry:

Calvert:    A dual purpose pea by reputation (I haven't tasted dry and won't have enough this year).  rated tops on almost every scale.  Great tasting, crunchy and sweet.  Early to flower and prolific.  Setting and growing pods quickly.   Mostly 4-5 blue-speckled dimpled peas of reasonable size per large pod.   Tall: can't really evaluate the height since moose topped them and took half the crop, but they produced fairly low on the plant as well.  Not affected by the hot weather.  Valiant attempt to regrow was quashed by second moose chomp. I will definitely grow again, even just as a snow pea these are great.
Brazilian:  Another dual purpose.   Later to set than Calvert and not as prolific.  Not as sweet.  Very broad pods had fewer and smaller seeds than Calvert.  The seeds are a brown maple and look like a good dry pea, but so small, cw the large investment in pod. 
Corne de Belier:  didn't get to taste one.  Seeds were old, plants were weak, either failed to produce or failed to survive moose.
Amplissimo cross:  This was not an F1, must have been an older cross with a broad podded snow pea.  Flowers white.  Segregating for several characters including number of peas and filling or not filling the pods (one plant produced very few peas in very broad pods, others were well filled with 6-7 peas and narrower pods etc.)  Peas also segregating for wrinkled or smooth seed, but all of them were smaller than the Amplissimo parent. Pods OTOH were consistently much larger than Amplissimo parent.  These were early, prolific, bearing up and down the plant, continuing to grow and bloom after being moose mangled and blown over.   Very good fresh eating rating second after Calvert. 
Shorter Snow/Dual peas:
Tai Chung:  About 4 ft tall and very prolific due to short internodes.  Lovely pink flowers.  Quick to set and grow pods; narrow pods well filled with 6-7 round smooth peas, to about 2-21/2 inch long. Not so sweet and very stringy at full size, not stringy at 1.5" size.  Okay for a stir fry snow but not a primo raw eating pea for me.  Those that survived moose also survived being blown over and are still flowering and setting.  I greatly admire the growth habit productivity and earliness, and tried a late cross with Biskopens but sadly the cross was devoured.  Would like to try these as a dry pea; will grow again.
Kent Blue: Short: 2-2.5 ft. Very promising growth habit with pairs of flowers from top to bottom and rapid set of small well filled pods 5-6 peas are small round and blue speckled.  Tasted as a young snow pea I thought they were very strong tasting and not sweet = vile.  Moose really destroyed these and I only got a few pods to glean; they did not survive the attack to regrow.   Will try again for the good looking habit.
Shiraz purple seeded: 2-2.5 ft.  Setting in the top 1/2 ft.  These pods were soon set but smaller than last year's shiraz and did not fill quickly, remaining flat a long time.  IDK if this is due to lack of heat tolerance.   As a snow pea not sweet or tasty.  I was waiting for the pods to fill so I could see if they returned purple seed again, but moose took the whole works to the ground so no answer to that moot question. 
Snap Peas:
Sugar Sprint: very small plant maybe 2 ft tops, early flowering and quick to set and grow them but did not produce many pods.  They were delicious though, apparently stringless?  Sweet and crunchy throughout.
Sugar Magnolia:  these grew to about 4ft before moose bitten.  They were weak and not happy looking plants cw others, maybe old seed?  or heat intolerant.  Not very tolerant of being bitten down either although they did regrow and make a few more flowers and pods.  Pods were small and extremely  slow to grow and fill.  They were not sweet and barely made a morsel.
I made a cross between SM and SSpr which took, and got three F1 peas to try for something sweeter in a purple snap.
Magnolia Cross: These F1 seeds from a cross in Nicky's garden produced mostly green pods, some splashed with purple (one plant).  All pods had parchment so it must've crossed with a shelly. 
Dry Peas candidates - tall
King Tut:  6ft +.  Fairly early to flower. Prolific, fast growing purple pods well filled up to 6 peas.  Seems heat tolerant.  Moose took the lion's share.
Clarke's Beltony Blue: about 6 ft.  Tied Calvert for earliest bloom on the trellis, and soon set a great number of small purple pods which filled very slowly and few large speckled  peas per pod.  Maybe heat intolerant? as most pods less than 4 peas (maximum 5 rarely seen).
Irish Prean:  7ft + before moose took them; not regrowing.  Very very late peas.  Similar to Bulroyd Bean, they shoot up some sturdy large vigorous stems when the other peas are starting to go down.  They almost seem designed to get the boost from other peas being done, and maybe the best way to plant would be a foot apart among earlier peas, to take over the trellis for a late crop.  I got two pods which I harvested pre-emptively when green mature and are still drying.
Bulroyd Bean: crop plants on two trellises.  Survived blowing down on one trellis and moose bites on the other.  First blooms 66 days from seed and about 6ft high on the plant.  These late peas are very large and a sumptuous dry pea but too tall and late.   Crossed to bush Capucijner: 4 F1 seeds.
Biskopens: crop plants 2 trellises.  Some losses due to the first blowdown but excellent regrowth and flowering on the moosebitten patch.  First blooms 56 days from seed.  This is late but not so late cw BB and IP!  Dry pea favorite: Still too late and tall for my environment.   Crossed with Gold Harvest: 2 F1 seeds.
Dry Peas - short
Margaret McKee: about 2 1/2 ft tall.  Earliest to flower at 40 days from planting.  Small parchment pods to max 4 peas per pod, not very well filled - maybe heat intolerant? Finished flowering after 19 days.  Seeds are a yellow-green maple with black hilum, slightly smaller than GH or BC.   Yield was 3.8 seeds per planted pea. 
Gold Harvest:  about 2 1/2 ft tall.  Flowering at 42 days from planting and finished after 17 days.  Small parchment pods max 4 per pod, not very well filled - maybe heat intolerant?  Seeds an orange maple with black hilum.  Yield was 3.6 seeds per planted pea.
Bush Capucijner:  about 3 1/2 ft tall.  Flowering at 44 days from planting and continuing to produce new flowers from lower nodes for some time.  Seeds are a yellow-green maple with black hilum, mostly rectangular/cube shaped, large.  max 5 and mostly 3-5 peas per pod. Thicker pods; parchment.
Red Fox Carlin:  about 2 ft tall.  Promising growth habit and looked to be prolific until moose devastated.  Did not regrow, but a few pods were gleaned for another trial.  Small parchment pods with seed maximum 6 per pod.

Aside from the hot weather and lossy pest moose, I wondered if low yield was also a result of planting densely.  Most of my peas were planted in a band at 24 per linear foot, except for one trellis where they were single file.  I had a few spare Biskopens planted in the single row and I thought they yielded better than the densely planted ones.  It made me think I should plant single rows next time.  What do you think?


Andrew Barney

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 540
  • Karma: 45
  • Northern Colorado, Semi-Arid Climate, USA
    • Pea Breeding, Watermelon x Citron-melon, Purple Foliage Corn, Wild Tomatoes
    • View Profile
    • My blog
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dfc / Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: 5b
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #40 on: 2021-09-23, 10:54:15 AM »
Yes,  thankfully no weevil problems here. Though i got some weevil infested seeds from Israel. I did Joseph's method of freezing, thawing,  freezing,  thawing. I didn't plant the most infested seed this year just in case though,  but I'm confident that the freezing thawing method should work well. But now I can see how easily a foreign pest can be introduced. No one grows peas commercially anywhere in my state except for market gardeners at the farmers market, so that probably helps so that no pests have established here (that I know of).

I've started thinning out my pea plantings a bit more myself to get better yield and less competition for resources.

I was particularly pleased with the new dwarf yellow breed by Calvin lamborn and his son and the new yellow from the kapulers at peace seedlings. I can totally see how dwarf peas are the way to go if breeding for the average gardener, perhaps even myself. Less cost for trellises.

gmuller

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 109
  • Karma: 14
  • Bendigo, Australia. 515mm rain - if we are lucky
    • View Profile
    • Useful Seeds
    • Email
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #41 on: 2021-09-23, 04:25:06 PM »
Hi Andrew,
been busy setting up a new house and garden and restarting my PhD, and running my online seed shop, so somewhat busy this last couple of years.

The pea weevil overwinters in the soil, lays eggs on developing pods, which burrow into the developing seed, develop, then drill a neat circular hole in the pea wall, then emerge from the dry seed. a single freeze should kill any that haven't emerged from the dry peas. The issue for me is if i get an infected seed crop I can't sell any of it - there is no reliable way I've found to ensure that the visually undamaged peas don't actually have beetles inside them. Customers would be unimpressed with seed with huge holes emerging in them even if all the beetles are dead. 
I think the beetles arrived a couple of years ago in commercial pea straw mulch - industrial famers don't really care they just spray the heck out of their crops as a solution.
Seems I was ahead of the curve breeding purple and yellow snows - should have exploited it more!
gm

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
  • Karma: 15
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #42 on: 2021-12-11, 08:26:37 PM »
Been reading about pea genetics all day - again! Hoping it will start to sink in.  And reread this thread and really appreciated the interesting genes you are all working with, and the pics!   gmuller, the protoAsteroid color is amazing.
I lost a few pods to pea moth this year - first time ever - and I hope it doesn't turn into a bigger pest.
I wanted to mention that I've been thinking about combinations of peas and grains, and I had an interesting experience with the grains I trialed separately this year.  A few pest bugs turned up, but I was really pleased to see a lot of damsel bugs were attracted, especially by the oats.  They were literally crawling with damsels at harvest time.  I had to take pics to id them, never saw or noticed them before.
I wonder if they would eat pea weevils too, because if so, perhaps some companion cropping would help?  Just a thought.

I was reading about flower color genetics today, trying to figure out what genes are involved in Gold Harvest flowers. There are too many genes for pink! And combos of genes not pictured.  Could be am1?  IDK.   Posting a pic to see if anyone recognizes it.  The flowers are very pale pastels, but the axils have plenty of anthocyanin.



J Hunch

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8
  • Karma: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #43 on: 2021-12-12, 02:41:29 AM »
The pea genetics rabbit hole is dangerously deep. Browsing through the JIC pea gene database is a reliable way to lose six hours. :)

Those gold harvest flowers look like they might be ce-based (cerise): http://data.jic.ac.uk/pgene/Default.asp?ID=107, but you're not kidding about there being too many pinks.

(All of the projects in this thread are very inspiring -- I love the idea of peas with the same level of variety as other beans!)

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
  • Karma: 15
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #44 on: 2021-12-12, 08:32:49 AM »
Thanks, that seems like a good guess!  Especially since they mention delphinidin as a major pigment in cerise, and the lavender hues make that likely.
My biggest concern was, will it affect the testa color in my cross with Biskopens.  I think the axil color is enough to say, probably not, or not fatally at least I should be able to recognize the ru seed coat regardless, and not get hung up on double recessive numbers to find a red seed.  Bad enough the M is dominant...  what was I thinking.  (I believe the answer is: not much!)

Speaking of rabbit hole, there are lots of pics in this as well:
http://pw.ihar.edu.pl/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/The-Catalogue-of-Pisum-genes_02.01.2019_small.pdf
Organized alphabetically.  More pics than JIC, but I like the way JIC has them grouped for easy reference.

If you want to go deeper into the complexity of color gene interactions, there's this:
https://eprints.utas.edu.au/21680/1/whole_StathamCarmelM1975_thesis.pdf
I haven't read it all by a long shot, but there's a pic of red pods on page 69 and the genome that produced it.
The pages that follow describe the experiments in flower color with the full pedigree of all color loci given for each.
Extremely useful for the brain that is ready to assimilate that info, and/or capable of picking the info out of interminable rows of letters. :o :P
My aptitude sadly is very low, brain quickly garbled and bugly eyed.  ::)  But it's there, if I need to look for ONE TIDBIT.
I just need to know what tidbit I'm looking for.
If there are flower color pics in the thesis as well as the descriptions given, I didn't find them on my first foray. 
Awesome to have access to the seminal work on flower color though, with so much detail.  I'm sure to visit again.