Author Topic: Peas 2021  (Read 4936 times)

Andrew Barney

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Peas 2021
« on: 2021-05-13, 12:36:26 PM »
There was some interest in peas thread for 2021.


For me, this year might constitute the most important year for evaluating colored podded peas yet. I was able to plant these on my parents property across town.

My main 10 rows, which i deemed the most important in case I could not fit in more are these. They are not organized by importance.

1. F2 or F3 'Alaska' x Pisum elatius
2. Spotted / Striped (Pisum humile, Pisum elatius, and Pisum sativum from India)
3. F3 Andrew's Red x Purple ('Colorado Red' breeding line x Midnight Snow)
4. Ruby Beauty
5. Opal Beauty
6. Honeysnap II
7. Purple Beauty
8. Amethyst Beauty
9. "Large Podded" (Mostly 'Green Beauty' with 'Carouby De Maussane' and 'Bijou'.)
10. Royal Snap & Royal Snow

The second patch i was able to plant, but i have not yet set up trellises.

1. Beauregarde
2. Pink Flowered Yellow Snow / Yellow Podded crosses / Mummy Yellow Snow?
3. Midnight Snow
4. Nap gene
5. Colorado Red snap original breeding line
6. Purple Passion
7. Orange-Pod Hybrids
8. Biskopens Hybrids / Dwarf Grey Sugar Hybrid (has red seeds from biskopens)
9. Moshong (red crimson flowered pea?)
10. Dwarf Grey Sugar

Beauregarde will be an interesting one to evaluate next to the other purple peas. It is bred by Michael Mazourek of Row 7 Seeds who is now on the new board of directors for OSSI. It would be nice to see Michael participate here on the forum. Supposedly his colored lines have been selected to have less tannins and less bitter flavors. We will see. Even if this has been done, the pictures of Beauregarde look very fiberous and remind me of 'Shiraz' which everyone that has grown Shiraz all say it does not taste good and is not a real snow pea. If it is too similar to Shiraz i will let you all know.

of the purple podded peas that i have grown, 'Midnight Snow' has been the best of my collection. Having become the last known grower of it and unintended curator and steward of it, I have now sent seed samples to three seed companies around the US. One is roughwoodtable, another is he Plant Good Seed Company, and the last is Baker Creek. So, hopefully in a few years it will be available commercially. I am sort of setting up my new website rabbit mountain research to be a mini rare seed store as well. It may get bigger over time.

I'm really hoping the F2 or F3 of my red podded pea cross turns out successful with the reemergence of the yellow podded gene. I really pushed two generations last year and the pods got frost damage before the seeds were fully developed. Still, it seems i have some plants growing in that row, so perhaps enough seeds survived. Hopefully i finally can get a red podded pea that tastes good. It will be compared to the new Ruby Beauty grown right next to it. I'm also hoping to convert 'Colorado Red' from a snap pea into a snow pea.
« Last Edit: 2021-05-18, 02:49:04 PM by Andrew Barney »

Steph S

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #1 on: 2021-05-13, 06:05:25 PM »
Tell me more about the Biskopens/Dwarf Grey sugar hybrids.  Is that an F2? 

I'm growing Biskopens and some other tall "drying peas" again this year, and also trialing some bush varieties.  We loved the taste of Biskopens (soaked 24 hrs then boiled for about 15 minutes), but tall peas are an iffy prospect here.  (1) Tall trellises blow down.  We are mega windy here.  (2) Moose discovered peas.  Tall peas are just at nibbling height for them, and they seem to like them.  (3) These peas are on the late side for us, which means they may or may not be done when it's time to plant garlic.  And even if they are done, the project of removing tall trellises plus heavy plants before garlic prep is not appealing.
So I am thinking about crossing B to some bush pea, aiming for a Biskopens type pea in a short and earlier plant.
The other tall pea I loved last year was Bulroyd Bean, for the large size and amazing production.  I would certainly consider crossing it to try for a bush version. 

The Shiraz that I grew last year was very short (maybe 2 1/2 ft tall) and made fat pods really quickly, and the peas are large.  I wondered if they too might make a good dry pea, or a breeding candidate.  Guess I should taste them.
I also got 8 perfectly purple peas from two of those pods.  IDK if that was genetic or environmental, but I'll grow them separately to see if I get purple again.

In bush peas for drying I am trialing Margaret McKee's baking pea, Gold Harvest, and a Capucijner.

I haven't planted any peas yet.  We often have snow on May 24 weekend, it's still early days here.  Average last frost date is June 6.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #2 on: 2021-05-13, 06:33:01 PM »
I just sort of planted a bunch of old peas that I had, bought a few more. Whatever does well, gets saved.

I will list some that I marked down.

Tasty Yellow Pod Pea
Golden Sweet Pea
Desiree Dwarf Blauwschokkers
Carouby De Maussane
Alaska
Early Perfection
Green Arrow
Wando

Crown Peas look nice. Most Crown Peas are "old" varieties, could be improved on. Might look nice mixed with something like the Triple Treat Peas - or making a type that doesn't flower all at once and die.
Triple Treat Peas are also interesting.
Sickle peas are another fun type.

Everything that you guys mentioned sound really neat.

Annapolisseeds has most of the mentioned types that I am interested in - but they are mostly out of stock.

The Spotted / Striped species seem interesting, as does the F2 'Alaska' x Pisum elatius.

Andrew Barney

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #3 on: 2021-05-13, 07:24:10 PM »
Tell me more about the Biskopens/Dwarf Grey sugar hybrids.  Is that an F2? 

I'm growing Biskopens and some other tall "drying peas" again this year, and also trialing some bush varieties.  We loved the taste of Biskopens (soaked 24 hrs then boiled for about 15 minutes), but tall peas are an iffy prospect here.  (1) Tall trellises blow down.  We are mega windy here.  (2) Moose discovered peas.  Tall peas are just at nibbling height for them, and they seem to like them.  (3) These peas are on the late side for us, which means they may or may not be done when it's time to plant garlic.  And even if they are done, the project of removing tall trellises plus heavy plants before garlic prep is not appealing.
So I am thinking about crossing B to some bush pea, aiming for a Biskopens type pea in a short and earlier plant.
The other tall pea I loved last year was Bulroyd Bean, for the large size and amazing production.  I would certainly consider crossing it to try for a bush version. 

I haven't planted any peas yet.  We often have snow on May 24 weekend, it's still early days here.  Average last frost date is June 6.

It's probably at least an F2 as I think the red pea testa trait is recessive. I sent some of my mixed up dwarf grey sugar peas to Canada to Brenda and Dianne and I think Brenda sent some seeds back and one was one that had red seeds marked as "dwarf grey sugar x biskopens cross ?". I know some of the seed i sent was mixed up and/or hybridized as i was sloppy with my seed that year I was trying to cross Biskopens to any and every other kind of pea. I know i did not send Brenda any red seeds, so whatever came back sounded very interesting and is the first biskopens hybrid that has wrinkled seeds.

I have some other Biskopens hybrids that i've been trying to keep growing for a few seasons. Biskopens is a very late pea for me as well and very tall too. I mostly wanted to cross it with a shorter season pea but retain the dark red seeds. Some of my Crown / "mummy" peas now have red seeds from biskopens. One crown pea has partially purple pods (and may also have red seeds).

Garrett,

'Carouby De Maussane' is also in the mix of "Large Podded" along with 'Bijou'.

The crown peas are very interesting. I tried crossing a bunch of them awhile back and have yet to have time to track down all the ones that came out of it. I sent off a bunch of these to be grown this year by one of those seed companies in PA to evaluate for me. They said they would let me know if they find anything worthwhile. A cross with Triple Treat Pea would be very interesting in a crown pea. I don't think you can have a crown pea that does not flower all at once, however 'Mummy White' is a crown pea that does have unusual flowers also in places along the stem not with the rest of the clump. If it were me, I would say start with 'Mummy White' to do some interesting crosses with in terms of crown or umbellatum type peas.

I requested some seeds from JIC seedstor for peas that have super or hyper nodulating traits. I didn't have time to plant them this year, but it is possible to have a variety that is a super nitrogen fixer. Peas are already a better nitrogen fixer than beans and would make an excellent cover crop for crop rotation.

Jeremy Weiss

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #4 on: 2021-05-13, 08:10:08 PM »
I gave if up a while ago,  but for a while, I was playing around with peas that had the "orc" (orange cotyledon) gene to try and get a pure orc line. My intent was to make a dry pea that was nutritionally equivalent in terms of beta carotene content to other orange cotyledon legumes, such as the red lentil and vetch.) Not sure if that would be something worth adding to any of your lines (if you are focusing on peas eaten before they are mature and dry, it probably isn't) but I thought it worth mentioning.   

Andrew Barney

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #5 on: 2021-05-13, 08:32:11 PM »
I gave if up a while ago,  but for a while, I was playing around with peas that had the "orc" (orange cotyledon) gene to try and get a pure orc line. My intent was to make a dry pea that was nutritionally equivalent in terms of beta carotene content to other orange cotyledon legumes, such as the red lentil and vetch.) Not sure if that would be something worth adding to any of your lines (if you are focusing on peas eaten before they are mature and dry, it probably isn't) but I thought it worth mentioning.   

I actually have an orc line. Never eaten it yet though. But a company in the UK just released a commercial version of orc named 'flamingo'. I didn't have time or space to grow orc this year, but the company in PA might be growing out the seed I sent them. So if it is something you are still interested in eating / buying I can pass along your interest.

Petra Suckling

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #6 on: 2021-05-14, 01:21:47 AM »
My pea projects for this year are selecting the best plants for my daughter's final choice of red mangetout aka snow pea.  Based on Shiraz and my large yellow, but frankly starting this project with Beauregarde or with Sugar Magnolia would have been better, but neither were available or known to me at the time.  The later SM crosses are promising for red and yellow snaps.  I don't get the drive for less antho tasting purple pods as I don't mind this at all, but grateful to Mazourek for the good purple colour in Beauregarde.  They are somewhat similar to Shiraz in their habit, better flavour and heavy yields for relatively short plants that only need a minimum of staking. 

Among many other projects I am really looking forward to seeing the F2s of Mummy White, crossed with cr and ar flower genes.  Mummy White has little bunches of flowers, rather than the usual one or two along its stem.  A friend crossed Golden Sweet with an ar and cov short pea and got an amazing new flower colour which she calls Magenta.  It seems to be a stable recessive, but the flavour of the pods, some of which are mangetout, needs more work.  I also crossed that ar cov plant with Opal Creek and hope for a repeat of the flower colour and a chance at flavoursome pods.  Wouldn't a yellow podded, good snap pea with that flower colour be amazing?  Another F2 this year is based on the other way to get red pods, from a pink flowered cross with a purple podded pea, rather than the more usual cross between yellow podded and purple podded. 

Interesting to read about all your projects.  And yes, the Biskopens are very tall, but quite a surprise that they are actually a mangetout aka snow pea.  But they are certainly non-sweet podded.  Strange but lovely for savoury dishes.

Andrew I had badly mildewed pods from a second generation in the same year,  but the peas, which were dried off indoors to boot, were just fine and germinated well, producing my first own yellow snap. But I want to keep these as a purple flowered line to distinguish them from Opal Creek and that will take a few more years of selecting out the recessive white flowering plants from the Amish Snap parent.   

I am also following several lines with Bijou and Carouby for extra long mangetouts, both yellow and green. 

I like the supernodulation as a feature.  A really productive crop for exhausted soil after a heavy feeder like squash.  Good idea. 

Glad Midnight Snow is safe. 

Good growing all.  Looking forward to the photos.   
Central England, cool, maritime (ish), cloudy, often dry, but recent weather unpredictable

Woody Gardener

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #7 on: 2021-05-14, 01:49:12 PM »
Quote
I requested some seeds from JIC seedstor for peas that have super or hyper nodulating traits. I didn't have time to plant them this year, but it is possible to have a variety that is a super nitrogen fixer. Peas are already a better nitrogen fixer than beans and would make an excellent cover crop for crop rotation.

Very interesting thread.
I grow a tall snap or snow pea for eating, currently 'Green Beauty', and a short pea mostly as a cover crop and nitrogen fixer, currently 'Kelvedon'. Thanks to this thread I just ordered anthocyanin rich, 'Beauregarde' to test against 'Green Beauty. I'd like to order a hyper nodulating pea from JIC seedstor to replace 'Kelvedon" but I can't find it.
Andrew, could you give me the name or the number of your pea.
I'm not interested in preserving heirlooms.
The best seed bank is the living seed bank which is growing every year in people's gardens.
Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #8 on: 2021-05-16, 02:12:54 PM »
Very interesting thread.

I'd like to order a hyper nodulating pea from JIC seedstor to replace 'Kelvedon" but I can't find it.
Andrew, could you give me the name or the number of your pea.

Yes, Green Beauty is a keeper. Might be my pick if I only had to pick one. This year i'm testing a bunch of new "Beauty" lines also bred by Alan Kapuler and his daughter. I'll let you know how they stack up to Green Beauty.

My super nodulating / hyper nodulating interest was mainly from this research paper where they crossed two super nodulating lines together. I believe Nod5 and Nod3 genes. sym29 also sounded interesting.

https://www.proquest.com/openview/f77babcde26cfb18adc22405a2b37a4a/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=54010

https://dalspace.library.dal.ca/bitstream/handle/10222/77489/VOLUME%2020-NUMBER%203-1996-PAGE%20229.pdf?sequence=1

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Representative-photos-of-nodulation-of-tested-pea-lines-a-CDC-Meadow-b-CDC-Dakota_fig2_317182462

from my research it sounds like "gene Nod 5 occurs in grain pea cultivars Torsdag, Chelyabinskii 24, Filenskii 6321 and forage cultivar Pelyushka Druzhnaya." I ordered Torsdag (JI0992), Torsdag(JI3167), Rondo (fix+) (JI2313), and Frisson, P88 sym29 (JI3032). I believe Torsdag is also available from USDA ARS.

If you use the PGene database below after getting past the bot filter you can select all the genes in the center column to show what codes for nodulating traits and find the corresponding numbers in the jic seedstor.

https://www.jic.ac.uk/research-impact/technology-research-platforms/scientific-databases/

PGene – Germplasm accession and gene list databases for Pisum

http://data.jic.ac.uk/pgene/Default.asp?SubClassID=51&S=SEARCH&Search=SubClass

You can request a max of 10 lines from JIC seedstor for £12, which can be paid by credit card.

 Biosecurity rules are also getting tighter, so a further cost is involved.

 In the USA we need either a phytosanitary certificate for the seed, which will cost £186.68, bringing the total cost to £198.68

 OR you can obtain a ‘Small Lots Import Permit’ from APHIS link to the web page shown below.

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/planthealth/import-information/permits/plants-and-plant-products-permits/plants-for-planting/ct_smalllots_seed

This can be emailed to us and we return it with the seed, going back to the basic cost of £12.

I haven't planted any peas yet.  We often have snow on May 24 weekend, it's still early days here.  Average last frost date is June 6.

Peas are generally very very frost and snow tolerant. Mine usually go in the last week of march here, but this year was a little late. My last frost date is May 20th. Usually no later than May 10th. Maybe try planting earlier next year?
« Last Edit: 2021-05-17, 07:58:42 AM by Andrew Barney »

Andrew Barney

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #9 on: 2021-05-16, 02:18:08 PM »
The F2 'Alaska' x elatius hybrids were planted on April 1st before any of the others. But I found them flowering today!

None of the others are even close to flowering.
« Last Edit: 2021-05-17, 07:51:29 AM by Andrew Barney »

Woody Gardener

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #10 on: 2021-05-17, 09:59:13 AM »
"Yes, Green Beauty is a keeper. Might be my pick if I only had to pick one. This year i'm testing a bunch of new "Beauty" lines also bred by Alan Kapuler and his daughter. I'll let you know how they stack up to Green Beauty."

Looking forward to that! In all the years of growing Green Beauty peas I've never cooked any. Those that aren't marked for seed always get eaten in the garden. I've tested many tall varieties against GB but none have come close to replacing it.

Thanks for the info on hyper nodulating peas but I guess maybe I'll try next year. Just too busy this year.
I'm not interested in preserving heirlooms.
The best seed bank is the living seed bank which is growing every year in people's gardens.
Joseph Lofthouse

Andrew Barney

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #11 on: 2021-05-18, 02:58:17 PM »
I'm excited for the colorful peas this year. Should be very good.

Here is the USDA photo of 'Moshong' PI 125840 PSP. Source History Collected 25 May 1937.  Afghanistan Locality: From Laghman. Developed PRE 2009.  Washington, United States Developer(s): Coyne, Clare USDA-ARS WRPIS

I like how bright of a red flower this is supposed to have. For those of you in the UK and other places working with crimson and other coloured flowers are yours as nice looking as this? Is this really the crimson flowered gene? Maybe if you all have other nice phenotypes like this i should request some seed from you!



for those interested in my potential spotted / striped lines, please see this original thread:
http://opensourceplantbreeding.org/forum/index.php?topic=428.0

Here is the USDA photo of the domestic pea that i'm hoping has spots. PI 179722 PSP Source History Collected India Locality: From Ahmadabad, Bombay. Developed PRE 2009.  Washington, United States Developer(s): Coyne, Clare USDA-ARS WRPIS


Steph S

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #12 on: 2021-05-18, 03:20:49 PM »
Those are beautiful, Andrew.  Love the spots too!   :)

I was meaning to ask whether you have an optimal time for pea planting as compared to trees leafing or blooming time? 
We've planted as early as april under row cover, but it didn't produce earlier peas either here nor at my friend's farm.  The peas got tall but delayed blooming for reasons unclear, well past the expected dtm.   
It's definitely time to plant now but I haven't been able to do it.  Daytime highs are getting to 10 C/ 50 F.  Some tree leaves are in green tip too.

Andrew Barney

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #13 on: 2021-05-18, 09:54:37 PM »
that's a good question. I think I've started planting before most trees are leafing out. We have most things leafed out now for about 2 weeks I think. Before that the Apple trees were in bloom for several weeks probably. Honestly I didn't really pay much attention this year, but that is an interesting metric to measure by. I would say peas could go in as long as tree flowers are in bloom. I think it has helped peas mature here a few weeks earlier, but maybe not by a lot, not sure. It does help give me more time to plant other crops when the weather warms up more. Unlike most people I do NOT pre-soak my peas. I plant them dry in the ground and usually let the spring snows / rains soak them naturally. Sometimes I might soak them once or twice with the hose. I find planting them dry helps prevent seed rot. They usually take 2-3 weeks to germinate though.

A few years back I compiled an average air temperature graph for my area based on free data from local weather stations. It was based on Joseph's original Growing Degree Days graph. I found to to be incredibly reliable for knowing when to start planting for my area. And for me that means peas can go in as soon as the temperature stops dipping below 50F. If you look at this graph I made a long time ago, I put a blue line at 60F and it looks like the air temperature is usually stable above 60F around April 1st. April 1st used to be the day I would push boundaries and plant my purple Indian corn (which was capable of handling several early spring snows). When I have time or space to grow corn again I think I will see if my corn can still handle being planted that early. But based on this data it looks like I can more or less plant peas as early as March 10th, though I usually aim for mid-late march.

« Last Edit: 2021-05-18, 10:01:08 PM by Andrew Barney »

Steph S

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Re: Peas 2021
« Reply #14 on: 2021-05-19, 04:40:28 AM »
Nice graph!    I read something last night about air temp vs soil temp.    Soil runs a bit cooler than air in the spring.  So the 50F mark is good for pea planting soil temperature above 45F.  Row cover can warm it up a bit.
Here we have a late spring and a cool but variable climate.  Average high for April is 43F.   Average high for may is 51F.  We will still have a few dips below 50 F but some warmer days too, so it's ideal for pea planting now.  I do soak mine because we like to get a jump on germination, but we never have peas before July, and often it's August.
The average high for July (warmest month) is 70 F.  So we may have a few days that are too hot for peas but not on average.  Mind you we are having more hot weather in July than before climate change, so it's not impossible for peas to suffer that, depending on the year. (Sometimes July has been downright cold and wet instead... it's a gamble.)
My climate averages:
https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Canada/Newfoundland-Labrador/Places/st-johns-temperatures-by-month-average.php
I guess for the average short season pea with DTM around 60 days, we could delay planting until June and aim for the August harvest.  But the dry peas have a DTM more like 90 days, so they must go in asap.

I also found this study about pea traits for a warming climate:
https://acsess.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.2135/cropsci2016.12.0974
Apparently pod number and length of flowering time are key traits for cropping in spite of excess heat.