Author Topic: Tomato Journal  (Read 3097 times)

Steph S

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #30 on: 2021-05-28, 05:25:05 AM »
I agree the Russian Beta orange tomatoes like Zolotoe Serdtse and Orange-1 (aka Belarus Orange) probably have wild relatives in their lineage.  There are segregates from those crosses with distinctively smelly foliage, they are extra 'hairy' around the buds and stems, and the plants are especially rugged and cold tolerant.  So the wild ancestor is probably where the exserted stigma is coming from.
I did a little reading about it, and found a recent (2019) article which looked at the physiology of heat-induced exsertion compared with what is normal in wild tomato relatives, and concluded that the physiology is not the same.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pce.13444
IDK if that difference is even relevant where the goal is to foster outcrossing by pollinators.   They say the high temperature exsertion causes set failure, but that may be simply failure to self pollinate, where there aren't pollinators, or it could be due to the heat itself, since pollen is killed above 95F afaik. Or perhaps the heat fx on jasmonate and auxin are causing set failure at the same time producing exserted pheno.
There's a comment in the article linked below, about selecting away from exsertion in commercial breeding because inserted stigmas had more heat tolerance over 35C/95F.  My other tomatoes with inserted stigmas and all the OP's I've grown here don't seem to be heat tolerant over 95F, so if this exists in some varieties it's unknown to me.
https://blog.seedsavers.org/blog/exploring-tomato-flower-structure
I don't recall any special sensitivity to heat in the Orange-1, which iirc had very good set.  But in any case it will be interesting to watch this group of segregates for differences in heat sensitivity if there are any, when the greenhouse temps shoot up over 95F as they usually do at some point.  If I can't bring the temperature below 95, there is generally blossom drop instead of set.  Any surviving sets seem attributable to shade architecture in the plant, I thought.

Will let you guys know what the fruit qualities are like, and I'll save and send you seed of anything promising in the exserted if you want them.  It's not really relevant pro or con for my climate, where we can't realistically hope for an outcrossing landrace approach, due to having to grow tomatoes under cover.  But always following your projects with interest, all the same.



Garrett Schantz

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #31 on: 2021-05-28, 02:09:53 PM »
Tomatoes are taking the rain pretty well. Wagner blue green is still looking bad, stem is limp. The other antho tomatoes are also suffering, newest bit of foliage on the others looks healthy. Their foliage is blue due to the cold temperatures when they were growing earlier in the year.

William S.

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #32 on: 2021-05-28, 02:41:20 PM »
Got the seven tomatoes for the porch down to my parents apartment. Dipped my stigmas for a third time.

Here is a picture of two flowers on the big hill plant. The older of which has been my pollen source these last few days. I should be using the big hill as mother though- will in the future. If either of these two pollinations were to work though or even partially work it will result in regular leaf seedlings from a potato leaf mother in the F1. Which is handy.

Someone mentioned how hairy the promiscuous project seedlings are over on permies compared to their heirlooms. I went out and looked at the big hill and was like- yep pretty normal amount- not from the hab parent. Some of the older heirlooms must not have hairs? I definitely have some hairless or at least short haired strains in my collection.
« Last Edit: 2021-05-28, 04:01:28 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Steph S

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #33 on: 2021-05-28, 07:23:35 PM »
My impression is that all tomatoes are a bit hairy, but that may be due to the selection.
Just looking at a few pics and there is a hairier thing happening with the exserted stigma F2 - here's one of them.
There seem to be less hairs on main stems but that may not be true at the base of the plant.  Maybe there are fewer as they elongate but you may end up with a lot on the main stem, along with those glandular dots "don't mess with me!".

Steph S

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #34 on: 2021-05-28, 07:32:20 PM »
For comparison, this F1 which has PI120256 as one of multiple parents doesn't look as hairy.  But the main stem does have notable hairs. :)  Maybe the pic lighting just didn't emphasize hair?   It's there but you have to look.


Steph S

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #35 on: 2021-05-28, 07:36:43 PM »
This is a Skipper Pink now at F7.  It's a large cherry 2-3 locules.  Still pretty hairy.  Zolotoe Serdtse one of the 4 parents.  I have pics of ZS from other years and the hairiness was very noticeable. 





Diane Whitehead

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #36 on: 2021-05-28, 08:20:43 PM »
I've just sown a batch of seeds of hairy tomatoes that have just arrived from Croatia.

I want to see if deer are deterred by hairs.
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
cool mediterranean climate  warm dry summers, mild wet winters,  70 cm rain,   sandy soil

William S.

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #37 on: 2021-05-28, 11:20:25 PM »
The LA2329 habrochaites and the galapagense I'm growing are both known for type IV trichomes and arthropod resistance. However if memory serves they don't have the long straight sturdy semi sparse hairs common to varieties like these we've just pictured. I should photograph tomorrow. Though the fruits on both species are conspicuously hairy.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #38 on: 2021-05-28, 11:21:31 PM »
Oh just got Joseph's new book in the mail from Amazon. Read the tomato chapter. Interesting.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #39 on: 2021-05-29, 01:53:44 PM »
Going to try to post LA2329 habrochaites and LA1410 Galapagense both of which are types likely to have arthropod resistance.

Interestingly it's the galapagense that looks more like the hairiness on many of my domestic tomatoes. It has the kind of sparse long stiff hairs.
« Last Edit: 2021-05-30, 11:44:32 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #40 on: 2021-05-31, 12:34:15 PM »
The tomatoes didn't care much for the constant rain the past few days. All of the antho tomatoes with blue leaves appear to have died. Maybe sun damage due to the dark coloration? Wooly Kate and Amethyst Cream Cherry appear to be fine.

Neandermato plants appear to be fine. Some leaves look bad, this is probably due to the rain, being in full sun and transplant shock from a few days ago. Newest leaves look good.

Only one peruvianum type seems to have suffered any sort of damage - HRseeds type. Seems to be recovering.

The supposed SC peruvianum from Ebay actually looks better than when I had it indoors. Leaves are very small. Mainly interested in this type as it may have resistant genes that other peruvianums do not have. Also wanting to see if it can pollinate wildlings or species.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #41 on: 2021-06-02, 12:35:22 PM »
Good bit of tomatoes died. Most varieties hate my area to begin with. Had highs of 90F - some lows of 45F the past week or so.

Good bit of damage from the drastically different temperatures, plus the rain at these different temperatures probably shocked the plants even more.

Plants from nearby greenhouses still in pots - in the shade are showing signs of sunscald. So hardening the plants off probably didn't matter...

Seems like all of J&L Gardens plants are actually doing fine and recovering. Even the ones with no wild heritage. Probably a bit more adapted to the heat.

Peruvianums are doing the best. Suppose I will try planting some more big hill seeds to replace other dead varieties.

Most pimpinellifolium, wildling, habrochaites are hanging on pretty well. New bits of growth on them are nice to see.

Cloudy weather at the start of the season along with the wetness wasn't all too good either.

Hopefully conditions improve, weather stabilizes for a bit.

William S.

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #42 on: 2021-06-02, 01:59:06 PM »
One of the results I find interesting is a few plants of promiscuous project bicolors that got planted in the deeper sand left from a pile base. Received no frost protection, deepest green healthiest looking tomatoes of any that were out for the frosts and heavy rain. Clay soil plants look terrible by comparison. I have a mental model right now of tomatoes as sandy soil plants that thrive in seasonal stream beds and dry washes. I met those conditions for a few plants and they are thriving. Though I also think the others will recover now that they are warm and dry. I'll let the transplant gardens dry out until and unless I think they really need watered (usually in July). Which some summers is true and some never happens.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #43 on: 2021-06-02, 07:44:28 PM »
Have more tomato seeds sprouting in the rows. Germination is still not even enough for my liking. May have to do some more watering. Found some sprouting in the compost. Could be good ones hard to say. Something I grew last year I imagine! I saved a little clump of them in a pot.

The frozen tomatoes are resprouting rapidly with this heat. About 20% of the blue potato leaf bicolors aka mission mountain sunrise- already planted another 17. About 45% or so of exserted orange- enough that I probably don't need to replant but the seeds have germinated on the replant ones. Similar on the slushy field. Lots of tomatoes are coming back.

Over in the promiscuous field some of the lightly damaged tomatoes have lost apical dominance and are sprouting more shoots. They are going to really take off with this heat. A few of them look really great. The only one blooming has inserted but near the tip stigmas. Looks like the first few are going to abort but that could be the frost. Will be interesting to see if that plant is self fertile. Would be a good sign we are on the right track if it hardly sets any fruit.



« Last Edit: 2021-06-02, 09:54:32 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Steph S

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Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #44 on: 2021-06-03, 11:35:48 AM »
On the opposite track here, all my plants are blooming in the greenhouse and starting to set their first cluster.  Our weather is such a crapshoot, this week it's running about 5 C above normals even most of the nights.  The wind has been keeping it just perfect for setting - low 80's F - but today I had to get a couple of fans out and try to keep it below 95. 

The goal for me is basically opposite to the outdoor cross-pollination you guys are working on.  The ideal plant for us is one that self pollinates very readily without wanting to be buzzed, shook, or tended in any way.  It has to set and grow fruit in cool temperatures, because that is the usual condition. 
Also since greenhouse space is necessary and expensive, stable reliable OP's are desirable for tomato production here.  It's a food security thing.   
So I pretty much want all of them to produce at least a couple of fruit by selfing, for seeds, before I consider turfing them outdoors.  End of June would be normal for that/ and for this kind of weather.
I do have way too many plants in the greenhouse though.  So "hurry up and set" before they get too much bigger... ::)