Author Topic: Tomato Journal  (Read 5974 times)

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Karma: 60
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #135 on: 2021-10-31, 09:05:23 AM »
I hold up the pollen spoon from my first pollinator tool and buzz the flower and no visible pollen. I keep trying. Perhaps the artificial light? The first flower is senescing. Second is fully open, and third opening. A few more are opening on other plants.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Karma: 60
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #136 on: 2021-11-11, 01:49:57 AM »
I have a tomato set on my four winter growout plants. First few flowers look to be about to fall off without setting fruit. Confirms the lack of pollen from them. Same plant has been producing pollen since then. Clumpy pollen. Suspect set fruits will be a subset of flowers but plants are producing lots of flowers now.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Karma: 60
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #137 on: 2021-11-13, 08:44:26 PM »
Yep it's set. Grow F2 seeds grow! I think I see two additional plants with just barely set tomatoes.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Karma: 60
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #138 on: 2021-11-19, 08:42:21 AM »
I am pretty sure I have 5 to 6 tomatoes set now. Second whorl of flowers finishing and a third starting. Plants quite etiolated. Apical dominance has declined and side shoots are starting. Still in the #1 cans commonly referred to as 1 gallon. I don't currently see any sign of determinate growth.

I think I counted about forty seeds in a MMS fruit. That means five fruits could potentially produce 200 seeds or enough to produce roughly fifty potato leaf F2s. More than enough for an isolation garden!

The micro dwarf plant is getting bigger. The Solanum galapagense is still tiny. No flowers yet. When they do bloom I'll make crosses if possible I.E. I have time and the others are still blooming.
« Last Edit: 2021-11-19, 08:51:39 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Karma: 60
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #139 on: 2021-11-24, 01:02:16 PM »
Last night I realized that two of my tomato plants were sick. Thought about it. Realized it was the two against the outside wall. They were cold. So I moved those two etiolated vines away from the wall and basement outside door. This morning they looked much better. Though included moving six set tomatoes of eight.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Karma: 60
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #140 on: 2021-11-29, 05:20:40 PM »
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2298786-heirloom-tomatoes-are-less-genetically-diverse-than-standard-varieties/amp/

Found this article and thought: I thought we knew that already. Started reading it and: Paywall. Hmm.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
  • Karma: 15
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #141 on: 2021-11-29, 05:38:34 PM »
Check out the author's page at research gate.  Didn't see this specific one afaict but a lot of interesting work involving tomatoes and other crops.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jose-Blanca

edited to add, it is there, I clicked on the link below by mistake.  full pdf available.
« Last Edit: 2021-11-29, 05:42:03 PM by Steph S »

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Karma: 60
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #142 on: 2021-11-29, 06:36:28 PM »
I think the interesting thing about this dichotomy is the realization that only some of our tomatoes have decent diversity at the genetic level. Hard to know which ones do and which do not.

I bet though that in the 147 OSSI registered tomatoes some of the best diversity might come from say the dehybridization projects and things like Dakota sport.

Is Jagodka a modern tomato?

The whole dwarf tomato project is a little suspect for lack of diversity because they were so focused on heirlooms.

I think Carol's Iron Lady infusion scheme for late blight and Josephs promiscuous project out crossing to habrochaites and penellii both have good potential to combat that lack of diversity in true heirlooms.

Though the article talks about some areas of higher diversity in Southern Europe. I also wonder about oh say Mexican heirloom tomato diversity.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Joseph Lofthouse

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 404
  • Karma: 53
  • Great Basin desert, Rocky Mountains
    • Open Source Plant Breeding Forum, founder. World Tomato Society, ambassador. Plant Breeder. Yogi. Shaman.
    • View Profile
    • Garden.Lofthouse.com
    • Email
  • Koppen zone: Dsa
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA Zone 5
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #143 on: 2021-11-29, 07:18:45 PM »
Is Jagodka a modern tomato?

The story that I was told, when I received the seeds, is that Jagodka was developed at the Vavilov Institute of Plant Industry in Russia.

Currently available Russian language photos, make me wonder if "ягодка" may be a generic term that might be used to describe saladette or cherry tomatoes.

In recent years, several "ягодка F1" tomato varieties came onto the market. They are small-fruited cherry tomatoes.




William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Karma: 60
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #144 on: 2021-11-29, 07:58:35 PM »
True, in 2017 when I grew so many kinds of boring red tomatoes I got a strain of Jagodka in a seed trade but it is different from Josephs strain which I got in 2018. I think Joseph was out in 2017. It is also a good early tomato.

It occurs to me that blue skin is a good visual marker of the potential for introgression when a valued trait comes around. I would say circa 2005 when I got the seed savers trading catalogue for the first and last time stripes were relatively rare and true blue skin virtually unknown. Now I bet we could make a list of 100 varieties with both traits combined and find them in red, pink, green, bicolor, yellow, white, orange and black, big and small... Seems like ultimately disease resistance will go the same way out of simple regional if not worldwide necessity.

Contemplating my list of tomatoes for 2021 I've thinned it down to 95 but half that I think I could combine into two grexes one red and one yellow and direct seed.
 Edit: and then I realized I could just not plant the red Grex if I didn't want to.
« Last Edit: 2021-11-29, 09:35:20 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Karma: 60
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #145 on: 2021-11-29, 09:44:17 PM »
One tomato has changed from dull to shiny on the winter grow out of MMS x BH.

Could be viable seeds if I had to pick it and let it ripen off the plant or if the plant dies.

It occurs to me that September has 30 days as does October and November. Not sure if I wrote the exact planting date but it was August. My point being that it is about time for a tomato!

The Aztek micro dwarf plant is not yet blooming but I think it will soon. The galapagense is a spindly solitary little thing but growing a little.

I want to plant more tomatoes but I think I should have done that in August!
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Karma: 60
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #146 on: 2021-11-29, 10:03:03 PM »
I have most of the MSS x BH F1 seed in envelopes but I just planted four seeds. Hoping for some F2 seed for spring planting next year.

July 30th is when I planted. Germination on the 7th of August. Fruit set noted on the 11th of November 18 days ago.
« Last Edit: 2021-11-29, 10:14:22 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Karma: 60
    • Botanist, gardener, and science teacher.
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb Googled
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 6A
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #147 on: 2021-12-01, 06:55:02 AM »
It would make sense if a lot of our short season tomatoes have some piminillifolium in their background and would likely genotype out as modern tomatoes. Jagodka included. Lots of tomatoes probably have modern inclusions. If Payette was an early peruvianum and habrochaites introgression example it was released in 1961 after years of work and many back crosses. Sixty years ago. Someone commented I think on permies.com that the long stiff hairs found in the promiscuous project aren't a feature of their heirlooms. I looked around my greenhouse and found hairs like that more on the domestics. Possibly a piminillifolium trait!
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Steph S

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
  • Karma: 15
    • 47.5N 52.8W Newfoundland AgCan zone 5a/USDA zone 4 Koppen Dfb
    • View Profile
  • Koppen zone: Dfb
  • Hardiness Zone: USDA zone 4
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #148 on: 2021-12-01, 08:37:56 AM »
Tomato diversity has increased in NW Europe over the past 7 decades, according to this:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2019.01606/full
It states that introgression of genes from wild relatives began in the 1970's.   I assume that the same timeline can be inferred for other tomato breeding programs, in the USSR/Eastern Europe and North America for instance.  I am not a history buff but 50 years of breeding that increased genetic diversity seems like a reasonable assumption, and a vast number of OP's in circulation that have come from those lineages.  The focus on hybrids in North America has never been entirely adopted in other parts of the world, and they continued to develop and offer new OP's.
Although there are for sure many older heirlooms still in circulation, they are likely outnumbered by modern OP's.
I agree that genes from wild relatives are likely present in varieties bred for cold tolerance, shorter season, or disease resistance prior to the more recent genetic technologies and resistance design in hybrids.  There are many OP varieties from Eastern European breeding that fall into these categories.
Signatures of wild relatives include Beta and perhaps tangerine too, as well as hairiness, antho... It would be nice to have a definitive list of traits that are markers for introgressed material.   
It's interesting that pink color (clear skin) and shape diversity were preserved in Europe by deliberate selection.  We can also assume that there was selection for climate adaptation, disease or pest resistance, etc. in countries where tomatoes became a significant crop.  I haven't grown any Spanish tomatoes but was favorably impressed by some Italian types that seemed adaptable enough to my own extreme climate.   So I would certainly place your own observations in the field in perspective to what is read in a genetic study.  If the haplotype lacks diversity but was strongly selected for good traits, it still has a place in our breeding efforts, IMO.    OTOH after reading the article, I wonder if the many tomato 'rejects' here that were just a mess of diseases or too finicky about environment, may have come straight from the bottom of the heirloom bottleneck...

Adrian

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 324
  • Karma: 8
    • View Profile
  • Hardiness Zone: 7b
Re: Tomato Journal
« Reply #149 on: 2021-12-01, 03:04:19 PM »
What can give an hybrid between solanum habrochaite x pimpinelifolium?or  solanum habrochaite x (pimpinelifolium x lycopersycum)?
« Last Edit: 2021-12-01, 03:33:36 PM by Adrian »