Author Topic: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas  (Read 857 times)

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #15 on: 2021-10-23, 12:45:01 PM »
Goals and favorite traits:

One of my long time goals is to concentrate favorite traits.

Favorite Traits:

Stigma Exsertion: This increases natural outcrossing. Especially when the trait is fairly extreme.

Open anther cone: also has potential to increase natural outcrossing.

Obligate outcrossing- a goal of Josephs that sounds reasonable to peruse and which seems to be spinning off a lot of fun flavors, exsertion, open anther cones, large flowers, and patterns colors.

Potato Leaved: this lets me readily identify hybrids.

Blue Skin: it is just a fun trait.

Stripes and patterns: just visual appeal.

Bicolor: good flavor

Orange: associated with good flavor

Resistance: just seems prosocial to breed for various resistances.

Arthropod resistance: seems useful for young seedling survival also associated woolly fruits might be kind of novel.

So one goal would be to concentrate as many favorite traits as possible into one package.

Another might be to develop a arthropod resistant tomato with a high habrochaites and or galapagense content.

A third might be to have an identified and tasty obligate outcrossing strain. Though I find exsertion alone pretty handy.

One thought is that it might be time to develop a more variable but entirely exserted grex. Use exserted orange, exserted tiger, and perhaps a few others to found it. Within a few years if seed saved the grex would start to spin off desirable combinations. I kind of tried that in 2021 but I allowed some not exserted types to grow and was disappointed. I was also disappointed by a general lack of exsertion in 2021 promiscuous project plants. I felt I wasn't critical enough in my seed saving regarding that trait in 2020. So in 2021 I was saving ~7 plants seed preferentially out of hundreds in that project and may mostly propagate the seed of just one plant that had the open anthers, exserted stigma, and good flavor combined.

The offspring of said plant may be high priority for subsequent crosses. Though it also seems worthwhile to continue to utilize the material already stable for exsertion. Unstable exsertion material could be grown out in pots until it blooms and then planted in the exserted grex block only if exsertion is acceptable. Exserted orange, exserted tiger, and big hill grown in isolation could be direct seeded in the block.

« Last Edit: 2021-10-23, 01:23:09 PM by William S. »
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Garrett Schantz

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #16 on: 2021-10-23, 01:48:18 PM »
I'll be interested to hear if anything unexpected occurs in the hybridization of that exserted orange x purple smudge. I wouldn't be surprised if there is more than one mutation responsible for orange in tomatoes. Though also wouldn't be surprised if there is only one. Orange has shown up ~independently in exserted orange and the promiscuous project both from unknown or maybe habrochaites genes and both with big hill ancestry.

Make sure of your tangerine parent, in case you didn't know, there are several other genes that produce orange fruit.  Beta orange is quite common.   These genes are unrelated to the tangerine gene, and behave differently.   tangerine will only show up when homozygous, afaik it is completely masked in heterozygous state.
Great project!    :)

I think that some of the orange tomato traits can appear at the same time. Some of them can't.

Also worth noting that the different orange genes have different flavors.

Some orange tomatoes may not be very tasty.

I'm assuming that Purple Smudge was a red tomato crossed with peruvianum - most breeders use reds. Unsure of where the orange came from.

I'm growing some galapagos tomatoes next year, they could have some of the rarer orange genes.

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #17 on: 2021-10-23, 02:53:21 PM »
Yellow is also associated with good flavor but not all yellow tomatoes have good flavor. Wonder if there is more than one yellow.

For instance golden tressette descended Chile shaped tomatoes I discovered in the F2 are not always tasty and Mike Jennings sent me a desegregation project of Indigo Kumquat and only one plant was tasty of my first grow out.
« Last Edit: 2021-10-23, 02:57:30 PM by William S. »
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Garrett Schantz

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #18 on: 2021-10-23, 03:36:06 PM »
On Permies, multiple people noted "fishy" tasting Wildings which all happened to be yellow and fuzzy leaved.

Unsure if that is a different sort of yellow or if penneli, habrochaites and domestics just had weird flavor mix.

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #19 on: 2021-10-23, 04:00:53 PM »
Yeah, with the wild species we got mostly odd flavors. I was pleased that last years was back to pretty normal and many good flavored but this year I just dismissed most of them as having something off about the flavor. That's pretty much how I felt about 2021 R18. A little unpalatable.
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William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #20 on: 2021-10-24, 10:07:01 PM »
Ultimately I need to decide for 2022 what will go in each isolation garden. If no commercial grow outs I may simply have fewer gardens. Or I may use them to capture some different crosses.

Garden 1: isolated 2021 best flavor open exserted orange bicolor "persimmon"

Garden 2: Arthropod resistance. This might be two semi isolated crossing blocks. Say one potato leaved exserted surrounded by LA1410 Galapagense and then LA 2329 Habrochaites surrounded by hopefully F1s with itself.

Garden 3: MMS x BH possibly only F2 potato leaf plants of same.

Garden 4: maybe a direct seeding experiment where only exserted plants are allowed as a crossing block?

Garden 5: everything else?

Garden 6: advance something a generation in isolation? Or make a natural cross?

Garden 7: at the house, anything? Another crossing block?
« Last Edit: 2021-10-24, 10:09:30 PM by William S. »
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Greenie DeS

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #21 on: 2021-10-25, 11:12:36 AM »
My 2021 flavor favorite (fuyu persimmon comparison) is a promiscuous potential replacement for exserted orange in my breeding. It's an orange bicolor a trait combo that sometimes shows up in exserted orange as well.

I definitely got some bicolour fruit off a couple exserted orange; is your fuyu tomato (shame "persimmon" is a named variety) reliably thrown by exerted orange, or was it just the one plant that was exceptional this year? You mention that it was later than exserted orange generally? I found the bicolour plants actually started orange, then got striped fruit later in the season.

If/when you have enough seed to share I'm curious about whether it shares exserted orange's earliness and cool weather tolerance.

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #22 on: 2021-10-25, 06:53:06 PM »
I definitely got some bicolour fruit off a couple exserted orange; is your fuyu tomato (shame "persimmon" is a named variety) reliably thrown by exerted orange, or was it just the one plant that was exceptional this year? You mention that it was later than exserted orange generally? I found the bicolour plants actually started orange, then got striped fruit later in the season.

If/when you have enough seed to share I'm curious about whether it shares exserted orange's earliness and cool weather tolerance.

To clarify, my 2021 taste favorite was a single plant that my wife likened to Fuyu persimmon and it is not from the same line as exserted orange and I would not expect something so fabulous to ever arise from exserted orange. I would expect exserted orange to taste like an orange tomato, but not like tropical fruit. Rather it comes from the main lines of Joseph Lofthouse's promiscuous project and has evidence of three species ancestry with big hill in the background too. My guess is the good exotic flavor comes from S. Penellii.

As far as seed increase goes yes if I grow say five 18 flats of the Fuyu persimmon tomato or say 90 plants I will undoubtedly have enough seed but I intend to cull for three traits. Exserted, open, and flavor. If that means I have one plant left standing next year so be it, but it so it'll up the odds in 2023.... eventually I should be able to share it if isolating and replicating that flavor proves possible. Definitely worth the attempt! I see no problem sharing seed ~next year depending on how the grow out goes and tastes!

My guess is it will be an annoyingly late tomato- that might be one reason to keep exserted orange around for breeding stock.

Exserted orange does throw fruit similar in appearance and especially the 2020 grow out I would expect it to throw some bicolors. The 2021 grow out of exserted orange had some bicolors but the flesh was orange so I called them orange bicolors.

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William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #23 on: 2021-11-19, 08:13:43 PM »
Adding the following to my list of 2022 growouts:
Dwarf Galen's Yellow
Dwarf Desert Star
Dwarf Orange Cream
Dwarf Saucy Mary
Dwarf Sunny's Pear
Dwarf Bendigo Moon
Banana Toes
Kelly Green
Have them on order, supposed to be shipped. I'll probably plant four seeds of each and grow them as clumps of four. Plant them all in the same garden with lots of other things.
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Andrew Barney

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #24 on: 2021-11-20, 05:35:52 PM »
I would expect exserted orange to taste like an orange tomato, but not like tropical fruit. Rather it comes from the main lines of Joseph Lofthouse's promiscuous project and has evidence of three species ancestry with big hill in the background too. My guess is the good exotic flavor comes from S. Penellii.

As far as seed increase goes yes if I grow say five 18 flats of the Fuyu persimmon tomato or say 90 plants I will undoubtedly have enough seed but I intend to cull for three traits. Exserted, open, and flavor. If that means I have one plant left standing next year so be it, but it so it'll up the odds in 2023.... eventually I should be able to share it if isolating and replicating that flavor proves possible. Definitely worth the attempt! I see no problem sharing seed ~next year depending on how the grow out goes and tastes!

wow! Very interesting breeding line!

Perhaps you should be careful in your selection attempts this next year. It would be a shame if the excellent flavor was somehow either linked to a trait like closed-flowers, or segregated this next year to only be with closed-flowers. A more cautious approach might be to use flag markers. If a plant has exerted stigmas it gets a red flag. If it has open cone it gets a blue flag. If it has good tasting fruits it gets an orange flag. In an ideal world you only save seeds from the plants with all three flags. In unideal world you at least save seeds from ones that still have the good flavor. Just a thought. Would take more effort though, but could possibly help guarantee a better outcome.

Either way, keep us posted! Sounds like a very interesting tomato!

Guess I need to grow out all of my remaining F3 pennellii hybrids.... That is one of the few tomato seed stashes I have left. Maybe I'll do more hand crosses with that line....

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #25 on: 2021-11-20, 07:52:15 PM »
Flagging could be a good way to go next year. It is what I did this year. I did rip out culls from my exserted orange and MMS this year. Mostly MMS. I didn't want the non blue plants to accidentally get picked and into the seed. In fact a flagging system is how I selected the Fuyu persimmon flavored plant. It got double flagged when it had good exsertion and then tripple flagged after I tasted it.

In regards to your seed collection lets work on fixing that!
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Nicollas

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #26 on: 2021-11-21, 12:25:34 AM »
If you could keep some persimmon flavored even with closed flowers, it would be cool as i think many folks including me would love to fix the flavor as strong and quick as possible, even for crossing later with promiscous lines :)

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #27 on: 2021-11-21, 08:54:37 AM »
That's reasonable. Will have to see how it segregates out in the next generation. It could be obligate outcrossing! It could also segregate into several forms including inserted stigma selfers. Will have to find out. My experience with exserted orange and exserted tiger suggests that an exserted stigma can be fixed relatively fast. Though exserted stigmas were rare in the 2021 population so any outcrossing may lead to inserted stigmas. My basic plan is to isolate just the offspring of this one plant plus the five seeds or so from the inserted stigma but apparently non-selfing plant I called "little pumpkins" with similar flavor and see what happens.
« Last Edit: 2021-11-21, 09:33:19 AM by William S. »
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William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #28 on: 2021-11-21, 10:46:17 PM »
I inventoried my tomato seed collection. Maybe for the first time. It's over 300 seed packets but I would say just shy of 200 accessions.

A good number are early generation segregating domestic reds and yellows. Maybe 45 to 50 packets worth. It occurs to me that those could be recombined and maintained as just two direct seeded grexes. Then what becomes important are traits within those grexes when seed saving. Earliest could be a category. Color variations like orange, bicolor, and pink. Biggest. Blue skin. Stripes. Best flavor. Shape of fruit or use like paste vs slicer.

There are a lot of questions still. Like I have a lot of different categories of blue ambrosia. Is everything off type from description not blue ambrosia anymore? So the red ambrosia and now not blue anymore ambrosia packets could maybe go in the segregating grex?

It also occurs to me that I could put all but the stock seed of MMS, exserted tiger, and exserted orange into said grexes. Then direct seed like crazy.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: 2022 Tomato Growouts and breeding experiments ideas
« Reply #29 on: 2021-11-23, 11:41:14 PM »
Can do three tomato grow outs if I want to. Would tie up three isolation gardens. Its worth about three to three and a half days of substitute teaching or ~2 days of botany tech work. Not sure but I suspect it is more work for the money for seed growouts?

OK where would that leave me on development?

1. Garden for big grow out of best flavor 2021 tropical flavor promiscuous project

2. garden to continue arthropod resistance project.

3. Garden to continue development of MMS take two

4. Growout one. Big hill.

5. Growout two. Exserted orange.

6. Grow out three. Exserted tiger.

7. The house garden would have to be my everything else.

Not too bad bad but...

Wonder if I should keep growing those three or use the time and space to develop more varieties? Or maybe say this: I am willing to steward these varieties but if another grower wants them I will bow out?

Also two non tomato growouts offered. My fava and Josephs buttercup. Maybe same deal. Maybe I should say I'll steward them but would prefer to pass them on. Offered them to my wife already today she is thinking about it.

What do you think?
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days