Author Topic: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan  (Read 4079 times)

Klaus Brugger

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #15 on: 2021-01-15, 12:58:33 PM »
I found this Colombian paper* that links the green color to an oxidation process, if I read it right. Seems like in some squashes the color only develops over time when the fruits have been cut open. Now I wonder even more which substance is responsible for this coloring. I had assumed that it's probably chlorophylls, but this does not sound like chlorophyll synthesis ...

I also quickly went through some papers by Linda Wessel-Beaver from around the time she took the photos of the GRIN accessions you linked to. But I didn't come across any mention of the green color.

*Vásquez Gamboa, G., Ortiz Grisales, S., Vallejo Cabrera, F. A., & Salazar Villareal, F. A. (2017). Morpho-agronomic assessment of introductions of butternut squash (Cucurbita moschata Duch.) from Central America. Revista Facultad Nacional de Agronomía Medellín, 70(1), 8057-8068. https://dx.doi.org/10.15446/rfna.v70n1.61764

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #16 on: 2021-01-15, 04:51:06 PM »
It is possible that the green color isn't something she considered mentioning. Suppose we can figure out if the squash is green prior to being cut open ourselves.

Klaus Brugger

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #17 on: 2021-01-16, 03:53:36 AM »
It is possible that the green color isn't something she considered mentioning. Suppose we can figure out if the squash is green prior to being cut open ourselves.

At least some definitely seem to be green prior to being cut open. But it would be cool if anyone who has ordered relevant material could check how the colors develop after cutting.
I still have to figure out how to get such material legally to Europe or if there are sources within the EU. Tropical material probably won't work here anyway.

Adrian

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #18 on: 2021-01-16, 04:57:11 AM »
Why do not try to see the color of thé pulpit at différents périods of developpement of the fruit.
For cucurbita maxima and probably moschata it existed the yellow pulpit (délica,sweet mama), the orange pulpit and for cucurbita pepo the with pulpit.
Orange is dominant at yellow.
For citrulus lunatus, orange pulpit=red x yellow.
In normal Time thé green is associated at the chlorophyl and the orange is associated at her degradation.
This green is look like  dominant at the orange.
« Last Edit: 2021-01-16, 05:01:42 AM by Adrian »

Klaus Brugger

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #19 on: 2021-01-16, 07:25:02 AM »
Why do not try to see the color of thé pulpit at différents périods of developpement of the fruit.
For cucurbita maxima and probably moschata it existed the yellow pulpit (délica,sweet mama), the orange pulpit and for cucurbita pepo the with pulpit.
Orange is dominant at yellow.
For citrulus lunatus, orange pulpit=red x yellow.
In normal Time thé green is associated at the chlorophyl and the orange is associated at her degradation.
This green is look like  dominant at the orange.

It would definitely be interesting to cut fruits at different developmental stages!

In the watermelon material I know, red × yellow will be either yellow (if you've used a "canary yellow" cultivar) or red.  But talking about watermelons and green flesh: In Citrullus, green flesh color has been shown to be due to chlorophylls by Davis et al. (2008-2009)*. Unfortunately, the publication doesn't mention which accession was the intensely green one in the last picture.

*Davis, A. R., Perkins-Veazie, P., King, S. R., & Levi, A. (2008-2009). Cucurbit Genetics Cooperative Report 31-32, 8-10. https://cucurbit.info/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/cgc3132-3.pdf
« Last Edit: 2021-01-16, 07:27:03 AM by Klaus Brugger »

William S.

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #20 on: 2021-01-16, 07:58:29 AM »
I've been noticing small amounts of green flesh in my Rio Lucio Cucurbita maxima squash from native seed search for 20 years. I thought maybe it was a lack of complete ripeness. Perhaps it is really some dilute form of a similar trait.

The other day I found a tiny green streak in a moschata I opened. I wonder if it could be possible to select for green flesh from a ordinary population and if the trait could be more widespread.

Wonder if any other flesh colors exist besides orange, yellow, and green.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Adrian

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #21 on: 2021-01-16, 02:54:11 PM »
I have found again this thread that i have tought interessant.

https://alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/9302/watermelon-dominant-genes

Klaus Brugger

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #22 on: 2021-01-30, 02:46:08 AM »
There was a session featuring Linda Wessel-Beaver, Glenn Teves, and Edmund Frost about Tropical Pumpkins as part of Culinary Breeding Network's Variety Showcase + Winter Vegetable Sagra on the CBN YT channel last Thursday. There they also presented some green-fleshed pumpkins/squashes and talked a bit about their properties (e.g. 13:08, 52:05). Through the chat I could ask about the nature of the pigment and it seems like no one really knows what it is. However, Dr. Wessel-Beaver does not think it's chlorophyll (01:02:49).

William S.

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #23 on: 2021-01-30, 08:05:42 AM »
Interesting, it sounds like from what you posted that the breeder of South Anna Butternut an OSSI registered variety has crossed now with the green fleshed Guatemalan. Perhaps in a few years he will have something to share. Though South Anna clocks in at 110 days. I'd like to perform the same experiment with Lofthouse Moschata also OSSI pledged and which ripens for me. Maybe one plant of each could be grown in my greenhouse. I have the seed for both now.
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William S.

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #24 on: 2021-05-30, 11:36:24 AM »
First green ayote cotyledon is kind of fun.
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William S.

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #25 on: 2021-08-27, 07:22:56 PM »
My pitiful 2021 grow out of green ayote is pumping out male flowers with beautiful leafy bracts. The greenhouse seeds only produced the one fasciated seedling and then slugs ate that.

I finally have one tiny fruit on either an Autumn's choice F3 or a Lofthouse. I ripped of the only green ayote flower
 I could find the day I noticed the female flower and used it to pollinate it.

Only problem is its almost September and things grow even slower in September. Though this bed gets a very long though very shaded growing season and last year I got one ripe moshata fruit from this same bed. It is a strange raised bed full of potting soil my mother made with wooden sides. So just maybe this fruit will ripen and I'll be on my way to a Montana hardy version. Or I saved some seed and will try again tomorrow.

The other place I planted a few moshatas got partially frosted in my second year in a row early August lite frost. It also has failed to produce a single fruit for which I blame a near total lack of weeding and perhaps poor watering and too much crowding on my part.

Weather wise this year has been fabulous for squash but not a good moschata year for me.
« Last Edit: 2021-08-27, 07:35:00 PM by William S. »
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William S.

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #26 on: 2021-09-01, 01:03:22 PM »
So I Googled up a number for a ripe squash from pollination. 45 days. Not sure I'll get there. I've tried to attach four photos of three squash.

1. Was pollinated about a week ago with hand pollination of green Guatemalan ayote as a possible father.

2. Was pollinated a few days ago father unknown.

3. Was hand pollinated today green ayote only known father with a male flower today.

This bed has gone as late as September 30 before frost based on 2019's weather thread. I might get viable seed back.

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William S.

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #27 on: 2021-10-03, 11:24:54 AM »
This is a green ayote. My guess is 30 days old. About four more days before a frost.
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Klaus Brugger

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #28 on: 2021-10-04, 01:55:52 PM »
So I Googled up a number for a ripe squash from pollination. 45 days. [...]

Brent Loy writes that the embryo has largely filled the seed coat cavity by day 35 but that seed fill continues until about day 55:
https://newenglandvfc.org/sites/newenglandvfc.org/files/content/proceedings2007/WinterSquash.pdf

But seed development will continue in picked immature fruit, so I hope that you'll get a good number of viable (if not fully filled) seeds!

William S.

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #29 on: 2021-10-04, 06:21:10 PM »
Cool, I hope it works out.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days