Author Topic: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan  (Read 309 times)

Garrett Schantz

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Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« on: 2020-12-28, 12:14:16 AM »
So I was looking at the Experimental Farm Network's Facebook page the other day, saw something interesting. A butternut type of squash with a sort of dark green flesh. Here is the Facebook link: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=1467813246807502&story_fbid=2804644213124392
 Quote from the post: "The flavor is surprisingly delicious, with all the sweet richness of a great butternut, but some additional flavors that are hard to put a finger on (spinach? candied papaya?). The scent of the raw squash is different too, with something distinctly tropical to it." Wondering if the color also has something to due with the flavor? I normally only see squash with orange flesh, sometimes yellowish-white etc.

 Has anyone tried this squash - anything similar to it? Wondering if it would have a unique taste from whatever chemical is making it green, or if its more of an exaggeration. If there is a unique flavor, it could be added to a Tetsukabuto descended hybrid being a moschata. Suppose the coloring could deter thieves, if anyone has issues with that.

Adrian

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #1 on: 2020-12-28, 01:24:31 AM »
The green pulpit is normaly a pepo gene?
And this gene is found in the bitters pepos?
« Last Edit: 2020-12-28, 01:28:44 AM by Adrian »

Woody Gardener

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #2 on: 2020-12-28, 07:21:34 AM »
I just checked the EFN store and saw this:
"IMPORTANT NOTE: Our online store is temporarily closed for maintenance. Our full 2021 catalogue will launch on Tuesday, January 5th featuring over 300 varieties, including dozens of exciting new offerings. Thank you for your patience!"

I've been waiting for this and plan to have a big order 1/5!


Garrett Schantz

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #3 on: 2020-12-28, 10:52:36 AM »
I'm probably going to have a decent sized order as well. They always have interesting new things each year. I have perennial korean celery, cold hardy plants etc. Will probably get good king henry, melothria pendula, phaseolus polystachios if it returns. Also this squash, but unsure if its even available this year. They had some other landrace squash that I may try out along with whatever new ones are offered.

Andrew Barney

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #4 on: 2020-12-28, 12:08:46 PM »
I just checked the EFN store and saw this:
"IMPORTANT NOTE: Our online store is temporarily closed for maintenance. Our full 2021 catalogue will launch on Tuesday, January 5th featuring over 300 varieties, including dozens of exciting new offerings. Thank you for your patience!"

I've been waiting for this and plan to have a big order 1/5!

Thank you for posting this!

Nicollas

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Garrett Schantz

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #6 on: 2021-01-05, 08:11:07 AM »
Ordered some, probably going to start these somewhat early inside because most plants are probably long season. Ordered a good bit of other nice things as well - Joseph's cowpeas, promiscuous tomato lines etc. Got some perennial herbs / greens.
Perennial - self seeders are always nice additions as I usually don't need to buy them again.

Klaus Brugger

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #7 on: 2021-01-10, 10:51:48 AM »
This is a really cool trait.
I wonder if it originally came from C. argyrosperma. Merrick (1990) writes about a dark green tint to the placental tissue being unique to var. stenosperma within domesticated subsp. argyrosperma.
There are a few C. argyrosperma accessions listed in GRIN that seem to have this trait, e. g.
PI 512123 (picture)
PI 196923 (picture)
PI 312167 (picture)
These three accessions are all of Mexican origin, but not all of them seem to belong to the same botanical variety. Maybe the trait has even found its way into close relative C. moschata ...
In 2017, Baker Creek Seeds posted a picture of a squash from Mexico that's presumably C. moschata with a vivid green to its placental tissue, "seeping" deep into the mesocarp. I don't think it has ever made it into their catalogue.

Merrick, L. C. (1990). Systematics and Evolution of a Domesticated Squash, Cucurbita argyrosperma, and Its Wild and Weedy Relatives. In D. M. Bates, R. W. Robinson, & C. Jeffrey (Eds.), Biology and Utilization of the Cucurbitaceae (pp. 77119). Ithaca: Cornell University Press.

William S.

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #8 on: 2021-01-10, 11:36:36 AM »
Yeah it's sold out already, I got my order in hope it comes through! Definitely one to add to the breeding project though.
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Garrett Schantz

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #9 on: 2021-01-10, 05:37:10 PM »
On the "Can squash varieties (ie., pepo, maxima, moschata etc) cross-pollinate / hybridize?" thread on permies, Joseph mentioned that he finds mixta/moschata hybrids frequently. (Mixta is the old name for argyrosperma, they can be used interchangeably) So it is quite possible that this could be descended from a hybrid.

Klaus Brugger

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #10 on: 2021-01-11, 03:52:09 AM »
There's also 'Aloha Atitlan' sold by the Hawaiʻi Seed Growers Network, a cross between a green-fleshed Guatemalan "ayote" (possibly the same that EFN offers) and a local moschata (to have the green flesh in a locally better adapted population).
Unfortuntely, it's also sold out at the moment: https://www.hawaiiseedgrowersnetwork.com/product-page/aloha-atitlan
Here's another picture of 'Aloha Atitlan': https://www.instagram.com/p/CBwuOfSjBjF/?igshid=tcpjpvqize3n

And here's another picture of a green-fleshed squash, possibly the same EFN offers, from a CBN variety showcase (second picture of the slide show): https://www.instagram.com/p/Bn-g0gngOEG/?igshid=17l15a8tuq33t .

William S.

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #11 on: 2021-01-12, 08:30:20 PM »
Crossing it into strains that actually grow here like my grex and Joseph's Moschata is definitely my goal with it. Although, probably better accomplished in the south or maybe in the greenhouse.

That culinary breeding network photoset also includes some moschata or agrosperma types with the yellow and green banding like in Autumn's choice and some of my agrosperma/Mospermia. That trait seems to be dominant so far in the Autumn's choice promiscuous dehybridization I'm doing. I suspect they crossed something with the banded trait to something like zucchino rampicante. Interesting.
« Last Edit: 2021-01-12, 09:30:11 PM by William S. »
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Garrett Schantz

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #12 on: 2021-01-13, 11:30:09 PM »
The Aloha Atitlan's description from store page: "This robust tropical moschata squash population comes from the marriage of the local Hawaiian landrace squash (marketed as 'kabocha') with a unique green-black fleshed landrace from Lago Atitlan in Guatemala. The shape of the squash is variable from short butternut to chubby pear. The flesh has a high amount of dry matter meaning it stays relatively firm and sticky when cooked. Recommended to let sit for few weeks or longer on shelf to sweeten even more. Mature when peduncle (the stem connecting fruit to vine) is dry. Fruits mature green with biege mottling, but while storing change to all biege. Vines love to run wild so plant where lots of space."

 The Aloha Atitlan's image shows a "chubby pear", short butternut types are shown on the instagram page. EFN's page shows a "short butternut" landrace also from Guatemala.
 Assuming that EFN is screening out for the darker green types of fruit, along with the butternut shape. Highly likely that they are the same landrace as Klaus mentioned.
 
The banded traits on the zucchino rampicante looking squash really do seem interesting. The third image showing a half green / half yellow long fruited squash - the final image shows a few more of them - all seem very nice looking. I suppose they are called "The Culinary Breeding Network" for a reason.

 Hawaiian Seed growers have a few nice looking things sourced from the USDA like Amaranth Aupa Malip(Ames 5111) - a pink stemed Amaranth used for greens. 'Chimbu' Purple Winged Bean(PI 477148) looks nice as well, there are day length neutral green podded types popping up in seed stores recently so there is potential for a breeding project searching for a purple podded type. They only ship to Hawaii though so most of us can't really do much with the squash or anything else sold there. Unless someone is able to find a USDA code that identifies the landrace.
Some results from searching "Ayote on the USDA's site:

PI 312125 is called Ayote and it was collected in Alta Verapaz, Guatemala, the name doesn't help much but the flesh color is listed as "variable" in the observation.
PI 438579 is has a green tinge https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1333515
PI 194570 has a slightly green tinge. https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1165298
 
The other green / odd types are seem to be from Mexico:


PI 438773 seems to be very yellow with green tinges on the outer corners. Good bit of other accessions from the area/same name are normally orange. https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1333709
PI 438782 is also yellow - somewhat green towards the middle maybe? https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1333718
PI 438799 is very yellow-tan, no signs of green though.https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1333735

PI 442275 https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1337211
PI 442277 https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1337213
PI 449345 https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1344281
PI 438791 has a green tinge as well. https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1333727
Most of the yellow types that I'm finding are having bits of green flesh as well.

PI 438788 is very green-black looking from what I can see. https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1333724
PI 449348 is just black - no green flesh from what the images show. I quite like the fruit's outer coloring and shape though. https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1344284
PI 451839 seems nice looking as well. https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/ImgDisplay?id=1346775


« Last Edit: Yesterday at 12:29:26 AM by Garrett Schantz »

Klaus Brugger

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 12:55:47 PM »
Wow, thank you, Garrett, for all this information. I love how knowledge accumulates in this forum.
Seems like this trait is more common than I thought in different types of C. moschata. I wonder why it seems to be more or less absent farther way from the center of diversity (at least in Europe and North America).

The banded tromboncino is from one of Jim Myers' breeding populations (Oregon State University). Apparently the yellow is from Columbian moschata material (https://www.instagram.com/p/BY86qWuAH5S/?igshid=1suzqk8y5h7mg). It would be interesting if this is a locus similar to B in C. pepo.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Green-Fleshed Guatemalan
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 04:09:11 PM »
Most of the types available seem to be landraces with variable size, flavor, color. Interesting that we mostly have uniform types sold and grown.
 The green still seems a bit rare. Those are the green types that I found after going through 15 pages on there. Butternuts are a fairly new squash, being bred in the 1940s if I remember correctly. Most moschata from seem to be green or black on the outside while we have tan colored types probably descended from one of these types - longer types probably fit into that area as well.