Author Topic: Phaselous Species / Crosses  (Read 2630 times)

Garrett Schantz

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Phaselous Species / Crosses
« on: 2020-10-27, 11:10:18 PM »
Saw a few posts about Runner Beans, Domestic x Runners, Lima etc. Figured I would make a general thread, which would include any other phaseolus species as well. Uncommon types like Phaseolus maculatus and such could be mentioned here - "Attractive perennial trailing vines found in southwest NM, AZ and northern Mexico above 5000'. Peas-sized beans are brown and black variegated. The Tarahumara make a glue from plant parts to mend gourd containers.   The beans have also bean used as medicine, in fermentation, and as forage.  Seeds are traditionally toasted before eating."
 Phaseolus dumosus is cultivated in Guatemala, Wikipedia (Not the best site for info but it has sources on the page) mentions it is actually a Phaseolus coccineus x P. vulgaris hybrid - it is also described as "perennial to annual". A lot of these are probably day length sensitive. Quite a few Phaseolus species used by natives - foraged / cultivated. But I can't find any due to most of them only being grown by tribes, foraged etc. GRIN probably has some of them, but I don't know if they would send seed out without actual straightforward breeding purposes.
 Phaseolus angustissimus is a close relative of tepary beans. Interesting leaves on Phaseolus filiformis and Phaseolus grayanus. Phaseolus polystachios var. sinuatus looks odd as well. 
 Most of my beans rotted due to excess rain in the spring. I had some that I planted for ornamental reasons that did grow and produce seed. Believe I posted about them on Permies.
 Posting an image of some bought seeds / saved seed.
Bottom Row Starting from left: Santa Catalina - Sycamore Canyon - Blue speckled tepary - Phaseolus Polystachios(PMN) - Succotash bean - Scarlet Runner Bean
Top Left: Strophostyles helvula  Middle: Tepary Beans, unsure found jumbled on table Top Right: Unripe Runners

 Posted smallest and largest types, along with off types. The two runner beans towards the right have a darker purple tint, the striping is somewhat blue compared to the others. Smallest of each variety are in the bottom row. The Santa Catalina are listed as one of Nativeseeds's smallest wild tepary beans - the leaves are quite different from cultivated types from what the images show on the site - very slender. Sycamore Canyon wild tepary is listed as one of the largest wild accessions they have. Both seem to vine more than cultivated types, also seem to require more scarification. Blue speckled tepary can't stand heat / humidity / drought. Phaseolus Polystachios from Prairiemoon is a perennial, haven't grown this one yet either.
 Most of these will be planted next year, possibly in pots due to day length sensitivity - allow for pods to mature, protect from excess rain etc. Vining tepary beans seem interesting, although they will have small beans/pods. I will probably buy some Lofthouse Tepary beans as well. Also some Limas from Southernexposure. Probably going to take a look at EFN's Polystachios if it comes back in stock - from my state so possibly decently adapted. Possibly Phaseolus maculatus from Nativeseeds if it returns - Covid panic buyers really hit their limited seed stocks hard from what I can tell.
 Will post images of the plants outdoors when I grow them next season. Any discussion about uses of unexplored Phaseolus species are welcome. Particular disease resistances or traits that these species have could be mentioned as well.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #1 on: 2020-11-04, 12:43:03 PM »
Germinated some of these as a test, I haven't scarified beans prior to this. Everything seems to have went well - used sandpaper. Results: Teparies appreciated scarification. Didn't notice anything different from usual with the Phaselous Vulgaris - Succotash bean that I tested. As for the Runner beans - too much moisture got in due to the scarification from what I could tell. I haven't been able to get Phaseolus polystachios to germinate with the method - it rotted, probably too much moisture.
 The underipe beans that I planted all rotted. Which was expected.
 I have tried out Phaseolus polystachios a few years ago, but none germinated in the ground. Do they require any special treatment, germination go up after being exposed to colder temperatures?

Posting some images. Left is runner beans, middle is teparies, right is succotash bean (vulgaris). The Succotash bean is one of the off types that I saved this year. It also took awhile to ripen for a dry bean. Usually ripens faster for me. Most of the beans were pretty large compared to beans from other plants as well, also climbed quite a bit. Could have crossed with something I suppose. Didn't really focus too much on them this year, so I didn't even look at the flowers.
 
I put these all back in the pots, but they might not grow due to my disturbing them, which I don't care much about as this was just me doing a test.
First image was taken a day before the second. Only took the Runner bean back out to check out the root growth.
« Last Edit: 2020-11-04, 12:46:05 PM by Garrett Schantz »

Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #2 on: 2020-11-04, 04:22:10 PM »
When I first started growing tepary beans, about 5%-10% of the beans were "hard seed", meaning that if I soaked them in water, they wouldn't absorb it. I did a couple of generations of selection against that trait, and greatly minimized it's prevalence.

I haven't ever found a common bean with the "hard seed" trait.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #3 on: 2020-11-04, 05:24:08 PM »
Thanks for the info. I haven't worked much with beans.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #4 on: 2020-11-09, 11:15:02 AM »
First image is from Succotash bean. Seed / parent plant was off-type. The bean - now filled with water is quite large. I only harvested the off-types dry, so I did not know they were this large. Cotyledons coloration are off type as well. Size comparison between water filled succotash and runner is in an image above. Second image is from another off-type succotash, started this one earlier just as a germination test. Third image is from off-type runner parent. Took the outer layers off without damaging anything just for photos, they came off rather nicely.

Diane Whitehead

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #5 on: 2020-11-10, 01:38:12 PM »
Only one additional species is described in Cornucopia II: A Sourcebook of Edible Plants

P. metcalfei    Southwestern North America   Pea-sized beans are cooked and eaten.  Young pods also eaten. In parts of Mexico, the roots are used as a catalyst in the preparation of tesguino, an alcoholic beverage. 

but then I found lots more in a much older book:  Sturtevant's Edible Plants of the World.  Dr. Sturtevant was director of the New York Agricultural Experiment Station in Geneva, N.Y. until 1887.  The manuscript he left behind was edited in 1919 by U.P. Hedrick, and republished (but not altered) by Dover in 1972.

There are many pages on types of lima beans and common beans.

I will just copy information on uncommon species you did not mention.  I suspect that many might now be considered Vigna rather than Phaseolus.

P aconitifolius  East Indies  Moth Bean,  Turkish Gram  Does not twine. Cultivated in India primarily for feeding animals, but people also eat it.

P adenanthus  East Indies   Cultivated for its seeds.  A variety with edible roots occurs.

P. asellus  Chile  In cultivation by the natives of Chile before the conquest.  The bean is spherical and pulpy.

P. calcaratus  East Indies and Malay  Rice Bean  twining  Cultivated in India for its pulse.

P. caracalla  Tropics  Caracol, Snail-Flower  Large showy and sweet-scented flowers It seems doubtful if the pod or pulse is eaten.  [Monrovia sells it in the U.S.and mentions there is also a less-scented one called Vigna caracalla]

P. derasus  South America  The beans are used as a vegetable.

P. mungo  Tropical Asia  Mung Bean

P. pallar  Chile  The beans are half an inch long

P retusus Western North America and common on the prairies west of the Pecos.  The seeds are about the size of peas; when still green, they make an acceptable dish after thorough cooking.

P. trilobus  Asia and tropical Africa  Cultivated in several varieties for its seeds which are eaten by the poorer classes.

P. tuberosus  Cochin China  This bean has edible, tuberous roots.


« Last Edit: 2020-11-10, 01:50:45 PM by Diane Whitehead »
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
cool mediterranean climate  warm dry summers, mild wet winters,  70 cm rain,   sandy soil

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #6 on: 2020-11-10, 05:19:23 PM »
I recognized P aconitifolius and P. mungo right away as I have grown them before. Both are Vigna, which as you mentioned they may have been reclassified to.
 The Phaselous species you listed that are apparently from Asia (India, China etc) stood out to me as well, the genus isn't found in Europe or Asia from what I can recall.

P.aconitifolius is now V. aconitifolia.
P. adenanthus is now V. adenantha from what I could find.
P. acellus, I can't find any notable information on.
P. calcaratus is now V. umbellata.
P. caracalla is either known as Cochliasanthus caracalla (Formerlly V. caracalla as well?) but is confused with a few other species.
P. derasus seems to be an "unresolved name" and I can't find any information on it except for the source that you mentioned. Could be an incorrect name, but I am unsure.
P. mungo is now V. mungo
P. pallar could be a synonym for P. lunatus
P. retusus appears to be a synonym of P. maculatus - possibly a subspecies
P. trilobus seems to be V. trilobata
P.tuberous could be Lathyrus tuberosus? V. vexillata and V. subterranea are possibilities, but they aren't really grown in China, especially true looking at the published date. Maybe Pachyrhizus erosus - Jicama, but it isn't native to China/Asia either. Psophocarpus tetragonolobus is a possibility as there are types with edible tubers, and records of them being used, found in: New Guinea, South/Southeast Asia.
 
 While almost all of these turned out to be Vigna species, these could make an entire thread of their own. Quite a few of these are underutilized. Vigna and Phaseolus are related, with all of the different species within each genus there could be a possibility of crossing them in the future. Embryo rescue and the like may be required though. The uses being listed are quite nice as well. Assuming Dr. Sturtevant's information was formerly accurate and was altered later on or he just misidentified a bunch of things. The book seems interesting in its own right. Vigna and Phaseolus do look quite similar. Although flower structure and a few other things set them apart.  Adzuki beans (Vigna angularis) seem to be the best performing Vigna species in my climate. The "uncommon" Vigna species appear to be easier to obtain than Phaseolus species.
 
 Any information on the wild Phaseolus species seems to be reports from early botanists learning uses from Native Americans, or from studies looking at resistances that could be transferred to P. vulgaris. 

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #7 on: 2020-12-06, 07:11:13 PM »
Update on some of the germ tests I did on the off type beans.
 First two images are the same runner bean from the previous images.
 The other two images  are from a smaller off type runner bean I found laying around from last year - seed coat had turned brown from laying out. The cotyledons among other things are odd.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #8 on: 2021-04-08, 10:31:28 PM »
Might as well post a few different species / varieties of beans.

First image - P. vulgaris: Scalzo Italian Bean, New Mexico Bolitas, Succotash, Slippery Silks, Half White Sugar, Lohrey's Old Tasmanian, Autumn Zebra, Marvel Of Venice, Pakistan White Shooter, Birdsong Mountaingem. Some of these are easily found on image searches if you want to know which is which.

Scalzo Italian and New Mexico Bolitas look similar - Bolitas is the smaller bean.
Marvel Of Venice is usually a white seeded variety - this one is black seeded.
Pakistan White Shooter is about the size of a blue speckled tepary. Pods apparently burst easily when dried. Probably a bit of wild genes.
Slippery Silks has red pods - Marvel Of Venice has yellow flattened pods.
Lohrey's Old Tasmanian / Autumn Zebra are supposed to have unique tastes.
The others are nice too, good bit of diversity here.

I have bush beans that I didn't post here.

In Europe ornamental-edible beans are apparently common. Hoping to start the trend in the U.S. as well.

I eventually want to add the self-incompatible trait from runner beans. Eventually we could end up with our own landrace SI common beans.

Second image - P. acutifolius:

Top left: Sycamore Canyon Wild
Top Right: Santa Catalina Wild
Bottom Left: Blue Specked
Bottom Right: Lofthouse Landrace

The wild types are apparently "weak" climbers. Cultivated types are bush beans. Might be interesting to try and breed a pole tepary - any types that end up being bush beans could go to Joseph or anyone else who wants diversity. Pole types might be nice to grow in wetter climates where bush types could be more prone to disease. These won't be grown near other species (Until I can make sure that these aren't diseased).

Third image - P. lunatus / P. polystachios

Top: P. polystachios
Left: Alma's PA Dutch
Right: Christmas Lima

Alma's PA Dutch is supposed to be more cold tolerance than most limas.

P. polystachios is closely related to P. lunatus, but I would probably have to emasculate some flowers - a perennial lima sounds like it would be nice.

Fourth image - P. coccineus:

Top Left: Golden Sunshine - Chartreuse foliage
Top-Middle: Sunset - Salmon pink blossoms
Top-Right: Painted Lady Improved - Bi-colored blossoms
Bottom-Right: Scarlet Runner
Bottom-Middle: Austrian Kaeferbohnen - Large beans

I have seeds from last year's plants as well.


The Runner beans will cross easily with each other. Ideally I will end up with a chartreuse bi-colored large seeded short season runner bean at some point. I could probably do controlled crosses here. Scarlet / Sunset runner beans won't have many plants as they don't really have desirable traits - but any added disease resistances and other such things would be appreciated.

Pole beans seem to be more attractive to bees, at least in my area. Probably a higher chance of cross pollination since the flowers will be closer.

If I remember correctly, others on here have obtained a good amount of lima beans. Limas apparently pollinate themselves before the flower opens - similar to common beans.

Lot of Phaselous species have been domesticated more than one time, using different ancestors.

If anyone else has diverse beans to post here, please do share. If these all grow well for me, I should be able to share seed.

Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #9 on: 2021-04-09, 12:10:37 AM »
Based on what I've grown, I wouldn't call tepary beans bush beans, and not pole beans either. They are vining, but they just flop onto whatever happens to be in the way, they don't twist around things, and are thus not capable of "climbing".

"Clump forming vine" might be a good way to describe tepary beans.

For what it's worth, I'm miffed about the anti-tepary bean meme that has been floating around the Internet for decades. Sorry teparies, trying to right this particular idea would be more effort than I want to expend at this time.
« Last Edit: 2021-04-09, 12:19:20 AM by Joseph Lofthouse »

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #10 on: 2021-04-09, 05:32:55 AM »
Yeah, clump forming vines sounds like a good terminology.

I said "pole" for the wild types because nativeseeds mentions that they climb a bit. Maybe pole wouldn't be the best way to describe them.

Bunch of beans have sort of in-between forms regarding bush-clumping-pole.

https://www.nativeseeds.org/products/pw104
The Santa Catalina Wild Tepary shown on the second image of the gallery is definitely climbing up a post.

https://www.nativeseeds.org/products/pw108
Sycamore Canyon also appears to climb a bit in the provided images.

It could be that the twining types are a subspecies, not too sure.

Nativeseeds lists the domesticated teparies as "Habit: some twining but not a vigorous climber" - Low desert. Phaseolus acutifolius var. tenuifolius

They list most of the wilds that they sell as "Habit: Plant will twine and climb" - High desert. Phaseolus acutifolius var. latifolius

Unsure of what to call the wild types growth habit.

I grew regular teparies last year and they were definitely more of a clumping type. I will probably note down any differences here when I grow them.

reed

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #11 on: 2021-04-09, 06:20:24 AM »
I haven't been able to get Phaseolus polystachios to germinate with the method - it rotted, probably too much moisture.
 The underipe beans that I planted all rotted. Which was expected.
 I have tried out Phaseolus polystachios a few years ago, but none germinated in the ground. Do they require any special treatment, germination go up after being exposed to colder temperatures?

I've found Phaseolus polystachios to be pretty easy to sprout here in my climate. First year I planted some in the ground and some in pots in the cold frame. Both sprouted about the same time and since them have self seeded. The ones from the cold frame transplanted easily. They truly are perennial but I don't know for how long, I think the older ones might die out after a few years but can't tell for sure because new ones are always coming up too.
*those first seeds I planted were just stored over winter, no cold or other treatments.

Phaseolus coccineus grows well here but mostly just as an ornamental, humming birds love the flowers but production of actual beans is very sparse. Even by saving our own seeds for several years production has not significantly improved but the those beans it does produce have increased in size.  Growing in considerable shade does help a little on production. It is very large climbing vine. The crosses between it and Phaseolus vulgaris that I have grown are even larger and more vigorous but no more productive.
« Last Edit: 2021-04-09, 06:54:42 AM by reed »

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #12 on: 2021-04-09, 08:30:29 AM »
Yeah Phaseolus coccineus barely produced the first year I grew it. It produced a bunch of flowers for me last year, but I moved it into an entirely different area from where it was growing before. Bees didn't go to it right away, hummingbirds visited it. Probably would have gotten quite a few beans if it had been pollinated better.

I grow it mainly as an ornamental - would be nice if I could increase the harvest size though. Hoping to find a variety with better production.

One of my vulgaris types looks like it crossed with a runner bean. Unsure of which variety because I didn't label my different types, I just save beans with the same uses together.

I stored Phaseolus polystachios in a cold room during the fall / winter. I might try planting some in pots early.

Jeremy Weiss

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #13 on: 2021-04-09, 12:08:11 PM »
Possibly Phaseolus maculatus from Nativeseeds if it returns - Covid panic buyers really hit their limited seed stocks hard from what I can tell.

As of the last time I got their catalog, they weren't listing P. maculatus anymore (and it was members only even when it was listed).  And I'm not sure whether the the NS/S problem is the COVID panic or a move towards selling EXCUSIVELY to tribal people (at the moment about 3/4 of the catalog is Tribal orders only, but whether that is just to make sure they get their seeds or this is a new permanent policy I do not know.

I MAY have some vulgaris-lunatus crosses min my bean stock. At least I have some seeds I found that look a lot like what I would think a vulgaris lunatus cross would look like (they have the sort of angled look lima beans have but are extremely plump for limas.  Whether they will GROW is another matter (I haven't been able to get anything from that lot of seeds to grow yet.)

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Phaselous Species / Crosses
« Reply #14 on: 2021-04-09, 01:29:00 PM »
As of the last time I got their catalog, they weren't listing P. maculatus anymore (and it was members only even when it was listed).  And I'm not sure whether the the NS/S problem is the COVID panic or a move towards selling EXCUSIVELY to tribal people (at the moment about 3/4 of the catalog is Tribal orders only, but whether that is just to make sure they get their seeds or this is a new permanent policy I do not know.

I MAY have some vulgaris-lunatus crosses min my bean stock. At least I have some seeds I found that look a lot like what I would think a vulgaris lunatus cross would look like (they have the sort of angled look lima beans have but are extremely plump for limas.  Whether they will GROW is another matter (I haven't been able to get anything from that lot of seeds to grow yet.)

I saw P. maculatus for a short time in the crop wild relatives section. Very short time. Lot of things were also moved to the Tribal section like you said. They have a lot of fun things to breed with.

They were requesting lumber, woodchippers and tools a month or so ago. Assuming that they don't make a huge profit.

Their site kept going offline to send out orders all throughout Covid. Lot of items moved over to the native section during that time. I am guessing that it's to make sure the natives get seed.

Some of the Phaseolus species have different root systems which can kill the hybrid early on. Cutting one of them off supposedly works well. Could try seeing if that's the issue with your supposed hybrid.