Author Topic: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)  (Read 4155 times)

William S.

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #15 on: 2021-04-10, 09:52:58 AM »
Does anyone know what happens when you cross a dwarf and a determinate? Can you make a determinate dwarf?

Answer is yes here is a determinate dwarf yellow:

https://www.tomatofest.com/Sean_s_Yellow_Dwarf_Organic_Tomato_Seeds_p/tf-0447m.htm

Here is a determinate dwarf red:

https://www.tomatofest.com/Rosella_Crimson_Dwarf_Organic_Tomato_Seeds_p/tf-0428c4.htm
« Last Edit: 2021-04-10, 10:04:47 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #16 on: 2021-04-10, 10:20:23 AM »
https://www.tomatofest.com/Dwarf_Caitydid_Organic_Tomato_Seeds_p/tf-0153d4.htm

The photo seems to show a antho bicolor. Antho is not mentioned in the description. Pesta Strain Mortgage lifter is apparently a bicolor. Is it also antho? Is Dward Caitydid really antho or is it not? https://osseeds.org/ossi-varieties/dwarf-caitydid/ OSSI description says it has red swirls in and out. I suspect that what I thought from the photo might be antho is actually red skin patches but still a little uncertain. Are there any antho dwarfs? Answer is Yes there is a tomato called Antho Striped Dwarf. Though it does not seem to appear yet on the OSSI seed listing under that name at least.

Also some of the dwarf project plants are very long season, some sources list Dwarf Caitydid as 80 days. Wonder what the relationship between DTM (Days to Maturity) and Dwarf is.

Payette which may be the only rugose leaved dwarf I've ever grown is 68 DTM. So it seems like it might be possible to produce both long DTM dwarfs and short DTM dwarfs. I bet fruit size has a lot to do with the DTM on dwarfs. Payette has relatively small fruits.

I guess I don't see any existing dwarfs that I am excited about particularly. So I am inclined to cross a tomato I like with Payette.

Also I am pretty convinced that the potential Payette cross is a contaminate but will probably let it ride awhile to make sure. Rugose leaves would be telling and those should develop soon.

I overwatered a tray and it is not doing well. Wonder if I should plant a replacement.

https://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/data/acc/genes.aspx
Found this link on tomatoville with instructions to scroll to D. Lots or variations on dwarf genes listed. Intriguing.
« Last Edit: 2021-04-10, 07:29:49 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #17 on: 2021-04-11, 07:54:18 PM »
http://thetomatolady.com/tomato-varieties/suitable-for-patio-and/dwarf-krainiy-sever.html

I remember direct seeding Krainiy Sever in 2017. It was a great boring red tomato. Pretty early. Wonderful architecture self supporting. In retrospect that is the dwarf trait or a version thereof sometimes referred to as tree type. I have one cell planted into it for 2021. So I guess I have previously grown two dwarf project type dwarfs. Both relatively boring reds.
« Last Edit: 2021-04-12, 08:04:56 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #18 on: 2021-04-21, 11:04:57 PM »
Payette, Krainy Sever, and Dwarf Hirsutum Cross I suspect these three may all be dwarfs in the dwarf tomato project sense. The rest of the varieties are all much taller. So possibly on Dwarf Hirsutum and confident on the other two. The dwarf hirsutum might be starting to show leaf characters consistent with the rugose potato leaf appearance. All boring reds though but the architecture is intriguing. Now just need to cross them with something exciting.

Note added by my future self: I don't think Dwarf Hirsutum Cross is a dwarf in the rugose leaved sense.
« Last Edit: 2021-12-26, 12:52:53 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

SeanInVa

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #19 on: 2021-06-06, 03:34:53 PM »
Does anyone know what happens when you cross a dwarf and a determinate? Can you make a determinate dwarf?

Answer is yes

There are at least a few determinate dwarfs in the project. One that I have grown (and growing again) is "Dwarf Mocha's Cherry" that is a antho grape/elongated determinate dwarf. I thought I had some pictures of the plants in full fruit set, but apparently not. Will try and get some this year.

William S.

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #20 on: 2021-06-06, 10:52:36 PM »
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.craiglehoullier.com/blog1/2020/12/8/2020-garden-year-in-review-dwarf-tomato-project-research-work%3fformat=amp

Craig has two versions of the dwarf mocha's cherry on his 2020 in review page. A cherry and a plum.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

SeanInVa

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #21 on: 2021-06-07, 05:36:08 AM »
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.craiglehoullier.com/blog1/2020/12/8/2020-garden-year-in-review-dwarf-tomato-project-research-work%3fformat=amp

Craig has two versions of the dwarf mocha's cherry on his 2020 in review page. A cherry and a plum.

Oddly enough, I had three plants last year, two produced plum shaped and one produced round shaped. I'm growing a few of each this year. And yes, they were small plants (notes I have show they grew to approximately 2-2.5 ft in height, and fruited like crazy).

William S.

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #22 on: 2021-12-25, 02:13:22 PM »
I got some eight or so Dwarf Tomato Project varieties to try for 2022.

Dwarf Galen's Yellow
Dwarf Desert Star
Dwarf Orange Cream
Dwarf Saucy Mary
Dwarf Sunny's Pear
Dwarf Bendigo Moon
Banana Toes
Kelly Green
« Last Edit: 2021-12-25, 04:22:47 PM by William S. »
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nathanp

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #23 on: 2021-12-25, 06:53:02 PM »
I've grown these ones:
   Wherokowhai Tomato
   Uluru Ochre tomato
        Dwarf Laura's Bounty
   Sweet Adelaide Tomato
   Dwarf Sweet Sue 
   Mallee Rose Tomato
   Banana Toes Tomato - Two versions of this one.  One from Victory Seeds and an older line from Craig, that is not quite as stable.
   Dwarf Almandine Tomato 
        Dwarf Golden Gypsy

I grew all of them in 2020, and grew just Wherokowhai and Uluru Ochre this year.  I really should regrow all of them as my evaluation was not very thorough and the plot was rather unmanaged in 2020.

Banana Toes was the most productive of them all in 2020.  Wherokowhai has been a bit too long season for my area, but I am hoping to eventually adapt it .



Roland

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #24 on: 2021-12-26, 12:13:42 PM »
Can u tell more about Dwarf Sweet Sue?
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nathanp

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William S.

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #26 on: 2021-12-26, 12:55:06 PM »
I tried to stick with short season non red fancy dwarfs but the flavor possibilities I may be overlooking alarm me!
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #27 on: 2021-12-26, 09:34:30 PM »
I looked up the dwarf tomatoes I just acquired pedigrees on Victory Seeds.

Dwarf Orange Cream is from the Tipsy family which is Golden Dwarf Champion x Elbe

Dwarf Galen's Yellow and Dwarf Desert Star are sister varieties from the Plucky family which is Galina x Golden Dwarf Champion. I've heard of Galina before and I got a packet for Christmas so may be trying it as well.

Dwarf Bendigo Moon is from the Snowy family which is snow white cherry x the sleepy family which is Budai Torpe x Stump of The World

Dwarf Kelly Green is from the Sneezy Family which is Dwarf Golden Champion x Green Giant. Green Giant is spoken of highly by Craig Lehouillier who considers it a top ten for flavor and mentions in his podcast that everything descended from Green Giant has been tasty.

Dwarf Saucy Mary is in the Kiwi Family which is from the Kiwi Family of Dino Eggs x F2 Lazy family which is Kangaroo Brown paw x Purple Russian and Kangaroo Paw Brown is the witty family which is Boudai Torpe x Cherokee Green which was a Craig Lehouillier discovery from Cherokee Brown which was discovered in Cherokee Purple.

Dwarf Sunny's pear came from the Sunny Family x Orange Pear and the Sunny family came from Tipsy x orange heirloom. Tipsy was Golden Dwarf Champion X Elbe the parent of Dwarf Orange Cream.

Banana Toes is Dwarf Golden Heart x Speckled Roman with Dwarf Golden Heart being Anna Banana Russian x Roza Vetrov

Then I might get Dwarf Fred's Tie Dye soon which is dwarf wild fred x pink berkeley tie dye with dwarf wild fred being new big dwarf x carbon.

Payette an heirloom dwarf I've grown is an open book pedigree: bounty x Solanum peruvianum x Bison x Sioux x Solanum habrochaites x Sioux with a bunch of backcrosses to Sioux such that it is mostly Sioux except that does not explain well how it became a rugose dwarf!

Krainiy Sever also an older pre project rugose dwarf in my collection is a complete mystery as to ancestry other than it was bred in Russia is early and keeps the fruit off the ground Tatiana says it is surprisingly sweet for an early. I first grew it in 2017 and noticed it didn't need support! I grew payette and Krainiy Sever together in 2021 and they both hold the tomatoes off the ground. I'm hopeful that is common if not universal amongst the dwarfs. Though it might also be a feature of my growing conditions. 

The microdwarfs I have picked up are all mysterious to me as to breeding. They are very small plants even when grown in the ground.

It strikes me that given the attention the Dwarf Tomato Project has been paying to capturing heirloom tomato diversity and flavor that it is probably a gold mine for tomato flavor. So if you take it and apply another tomato goal such as shortness of season or late blight resistance then you can probably use it as a jumping off point. Though another lesson from it seems to be that relatively few original crosses create a lot of diversity. Which is part of why I tried to gather up some different tomato colors in the first eight I picked to grow for next year. It makes sense to me to cross any favorite or fancy tomato that you like with another tomato that might have something complementary. For Dwarfs I currently think of that as the neat thing I noticed with Krainiy Sever- they may not need staking to keep their fruit off the ground. 
« Last Edit: 2021-12-26, 10:30:48 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #28 on: 2022-03-27, 10:05:13 PM »
https://www.victoryseeds.com/tomato_dwarf-eagle-smiley.html

I just found this Dwarf Tomato Variety on Victory Seeds website.

Its dwarf mother is on the OSSI site but not it yet. It is interesting because it is the result of a cross with Craig's favorite currant tomato "Mexico Midget". Currant tomato genetics probably really increases the potential for useful traits like disease resistance. I had been thinking it odd that I hadn't found such a tomato with that currant tomato as an ancestor given Craig's top ten list in his book. There is also one bred with the Everglades currant tomato as an ancestor.

Dwarf Mother:

https://osseeds.org/ossi-varieties/summertime-green/

Also it is kind of interesting that red x green = yellow. I sometimes wonder if some of these things make sense as reported by the dwarf tomato project or might involve additional accidental crosses while still unstable.
« Last Edit: 2022-03-28, 05:42:08 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Roland

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Re: Tell me more about the Dwarf Tomato Project! :)
« Reply #29 on: 2022-03-29, 01:40:31 PM »
The yellow is needed to get Green when ripe fruit. so its normal to get some F2 plants that are yellow from a cross red x green.
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