Author Topic: Watermelon seed leaf size  (Read 593 times)

Lauren

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Watermelon seed leaf size
« on: 2020-04-20, 08:25:57 PM »
Does anyone know if seed leaf size is significant to the size of the eventual watermelon? I have two distinct seed leaf sizes and I'm trying to eliminate the descendants of the Sugar Baby from my watermelon landrace. They grow very slowly but are usually the first to get male blossoms (therefore cross pollinate) and the fruit comes on very late.

Woody Gardener

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #1 on: 2020-04-21, 06:46:36 AM »
Does anyone know if seed leaf size is significant to the size of the eventual watermelon? I have two distinct seed leaf sizes and I'm trying to eliminate the descendants of the Sugar Baby from my watermelon landrace. They grow very slowly but are usually the first to get male blossoms (therefore cross pollinate) and the fruit comes on very late.

A quick aside. Sugar Baby was the first watermelon I grew because it was so over hyped by the seed companies. After I tried other melons I quickly dropped SB as worthless in my garden.

Ferdzy

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #2 on: 2020-04-21, 07:53:56 AM »
I suspect you don't want to hear this, but I think the answer is, not really. I mean, I think there is some correlation, but it will be masked by the fact that there is also a fair bit of variation between seedling plants of the same variety.

And yeah, I do not get the love for Sugar Baby. Small Shining light is a similar watermelon and way, way better - a few days later but a sturdier plant, bigger melons, and they keep well, unlike Sugar Baby. I think Sugar Baby is famous for it's fame, basically.

Is there a way you can plant your two different leaf sizes in two different spots? I've found even a hundred feet, with other vegetables in between, has had no cross-pollination over several years. I did have a bird (?) MOVE A SEED once, which buggered up that year completely, but other than that it's been fine.

Andrew Barney

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #3 on: 2020-04-21, 09:43:52 AM »
Yeah, the answer is probably maybe but not really. I've seen a correlation between seed size and leaf size (at least in seedling stage), but that is not helpful.

Your best bet would be to just stop saving seeds from any fruits that match SB. You won't stop pollen flow,  but eventually after a few seasons most will be gone.

SB is ok, nothing too interesting. The real one that does not live up to its hype (at least in my climate) is Blacktail Mountain. Not cold tolerant,  does not grow well,  not tasty. Hasn't been grown in Idaho or northern climates by the original breeder in over 10 years,  so its lost whatever made it unique. It probably grows well in the southern US where most seed companies produce it.

Lauren

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #4 on: 2020-04-21, 01:03:46 PM »
Thanks. These all came from the same size seed, so no correlation there. I haven't been keeping seeds from anything with a small melon since the first year, but I'm still ending up with a majority small melons.

I think I'll put the small leaved melons in front of the house and the others in the back. If there turns out to be a correlation, I'll make sure I come back and let you know!

Steve1

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #5 on: 2020-06-11, 09:47:04 PM »
There is often a good correlation between seed leaf size and hybrid vigour or heterosis. I'm guessing too, that won't correlate with fruit size, but will likely with vine vigor and *perhaps yield. We run a prac where we grow inbred parents (Brassicas), the F1 hybrid and the F2 selfed and it comes out pretty visibly - though the parents need to have good combining ability. Hope that helps.
 

Lauren

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #6 on: 2020-07-20, 10:46:23 AM »
Larger leaves = hybrid vigor? Or the other way around?

Adrian

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #7 on: 2020-07-20, 04:14:29 PM »
The principales leafs able to detetminate the vigor are the cotyledons and their size is normaly determinate by the size of the seed and the nutrient reserve wich grow the cotyledons.
A plant with a tall cotyledons do a best photosynthesis than a plant with  little cotyledons.
For me its depend of the genes wich determinate the size of the seed and the time and nutrient used for developped the seed by the plant.
However i have put a few experiences with cucurbita maxima: the plant autofecondate has been a seeds more tall than my hybrid. I have choose a male parent with a very little fruit with  just1 seed viable. My plant f1 was has a developpement less important and the seeds more little than my plant autofecondate.
I think that a pollen male and female compatible developped a seed more developped. The choise of the parents is important and could influenced the vigor.
This year i have grow tetsukabuto a far crossbreeding maxima x moschata,and he has a more tall leaf and a best developpement than the others squashs of the garden.Its for my a little more complicated that we could think.
The vigor for me is just a factor as an other selected in the crossbreedind: we could for me select other fzctors as the color of the fruit,nutrients or a character wich we could not see.
« Last Edit: 2020-07-21, 02:37:26 PM by Adrian »

Lauren

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #8 on: 2020-10-11, 05:56:12 PM »
Answer: No. All the melons (small seed leaves in front, large seed leaves in back) had the same size fruit.

reed

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #9 on: 2020-10-12, 08:54:17 AM »
What about seed size?? Ever notice anything there? Seems to me that in my garden most of the ones I like best have smaller darker colored seeds.

I think it might correlate some on fruit size too but I actually select for smaller fruit. I like a vine that makes several under ten pounds over one or two great big ones.

Andrew Barney

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #10 on: 2020-10-12, 12:21:47 PM »
What about seed size?? Ever notice anything there? Seems to me that in my garden most of the ones I like best have smaller darker colored seeds.

I think it might correlate some on fruit size too but I actually select for smaller fruit. I like a vine that makes several under ten pounds over one or two great big ones.

I don't know if it is an exact correlation or just coincidence, but i too have observed in the landrace waternelon breeding that the ones with smaller black seeds often are in the melons that taste the best.

Adrian

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #11 on: 2020-10-12, 01:28:20 PM »
The fruits are may not more big but the plant is more vigorous at the start of the grow but for me she can lost fast her advance if she grow in a not adapted conditions.
You can see a test with differents size of seeds with cucurbita maxima 
The cotyledons are differents sizes.
 
http://opensourceplantbreeding.org/forum/index.php?topic=361.0
finaly any plant among the threes was not given fruits.
« Last Edit: 2020-10-12, 09:36:02 PM by Adrian »

Dominic J

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #12 on: 2020-11-04, 05:51:40 AM »
Does anyone know if seed leaf size is significant to the size of the eventual watermelon? I have two distinct seed leaf sizes and I'm trying to eliminate the descendants of the Sugar Baby from my watermelon landrace. They grow very slowly but are usually the first to get male blossoms (therefore cross pollinate) and the fruit comes on very late.

Bigger seeds means bigger cotyledons. I have absolutely observed quicker growth on seedlings with more cotyledon surface, whether due to seed difference or mechanical damage to cotyledons when shedding their tugumens. I have not observed it if makes much of a difference on the long term.

In your picture, though, the second plant seems to have stunted curled cotyledons. I'm not sure what causes this, probably a disease, as almost all seedlings I had with such cotyledons died fairly quickly.

Steve1

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Re: Watermelon seed leaf size
« Reply #13 on: 2020-11-10, 08:32:08 PM »
Larger leaves = hybrid vigor? Or the other way around?

Yes, large leaves = more heterosis / hybrid vigor. When talking about inbreds and hybrids anyway.