Author Topic: 2020 tomato plans  (Read 659 times)

William S.

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2020 tomato plans
« on: 2020-01-16, 05:18:34 PM »
Feeling tomato plant withdrawal today and there are squash on my seed starting rack still.  Looking through old tomato threads and thinking about 2020.

I plan to grow lots of a F2 of Big Hill x W4 in 2020. That's my priority.

Need to grow out Arcanum and see if it hybridized with Peruvianum. Suppose that will go in the usual bed.

Have a couple of envelopes of Big Hill and red-blue ambrosia with a high probability of outcrossing to various half wilds.

Have a big envelope of wild stuff for direct seeding but I think I'm going to cool it a little on that- though one row wouldn't hurt maybe.

Have a couple nice domestic crosses ready for an F3 growout. One that I might prioritize is a exserted red tiger type. It might still segregate to yellow. I have yellow from the cross but it's not exserted. That might still segregate out though if I went the other way. It was direct seeded so will probably go that route again.

Probably will grow a few seeds of a not exserted bicolor with blue skin F3.

Can't do everything justice though. Like the plant I thought was a three way interspecies cross last year. What did it cross with and how will it segregate? Might not be the year to find out if I want to prioritize something with a higher likelihood of producing something edible sooner... Will miss having so many wild species this year though.

What are your 2020 tomato plans?
« Last Edit: 2020-01-16, 07:17:22 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

nathanp

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #1 on: 2020-01-16, 08:52:41 PM »
I am planning to grow 8 dwarf tomato varieties out of the dwarf tomato project, as well as Opalka, and try to cross those with some of the Late Blight and Septoria resistant lines that I have.


        Dwarf Almandine Tomato  (Leggy Family)
   Sweet Adelaide Tomato  (Happy Family)   
   Mallee Rose Tomato (Rosy Family)   
   Wherokowhai Tomato  (Dizzy Family)
   Uluru Ochre tomato (Rosy Family)
   Dwarf Sweet Sue   (Sneezy Family)
        Dwarf Laura's Bounty (Leggy Family)
   Dwarf Golden Gypsy (Tipsy Family)  .
   Opalka

       Skykomish (Homozyous for Ph2 and Ph3)
       Piennelo del Vesuvio F3 (probably homozygous for Septoria resistance)
       
   
   

William S.

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #2 on: 2020-01-17, 07:13:01 AM »
I haven't been bitten very hard by the dwarf bug yet. Was wondering if I should try one. Though I do have a couple in my collection named or described as dwarf but not from the dwarf project. Dwarf Hirsutum Cross by J and L gardens and Sweet Cherriette from Tim Peters which is described as an indeterminate dwarf.

Though all my tomato plants end up small. I think they hit the clay accumulation layer or something and it keeps them small.

I think I may largely skip a year with the PH2 and PH3 homozygous strains. If I grow them it will just be a couple plants.

Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

ImGrimmer

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #3 on: 2020-01-17, 09:09:03 AM »
Sorry I didn`t read the whole thread... which strains of homozygotic PH2 and PH3 do you have? Maybe NC 2 CELBR?
By the way is the a reseller of Josephs seeds?
experimentalfarmnetwork.org has only a small selection of his varieties.

William S.

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #4 on: 2020-01-17, 09:44:41 AM »
Sorry I didn`t read the whole thread... which strains of homozygotic PH2 and PH3 do you have? Maybe NC 2 CELBR?
By the way is the a reseller of Josephs seeds?
experimentalfarmnetwork.org has only a small selection of his varieties.

I grew three homozygous ph2 and ph3 last year that someone sent me. Plus I bought Iron Lady. Perhaps Nathan? I would have to check. It was nice. I really liked the little one best. Can't think of its name offhand. Skykomish is nice but late. Iron lady has very few seeds so I only saved a few.

No experimental farm network is definitely the greatest concentration of Lofthouse and Lofthouse inspired plant material available in 2020 and I am worried about the future supply of Joseph's body of work. My base thought is that those of us who appreciate it should maybe work with experimental farm network to keep the supply available of Lofthouse strains but also and perhaps more importantly Lofthouse inspired strains. I think I've said this before, but his teachings may be more important than the actual products, though in my case the actual products may be really appropriate given similar soils and climate. Basically I am about a days drive north of Joseph on similar glacier lake derived soils. His stuff does great here. There are things of Joseph's I've not yet gotten like his Okra and others I fear I've lost like his spinach. I really want to keep focusing primarily on tomatoes for awhile- until something acceptable segregates out and stabilizes. From the tomato standpoint alone nothing but peruvianum of Joseph's is being offered in 2020. I think, perhaps irrationally, it would be nice to grow out and offer them all to fellow breeders in 2021. Unless more are waiting seed testing or something.

There are a few sources for a couple Lofthouse varieties other than Experimental Farm Network like Resilient Seeds offers his Moschata squash.

Mike Jennings set up his Etsy store and was/is selling a nice little selection of Lofthouse inspired grexes. https://www.etsy.com/shop/DiabloValleyFarm?ref=search_shop_redirect

Joseph said recently on one of his permies.com threads that he is shifting his focus more to teaching, which is great. He is also still going to work on the obligate outcrossing tomatoes. However his actual garden is getting substantially smaller.
« Last Edit: 2020-01-17, 10:14:51 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

ilouque

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #5 on: 2020-01-17, 11:54:18 AM »
I'll be growing 5 dwarf varieties this year. I tried to pick varieties that seemed somewhat disease resistant in the descriptions online, but I'm in a hot and humid climate so I'll focus on selecting plants that grow well and produce well.

Varieties:
Uluru Ochre (Rosy family)
Wherokowhai (Dizzy family)
Dwarf Jade Beauty (Sneezy family)
Dwarf Mr. Snow (Sneezy family)
Dwarf Vince's Haze (Hazy family)

nathanp

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #6 on: 2020-01-17, 04:16:41 PM »
I grew three homozygous ph2 and ph3 last year that someone sent me. Plus I bought Iron Lady. Perhaps Nathan? I would have to check. It was nice. I really liked the little one best. Can't think of its name offhand. Skykomish is nice but late. Iron lady has very few seeds so I only saved a few.

I think I might have sent you Lizzano, which is a small variety that is highly LB resistant and homozygous with Ph2 and Ph3. 

The varieties I am aware of that are homozygous for PH2 and PH2 are these:
Iron Lady
Lizzano
Skykomish (from Tom Wagner)
Crimson Crush

Quote from: ilouque
I'll be growing 5 dwarf varieties this year. I tried to pick varieties that seemed somewhat disease resistant in the descriptions online, but I'm in a hot and humid climate so I'll focus on selecting plants that grow well and produce well.

Varieties:
Uluru Ochre (Rosy family)
Wherokowhai (Dizzy family)
Dwarf Jade Beauty (Sneezy family)
Dwarf Mr. Snow (Sneezy family)
Dwarf Vince's Haze (Hazy family)

I've never grown any of the dwarf varieties so that will be new for me this year.  They just strike me as perhaps more efficient for the yield to size ratio, and I won't need to support the plants as well as indeterminate varieties.  They also seem to have a fairly well documented track record in their selection for taste.  I selected varieties which are paste types, paste like, or meaty varieties that would be good for canning.

William S.

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #7 on: 2020-01-17, 04:22:25 PM »
Yep, Lizzano. I think it's a good dehybridization project in itself. Would be good for winter breeding maybe with a small high powered grow light.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

nathanp

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #8 on: 2020-01-17, 04:26:05 PM »
Also, regarding Joseph Lofthouse's seed, you can see some of those who sell his seed here:
https://osseeds.org/seeds/

William S.

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #9 on: 2020-01-17, 04:54:01 PM »
Also, regarding Joseph Lofthouse's seed, you can see some of those who sell his seed here:
https://osseeds.org/seeds/

First reaction was eek. Not enough. This one though

https://givinggroundseeds.com/collections/vegetable-seeds?page=5

Offers quite a bit of Joseph's stuff.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #10 on: 2020-01-19, 03:42:53 PM »
My life is definitely in transition right now. I'm currently taking classes for 200 hour yoga teacher certification. I got rid of the bees and rabbits last fall. I planted some of my fields into grass just before the snow fell. I may plant more to grass in the spring. The last time that my garden was this small was in the 2009 growing season.

I love the work being done by Giving Ground Seeds. Julie, the owner shared fields with me for a few years, and helped with variety development. I am very proud of the work she is doing, and the varieties that she is maintaining.

https://www.snakeriverseeds.com/Snake River Seeds carries some of my beans, and a few other things that I didn't breed, but subjected to variety maintenance work.

Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds carries Astronomy Domini Sweet Corn.

Experimental Farm Network volunteered to distribute my varieties in order to free up my time for teaching. I didn't send them the most unstable/interesting varieties, or things that are available only in small quantities.

Resilient Seeds offers a few varieties not found elsewhere.

I'm currently working on putting together 7 complete archive copies of my garden. I intend to include in them: everything I'm currently working on. Also many things that I have worked on and never released, or even wrote much about. Experimental things. Finished varieties. Botanical samples that can't be sold because of low germination, etc. I haven't decided on a price tag for them yet, perhaps around $300. I've distributed about 5 of those per year for the past 5 years, and some of those varieties are likely to find their way into seed catalogs over the next few years.

The promiscuous tomato project occupies more of my time and attention with each passing year. We are doing a winter grow out in a warmer climate. World Tomato Society asked me to be their ambassador. I am writing articles for them. They are sending me to conferences to advocate for promiscuous tomatoes. I have a lot of seed from the promiscuous project. I need to figure out how to share it in the way that brings the most benefit to the world. Current collaborators, and people that have contributed to the project in the past are definitely highest priority for seed sharing.

Then there are a whole bunch of non-glamorous stuff that should be done to enhance the genetic diversity of the promiscuous tomato population. In the long term, that's the most important work, but how to I ask someone to do that kind of labor knowing that the fruits in the first few generations are going taste bleck?

How do I screen for people that might actually grow out a crop and return seed?

« Last Edit: 2020-01-19, 03:48:07 PM by Joseph Lofthouse »

William S.

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #11 on: 2020-01-19, 11:25:08 PM »

Then there are a whole bunch of non-glamorous stuff that should be done to enhance the genetic diversity of the promiscuous tomato population. In the long term, that's the most important work, but how to I ask someone to do that kind of labor knowing that the fruits in the first few generations are going taste bleck?


I've been thinking about this conundrum and its part of why I am so focused on the Big Hill x W4 F2 grow out for 2020. It has a higher potential to produce a higher percentage of elite or perhaps tasty individuals. Which makes me feel like I am not doing the important genetic diversity work...

However I have this further thought. If we stabilize a tasty strain even if it is a little short on S alleles but still functional. Couldn't we use the tasty strain as a tool to inject a healthy dose of tastiness into the non-tasty but more S allele (and other genes) rich populations?

Like lets say we grew out 50 pure habrochaites plant but surrounded each of those plants with the hypothetical tasty strain. Should be able to produce a 50% hybrid population but one that has far more habrochaites in it. Continue this process of genetic swamping another generation or so, then stabilize. Hopefully acquiring S alleles and other genetic diversity in the process?

Another thought is, there exist a few high percentage wild stable strains of non-promiscuous tomato. We are also likely to produce some more of those as byproducts- like 2018's Fairy Hollow. We might be able to use those as future crossing partners with S. allele tomatoes or even some of the more edible wilds like pimpinillifolium, galapagense, and cheesemanii to produce high genetic diversity S. allele tomatoes. Like say we want a new S allele from Habrochaites- we might be able to package that into a mostly cheesemanii package, and then cross it back into the general population.

Also wonder how many S alleles we really need?

Also separately I wonder about compatibility of S alleles from multiple S allele species. Like if my bridge Arcanum accessions ever come through and what's really going on with S alleles from both habrochaites and penellii? Would we be better off with separate populations for each S. allele species?

Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Nicollas

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #12 on: 2020-01-20, 04:38:13 AM »
Joseph's work available in EFN : https://store.experimentalfarmnetwork.org/collections/lofthouse

So no source for your promiscous tomato seeds available if i'm correct ?

Lauren

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #13 on: 2020-01-23, 07:34:51 PM »
I haven't worked with specific varieties for years.

This year I'll grow out a random selection of random hybrids and keep seeds from the best that survives. I'll probably do some deliberate crosses, but for the most part the tomato project is on the back burner while I focus on other things.

William S.

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Re: 2020 tomato plans
« Reply #14 on: 2020-01-23, 08:01:25 PM »
Spent way to much time on Google Earth pro after watching a webinar on growing tomato seed crops that said 150 foot foot spacing. Think I can fit 7 because the habrochaites and arcanum won't mix.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days