Author Topic: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool  (Read 561 times)

William S.

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http://mushroomsblog.blogspot.com/2016/12/tomatoes-that-occasionally-outbreed.html?m=1

Link to Alan Kapuler's article on ocassionally out breeding tomatoes. I remember back when seeds of change was cool and independant Alan was their plant breeder.

I grew Alan's Golden Tressette for the first time this year. Of course their was some variation with and without a blue blush. It was exserted of course.

Joseph Lofthouse developed his Big Hill tomato in this vein. Looking for open flowers. It is reliably so.

Exserted flowers is now a trait I really look for in my garden. Joseph wrote about it and got me started looking. I'm finding it to be a handy tool, just look for the hybrids, then save seed and look for the segregates that have exsertion. Nice to have a few packets of the F2's marked as exserted. I'm sure they'll lead to future discoveries.

Joseph has a even bigger plan with self incompatible tomatoes. I think it will work too, but the exserted trait is handy on its own now.
« Last Edit: 2019-12-17, 12:26:28 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Diane Whitehead

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #1 on: 2019-12-17, 12:34:28 PM »
Thank you for that article.  Last year I grew lots of dwarfs and all the late blight resistant types I could buy with the intention of crossing them.  I didn't make any crosses.  If I still had the eyesight I had when I first hybridized 70 years ago, I could do it easily.  So next year, I'll grow hypertresses  snuggled up close to LB resistant ones and dwarfs and  let the tomatoes cross themselves.

Diane
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
cool mediterranean climate  warm dry summers, mild wet winters,  70 cm rain,   sandy soil

Kai Duby

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #2 on: 2019-12-23, 05:38:59 PM »
I worked on a farm this year that grew lots of Johnnys tomato varieties and I noticed that a lot of them had exserted stigmas. I don't know if the varieties were specifically from the Johnnys breeders but, whatever the source, it seems they used the exserted trait.

The varieties that certainly had exserted stigmas:

- Prudens Purple
- Pink Berkeley Tiedye
- Striped German

These are all rather large, long season varieties but figured I'd list them for later reference.
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William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #3 on: 2019-12-24, 09:27:27 AM »
Thank you for that article.  Last year I grew lots of dwarfs and all the late blight resistant types I could buy with the intention of crossing them.  I didn't make any crosses.  If I still had the eyesight I had when I first hybridized 70 years ago, I could do it easily.  So next year, I'll grow hypertresses  snuggled up close to LB resistant ones and dwarfs and  let the tomatoes cross themselves.

Diane

I was fairly impressed with my one Lizzano F2 plant for shortness of season. Would like to cross it with Big Hill perhaps.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #4 on: 2020-02-06, 07:36:07 PM »
One thing to think about is direction of gene flow. In a garden like mine with self incompatible penellii and habrochaites and crosses. Exserted varieties of domestic will uptake pollen from the self incompatibles but not receive. Closed domestic tomatoes will similarly only be pollen donors.

Once tasty self incompatible tomato varieties are realized they will only be at risk of contamination by non tasty habrochaites and penellii because they should not receive pollen from domestics. However exserted domestics will still be able to receive including the self incompatibility.

So exserted domestics are the universal pollen recipient when working with either inserted domestics or self incompatible types and potentially useful either way.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #5 on: 2020-06-23, 10:14:40 PM »
During the workweek I am at my parents apartment. I brought seven of my tomatoes here. 5 are blooming. I was checking for exsertion. Exserted orange check. Blue gold ambrosia check. Then a surprise. Sweet cherriette = Exsertion, this has to be due to wet feet in a self watering pot, probably will stop as the plant matures. Blue bicolor not exserted though grandparents were a little.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Andrew Barney

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #6 on: 2020-06-30, 08:11:10 AM »
I worked on a farm this year that grew lots of Johnnys tomato varieties and I noticed that a lot of them had exserted stigmas. I don't know if the varieties were specifically from the Johnnys breeders but, whatever the source, it seems they used the exserted trait.

The varieties that certainly had exserted stigmas:

- Prudens Purple
- Pink Berkeley Tiedye
- Striped German

These are all rather large, long season varieties but figured I'd list them for later reference.

Im not surprised the pink berkly tie die is on that list.  I believe it was developed at wild boar farms from natural bee pollination like most of the colorful striped varieties on that farm!

Andrew Barney

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #7 on: 2020-06-30, 08:13:04 AM »
Alan's Peace Seeds tomato varieties have always been interesting. If you haven't grown his other multi-flor tomatoes I recommend you try them! I haven't checked if peace Seeds is still running,  but peace seedlings by his daughter should be.

William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #8 on: 2020-06-30, 12:26:47 PM »
Personally now I have ~5 exserted strains, it seems logical to me to just keep planting them together for a few years. Probably end up with more. That's not even including the obligate out crossing project!
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Andrew Barney

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Garrett Schantz

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #10 on: 2020-08-19, 06:20:28 PM »
Unsure if Peace Seeds is still around, but there is a post on the blog from December 2019. It also includes something similar to the article that William posted in the "Tomatoes section".
https://peaceseedslive.blogspot.com/2016/12/peace-seeds-2020-list.html http://peaceseedlingsseeds.blogspot.com/

PeaceSeeds has a few wild species it seems like. Peacevine Cherry Vine Tomato, which I'm pretty sure is exerted - also has some interesting notes about it. Red Centiflor Hypertress Cherry also seems fun - only on Peaceseedlings. Black Centiflor Cherry Vine Tomato apparently has late blight resistance and purple striping - I am unsure if this one is exerted as it was bred from someone in the UK using the Red Centiflor, but it would be nice to have something with late blight resistance in an exerted population. I get a lot of late blight towards the end of the season, so it would be easy to screen for it as well. Both are mail order only, they would probably get more sales if a online form existed considering they have some unusual / good seeds available.

Andrew Barney

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #11 on: 2020-08-19, 07:51:24 PM »
That is interesting. I think peace seeds is still around or at least peace seedlings, though the main website is a bit rough.

That is interesting. I grew the red and yellow centerflor tomatoes years ago. Very interesting. Never knew they were bred from S. habrochiates. Sounds interesting with the stripes...

William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #12 on: 2020-08-30, 07:26:52 PM »
This is fun, so last year I grew a clump of Golden Tressette plants bred by Alan Kapuler. They have the exserted trait. One plant had a little blue on the fruits so I saved them seperately. Clump grew by a exserted current Solanum pimpinillifolium Andrew Barney sent seed for. 

So what I think I have here is the segregating results of a cross that happened in Alan's garden plus one cross from my garden last year.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian silty clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #13 on: 2020-09-10, 12:19:20 AM »
Forgot that I tried planting a silvery fir tree tomato in the garden. Ultimately failed, started it a bit too late and fungus gnats were in one of the soil mixes I was using - killed off a lot of other plants too. One survived and put out around 6 fruits, had more flowers - but it died early on. Didn't really put it in the main garden. Just so happened to put it near my exerted pimp. Forgot about it after it died. I moved exerted pimp seedlings with large cotyledons, thinking they might have crossed with a domestic. First set of leaves came on, looking at slender spiked leaves - one side is flat looking though. Thinking they crossed... The cotyledons all have a sort of spike as well. Can't remember if silvery fir's did that as well.
 Noticed a few other odd leaves so far, might post some images tomorrow or once the plants are bigger. The leaves weren't uniform on single plants with the exerted pimp parent. Some of the crosses I am seeing seeing look odd. Won't be able to tell if any are habrochaites crosses until they get to a decent size. Granted some plants are showing visible hairs on the leaves, which is promising I suppose. Mostly looking to try and get a highly exerted stigma with pimpinellifolium genes. Any wild species that are able to cross with it should be easy enough to screen for, wild species are mostly all exerted as well. Meaning I will just have to select for stigma size after a certain point. When I get something with good taste disease resistance - maybe leaf - calyx type - seed color, I can cross it with a domestic just for larger size. I could just backcross if I lost something while attempting to get a beefsteak trait or larger size. The Big Hill x wild exerted crosses already look promising from what I have seen posts about. Smaller fruited F1s and so on would be easier to handle inside during the winter though. Allowing a mass population to go "wild" a bit on a property could eventually lead to a really well adapted plant.
 Oh yeah habrochaites have buds again, along with pimpinellifolium. First frost in October. Hoping I get a few fruit, even if under ripe. Might cause some changes for next generations seed. Bees refuse to visit the pimpinellifolium due to the small flower size, unless the habrochaites directly next to it is flowering as well. Could use this to screen out crosses more efficiently in the future.