Author Topic: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool  (Read 3343 times)

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #15 on: 2021-04-07, 03:31:20 PM »
I saw the Exserted Tiger on there a day or so ago along with Big Hill.

They also have Payette which has Habrochaites / Peruvianum ancestry - low percentages though.

Was also looking at Sasha's Altai due to the cold hardiness.

I might wait until next year for those - already have moat of my grow light space taken up. Payette and Sasha's Altai would be fun to mix into exserted populations, they are also early enough that I could get a decent harvest from them. Either buying seeds towards the end of the year or beginning of the next.

I have Pruden's Purple started, I will check if this source has exserted plants sometimes.

William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #16 on: 2021-04-07, 04:18:32 PM »
Yep that's why I grew some of the Payette for them. It's an interesting variety. Very Intermountain adapted. Seems to be a true dwarf like the dwarf project dwarfs with smaller size, sturdy stems, and rugose foliage. All also in the original description. Not exserted though. Resistant to curly top a disease common in the intermountain area spread by leaf hoppers.
« Last Edit: 2022-06-05, 09:14:38 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #17 on: 2021-06-28, 10:18:27 PM »
Checking out the exsertion on the back steps. Exserted Tiger, it's mother Blue Ambrosia (a strain of it I selected for exsertion), and exserted orange all have good exsertion. The two tressette descendents don't at the moment. Big Hill would but it seems to be done flowering for the moment.

I think exsertion must be strongly and carefully selected for. Though in F2 mixes coming from it I think it's a minor component trait it has a big impact. What would happen in a diverse 100% exserted population? To make such a grex might be possible for me now with just waiting longer to out plant. Then trimming off any contaminated flowers when outplanting. Not 100% convinced I would want to create such a diverse exserted grex. There is perhaps value in exserted tomatoes as more of a continuous intersection with other types. Like a middle row between closed flowered types and promiscuous types.
« Last Edit: 2022-06-05, 09:14:16 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #18 on: 2021-07-09, 07:27:38 PM »
I have a lot of new tomato flowers today because I was gone at my botany job and it has been days of 90 degree F temps. Also the direct seeded and slow to flower transplants are starting to flower. So amongst promiscuous project tomatoes the majority are not exserted or not much and have no tomatoes yet. Some are exserted and tomato formation is lagging. Those may be truly obligate outcrossing.

However there are two that are beautifully exserted and immediately set fruits. I suspect they are selfers and or maybe even like Siletz and have that sort of seed free early tomato production. If so kind of intriguing.

Also intriguing the first flowers of LA2329 are not exserted. That could mean they crossed last year! Yaay but also grr because not exserted. Note: two days later new flowers from additional plants are exserted.
« Last Edit: 2022-06-05, 09:13:59 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #19 on: 2021-07-12, 06:55:56 PM »
SunSugar has habrochaites-like exsertion. Much better than the slightly exserted pimpnellifoium types.

Probably going to pollinate some flowers with Husky Red Cherry pollen. I quite like the indeterminate dwarf characteristic. The plant seems to support itself - quite nice.
The fruit sizes are basically the same, I have also read that Husky Red Cherry is mostly a stable variety, very little variation.
Basically want a orange exserted dwarf.

Afterwards I will probably cross the best offspring with Weight in Gold. Fuzzy fruit, cold tolerance - high brix.

In the end I ultimately want a fuzzy, sweet - nutritious, disease resistant - early cold tolerant exserted dwarf.

If other hybrids turn out well, I will probably mix them into the group as well.


Tami G Grape is growing right next to SunSugar - probably going to get a bunch of crosses with it. Suppose I could select for exserted grape tomatoes or something.

I will also attempt to pollinate SunSugar with some Wildlings - Habrochaites - Chmielewsky - Purple Smudge - Wild Gem. 

The Chmielewsky - Purple Smudge - Wild Gem crosses would just be to introduce exsertion without using habrochaites. This way I won't need to emasculate the domestics - the exposed stigmas end up getting scorched outdoors anyway. Unsure if Chmielewsky will even hybridize well with SunSugar.

Another goal here - besides exsertion would be to add earliness to some of these varieties.
« Last Edit: 2021-07-12, 07:06:46 PM by Garrett Schantz »

Andrew Barney

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Re: Exserted tomatoes ocassional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #20 on: 2022-02-21, 02:11:30 PM »
I worked on a farm this year that grew lots of Johnnys tomato varieties and I noticed that a lot of them had exserted stigmas. I don't know if the varieties were specifically from the Johnnys breeders but, whatever the source, it seems they used the exserted trait.

The varieties that certainly had exserted stigmas:

- Prudens Purple
- Pink Berkeley Tiedye
- Striped German

These are all rather large, long season varieties but figured I'd list them for later reference.

That's interesting. I believe the last two were bred from Wild Boar Farms? If so, I'm pretty sure most of those really colorful crosses were almost all bee-facilitated crosses. So it would make sense that from that farm those varieties are more promiscuous than most varieties.

William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #21 on: 2022-02-21, 02:29:34 PM »
Just poked around the net a little Pruden's purple would be your classic heirloom potato leaf and striped german is also an heirloom.

Pink Berkeley tie dye is definitely Brad Gate's.
« Last Edit: 2022-06-05, 09:13:35 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #22 on: 2022-06-03, 07:30:25 PM »
I have more tomatoes blooming. Early days yet, but I like to look at the blossoms for exsertion. I found some in wild currant from Peru from HR seeds which I think Garrett has previously reported.

I found a few blooms amongst MMS x unk plants and given the possibilities for unk I thought it likely they would be exserted but none of the three or so plants did. That could be evidence for unk in this case being some of the inserted promiscuous project plants as the others were big hill and exserted tiger. Though who knows?

Amongst the Promiscuous x LA2329 hybrids perhaps the best plant in terms of vigour and rapid growth is blooming already and oddly the flowers are not exserted though the stigma does come to the tip of the anther cone. This is strange because the mother was very exserted and LA2329 is exserted though not as prominently as some other strains. I suspect also it is far too early to attract bumblebees which seem to still be dominated by the very large queens and I doubt they are looking for pollen yet like they are later in the summer. Though also it is the only LA2329 hybrid to be blooming yet so I doubt any pollination will occur. It is very early for LA2329 flowers so the promiscuous side of things has added a lot of earliness.

I have a plant in the peruvianum section that looks a bit pennellii like in the flowers. I wonder if it grew from my saved seed and a pennellii pollinated its mother. It does not have pennellii like leaves. If it does have pennellii heritage I hope it sets seed but am not growing out pennellii or early generation high percentage pennellii hybrids this year so it will have to reproduce if it can without a pennellii pollen source. 
« Last Edit: 2022-06-05, 09:13:19 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #23 on: 2022-06-19, 06:02:41 PM »
I think someone shared an article sometime ago that with heat exsertion can be too much for good pollination. Last spring / early summer their was a heat wave. This spring was cold. Anyway I seem to have less exsertion this year even in the same lines. I wonder if that will change with warmer weather in July and August. It seems like some are still exserted but to a lesser degree. As the degree of exsertion seems to correlate to how much they outcross that seems like this year will have fewer crosses. Maybe not zero though.

It does seem like Big Hill has more reliable exsertion than does Mission Mountain Sunrise. Mission Mountain Morning being a cross between the two might be segregating for whatever traits make Big Hill more reliable. However, most plants that have bloomed so far seem to have modest exsertion to slightly inserted of both MMM and MMS. If I find a potato leaf plant with notably more exsertion I will of course mark it and save more seed from it because it will almost certainly have a higher outcrossing rate.

I am sort of curious to keep crossing my various source strains of exsertion to see how they interact. 
« Last Edit: 2022-06-19, 11:39:39 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William S.

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Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
« Reply #24 on: 2022-06-25, 10:07:43 PM »
I found this evening I think two MMM F2 or MMS x BH F2 with nice exsertion of the stigma from the Big Hill side of the equation no doubt. They are in the diversity garden crossing block so there is a wide variety of tomatoes they may cross with. However, these things usually partially self as well. Sp I suspect my next generation of tomatoes in the project is forthcoming! It will be interesting to see if one of the two has good anthocyanin skin. I only got one of them marked. It is in this really tightly packed row I planted close together to get some plants out of the greenhouse early. It has a "The One" right beside it but also its half sibling MMS x Unknown. Should be interesting to save seed from. Judging from the general lack of exsertion amongst MMS this spring it is more important than I thought for a while given the good exsertion of the mother plant last year, to get MMM bred into the more reliable exsertion of Big Hill and thereby have a really awesome potato leaf mother system.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days